After about five or six of these idiotic "MMOG = Grouping" posts, I cannot hold my tongue (fingers?) any longer.
Grouping is ONE way of interacting with others, not the ONLY way. Got it? If not, continue on. 1) Chatting with someone in chat channels IS interaction. Many times more interaction than being stuck in a group on a mission, too busy to give someone else the time of day. Others are waiting, after all. 2) Helping a new person find that MOB they need for a starter quest IS interaction. 3) Buying/Selling/Trading items with other people IS interacting. 4) And the MOST important reason... MMOGs come alive when other players are there. No matter how many times I play SW:KotOR, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play Morrowind, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play... I think you get the point. If not, I'll explain further. Can people please start getting it through their heads that "teaming/grouping/raiding" is not the be all, end all to MMOGs? One final try... just in case. *In school, does one ONLY interact with kids in the same study group? Even spread this out to same class. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *At work, does one ONLY interact with memebrs on the same project team? Even spread that out to people in nearby cubicles? If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *At church, does one ONLY interact with people on the same committee? Even spread that out to a table at an after church coffee. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *In the community, does one ONLY interact with their neighbors? Even spread this out to school district. If not, think about how other ways to interact with people in this venue. I like teaming/grouping, do not get me wrong. It is when I HAVE to depend upon others for my tgame enjoyment that I get put off of a game. I just knew there would be "Why play MMOGs?" posts when I read that first post. Now, I find it rather ironic that I read quite a bit of "fear" from people who prefer grouping/teaming over solo play. They site WoW as a prime example of what happens when people are not FORCED to team. They actually prefer to play solo! Imagine that! So, if given a chance, the average(?) MMOG player actually prefers soloing over grouping? I read fear, big time, from people who complain about WoW's lack of forced grouping. Now, they turn around and post about MMOG means grouping. No. It does not. It means "interacting with others", in the many, varied and wondrous ways possible, including (but not exclusively) grouping. Is this any more clear yet? Can we please cut back on these kinds of posts now?
If you didn't play UO I owe you a nickel.
YES, to reiterate, if you ever played ultima online (at least in the old days) you spent a large amount of your time doing your own thing, and a portion of time with your guild or pvp crew and a portion of your time just helping out others doin 'whatever'. I can't count the amount of times I stoped to help a newbie tie his shoes.....no time now! Being in a party should not be a requirement to advance. I realize this is a somwhat difficult proposition because of the years and years of sony style forced grouping many of us have become acustomed to....but there was once upon a time when players could choose their path.
I don't know why there isnt a MMO title out there past , present or in Dev that hasn't figured this out: Build a freakin scalable engine and make like 30000 different dungeons, get some from the players...etc and implement it into an instancing system in a MMO. Offer some group content in whatever and common areas for all players to interact.
If I can make NWN maps on my pc in 45mins surely some game title with a 30 million $ budget outa be able to figure out how to merge MMO with that dungeon crawl feel.
Are MMOGs only for group/raiders? Is that the simple-minded definition we're supposed to swallow?
What if the current "cliche" was that every single game required 100-person raids to advance a level? If MMOGs are all about the GROUP, the almighty holy raid, then why not deny level increases unless you QUEST for them with a minimum of 100 people? That sure fits in with the MMOG idea some of you think MMOG means.
Used to be television was black and white (I remember them) with just two or three channels that barely came in on the tv antenna. How would you feel being forced to watch that garbage forever, with no chance of color or more channels or cable with 300+ channels just because some know-it-alls claim that television is "black and white with an antenna consisting of three channels and if you don't like it, go for walks in the park?"
Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Some of us want variety and choice. If all the games out there are group-group-group and raid-raid-raid, but none of them are "sweeping" and retaining looky-loos, then maybe some company with balls can try something different. It certainly won't hurt you group=all-the-time raid types - hell, you have 84,797 games out there that "uniquely" focus on grouping. I'm expecting the next "big," unique grouping game to require you to group just to name your character.
Fion - I tried Eve. Not bad, but without getting out of my ship and walking around on a planet, I felt I was a ship. Not the same for me and not too immersive. But a good game overall. CoH required grouping in areas and especially if you were going to do the missions. I guess you could street-sweep solo all the way up, but that takes more than half the game away. SWG was a total waste of time for me. I hate Poke-Wars. AO was very nice, but my wife and I found that around level 75, the mobs were so tough that healing was required - and more than just the med-kits/first-aid kits. Otherwise, AO was soloable up to the high 50s. If they've changed that in the last 3 years, I'm not aware of it.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Originally posted by Rekindle If you didn't play UO I owe you a nickel.
