Originally posted by Jheron Well this may be true for some people but I wouldn't say it was the majority. I had so much time and energy invested in this game. I had a profession that I worked hard to attain and was proud of my accomplishment. I had weapons and resources that I had also worked to acquire. I had helped build a community, a cyber town with real people behind the avatars. People I cared about.
Everything you listed was in terms of accumulation. Just listen to the words you used. Invested. Attain. Accomplishment. Aquire. You not only didn't disprove my statement, you provided me a strong defense.
SWG in it's orginal form had so much potential.
Potential it never lived up to, even remote. Potential which even the developers gave up on finding. It was just potential, and nothing more. It never existed.
Now we have franken-SWG (NGE). The scope and depth is now gone.
SWG was not a particularly deep game. Most of the decisions you could make in the game were significantly weighted, and in many cases, completely dominant. In pre-CU SWG, the Teras Kasi + Doc template was so far superior to anything else that if your goal was to accumulate wealth and goods or even to participate in PvP, you didn't have a choice.
The NGE doesn't remove much depth because SWG never had much to lose. There is plenty of potential depth in the NGE, though it will take several updates to start seeing it. However, unlike the old system, the NGE's professions are kind of a solved equation, and even if they just copy Warcraft, they'll find far more depth than scrounging around in the dark with the unmanagable old system.
Whether you like the NGE or not it isn't the vision that was SWG.
I believe that was the point. It was a deeply flawed vision and they couldn't fix it. The only person who understood that vision was Raph Koster, and he doesn't work on SWG anymore.
Could it have been prevented if they would have listened to their community? Possibly.
It's kind of hard to hear anything worth hearing over the screams of self absorbed agony.
They love the game and many feel that if our ideas had been heeded things might have been different. Now we'll never know. /shrug /sigh
I do know, and the game would've been pure shit if we followed your collective suggestions. Let me explain why.
The Jedi are concerned with the quality of their class. They do all sorts of tests and find out that Jedi's do 1.3 dps less than a Bounty Hunter - this is a huge advantage in PvP, so the Jedi demand to have their DPS increased. The problem is, Jedi can also have significant healing powers, as can the bounty hunters if they template it that way. So a Bounty Hunter without healing will always lose to a Jedi with healing because everything else is equal. This will cause the Bounty Hunters to complain, and Jedi healing will be put on a longer timer. Causing the Jedi to start complaining. Meanwhile, the other 28 professions get absolutely no attention what so ever.
Everybody is only interested in their own classes, and whatever advantages they want, that's what they'll suggest. They have a vested interest in the well being of their own class, so ANY change which nerfs that class, even if it balances everything else properly, will be seen as a slap in the face. Players can't understand "taking one for the team", and their suggestions are universally self centered and focused on improving their own class's performance - and that is NOT how you balance or design games.
If your entire reason for disliking the NGE is that you think you could do better, well, get over yourself. I promise you that you can not and would not have.
Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
LOL....yep, its so damn fun that last night (Sat. night) there were maybe five people on Tatooine on my server. The whole place is a ghost town. Last night was the last night of my subscription and I logged on just to say bye to any friends and see if they wanted my stuff. Now Ive been playing continously since the first week of launch and there were over sixty active people on my friends list prior to the nge, but not a single one on all night.
Anyway, I know that proves nothing to anyone but me, but it tells me all I need to know. I might add that with the free trial, Mos Eisley should have been packed. Well, enjoy this drivel till they shut down the game. I imagine the timer is running.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
The game has been dumbed down (crafting is finished) to appeal to the 10-17 yr olds who run around screaming I pwned you. If you think otherwise you should really grow up.
Combat system is more of a hack and slash than that of a mmorpg. (think of a game with the worse combat system ever and that's what it looks like.)
Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
Oh ya it was a blast trying to live with no innate armor doing missions and feeling like I was one of 10 other people on naritus most of the weekend during the daytime. Hugely fun having to do twice as many keystrokes as I did before to accomplish the same thing. Oh and VERY fun when I have to try to chase something around, keep my pointer on the mob and watch my toon have a jerratric fit that is supposed to be "faster combat" while swinging away at an unrealistic speed.
HUGE FUN AA!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Did you finally try it El? Did I miss your review of it?
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I personally hate $OE for a number of reasons, repeated many times on this forum.
But...
NGE is the right way forward for SWG.
I remember playing SWG for the first time and thinking this system is a bit crap and after 3 months of mastering two professions I cancelled my account because there is very little to do.
At least this system they can expand on it.
