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  • cxknightcxknight Member Posts: 37

    I have several thoughts on this theory. I think changes can be devastating to a fan base depending on when they happen. If major changes occur 6 months to a year after launch, then their is unsaid fact that the game design had failed and the company was wrong. However, SWG had these changes occur 3 years after launch. Their change is much more complicated.

    In the real world, businesses have to adapt and change as business climates and customer wishes change. MMO's are a business in the end. First, I need to mention that a change right after the first combat upgrade was bad and probably should of been held off. However, the community would continue to stagnate if unchanged and SOE had to figure out something to reenergize their community. I think many of these pushes and changes are the cause of LucasArts which brings me to the next point. MMO's need to change to stay competitive. The group that MMO's want playing their game is casual gamers. There have been reports that the majority of the population of all MMO's are casual gamers. The hard core gamers only make up the minority. Many casual gamers were dissatisfied with the state of SOE and were looking at other games such as World of Warcraft and the City of Heroes/Villains games. Casual gamers wanted to have a fun time during the short play and not have to boringly grind their way to a point to have fun. SWG did not meet this criteria so I am sure subscriptions were going down even during this high point of the star wars franchise with the release of Episode 3. The fact that the jedi class in which the prequels showcased was only attainable after at least an 8 month wait. The three main iconic figures were luke the jedi, han the smuggler and darth vader and his empire. These are the roles people wanted to experience and hardly any of them were attainable from the outset. Two of them could be acheived through roleplaying, but even smuggling was not present in the game. With all this said, SOE had a choice.

    Really, there were two choices. The first choice was to allow the game to stagnate with its existing community as casual gamers gradually dropped and left with the few hard core gamers who were going to eventually get bored and move on anyway. The other choice was to reestablish a whole new system with new classes and a system more in motion with today's games then games 3 years ago. I am pretty sure the availability of technology is playing a major role. They knew the change would upset the hard core gamers and others who liked the old system. However, they also knew that they had the potential to bring in a lot more gamers regardless of age. If the changes failed, they would be in the exact same spot as choice number one, but with fewer hard core gamers. If the changes succeeded, SWG would return as one of the premeire mmos in the industry regardless of its age. So, they took the second route which I think was the smartest choice.

    In the end, the gamers will decide. I am my own person, and I dont neeed forums of naysayers and spamming of naysayers in game to decide what i like and i don't. I DO think their is a fundamental disconnect between SOE and it's playerbase, but I think LucasArts has probably made this journey alot harder for everyone than anyone thinks. I blame them for the alpha class jedi thing, which most experienced game designers (which I know there are some in the SOE developers) know is a bad idea. Other games have released sequels to their games after two or three years and some have done well and some haven't. I think this is the smartest way to go with the current market. SWG is the only major visible sci-fi rpg on the market. Some games have explored niches of this genre but SWG is the only one to really bring many of sci-fi genres together. This is their strength and until another sci-fi mmorpg such as star trek that can bring alot of sci-fi genres together, SWG will be the only one available.

    Pity the man who seeks change, but pity more the man who refuses to change

  • ElethonElethon Member UncommonPosts: 138
    Well said cxknight image
  • Dis_OrdurDis_Ordur Member Posts: 1,501
    It is safe to say that our newfound forum memeber Squidi is simply trying to get a rise out of everyone...  He blatantly contradicted himself numerous times in arguing with me, and he isn't worth the fingerstrokes for a reply...  Are you related to Pirrg, Squidi?

    image

  • ShdwcasterShdwcaster Member Posts: 15

    In response to the original post and topic:

    I'm not generally in favor of drastic changes to an existing, established MMORPG, mostly for the reasons that have already been mentions, primarily potential alienation of an existing playerbase.

    However, in the case of Galaxies, I do believe that major changes were necessary, and while I have a few quibbles on implementation, I feel that overall, the game changes do provide for a more sustainable game. The real trick will be to see if they can attract and maintain a sufficient playerbase to make it worth-while.

    Here's what I considered to be the major problems of orginal Galaxies (or SWG 1.0), and their fixes in the New Game Enhancements (SWG 2.0).

    1. Alpha class. Having an Alpha class (jedi) may be a good idea on paper when it's being designed, but in practice, it seems to have major problems in any game with a PvP component, or even a high-end loot component. If the Alpha class is properly superior to all other classes, then people will inevitably migrate to it if they desire to be competitive in PvP and high end PvE. If the Alpha is not properly superior, then people who spend the extra time and effort to reach the Alpha class feel cheated.