::holds out hand for his nickel:: I missed out on the UO boat. I had no idea what online gaming was all about back then. I did not climb aboard this boat until EQ caught me in 2001. Sounds like UO may have been fun at one time.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Looking down the pipe at all the new games coming out very little is new and innovative. I really don't understand how some of these smaller titles expect to go up against the likes of EQ and WoW with the same offering. Three months after launch some devs and execs will be sitting around a table in an office shaking their head wondering why they didn't have the next great hit. I swear, I want some of what the marketing departments are smoking in some of these companies. In the end the answer is simple.
Right now, as I look down the pipe at whats coming next, after already burning out on WoW and EQ for the most part, I see Vanguard. If someone had showed me Vanguard without any background information, I'd be saying 'woop de do" again. However, the hopes are on Vanguard for me because of one name: Brad McQuaid.
Many think that Vanguard is going to be the saaaaame old recipe-game. I, however, think that Brad and co. are smart. Brad and co were the REAL authors of EQ. EQ was his baby and the soul left EQ2 (and EQ1) when the orignal team left SOE.
If Brad and team are smart they are reading on sites like this and they will see that some people really connected with zones like Mistmoore castle, and Kithicor. I mean, think about it. In the PoP days of EQ you stood in one place for hours and hours and hours and grinded 65! levels. Yet, people like me still remember places like High Pass Keep. There's a spirit there, a flavor that has yet to be repeated and this is whats lacking from the current MMO offering.
Regardless of the mechanics of Vanguard, my hopes are on the real father of Everquest to turn out a truly innovative hit. Many say Vanguard is an EQ2 clone. I'd wager Vanguard, in some ways, will be Brad's vision of what EQ2 should have been. And 30 months later, he's going to say "told you so" to his former employer....thats just my feeling.
Sorry for the digression, but my intent was to show that maybe there's some hope out there. The next reaaaaaly cool game wont have a Blizzard or SOE label on it, its going to be from someone who really knows how to clear a new path rather then sticking with old faithful reicpies.
They won't be forced to group per se, but grouping is definitely encouraged. Our designers are populating the world by dividing areas into three groups: casual, group, and raid. The majority of content will be group oriented, because the 'core' gamer (note I didn't say 'hard core' necessarily) is our primary target audience.
This tells me that Brad thinks the "core" gamer is one who continues to buy all these games coming out, but dropping them after a few months. In essence, he is right, but he is assuming that "core" means "I wanna group and raid." So, Brad is just going to serve us up more of the same old crap, just done up prettier with a few tweaks.
You can dress crap up in a really pretty wedding dress with a veil of pearls, but when you take it to bed after the wedding and get the dress off, it's still crap.
I don't want a game with a "slice" of solo. I want a game where I can interact with people for 90+% of the content and never have to group, unless I feel like it. NINETY-plus percent. Not 4%.
Edit: with a billion F***ING games out there being "group/raid" oriented, and few holding much retention, doesn't anyone think we have room for just ONE solo-oriented game? What will the groupers care? They have a BILLION games they can choose from. WE solo-oriented people have NO choice.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
So what if you had a game that was MMO type that you could solo everything?
Or maybe Asheron's Call 1? Actually you can pretty much solo anything in AC1 except for major bosses and the harder monsters in the Valley of Death. Even good higher level mages can take one (maybe more) virindi paradox by themselves.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Well, Kaos, it may not constitute being a Dungeon Master, but Hero's Journey I think is going to have quests and events organized and run by game masters. For events, that wouldn't be a first, but for personal quests it certainly would as far as I know. The only thing I dislike about the game is the possibility of instancing. Other than that, the character customization seems like it's going to be pretty dang good.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
When I was playing Gemstone III and Asheron's Call 1 back in the old days, I watched someone playing EQ1 and it looked incredibly boring to me. After that I watched my older brother play EQII and it still looked like nothing new. I also heard that it encourages grouping a lot in EQII so that pushed me even further away. Last of all, I watched him play WoW and thought it was boring and the graphics turned me off (also the no dropping of items lest they become destroyed).
Anyway, I went ahead and bought WoW because I was bored, but it ended up that I played for like a day or two and ended in canceling my subscription. I never liked doing quests as a sole involvement in any game and I never liked following a certain path that developers wanted you and the other 10,000 subscribers to follow as you went from newbie to 1337 haxx0rZ... I like complete freedom to do whatever I want if I put my mind to it. I don't like instancing, I don't like repeatable and simple quests, I shun methodical tasks that are named quests, I hate small worlds with strict paths that you have to follow, poor graphics, no imagination, and I hate large worlds with sparse populations.
As for the grouping thing, I'm tired of people using the clich
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
After about five or six of these idiotic "MMOG = Grouping" posts, I cannot hold my tongue (fingers?) any longer.
