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What to do at lvl 50?
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I'm beginning to see the nerfing in CoH. And I'm not thrilled about the prospects for more thanks to the addition of PvP with the entirely new archetypes from CoV. It sets the stage for the kind of bad weather that can produce tornados. And as much as I enjoy the game, I don't want to see it reduced to a nerf fest where the idea is that all archetypes are equal. It seems to me that the more serious PvP'ers enjoy the challenge of having skill combinations that normally require more than one person to overtake someone. And many people who play an elite PvP toon enjoy taking on as large a group as they can. I've been in a fight like that in SWG. It was amazing to see one player hold her ground against 4-6 opponents for several minutes and kill some of them off. But developers have to make adjustments to classes for some balance. The question is, "how much is really necessary to make the overall experience fun?" I hope they stick to that level of nerfs from here on.
And yes the nerfing in star wars was very annoying. Just like some of them in CoH are. Most of us want to work toward developing a toon that can do what we intended it to do when we started the process a few hundred hours ago. If CoH does much of the heavy handed nerfing like they did with tanks in the interest of PvP. It will spoil the game experience for me. That's why I left SWG in the first place. It's the worst form of game instability there is. I want a game that grows without killing off expectations. I want to spend a year developing a toon or more that are capable of doing what I wanted when I started the process. Not build out a toon that has been reduced to mediocre while being replaced with the new model so that I've squandered my time. Maybe I'll finally give up my mmo addiction if they do though. Because I'm not interested in the fantasy fiction genre.
I don't see why they would need to balance PVP at all. In all the PVP I have been part of, there IS NO dominant class.
Everyone thought Stalker.. didn't pan. Then they thought MM.. didn't pan. I haven't heard of one uber pvp class come up yet.
Except for my blaster.. he owns :P
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
So was I, but his is not an example of advanced AI. The sapper has the same AI as all the other ranged attackers in COH, it attacks if you are in range. It's attack is different from a regular enemy blaster, but it's AI is not.
Game difficulty, is not AI. AI means "artificial intelligence". It is the decision making process that controls the responses of the enemies. Not their powertype, nor your ability to defeat them. Number of Hitpoints and attacktypes are not AI.
If that same Sapper chose between what attacktypes to use, or patrolled an area, or when low on hitpoints ran over to the next mob (without bumping into walls) and aggroed them into the fight, it would then be as sophisticated as Blizzard Ai's.
It doesn't , it isn't. Whether you enjoy Diablo or WOW or not doesn't alter that the AI in both those games are more sophisticated than the ones in COH. They are capabale of moving more accurately, making more decisions and using tactics simply not available to a COH enemy. They are smarter, they have access to more functions and superior pathing.
This is an empirical observation. You will dismiss it as opinion if you like, but we can list the actual different responses available to each companies AI and count them.
Further to this we can list the number of situations in both games during which an Ai will run into a wall. I have gone so far as to list some of the functions of the AI which Blizzard's have and COH doesn't. I don't see anyone contesting these or pointing out any functions Cryptic Ai has but Blizzard's doesn't.
So please by all means argue that improved AI doesn't enhance the combat in a way in which you enjoy. But don't waste my time claiming COH AI is superior. It isn't.
I too found endurance drains (carnies too) to be a challenging fight. Likewise in WoW I have similar difficulties with fire elementals for example. Their attack types leave me very vulnerable.
I can also believe that you were surfing and fighting in WoW. The Ai's in Wow are all tailored so that different monster types behave differently. Undead never flee when wounded, spiders never call for reinforcements, raptors shout to all their mates in earshot for help while goblins physically run over to the nearest ally and ask of no one is in earshot. The Ai is tailored to breed individuality and difference into the tactics required for each mob. Should you be fighting the stupid ones, it's just as easy as any other game with stupid Ai.
In COH by comparison, we have only two basic types. Fight to the death, and fight until badly wounded then run off, comeback in a minute and fight to the death then.
I am equally able to surf the net and fight in COH. Only more so. Often, in CoH, I fight using two computers. I play both my scrapper and my healer simultaneously.