And give them a chance, this is the first real change where they have consulted the player base, its like B+ could do a lot better, I personally hope they do.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Originally posted by Fadeus Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Did you finally try it El? Did I miss your review of it?
LOL "Impressions of the NGE" is my review.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by metalcore I personally hate $OE for a number of reasons, repeated many times on this forum. But... NGE is the right way forward for SWG. I remember playing SWG for the first time and thinking this system is a bit crap and after 3 months of mastering two professions I cancelled my account because there is very little to do. At least this system they can expand on it. And give them a chance, this is the first real change where they have consulted the player base, its like B+ could do a lot better, I personally hope they do.
What? A B+? They released a level system that requires you to quest to attain XP but left players hanging after CL30 in a 90CL game? Don't think so. I'd rate that as an F alone. Then tack on that they removed any inter-class diversity by locking players into their skill choices. What you get is what you get, period. No choice. Then add in that in order to try another class you either re-roll, start a char on another server or wait till you've been playing a year to get a 'restart kit' that just wipes your char back to level 1 0xp and lets you choose a new 'class'.
Next add that they KNEW this was a game that was already live with players across the entire spectrum of CL's and then think about the fact that they only added quest content up to CL30.... so anyone that's between CL30 and CL70 is stuck with no way to level except, yup... that's right... GRIND... and they have to grind in a new XP system that is 1/20th the speed of the old method. The XP NERF is *huge* I tried it on a friend's account and the XP payouts are abyssmal for grinding. So anyone at or beyond CL30 is screwed till they can get to CL70 and go to mustafar.
F in my book. B+ for NEW players ONLY, and *only* if you like a pure class/level system with no skill choice at all.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator What? A B+? They released a level system that requires you to quest to attain XP but left players hanging after CL30 in a 90CL game? Don't think so. I'd rate that as an F alone.
I know you are upset, but you don't have to be upset and stupid at the same time. You think the game is going to stay like this forever? You think that after the NGE, they'll never make a change to the game ever again? It takes time and they WILL do it, and probably before the first casual player with a life outside of bitching in forums about things they can't change reaches level 30 in the first place.
Then tack on that they removed any inter-class diversity by locking players into their skill choices. What you get is what you get, period. No choice. Then add in that in order to try another class you either re-roll, start a char on another server or wait till you've been playing a year to get a 'restart kit' that just wipes your char back to level 1 0xp and lets you choose a new 'class'.
Again, you just aren't appreciating that the NGE is the first step in a rather significant plan. Already, they've changed how the GCW works, and have already strongly hinted that the next expansion will concern the GCW. The game is changing into something else. For instance, they've mentioned that they are working on talent trees and other ways for classes to differentiate themselves, and as soon as they have the design set in stone, they'll share what it is (they have to wait, because if they tell you intentions that may change, you'll bitch that they broke promises).
The guy gave it a B+. That's his opinion. You attacked it because he disagreed with you. He has every right to give it a B+ as you do an F, which is why I take time to come down here and defend the NGE. I like the NGE just fine, but it's the fact that you and the other trolls here actively hate and attack anyone who likes it that bothers me. So, feel free to share your opinions, but do it respectably. Only start ONE thread and don't post attacks and insults in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD ON THE BOARD (Shayde, I'm looking at you). And then, when someone else shares their opinion, which may be contrary to yours, shut the hell up and afford them the same respect they gave you when you were spouting your self important crap.
Originally posted by Squidi Again, you just aren't appreciating that the NGE is the first step in a rather significant plan. Already, they've changed how the GCW works, and have already strongly hinted that the next expansion will concern the GCW. The game is changing into something else. For instance, they've mentioned that they are working on talent trees and other ways for classes to differentiate themselves, and as soon as they have the design set in stone, they'll share what it is (they have to wait, because if they tell you intentions that may change, you'll bitch that they broke promises).
Some people really will believe anything. I'll bet you still believe in the tooth-fairy too. Wake up man, they did the CU and the NGE because they couldn't be bothered to fix bugs or add content. In over 2 years they've increased the number of bugs, many of which are still there from launch and have reduced content. The game is indeed changing into something else, a shadow of what it once was and could have been. All the positives you and the other SOE cheerleaders think are coming have already been 'coming' since beta. They'll actually arrive about the same time as Duke Nukem Forever (ie never).
Originally posted by SonOfAGhost Some people really will believe anything. I'll bet you still believe in the tooth-fairy too.
And some people are too jaded and/or stupid to believe anything, even in the face of overwhelming logic and evidence.
Wake up man, they did the CU and the NGE because they couldn't be bothered to fix bugs or add content.