Grouping is ONE way of interacting with others, not the ONLY way. Got it? If not, continue on. 1) Chatting with someone in chat channels IS interaction. Many times more interaction than being stuck in a group on a mission, too busy to give someone else the time of day. Others are waiting, after all. 2) Helping a new person find that MOB they need for a starter quest IS interaction. 3) Buying/Selling/Trading items with other people IS interacting. 4) And the MOST important reason... MMOGs come alive when other players are there. No matter how many times I play SW:KotOR, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play Morrowind, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play... I think you get the point. If not, I'll explain further.
Can people please start getting it through their heads that "teaming/grouping/raiding" is not the be all, end all to MMOGs?
One final try... just in case. *In school, does one ONLY interact with kids in the same study group? Even spread this out to same class. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *At work, does one ONLY interact with memebrs on the same project team? Even spread that out to people in nearby cubicles? If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *At church, does one ONLY interact with people on the same committee? Even spread that out to a table at an after church coffee. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue. *In the community, does one ONLY interact with their neighbors? Even spread this out to school district. If not, think about how other ways to interact with people in this venue.
I like teaming/grouping, do not get me wrong. It is when I HAVE to depend upon others for my tgame enjoyment that I get put off of a game. I just knew there would be "Why play MMOGs?" posts when I read that first post.
Now, I find it rather ironic that I read quite a bit of "fear" from people who prefer grouping/teaming over solo play. They site WoW as a prime example of what happens when people are not FORCED to team. They actually prefer to play solo! Imagine that! So, if given a chance, the average(?) MMOG player actually prefers soloing over grouping? I read fear, big time, from people who complain about WoW's lack of forced grouping. Now, they turn around and post about MMOG means grouping. No. It does not. It means "interacting with others", in the many, varied and wondrous ways possible, including (but not exclusively) grouping.
Is this any more clear yet? Can we please cut back on these kinds of posts now?
Best post I have read in a long time, becasue I agree with it so much. Says everything I was going to say on the subject.
Totally agree with the quality of that post. For me, UO was the creme de le creme and everything has been downhill ever since. I wish I could go back hehehe
UO didn't force grouping on you, but you could choose to if you wanted/needed to. I spent 90% of my time doing my own thing and %10 interacting in one fashion or another and they didnt even have LFG tags!
The type of MMO I would really like to see is, like everquest but more skilled based as in twitch first person shooter style of gameplay. NOT Skill points, NO Random number generator, and most of all, NO Point and click to control your characte either. And leveling should not matter. More levels should give you a larger range of equipment instead of better ones.
---------------------- Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
i havent read the whole thread, but ill tell the OP why we always have cookie-cutter games nowadays.
Because of EVERQUEST. uo came out, uo was fun, EQ come out, EQ was a drug. people got hooked, and sony made millions. We have only had eq-clones ever since.
Games who base themselves on old uo are rare - wish would have been a modern version of uo - and games like irth are trying to do the same - eve also have a little of that UO feel to it (strangely enough). But eq was so successful that everyone is trying to grap a piece of the pie.
As for wow, eq2, AC2, etc etc... they are all EQ clones with levels and restrictive classes and "i die and dont loose anything". I HATE LEVELS AND CLASSES. Oh im an orc mage, how cool - oh youre an orc cleric, wow... geesh.
Games like irth - where you use a skill, and ythat particular skill raises - and youre are not restricted by classes (meaning you can train ANY skill WHENEVER YOU WANT), are the types of games i go for. too bad irth isnt ready yet though. while a game like that comes out, ima keep playing uo - for the memories
There's a zillion "grouping-oriented" games out there already. Where is the choice? How about just one solo-oriented game where grouping is an option, not a requirement?
If you went to a video game store, and all they sold was Sega Genesis machines and games for them, but you had X-Box or a PC, wouldn't you feel left out when they tell you: "hey, all games are Sega, If you don't like it, go suck a55 because everyone knows that gaming means Sega."
Pretty stupid, no?
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
YEah I am tired of several things, For one... why should pvp be so limited to certain class choices! They need to seriously work with making it completely balanced. It sounds far fetched but there must be a way! For example, Ragnarok online i thought i was going to go mad if I didnt get excactly the right build on say my Fire Wizard, or On WoW I was so worried about playing a night elf and being a shadow priest when the undead had the clear ultimate advantage.
People who didnt go reading forums for hours never got to know that their class sucked until they grinded to 60/99 or whatever the max is.
Nexustk had a good idea about the pvp system, lets go ahead and make it where you can level infinately, past 99 you buy stats with experience. Problem is some Losers sat there and account shared their lives away until a warrior named Calmwind was litterally years ahead of almost everyone. This guy must have never missed a full day, and there were a group of poets(priests/clerics) who followed him to heal his massive HP all of the time. These people had no life and since they didnt they got rewarded to one hit people!
Guildwars had a perfect idea, let people jump into pvp and not level grind! But the problem was that they instanced! Might as well be diablo! Theres no chance to wander through the woods and find a person who needs help from a goblin and heroicly rescue them.. even so its never quite as good as it seems in your mind.