There are no significant patrol groups and, bosses aside, only the sappers ruluralu and carnies actually require any change in tactics. 95% of all COH combat is the same. COH fights are more easily controlled and the chances of a second mob becoming aggroed is very rare and totally dependant upon an actual player aggroing them as opposed to WoW's AI doing so on their own to better defend themselves.
Essentially my combat routine for fighting a mob of freaks is identical to my combat routine for fighting earthies, helions, council, nemesis, tsoo, skyraiders, rikti and thorn etc etc. I use the same combo's of moves in the exact same order to defeat them. I focus my targets on the the same enemy AT's first.
The variation in either COH or Wow is not what I would describe as vast (outside of PVP games when is it?). I can sympathise with Grapes opnion that it makes too little difference for him to care about. I do feel that Blizzard have the clear advantage in this area however.
Like you I don't care especially about Blizzard, I am simply using it as an obvious example to refute the claims that COH has a fantastic and world beating combat system, way more advanced than any of it's market rivals. I would agree that it has a very fluid and competant one, but I don't really see it as a "world leader" in this particular department.
" There are no significant patrol groups and, bosses aside, only the sappers ruluralu and carnies actually require any change in tactics. 95% of all COH combat is the same. COH fights are more easily controlled and the chances of a second mob becoming aggroed is very rare and totally dependant upon an actual player aggroing them as opposed to WoW's AI doing so on their own to better defend themselves."
That statement is not correct. Patrol's have significantly increased since i5 and especially in CoV (loads of the things). Also with CoV mobs actually can trigger other groups aggroing, mission dependant. This will make its way over to CoH, at some point. Also many of those mobs you mentioned only require standard tatics if you happen to be an AT that has mez resists, most don't. Otherise each you need to approach with different tactics. Likewise WoW requires no change in tactics from mob to mob as much as CoH does, trying to otherwise claim so is inaccurate or fanboi'ism. Both AI systems boil down to simply aggro control. However, spawing a roaming group (i.e. patrol) no matter the game is not AI. Its a spawn site with movement. If you want to see some good AI have a look at the changes they made recently to it in SWG. Mobs actually kite you, charge in to knock you down then run off to a safe distance, etc. Just a shame they've screwed the rest of the game up.
"However, spawing a roaming group (i.e. patrol) no matter the game is not AI."
That patrol must be pathed. The AI governs the navigation of the patrol. this specific function of the AI is known as "pathing". Without pathing, the patrol is just another static mob (CoH classic). Pathing is one of the more advanced functions in AI. Anecdotaly, the guidance system of Tomahawk cruise missiles is an altered form of the AI from a game called "Creatures".
COH patrols are all straggly. Wow patrols walk in close formation. Some thought has been given to both the placing of WoW patrols, the animation and pathing. the CoH's apart from (being almost nonexistant) have terrible pathing*, no formation and were not used intelligenlty to raise the difficulty of a combat enviroment.
(*) They walk into walls, pipes and objects, bumping along them instead of going round.
Patroling mimics real world security tactics. Patrols enable the defenders to catch their enemies off guard instead of just waiting to die in a static defence.
Patrol's have significantly increased since i5
When you say since I5, do you mean I6? (or do you mean they were included in the I5 update).
I haven't come across any myself (I haven't played I6) but you have played it more than me I think. The only example I currently have to offer is in the Cog missions but I think they were always there. As previously discussesed the AI code in games such as WoW have taken over 10 years to develop. The Idea that COH have suddenly mimiced that entire development progress and gone from 1st generation to fourth or fifth generation AI in only 2 months isn't a suggestion I find easy to swallow.
Wow's treatment of aggro is more complex than COH, a simple taunt does not do it. In Coh once a tank has taunted, the mob is then controlled until either the taunt expires or it dies. In Wow taunts give a very high aggro, but it can be overriden. Some creatures are notably immune to taunt entirely. Wow also has a very limited "group taunt". controlling a mobs aggro is a much more challenging affair in this game. In CoH, the tank simply clicks the taunt button and it's done. In Wow by comparison apart from individual or group taunt a WoW tank has a further 7 abilities specfically designed for the purpose of increasing your aggro.
