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Hardcore MMORPGs
Dodoo
Member Posts: 78
Seems like we can't browse a MMORPG thread without stumbling on the term "hardcore".
But what is really a "hardcore MMORPG"?
Is it a game that only the most skilled and thoughtful players will succeed in and enjoy (like in FPSs)?
Or simply a game in which you have to enjoy wasting even more time on repetitive tasks?
For example, once you manage to kill your first rat, a softcore MMORPG will require you to kill 20 more to gain enough skill or experience to be able to kill bigger rats whereas a hardcore MMORPG will require you to kill 200.
In the first one, you were able to kill bigger rats after one hour and your character risked being killed 20 times.
In the second, it cost you ten times the time and ten times the risk.
When you look at it this way, are hardcore MMOGs really a matter of skill or only a matter of time?
I have enough spare time to play a few hours a day so time is really not an issue for me.
But the simple thought of having to do the same "once-new-and-exciting-but-now-dumb-as-hell task" over and over again to reach the next goal bores me to death.
So I guess that I'll never be able to enjoy any of those "hardcore MMORPGs" (aka "time wasters").
Comments
I don't remember seeing "hardcore" being attibuted to a game as much as a particular sort of gamer. Maybe some full PvP MMOs, such as Lineage2 and Shadowbane, might be referred to as "hardcore" now and then, but I think you might be confusing the description of the gamer with the game.
I would consider there being hardcore mmos and stream-lined mmos for the masses myself.
Hardcore mmos in my opinion are typically older style mmos such as the pre-trammel Ultima Online or Asherons Call 1, or Everquest 1. In these games, it wasn't neccessarily that it took more mob kills to advance, but the depth level and skill level required to enjoy the game was much higher then most current mmos today. I would also throw in that free-for-all PvP with consequences for dying are also an element of the hardcore type mmos.
In Ultima Online PvP, a death meant losing everything on you that wasn't "blessed" to stay with you upon death. If you were stocked up for a long dungeon crawl, you usually had on your best armor and weapon and lots of expensive reagents used for spell casting. If you died to a mob or to another player, you dropped almost everything and would have to run back to your corpse less equipped or even nekked to try and retrieve your valuables which had a high risk of dying yet again. Most players these days don't like this much "challenge" and therefore play more stream-lined mmos like EQ2, WoW or many others with much less risk (and reward as well if PvP is allowed)
Asherons Call took a less strict approach to death and based the number of items lost on your corpse based on your avatars level. For example while a level 5 dude might lose 1 of his most expensive items, a level 60 dude might lose 6-10 of his most expensive items on death. Most valuable belongings were usually VERY easily protected however by carrying plenty of "death items" which were basically high value loot that was useless junk. Still, if caught unprepared, a loss of life could cost you some of your most treasured valuables expecially in PvP like on the Darktide server. AC also punished avatars with a loss of their statistics on death with what they termed as "vitae penalty" that must be worked off by gaining more experience. Again your highest level of VP (Vitae penalty) was based on your characters level, and after about level 12, if you died senselessly over and over and over without working off your VP, you could hit a maximum VP of 40%, which really hurt your statistics and ability to perform needed skills effectively. VP under level 30% however was really very easy to work off, and also added another drive to level up your avatar.
Games like Everquest 2 seem to offer more of an all-reward, no risk type of game in hopes of luring more players and reaching the masses who hate to actually be punished for dying. I personally think death should sting myself and that you should be punished for being stupid enough to try and fight a level 300 dragon when you are level 3. I understand some deaths are cheap and/or are the result of uncontrolled things like lag or a server drop, but still... it adds more challenge for "hardcore mmo gamers" like myself. In games like Everquest 2, you only have a very small stat or exp penalty for dying and can reduce this by simply clicking on your corpse. Not only that, but they also further prevent you from even having to try and remember where you died at by giving you a stupid golden ray of light leading you from your respawn point back to your corpse! With this kind of system in place, there is really no risk what-so-ever to dying, and for many like myself, this makes a game ultra boring, regardless of the immersion level or graphics level a game might have.