FFXI Now that game was horrible! It didnt have pvp! Still doesnt have any REAL PvP if you ask me! It just was a chatroom where 500 people had to go do cheap lame quests together every night and had to be within the same levels! GOD Forbid if you went to get a group and your race/job configuration wasnt perfect! Might as well leave a program on to say "LFG lvl 25ranger/13Warrior" or some crap like that and went to sleep!
Oh and what about getting funds! Jeebuz! MMO's should pay US for our time! Its a full time job people! Like FFXI, to get a small amount of money you had to spend a Fortune in irl work time people! I mean to get the moat carp you needed fishing for example to get 100k would take you around a full week! I could have made minimum over 3-400 dollars if I spent the excact hours on minimum wage not to calculate overtime which is 2 1/2 times where im from!
Back on Nexus it was the same way! WoW Was ridiculous because to ever dream of being anything you had to focus hours and hours and hours on that game! Especially when they incorporated Battlegrounds!
Starwars Galaxies i played only long enough to hear the insane horror stories on how long it takes to get yourself to be a jedi! I figured I would just go get a black belt in karate instead irl! :P
All of this stuff for what? So your character doesnt turn out perfect or you find out your not good at pvp or even pve! OR something in life takes over!
Truth is this is why I miss Graal! Back when it was in its pre pay to play stages still considered a beta even (for years though) That game while simple and ugly had the best pvp system ever! It was all skill based, and you could mess with the settings to make the lag a certain way and beat people! If your lag was just right you could be a regular Samurai X Dissapearing and appearing behind them having slashed them in half muahahahaha! No real economy but definately had all sort of exciting RP abilities even though it was mostly an action game!
I'm sure it won't be SOE - they're too cookie-cutter.
What company will be the first to step up with the balls to make a solo MMO with optional grouping elements?
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Have to keep my eye on it. Was a little vague about grouping/soloing, and the idea of main/regular characters made me itch, but it looks well worth watching!
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Ya know I love them mainly because I have superhuman twitching powers! But I think even moreso you have to admit it builds your overall hand eye coordination over time which is useful even in irl situations!
I am personally very very excited about the Chronicle! I bet it will be an awesome game! We need the whole conquest feel in mmo's, and we need small player made groups to be able to form masive armies and conquer areas! Fight for territory! Build on that territory! We need a good merc system as well! Bounty hunter system! All of that needs to be implimented!
Also Trading and so forth needs to be made more enjoyable! Merchant classes should come in several forms! We need a system like UO that allows physical showcasing of items in their personal shops! Even moreso a little more like NexusTK in their little market areas!
There needs to be more event action in each game! Legendary Items should be introduced that far surpass others that are one per server! Epic skills should be attained also one per server!
For example say I was in a game like world of warcraft and I had my lvl 60 human warrior out on a quest (one that is epic, and full of puzzles, that he could solo would be preferable), not just any quest! A Quest announced by the GM's in nothing more than a riddle! The prize could be anything! People travel from area to area hoping to find this! In the end I find a sword much like Excalibur that does massive damage far beyond other weapons! So good that if any other players wanted to combat him there would have to be some extreme technique involved and if he were really good he would be unstoppable!
Say theres another quest for Armor! or a Spell! An Ability! something they had in the game but didnt release to just everyone! That would make the game much more interesting! Sure it would overpower like one person here and there but it would allow for people to become Legendary! And whoever defeated that person with the bare minimum could be considered even more Legendary just based on skill! This also is why Twitch based combat is important because if we were playing WoW it would be an automatic victory if it were a warrior vs warrior whoever has such advanced equipment to the other would win because its just a bash for a bash!
Now not to glorify a dead game that never had much of anything that great in the first place! But it is a great example! Now Imagine playing Graal Online (or Zelda 3 for snes with a lot of people) and fighting that same battle!
The person with the skill, not the sword would win! Now I will agree WoW has some almost action elements but the truth is it still lacks true freedom.. its too turn based for me!
in my opinion if you like turn based lets make a game with a final fantasy console element! Instance people into battles and have the little menu pop up and play battle music! :P
Originally posted by Tithrielle If you wanna do everything by yourself go play a singleplayer game...
Ooohhhh, I got burned!! Wow, the wisdom in that statement! How come I never thought of that? Of course! I can go play an offline game and still craft and sell to people and talk to other people like I want to.... NOT.
If all you want are things you have to have 200+ people to accomplish, why don't you go join the army?
Sheesh... narrow-minded people.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Playing a lonewolf in a massive world full of people is not the same as playing a 1 player game, however it is fun to group SOME I just dont like being totally dependant on a group to kill something like FFXI for example.