Wow requires very different tactics from mob to mob. With specific regards to the AI, here is an example.
While fighting humans, I must hunt down and kill every fleeing enemy before he alerts a new mob. My priority target must be the fleeing unit or I will rapidly become overwhelmed. Against spiders who never call for help, my priority target must be the unit currently damaging me. If any target runs off, I can ignore it until it returns and use those val;uable seconds to divert my damage elsewhere. These are two different tactics specificly needed for different mobs as a result of WoW's AI.
There are other different tactic that, like sappers, are a result of powersets, but the above is AI specific and not found in COH.
Haven't played SWG but I am more than happy to concede that other games have superior AI to COH too, as mentioned it's somewhat lacking for a modern game.
As far as the AI goes, they have made critical targets in CoV missions smart enough to run away and escape you if you can't take them down. Then you fail your mission. And it is reasonable to expect new ideas that were introduced in CoV will find their way into CoH over the course of a few publishes. So they are improving it. And I've been in teams that were wiped out by a patrol in harder missions. They do show up in missions. I even saw one last night after clearing the mission to complete it. Someone was backtracking before exiting and we ran into a nasty little mob that was fun. Their relative threat is equivalent to the mobs that are above median for the mission. Typically more lieutenants or bosses. Not to discredit the argument as to which AI is better. I can't compare the two games. I've never played WoW. But regardless, both are obviously great fun. Otherwise you two wouldn't be arguing the case for multiple pages.
SPOOOOON!!!
No, I mean i5. In i5 they added greater diversification in missions, within that was some AI changes and more patrols. i6 added and changed even more. As for the mob aggro situation, it now appears that in certain missions mobs that are within viewing distance can aggro if they see a fight going on. I personally noticed it in a Carnie and Longbow missions, when they decided to join in the fight even though we hadn't moved any closer to them. I was leveling my Warshade until the weeek after i6 went live and patrols were common, all be it less than what are currently in CoV. CoH has always been an evolving game, as each issue has brough changes and major content additions. WoW hasn't changed that much from launch, not that's a bad thing. So seriously trying to compair a game you don't play, with one you do isn't exactly a valid comparision. Especially for a mmorpg, which has had additions made to it since you left.
Please forgive my natural skepticism, I know it's a bit rude to air it.
Unfortunatley you were also the guy that noticed no drop in player population (or even an increase), even though it has halved. You might recall suggesting that your superior playtime left you more informed about that observation also.
I have played enough of both to have formulated an opinion and to have seen what I have seen. I appreciate you have insights into what updates have occoured in I6 where I do not, but I don't have blind faith in them over and above reasonable expectation based on my personal experience.
You're a moron and clueless WoW fanbio. Get over it!!! Wow is an excellent game and does have many strenghts that CoH/CoV doesn't. Likewise CoH/CoV has some WoW doesn't. WoW has always been a mmorpg. CoH was a mmog and still is, as a standalone. Only adding CoV can it really be defined as a mmorpg (i.e. crafting, fractions, true pvp, etc). Both are enjoyable, by what degree is personal taste. As for AI improvements!! I didn't even bother mentioning that some mobs now roam around and end up in battles with each other if they are opposing fractions. There is even an entire PvP zone where npc heroes and villains slug it out and you aid your side. That alone is more complex AI than anything WoW has. Overall though I still stand by what I said, I'm very indifferent between which is better.
Population hasn't dropped, which just goes to show how clueless you are. All servers are way up and as predicted (by others and myself) the swing has been to playing villains (since they are new), hence active hero numbers are somewhat lower while general population has significanly increased. Server split is about 33% hero, 66% villain. Prior to CoV US server activity had remainted pretty much static for around a year. Fact and proved, only your own ignorance says otherwse.
Quite frankly you are just trolling. You don't play the game so screw your lack of "blind faith", as those who do play know what's factual.