    The NGE solves this by removing the alpha class.

    2. Too many combat templates to balance. I love the flexibility of the old profession system. Unfortunately, it was probably too flexible to properly balance. I realize the CU was an attempt at balance, but it really only shifted around what the best profession combo templates would be. The simple fact is that not counting Jedi or Force Sensitive skills, there were still 157 possible profession combinations that would result in a CL80 (max level) character. You simply cannot balance that many possible combinations.

    The NGE solves this by droping the number of professions that need combat balancing to 5. I don't agree with the measure being quite so draconian, but it will certainly help with balance and dev time.

    3. Hideous learning curve. I've played SWG since September 2003. I think everyone who's played for an extended period of time would have to admit that the various menu UI, perticularly the combat HUD and skills screen, were horribly laid out and designed. Confusing, cluttered, with information and options scattered in weird places, this was not a UI conducive to new player experiences. The original tutorial was near useless, and I remember dropping into my newbie city and not being sure how to do even simple tasks.

    The NGE seems to have helped this a bit with redesigned UI, although UI design does seem to continue to be one of the issues that is difficult to get right, not just for SOE but for many other MMORPG developers.

    -----------------------------
    When I go, I want to leave a crater, not lie in one.

    Former Matrix: Online dev. Been there, done that.

  • SquidiSquidi Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by zoey121
    Let me make one thing perfectly clear it is not about the changes it is about the fact that i as a handicap player cannot manage nge! I could have accepted the level based game one proffesion but my disablity is to the point i cannot manage aim target or play even a partialy twiced based game
    What do you want me to say? I'm sorry you're handicapped? Yes, you are getting screwed, but you have to realize that you represent a minority of game players, and you can't make business descisions based on the needs of a very small percentage of people. I'm not handicapped and I like the new system. Does that make the system bad because I can play it and you can't? Does that make me a jerk for liking it because I don't take your special needs into account when playing it? I get the impression that you'd rather the game shut down simply because it wouldn't be just you getting singled out.

    I'm not trying to be selfish or rude. It's just, SWG is a game that seeks to get the largest audience as possible. If they have to deny your needs to get the needs of a greater population, then I'm sorry, but that's what they have to do. It's nothing personal, and it shouldn't be taken as such. It's not like they made a conscious descision to "hey, let's screw the handicapped!" any more than they thought "let's use lots of text to piss off illiterates!" or "let's screw people with only 256 megs of RAM!".


    While i reconize those with disablites are few in the gaming maket i want to remind you and fellow gamers who do they they think they play with during the day?
    This statement reeks of self importance.


    So for all your great pondering over what is to come, this change will be long remembered by the community and just add a bunch of other folks that have hard feelings toward soe and will be remembered in future products they bring out.
    Yes, grudges die hard in the SWG community, don't they. I still see people complaining about things said during beta. THINGS CHANGE.


    For the record it is not the teens and console based crowd that had dispoable income for there gaming products consoles games, but the older folks that could do it . When they by pass us and ignore our needs as a whole they lose a vauable customer base that would be customers , for the record not a he and i guess not in the demographic target for there new customers either
    I don't see these changes as being particularly teen orientated, but even then, who are you to say that you deserve to play SWG more than them? What makes you so self important that you think that your experience is worth the experience of a dozen teenagers? You need to step down and realize that you are but one player amongst several hundred thousand players and that it is not only impossible to target your specific needs, you have no more right to play the game than anybody else.
  • SquidiSquidi Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by Dis_Ordur
    It is safe to say that our newfound forum memeber Squidi is simply trying to get a rise out of everyone... He blatantly contradicted himself numerous times in arguing with me, and he isn't worth the fingerstrokes for a reply... Are you related to Pirrg, Squidi?
    I've been here since May. I just don't post unless there is something worth saying. You should take note.
  • bhrimstoanbhrimstoan Member Posts: 3

    I hope the OP takes note of how diastrous the NGE launch is going today for his article. Players are getting agro'd by npc vendors, stuck in houses, and experiencing major respec bugs. No one expects a launch of this proportion to go off without any hitches, but this is just unreal. Hard to believe they've supposedly been testing this for months, isn't it?