I use a similar arguement about PVE, you might as well be playing a regular offline multiplayer game.. the point of people in an rpg is to have Intelligently and Creatively controlled enemies, guides, allies, etc. To Play an MMO for PVE only totally defeats the purpose which is why I never play games that are all PVE unless its just to try it for the theme. To me I might as well go get Baldurs Gate.. its the same thing.
Give us the choice to play the entire content of the game solo.
Give us the choice to sell our solo-crafted goods to other online players.
Give us the choice to talk to other online players.
Give us the choice to be a lone hero that doesn't need 200+ other players backing him up to take down a sewer rat.
Give us the choice to increase the risk and reward by grouping.
Give us the choice to rise all the way to the top on our own, via our own hard work and sweat.
Choices are good. I hear nothing but "go play an offline game" from people who hate choice. Hey, anti-choicers: you already have a BILLION F---ing games that require you to group to wipe your a55. One game that offers a choice won't hurt your little feelings.
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Comments
If you didn't play UO I owe you a nickel.
YES, to reiterate, if you ever played ultima online (at least in the old days) you spent a large amount of your time doing your own thing, and a portion of time with your guild or pvp crew and a portion of your time just helping out others doin 'whatever'. I can't count the amount of times I stoped to help a newbie tie his shoes.....no time now! Being in a party should not be a requirement to advance. I realize this is a somwhat difficult proposition because of the years and years of sony style forced grouping many of us have become acustomed to....but there was once upon a time when players could choose their path.
I don't know why there isnt a MMO title out there past , present or in Dev that hasn't figured this out: Build a freakin scalable engine and make like 30000 different dungeons, get some from the players...etc and implement it into an instancing system in a MMO. Offer some group content in whatever and common areas for all players to interact.
If I can make NWN maps on my pc in 45mins surely some game title with a 30 million $ budget outa be able to figure out how to merge MMO with that dungeon crawl feel.
Are MMOGs only for group/raiders? Is that the simple-minded definition we're supposed to swallow?
What if the current "cliche" was that every single game required 100-person raids to advance a level? If MMOGs are all about the GROUP, the almighty holy raid, then why not deny level increases unless you QUEST for them with a minimum of 100 people? That sure fits in with the MMOG idea some of you think MMOG means.
Used to be television was black and white (I remember them) with just two or three channels that barely came in on the tv antenna. How would you feel being forced to watch that garbage forever, with no chance of color or more channels or cable with 300+ channels just because some know-it-alls claim that television is "black and white with an antenna consisting of three channels and if you don't like it, go for walks in the park?"
Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Some of us want variety and choice. If all the games out there are group-group-group and raid-raid-raid, but none of them are "sweeping" and retaining looky-loos, then maybe some company with balls can try something different. It certainly won't hurt you group=all-the-time raid types - hell, you have 84,797 games out there that "uniquely" focus on grouping. I'm expecting the next "big," unique grouping game to require you to group just to name your character.
Fion - I tried Eve. Not bad, but without getting out of my ship and walking around on a planet, I felt I was a ship. Not the same for me and not too immersive. But a good game overall. CoH required grouping in areas and especially if you were going to do the missions. I guess you could street-sweep solo all the way up, but that takes more than half the game away. SWG was a total waste of time for me. I hate Poke-Wars. AO was very nice, but my wife and I found that around level 75, the mobs were so tough that healing was required - and more than just the med-kits/first-aid kits. Otherwise, AO was soloable up to the high 50s. If they've changed that in the last 3 years, I'm not aware of it.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
I missed out on the UO boat. I had no idea what online gaming was all about back then. I did not climb aboard this boat until EQ caught me in 2001. Sounds like UO may have been fun at one time.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Looking down the pipe at all the new games coming out very little is new and innovative. I really don't understand how some of these smaller titles expect to go up against the likes of EQ and WoW with the same offering. Three months after launch some devs and execs will be sitting around a table in an office shaking their head wondering why they didn't have the next great hit. I swear, I want some of what the marketing departments are smoking in some of these companies. In the end the answer is simple.
Right now, as I look down the pipe at whats coming next, after already burning out on WoW and EQ for the most part, I see Vanguard. If someone had showed me Vanguard without any background information, I'd be saying 'woop de do" again. However, the hopes are on Vanguard for me because of one name: Brad McQuaid.
Many think that Vanguard is going to be the saaaaame old recipe-game. I, however, think that Brad and co. are smart. Brad and co were the REAL authors of EQ. EQ was his baby and the soul left EQ2 (and EQ1) when the orignal team left SOE.
If Brad and team are smart they are reading on sites like this and they will see that some people really connected with zones like Mistmoore castle, and Kithicor. I mean, think about it. In the PoP days of EQ you stood in one place for hours and hours and hours and grinded 65! levels. Yet, people like me still remember places like High Pass Keep. There's a spirit there, a flavor that has yet to be repeated and this is whats lacking from the current MMO offering.