Server population has dropped to half since launching according the NC soft figures.
We've covered this already.
Insulting me doesn't change anything.
Yeah and you were proved wrong.
Server populations havn't halfed and neither has NC soft stated otherwise.
In fact all servers are now at the highest they have been for quite some time.
As published by NCsoft. These are the EU US combined. (you can see the marked increase of player numbers in March)
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=4010771&bodyprev=#Post4010771
Highest concurrent users
June 04 31,085
Sept 04 26,870
Dec 04 15,741 <== U.S. servers halved in population within first 6 months.
Mar 05 21,283 <== Add the new players from the Euro launch.
June 05 20,911
Sept 05 22,340
Perhaps add to this data the 13,000 you counted on U.S. servers last month.
U.S. population has more than halved and EU seems to be holding up better.
No idea where you got those stats, but thanks for proving me right. That link you made even has a statement from Stateman saying numbers are up.
The whole of 2005 has been around the 21,000 figure. As stated, for around a year CoH's figures haven't fluxuated a great deal. Although they certainly have increased after CoV's release. Prior to CoV, yes US numbers were down since launch but not over the past year and as I stated was around the 1,300+ on Justice (during early EST evening and leading up to CoV 24/7 beta) and similar figures on other servers. No idea where you are getting I counted 13,000 from (for last month), as I counted and stated something around 1.95k mean population per live US server when taking into account those on live and beta, which is a calculated 21,450. For prior months what I stated (which was for US only) was pretty much near what you posted for December 2004 (i.e taking the low end figure of ~1,300 x 11 = ~14,300), which again shows that their hadn't been much change over a year (at that point). Live numbers dipped when CoV beta went 24/7 and opened it's doors to pre-orders. So yes, during that period the live serrvers did become somewhat of a ghost town. However, overall server activty increased (i.e. live + beta servers) and has continued to do so following the launch of CoV. As a reminder, the US beta was (bar the odd exception) only open to active long-term CoH subscribers and those who pre-ordered CoV.
Can you now put this thread back on topic?
You know Grapevine, I have read all your posts and the posts of those replying and commenting. I find it amusing that you throw out "YOU ARE A WOW FANBOI" barbs at people with credable reponses and points on game comparisions.
Let me say this. If ever there was a single poster that I have ever seen on this or any board with the word "COH FANBOI" tatooed on their forehead it would certainly have to be you. Maybe thats why you call others that so often?
So explain why I agree respecs are way out of hand? While I've not had issue with the nerfs and have adjusted, I've defnintly not been happy with the need for certain ATs to respec after every issue due to them?
Why do I think i5 did not address the correct level of content (i.e. should have been 35-45)?
Why do I agree ED crippled defences unjustly?
Why do I feel WoW is more immersive than CoH and a true mmorpg, while CoH (without CoV) is a mmog?
Why do I feel the devs shotcutted on CoV, by making the mission system (outside of newpapers) to linear? By which I mean the lack of exclusive origin based missions.
Why do I agree there is a lack of level 50 content and Cryptic sliped up by ignoring it? Which after all is what this thread is surposed to be about.
Why do I agree heros have been affected by CoV's release and finding hero groups at certain levels is currently not as easy as it was?
Why did I tell one guy who was asking if CoH was worth giving a second try not to bother? As he had stated he'd bored quickly the first time due to instanced mission dynamics, which fundamently is the same dispite newer variations. Get a mission, travel to the instance, then back to the contact for another once complete.
All those I've stated, within this forum. Clearly you didn't read all my posts, did you?
I just simply argue against posts that are bullshit. Doesn't mean that I feel CoH is the best game out there, because it isn't. What is, is subjective to the individuals taste. Actually my personal opinion is WoW is the best mmorpg at the moment, but like for CoH I accept it has issues. WoW has a lot more debth than CoH, all be it I prefer the latters combat. End result, I enjoy both games equally and ultimitly indifferent.