  • ShdwcasterShdwcaster Member Posts: 15

    Personally, I find the bugs fairly unsuprising. Internal QA usually doesn't have more than 15-20 people testing, and that's a big team. I don't doubt that SOE's been testing internally for months, but some bugs simply don't show up until you have a live-server sized population. The test servers are a good middle ground, but even they aren't always up to the task.

    Oh, and if the Squidi posting here is the same Squidi that used to run the A Modest Destiny site, just ignore him. Arguing with this guy is like wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

    -----------------------------
    When I go, I want to leave a crater, not lie in one.

    Former Matrix: Online dev. Been there, done that.

  • Dis_OrdurDis_Ordur Member Posts: 1,501



    Originally posted by Shdwcaster

    Oh, and if the Squidi posting here is the same Squidi that used to run the A Modest Destiny site, just ignore him. Arguing with this guy is like wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

    LMAO!!!!

    image

  • hikariukhikariuk Member Posts: 34

    The people who like the NGE will stay with the game. The ones who don't, like me, will quit. So long as the number of people who remain out number the number of people that left, SOE/Lucas are laughing. They'll also be banking on picking up new subscribers. Maybe they will, maybe they won't (I expect they will).

    I would, of course, love it if the game fell flat on its face and SOE/Lucas made a huge loss. I doubt it's going to happen, but I can dream my vinditive desires anyway.

    I've written SWG off. I tried the beta on the TC and I tried it today with my main toon; I hated it and I'm glad I already canceled my subscription. My priority now is to find something to replace it; I'm about to try City of Vilains.

    The pointless mud slinging between the pro-NGE and anti-NGE camps is getting slightly annoying. The anti-NGE just want to vent a little steam, which is fine - I've done a little of it myself. The pro-NGE people just need to ignore them and get on with playing the game. SOE/Lucas aren't going to look at forum posts for how well the NGE has been received, they're going to look at subscriber numbers.

  • kefkahkefkah Member UncommonPosts: 832

    Well, the thread list is long enough as it is so I will keep it short.

    Massive changes to anything is like performing brain surgery. Delicate, detailed and should be planned out in every way. The idea of these changes are like brain surgery also in the fact as they are only done to save the patient or perhaps greatly improve the general quality of their day to day existence. The question is how much change can one playerbase stand in any given amount of time?

    Grudgingly I admit that SOE's proposed changes are a step in the right direction but I will be first in line to also state that this was NOT elective surgery. The playerbase (the people who pay for the game to exist) had no idea that there was another group working on altering the game to such a degree. Had they known, I assure you that they would have...stepped up to the plate and offered to help with thoughts, ideas, suggestions and even gone so far as to log it in triplicate.  

    The real problem is that SOE never ever seriously asks its community for its opinion and if by accident that they do - they tend to ignore it unless it affects server populations. Fan bois and the like - call them what you will by hell or high water SWG's hardcore players are tougher than a cochroach on steroids and they have stood by their game with incredible resolve. How are the rewarded? They aren't asked and are grouped along with people who don't even play the game.

    You want something to ask about or ponder...here are some issues:

    1. Is it fair to lead on several groups on long suffering class players with detailed promises of revamps and then pull this revamp out that effectively removes their profession? Ask a ranger. How can any company be trusted with your money and TIME if it makes a practice of lying to you for what they consider is your greater good?

    2. Is it possible to attract more people to a game where 3 seperate groups were alienated? The hologrinder era, the CU changes and now this? There is no movie to help out this time. When it comes to a bad rep, SWG seems to be on par with the Flying Dutchman.

    3. Can overwhelming changes be put in place that are "good for the game" without asking the people who pay to play it? How can you know what is good for the game if you don't ask the people who know it best. True they disagree alot but the ideas are there and they have been know to come together for a cause they believe in.

    4. When the standard start of an MMORPG is one where they have forums ask the community what they would like to see in the upcoming game - can an isolated think tank group of marketing reps and designers put out a product that the players will enjoy and gasp respect?

    5. How much of a system can you change and still call it the same game? If you put the wheel of fortune on Jeopardy and replaced Alex with Pat Sajack but kept the name and dimly lit background...

  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529


    Originally posted by Dis_Ordur
    Originally posted by Shdwcaster
    Oh, and if the Squidi posting here is the same Squidi that used to run the A Modest Destiny site, just ignore him. Arguing with this guy is like wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
    LMAO!!!!