Regardless of the mechanics of Vanguard, my hopes are on the real father of Everquest to turn out a truly innovative hit. Many say Vanguard is an EQ2 clone. I'd wager Vanguard, in some ways, will be Brad's vision of what EQ2 should have been. And 30 months later, he's going to say "told you so" to his former employer....thats just my feeling.
Sorry for the digression, but my intent was to show that maybe there's some hope out there. The next reaaaaaly cool game wont have a Blizzard or SOE label on it, its going to be from someone who really knows how to clear a new path rather then sticking with old faithful reicpies.
I remember this when it comes to Vanguard:
This tells me that Brad thinks the "core" gamer is one who continues to buy all these games coming out, but dropping them after a few months. In essence, he is right, but he is assuming that "core" means "I wanna group and raid." So, Brad is just going to serve us up more of the same old crap, just done up prettier with a few tweaks.
You can dress crap up in a really pretty wedding dress with a veil of pearls, but when you take it to bed after the wedding and get the dress off, it's still crap.
I don't want a game with a "slice" of solo. I want a game where I can interact with people for 90+% of the content and never have to group, unless I feel like it. NINETY-plus percent. Not 4%.
Edit: with a billion F***ING games out there being "group/raid" oriented, and few holding much retention, doesn't anyone think we have room for just ONE solo-oriented game? What will the groupers care? They have a BILLION games they can choose from. WE solo-oriented people have NO choice.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
So what if you had a game that was MMO type that you could solo everything?
Or maybe Asheron's Call 1?
Actually you can pretty much solo anything in AC1 except for major bosses and the harder monsters in the Valley of Death. Even good higher level mages can take one (maybe more) virindi paradox by themselves.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Heros and D&D style DM's.
Well, Kaos, it may not constitute being a Dungeon Master, but Hero's Journey I think is going to have quests and events organized and run by game masters. For events, that wouldn't be a first, but for personal quests it certainly would as far as I know. The only thing I dislike about the game is the possibility of instancing. Other than that, the character customization seems like it's going to be pretty dang good.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
the likes of EQ and WoW with the same offering
When I was playing Gemstone III and Asheron's Call 1 back in the old days, I watched someone playing EQ1 and it looked incredibly boring to me. After that I watched my older brother play EQII and it still looked like nothing new. I also heard that it encourages grouping a lot in EQII so that pushed me even further away. Last of all, I watched him play WoW and thought it was boring and the graphics turned me off (also the no dropping of items lest they become destroyed).
Anyway, I went ahead and bought WoW because I was bored, but it ended up that I played for like a day or two and ended in canceling my subscription. I never liked doing quests as a sole involvement in any game and I never liked following a certain path that developers wanted you and the other 10,000 subscribers to follow as you went from newbie to 1337 haxx0rZ... I like complete freedom to do whatever I want if I put my mind to it. I don't like instancing, I don't like repeatable and simple quests, I shun methodical tasks that are named quests, I hate small worlds with strict paths that you have to follow, poor graphics, no imagination, and I hate large worlds with sparse populations.
As for the grouping thing, I'm tired of people using the clich
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Grouping is ONE way of interacting with others, not the ONLY way. Got it? If not, continue on.
1) Chatting with someone in chat channels IS interaction. Many times more interaction than being stuck in a group on a mission, too busy to give someone else the time of day. Others are waiting, after all.
2) Helping a new person find that MOB they need for a starter quest IS interaction.
3) Buying/Selling/Trading items with other people IS interacting.
4) And the MOST important reason... MMOGs come alive when other players are there. No matter how many times I play SW:KotOR, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play Morrowind, it is ALWAYS the same. No matter how many times I play... I think you get the point. If not, I'll explain further.
Can people please start getting it through their heads that "teaming/grouping/raiding" is not the be all, end all to MMOGs?
One final try... just in case.
*In school, does one ONLY interact with kids in the same study group? Even spread this out to same class. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue.
*At work, does one ONLY interact with memebrs on the same project team? Even spread that out to people in nearby cubicles? If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue.
*At church, does one ONLY interact with people on the same committee? Even spread that out to a table at an after church coffee. If not, think about other ways to interact with others in this venue.
*In the community, does one ONLY interact with their neighbors? Even spread this out to school district. If not, think about how other ways to interact with people in this venue.
I like teaming/grouping, do not get me wrong. It is when I HAVE to depend upon others for my tgame enjoyment that I get put off of a game. I just knew there would be "Why play MMOGs?" posts when I read that first post.
Now, I find it rather ironic that I read quite a bit of "fear" from people who prefer grouping/teaming over solo play. They site WoW as a prime example of what happens when people are not FORCED to team. They actually prefer to play solo! Imagine that! So, if given a chance, the average(?) MMOG player actually prefers soloing over grouping? I read fear, big time, from people who complain about WoW's lack of forced grouping. Now, they turn around and post about MMOG means grouping. No. It does not. It means "interacting with others", in the many, varied and wondrous ways possible, including (but not exclusively) grouping.