Also I've only called two people WoW fanbios, because they are. They are also highly anti CoH and have commented against them when they aren't being credible and are proved so. One thing that really grinds on me is when I see people posting inaccurate information like gospil, espeically when its in a thread from someone that is new and is asking questions. Opinions are fine, if that's all they are. Just like the AI conversation. The issue from that came from the "I don't believe it, because I've not played it as I'm not a current subscriber" type comment and the misrepresnting of an ealier discussion over server populations, which is bullshit. If you are going to have a discussion at least come to the table with up to date information.
Grape,
I would publicly ask you to make a special effort to be nice and respectful of other opinions.
The staff here might be a little careful about their "elite member", but you often "hurt" other person rather than argue.
I don't agree with everything Baff says, but I can certainly say I am closer to agreeing with him than with you. However, you often hurt other persons rather than bring arguments.
You have a right at your opinion. But everyone have a right to defend their opinion.
Of course there are some points where folks choose to avoid debating an aspect with another person, like most raiders will never bother to argue with me, we are WAY OFF to ever considering an agreement, most raiders just avoid me (real raiders agree with me niak niak niak). They never agree with me, but they either argue with me, or leave me alone after a few messages.
If Baff argue with you, you are welcome to argue back. But don't insult him personnally.
I don't dislike you, however I clearly think you are a fanboi!
You can try to argue that, or just take it with pride, been emotional and irrational about something you like is not bad. Nobody will ever get any game before SSI product as "better" with me agreeing. Am I emotional? Prolly! But damn, The Dark Queen of Krynn was the roxxor! 
That's been said, I see your opinion improve and you are less a fanboi than you use to be.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Lets not turn this in to grapevine vs Baff thread. So I will conclude, with what is my point of view! In general I haven't been insulting to others, but admittedly I have been to him and to his predecessor Useful. In Baff's case its simply because I'm tired of being misquoted and called a lier, because he won't accept anything unless seeing it fist hand, isn't an active subscriber so can't and even didn't play on the US servers when he could. Even more annoying is when it comes down to data/information being posted that shows I was being factual.
I agree others opinions are valid, but calling someone a lier when they are being truthful and claiming it needs to be seen first hand (when that person doesn't even subscribe) is not acceptable.
As for being a fanboi, you like others are welcome to think what you want. People always have opinions of others, sometimes its right, sometimes its wrong. I certainly won't be defending CoH over negative comments that are factual, but I will if they aren't. When they aren't is also the times I post more actively, as misleading really cheeses me off. Maybe that's why you see me as a fanbio, because I seem to defend against what is misleading more than post in agreement with the negatives.
Maybe I am dimwit, but I feel far more that you insult him than him call you a lier or insult you.
He disagree and say your info ain't right...now I will admit I didn't read all that, I have some free time, but not THAT much free time!
Baff is opiniated, but I didn't see him having much troubles with many folks...while you...well.
You like to argue and you like to "win". The best proof is that you try to "conclude" so you have the last message on the topic! Saddly I like to argue just as much if not more!
The only person I give up on arguing with is Woody and it is because I want to enjoy his comics and if the arguing get to deep, I fear it could focus his mind on the arguing rather than comics, so I don't argue with Woody! But a stranger or, staff here or SoE devs, bring it on!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
By conclude (just to clarify) I meant I was no longer going to contribute to a thread discussing Baff or myself, not that I was having final say.
BTW, what comics by Woody?
I disappear for a bit to find more lies by grape. Keep up the posts grape!
How much NCSoft paying you to spam the messageboards?
What to do at lvl 50?
- Farm for prestige for CoH.
- Firebase zulu missions
- help out lower level heroes.
- stand around in atlas flexing your lvl 50 uberness.
- Go to PvP zones.
So basically it sums up. Nothing really.
Lies? Dream on Useful. Why not actually read Baff's stats post, proves exactly what I was saying.
I'm surprised you have enough guts to reappear after such a string of inaccurate and embarrising posts. However, correct on the level 50 stuff. Athough you missed out the Hami raid and doing lower level TFs.
Welcome back.