    HAHA that is great!

    I normally use..

    "Don't argue with a crazy person. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • MutantBeingXMutantBeingX Member Posts: 19

    The heart of the changes has been hit, pretty much in all posts, but interjecting my own thoughts.  One thing that comes to mind through all these changes has been the overall actions and expressed feelings of SOE Developers and employees.  If you don't agree with them, your better off not bothering to express it to them.  Posts get deleted if they don't like your opinon, and they never bother to try and make any attempt to get true feedback.  They only stem off hte positive, if you don't agree, then your wrong.  They spend so much time trying to silent the upset, and they take forever trying to handle the things they need to take care of working on, namely bug reports. 

    Key example, I had a character on Corbantis, an armorsmith, was surveying resources and found a real good strain of steel, I followed it right to the map border.  Put down my harvester, to my surprise, it was put out of bounds, too far to activate the menu options to pull it up.  Harvesters are suppose to burn up if they drop too low in maintanance.  I had noticed that my lot count still had that one as being used.  Submitted a report monthly, never got a single response.  Then they added system messages regarding harvesters.  Suddenly I was getting a system message daily that my harvester was at 13%.  I submitted a report daily for the first few months, then tappered off to weekly.  For over a year this went on.  NOT ONE SINGLE NOTE, COMMENT.... Nothing, yet, when I finally had enough, with the nerfs to missions, other professions I chose, namely Creature Handler.  When I finally reached that point when I have felt totally disrespected, and voiced my opinions, the response was that I was being whining.  After all, if I had problems in-game, they have bug reports and if I didn't like changes I could try something else.  For several months I kept screen shots of Forums posts before and after Tiggs and others went in and selectively pruned.

    SOE's main problem is simple at best.  They forget the chain that goes from the person paying the monthly subscription to their paycheck.  Most of the kids they are trying to please are the one's that tomorrow will be so bored that they will go find something else to do, and the one's that understand loyalty have been run off due to lack of respect.

  • i'msocooli'msocool Member Posts: 24

    i dont really think that this new idea is a really good 1 for alot of reasons

    1.the swg games were not the best in the world

    2.maybe ppl will come if the subscrition fee was gone

    3.i dont think this game will be so attracting to non swg fans (or die hard fans)

    4.after the last swg game i think ppl are done with the idea all together

     

  • chlaoschlaos Member Posts: 1,118



    Originally posted by Lepidus

    Hello everyone,
    I'm writing an article on SWG and the concept of making large changes to an existing game after launch. I wanted to get some thoughts from you guys before I publish it.
    What do you think of the theory and then specifically how it has been applied to SWG?
    Thanks in advance,



    Incremental and gradual change and good, indeed necessarry.   But, the huge sweeping changes that we have seen in SWG not one but twice now in the last six months are not just a bad idea, they are in fact a travesty.   Such changes break any sense of loyalty and trust that the devs had with the player base, who for the most part had remained loyal through all the bugs and floundering.   I personally had played continually since launch and honestly couldnt have imagined ever cancelling.  Now I cant imagine staying any longer than it takes me to give away my stuff and make sure I have the contact information on my ingame friends and perhaps discuss what game to go to next.

    In addition to the loss of trust, one even more insidious result of these changes has been the destruction of the SWG community.   One thing that kept me going through all the negatives of the  game were the close connections I made ingame, connections born of a genuine love of the game and subject matter.   However, with each new change the community is divided between fanbois willing to execpt anything the devs do and the others who prefer the game the way it was.   So a wedge is driven between the palyers and all the while the numbers are dwindling away as vets give up in frustration.   Next thing I know, these friends ive made over the years are no longer online or we disagree so much that we dont communicate much any more.  

    I know this is a game, put it has been my choice of how to spend my free time over the past three years (roughly) and as such I feel I have invested a good deal of energy into making the game better.   I have had a great time ingame and hopefully will remember it fondly, at some point.  However, at the moment I feel a great deal of anger and sadness, and yes betrayal.  

    It will be a cold day in hell before I ever play another SOE or LucasArts geme.   So, yeah I guess that pretty much sums up how I feel about sweeping changes midgame.  LOL.....

    By the way, thanks for adressing the subject matter it is one that needs to be talked about in my opinion.   

    "The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin

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