Is this any more clear yet? Can we please cut back on these kinds of posts now?
Best post I have read in a long time, becasue I agree with it so much. Says everything I was going to say on the subject.
Totally agree with the quality of that post. For me, UO was the creme de le creme and everything has been downhill ever since. I wish I could go back hehehe
UO didn't force grouping on you, but you could choose to if you wanted/needed to. I spent 90% of my time doing my own thing and %10 interacting in one fashion or another and they didnt even have LFG tags!
The type of MMO I would really like to see is, like everquest but more skilled based as in twitch first person shooter style of gameplay. NOT Skill points, NO Random number generator, and most of all, NO Point and click to control your characte either. And leveling should not matter. More levels should give you a larger range of equipment instead of better ones.
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
i havent read the whole thread, but ill tell the OP why we always have cookie-cutter games nowadays.
Because of EVERQUEST. uo came out, uo was fun, EQ come out, EQ was a drug. people got hooked, and sony made millions. We have only had eq-clones ever since.
Games who base themselves on old uo are rare - wish would have been a modern version of uo - and games like irth are trying to do the same - eve also have a little of that UO feel to it (strangely enough). But eq was so successful that everyone is trying to grap a piece of the pie.
As for wow, eq2, AC2, etc etc... they are all EQ clones with levels and restrictive classes and "i die and dont loose anything". I HATE LEVELS AND CLASSES. Oh im an orc mage, how cool - oh youre an orc cleric, wow... geesh.
Games like irth - where you use a skill, and ythat particular skill raises - and youre are not restricted by classes (meaning you can train ANY skill WHENEVER YOU WANT), are the types of games i go for. too bad irth isnt ready yet though. while a game like that comes out, ima keep playing uo - for the memories
Adreal, right on!
There's a zillion "grouping-oriented" games out there already. Where is the choice? How about just one solo-oriented game where grouping is an option, not a requirement?
If you went to a video game store, and all they sold was Sega Genesis machines and games for them, but you had X-Box or a PC, wouldn't you feel left out when they tell you: "hey, all games are Sega, If you don't like it, go suck a55 because everyone knows that gaming means Sega."
Pretty stupid, no?
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
YEah I am tired of several things, For one... why should pvp be so limited to certain class choices! They need to seriously work with making it completely balanced. It sounds far fetched but there must be a way! For example, Ragnarok online i thought i was going to go mad if I didnt get excactly the right build on say my Fire Wizard, or On WoW I was so worried about playing a night elf and being a shadow priest when the undead had the clear ultimate advantage.
People who didnt go reading forums for hours never got to know that their class sucked until they grinded to 60/99 or whatever the max is.
Nexustk had a good idea about the pvp system, lets go ahead and make it where you can level infinately, past 99 you buy stats with experience. Problem is some Losers sat there and account shared their lives away until a warrior named Calmwind was litterally years ahead of almost everyone. This guy must have never missed a full day, and there were a group of poets(priests/clerics) who followed him to heal his massive HP all of the time. These people had no life and since they didnt they got rewarded to one hit people!
Guildwars had a perfect idea, let people jump into pvp and not level grind! But the problem was that they instanced! Might as well be diablo! Theres no chance to wander through the woods and find a person who needs help from a goblin and heroicly rescue them.. even so its never quite as good as it seems in your mind.
FFXI Now that game was horrible! It didnt have pvp! Still doesnt have any REAL PvP if you ask me! It just was a chatroom where 500 people had to go do cheap lame quests together every night and had to be within the same levels! GOD Forbid if you went to get a group and your race/job configuration wasnt perfect! Might as well leave a program on to say "LFG lvl 25ranger/13Warrior" or some crap like that and went to sleep!
Oh and what about getting funds! Jeebuz! MMO's should pay US for our time! Its a full time job people! Like FFXI, to get a small amount of money you had to spend a Fortune in irl work time people! I mean to get the moat carp you needed fishing for example to get 100k would take you around a full week! I could have made minimum over 3-400 dollars if I spent the excact hours on minimum wage not to calculate overtime which is 2 1/2 times where im from!
Back on Nexus it was the same way! WoW Was ridiculous because to ever dream of being anything you had to focus hours and hours and hours on that game! Especially when they incorporated Battlegrounds!
Starwars Galaxies i played only long enough to hear the insane horror stories on how long it takes to get yourself to be a jedi! I figured I would just go get a black belt in karate instead irl! :P
All of this stuff for what? So your character doesnt turn out perfect or you find out your not good at pvp or even pve! OR something in life takes over!