So I wouldn't think of hardcore mmos as games that require more time, but rather as games that are more challenging then the standard mmo you have being produced for the masses today. Some actually like a challenge in their computer games, but most game players these days hate ANY challenge in their games, and just want all rewards. Think I'm full of it? I can rest my case by simply pointing you to the number of "cheat codes" websites available for almost all games, the number of cheat codes books, etc etc. Cheat codes do the same thing in essense. They take away all risks from a game, make the game super easy to beat, and basically make a high quality challenging game boring with all rewards and no risk. Cheat codes like "infinite lives" to a PS2 or Xbox game do essentially the same thing as super streamlining mmos that make death in the game having no sting or consequences what-so-ever.
That's how I see it anyhow. I will get flamed I know for my response here as I know I am highly outnumbered by players who think cheatcodes rock and death in mmos should be painless. I however am one of the few that believes that cheatcodes ruin games and make buying or even playing them pointless, and also that super streamlining an mmo ruins the game by taking away all or most of any challenge.
- Zaxx
Very interesting post Zaxx! Thanks.
I would have to agree with you, you should lose things when you die. certainly dropping items is most realistic expecially if PK'd but fundermentally extremely frustrating. I've always felt that a loss of EXP punishes you just right, without you losing your altra rare max damage weapons or whatever.
But thats a very interesting take on the meaning of hardcore, an a well thought out post
I think there may be a lot more people who agree 100% with you on this than you realise.
I worked with a guy who actually used to buy the game guide at the same time time as he bought a new game for his Playstation. He said that if he didn't then he wouldn't know what to do or where to go in the game.
You have to feel a certain degree of pity for someone that weak minded ..... and then totally ignore them for being a pointless runt of course
As for hardcore games, I feel one should just play what one enjoys and not bother about the opinion of imature attention seekers who deride certain games for being too easy.
HELL YA ZAXX!!!!
Consider yourself our new Posterboy of Death !!
I've been playing Anarchy Online for 4 years now, not sure if I'm hardcore or softcore
but one of the changes to the game 3 years ago that irked me the most was the introduction of "experience insurance". Previously, when you died you lost 100% of the xp you had gained above your previous level... permanently. Today all xp is recoverable. And you never lose any items if you remembered to save your character...
Obviously, this element, as with most MMORPGs these days, results from game companies targeting a wider and wider (as well as younger and younger) consumer audience. It's become an MTV world of instant gratification and short attention spans.
I am DIEING (excuse the pun) to return to a MMORPG where death is treated seriously!
In fact, I would have liked to start a brand new thread asking ppl to list the top MMORPGs by Death Severity, but out of deference to your excellent post, I am humbly posting under yours
VIVA LA MUERTE!!!
There is 2 mmorpgs i would call hardcore right now. Shadowbane and eve-online. In both games there is risks and you need to earn your reward unlike everything being safe and handed to you. Games where you just grind for xp, items and gold arent hardcore no matter how much grind there is.
Ultima online used to be like that before they reduced risk and finally removed it, because it was too much for some players to lose something valuable in game.
I always just conisdered harcore to be the title used for MMORPGS most people dont want to play.
so people call it "hardcore" so that people who need to e-peen ++ can say things:
"oh your just not hardcore enought to enjoy it"
or
"your just a carebear, play a real game"
Its a status thing.
makes them sound like they work harder for their accomplishments.
It used to be a mmorpg that had harsher penalties for Pking and Death, but its straying more for that and its becomming a way for people who play dieing mmorpgs to insult others and make themselves feel better.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
The purpose of my post was to offer a knowledgeable MMO player the opportunity to explain what really is a hardcore MMO.
Because too many players tend to qualify as "hardcore" the games which are the longest grinds and they have to realize that they are not "hardcore", they are just plain boring.
Zaxx did an excellent job at it so kudos to him!
Now if only MMORPGs developers realized that to make a game challenging you do not have to make every bit of it take hours on end to complete, I would enjoy their games much much more.
At least, make the killing of 200 clones meaningful by sticking a purpose on it like rescuing a princess, defending a town, opening a trade route, conquering new land, etc.
Which is, sadly, everything a static MMORPG can't offer.
And don't put it in as endgame content but to replace the usual level grind.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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