Truth is this is why I miss Graal! Back when it was in its pre pay to play stages still considered a beta even (for years though) That game while simple and ugly had the best pvp system ever! It was all skill based, and you could mess with the settings to make the lag a certain way and beat people! If your lag was just right you could be a regular Samurai X Dissapearing and appearing behind them having slashed them in half muahahahaha! No real economy but definately had all sort of exciting RP abilities even though it was mostly an action game!
Too bad it died.
Ok Im done roflmao!
We Fight for our Rights as Paying Customers!
I'm sure it won't be SOE - they're too cookie-cutter.
What company will be the first to step up with the balls to make a solo MMO with optional grouping elements?
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
I'm surpised CaesarsGhost hasn't popped in here already. So I'll do it for him. Check the FAQ for The Chronicle here:
http://www.mmocenter.com/v2/
Can anyone say "Twitch and skill based PvP/PvE MMO"? I knew you could.
Enjoy
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
The Chronicle does look promising.
Have to keep my eye on it. Was a little vague about grouping/soloing, and the idea of main/regular characters made me itch, but it looks well worth watching!
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Ya know I love them mainly because I have superhuman twitching powers! But I think even moreso you have to admit it builds your overall hand eye coordination over time which is useful even in irl situations!
I am personally very very excited about the Chronicle! I bet it will be an awesome game! We need the whole conquest feel in mmo's, and we need small player made groups to be able to form masive armies and conquer areas! Fight for territory! Build on that territory! We need a good merc system as well! Bounty hunter system! All of that needs to be implimented!
Also Trading and so forth needs to be made more enjoyable! Merchant classes should come in several forms! We need a system like UO that allows physical showcasing of items in their personal shops! Even moreso a little more like NexusTK in their little market areas!
There needs to be more event action in each game! Legendary Items should be introduced that far surpass others that are one per server! Epic skills should be attained also one per server!
For example say I was in a game like world of warcraft and I had my lvl 60 human warrior out on a quest (one that is epic, and full of puzzles, that he could solo would be preferable), not just any quest! A Quest announced by the GM's in nothing more than a riddle! The prize could be anything! People travel from area to area hoping to find this! In the end I find a sword much like Excalibur that does massive damage far beyond other weapons! So good that if any other players wanted to combat him there would have to be some extreme technique involved and if he were really good he would be unstoppable!
Say theres another quest for Armor! or a Spell! An Ability! something they had in the game but didnt release to just everyone! That would make the game much more interesting! Sure it would overpower like one person here and there but it would allow for people to become Legendary! And whoever defeated that person with the bare minimum could be considered even more Legendary just based on skill! This also is why Twitch based combat is important because if we were playing WoW it would be an automatic victory if it were a warrior vs warrior whoever has such advanced equipment to the other would win because its just a bash for a bash!
Now not to glorify a dead game that never had much of anything that great in the first place! But it is a great example! Now Imagine playing Graal Online (or Zelda 3 for snes with a lot of people) and fighting that same battle!
The person with the skill, not the sword would win! Now I will agree WoW has some almost action elements but the truth is it still lacks true freedom.. its too turn based for me!
in my opinion if you like turn based lets make a game with a final fantasy console element! Instance people into battles and have the little menu pop up and play battle music! :P
Thats just my enormous opinion!
Wushuscholar
We Fight for our Rights as Paying Customers!
If you wanna do everything by yourself go play a singleplayer game...
Ooohhhh, I got burned!! Wow, the wisdom in that statement! How come I never thought of that? Of course! I can go play an offline game and still craft and sell to people and talk to other people like I want to.... NOT.
If all you want are things you have to have 200+ people to accomplish, why don't you go join the army?
Sheesh... narrow-minded people.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Playing a lonewolf in a massive world full of people is not the same as playing a 1 player game, however it is fun to group SOME I just dont like being totally dependant on a group to kill something like FFXI for example.
I use a similar arguement about PVE, you might as well be playing a regular offline multiplayer game.. the point of people in an rpg is to have Intelligently and Creatively controlled enemies, guides, allies, etc. To Play an MMO for PVE only totally defeats the purpose which is why I never play games that are all PVE unless its just to try it for the theme. To me I might as well go get Baldurs Gate.. its the same thing.
Wushu
We Fight for our Rights as Paying Customers!
Right, Wush. It's about choice.
Give us the choice to play the entire content of the game solo.
Give us the choice to sell our solo-crafted goods to other online players.
Give us the choice to talk to other online players.
Give us the choice to be a lone hero that doesn't need 200+ other players backing him up to take down a sewer rat.
Give us the choice to increase the risk and reward by grouping.
Give us the choice to rise all the way to the top on our own, via our own hard work and sweat.
Choices are good. I hear nothing but "go play an offline game" from people who hate choice. Hey, anti-choicers: you already have a BILLION F---ing games that require you to group to wipe your a55. One game that offers a choice won't hurt your little feelings.
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Leave... The Horse... Alone.