They DID fix bugs and add content. There's just too many bugs and too little content, and spending all that precious time trying to fix a fundamentally flawed system was taking away from that. Instead of fixing bugs, they were revamping Squad Leader. Instead of adding content, they were revamping Creature Handler. What little time they had left over was spent adding in as many bug fixes and content as they could - and I agree, it wasn't enough. But they just added 130 quests and a newbie station WHILE simultaneously revamping the game signficantly and releasing an entire expansion in just six months. We didn't see that effort at the time and thought six months were spent doing nothing. They were quite busy.
In over 2 years they've increased the number of bugs, many of which are still there from launch and have reduced content.
Reduced content? I can't believe I spent this long replying only to discover that you are, in fact, an idiot. Reduced content? There have been THREE large expansions! Seriously, I can't have a discussion with someone who is so willing to throw out obvious facts just to be a dick.
All the positives you and the other SOE cheerleaders think are coming have already been 'coming' since beta.
Really? Because I thought the beta promises - the real promises that actually existed - came through. or else, I haven't been driving my speeder bike around my player city before taking my X-Wing into space.
Originally posted by metalcore I personally hate $OE for a number of reasons, repeated many times on this forum. But... NGE is the right way forward for SWG. I remember playing SWG for the first time and thinking this system is a bit crap and after 3 months of mastering two professions I cancelled my account because there is very little to do. At least this system they can expand on it. And give them a chance, this is the first real change where they have consulted the player base, its like B+ could do a lot better, I personally hope they do.
If by consulted you mean did the exact opposite of what they wanted then I can agree with that statement. If you mean consulted as in followed THERE procedures for development, got player feedback, alpha tested it, used ALL there correspondants and did extensive bug testing then you sir are a total nut case if you think any of that occurred.
A B+ would mean 85-90% of the game now is working. So from lvl 31-90 with zero content to do what does that tell you...
SOE here is a gentle clue. You have 200,000 players playing the game. Most probably where at or near lvl 80 with at least 1 character. Our subscribtion fee goes towards more content. So to fill that need you introduced quests for lvl 1-30. Basically for all new players while making it impossible for veterns to lvl. Now you wonder why veterns feel cheated?
Combat in SWG might "live", but some of us are paying the price. Some of us didn't play the game for the combat. Now crafters/entertainers can "live" with a gutted and pointless crafting system or respec to combat at CL1. I quess we should be honored to lay down our game so the PvP can be quickly and easily balanced without the Devs having to waste precious time on ent/craft.
They killed crafting/player driven economy! You bas****s!
Lol, so after 2.5 years we're supposed to all of a sudden have faith in SOE/LA? Wow, I need more clients like you.
After 2.5 years of a great concept, which players endured numerous bugs, nerfs, and over extending revamps, SOE/LA releases a fundamentally different game giving their current player base two weeks notice. Added to that is the fact SOE/LA got caught trying to sneak in an expansion pack. Although free to vets now, happens to be required to level past CL30. So while SOE/LA were hard at work on their new product, it seems they forgot to hire a QA team ... again.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I have played SWG for around 18 months. I personally do not see this game making it to the four year mark in this market. Most people who play PC games do so because there is a vast diffence from playing a console game. I did not sign up for this game because it was easy to learn, I signed up because it was complex. SOE/LA have slowly whittled away the complexity until it is a twitcher that is barely above a console game.
As for taking 3-6 months to reach CL90 sorry that went out the door the momment NGE hit the server. Realistically that 3-6 months turns into 3-6 days. I have reached CL90 already.
Do I want to play anymore NO! Why? There is no high level content for CL80-90. There are no long term goals. No more challenges, they took those away by making me play in LARGE high level groups.
They released the NGE before it was complete, which is centered on the NEW PLAYER, THE CONSOLE GAMER WHO WANTS TO PLAY ON THE COMPUTER NOW. They are trying to tap into the console gamer market by luring the young and inexperienced to the PC game market. They make the game simplier and easier for them. They are trying to reach out to the masses before the holiday shopping and try to get them to buy SWG PC game, instead of a console game.
Remember this one thing: They do this for money! Not just your entertainment, but for as many people as possible.
Originally posted by IcoGames Lol, so after 2.5 years we're supposed to all of a sudden have faith in SOE/LA? Wow, I need more clients like you.
Of course not. You are free to quit the game and shut the hell up so that those of us that still play can actually talk with each other in peace and feel out the new system without some heckler insulting us for even trying from the sidelines. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a conversation on this or any other message board without some jerk destroying the thread and turning it into very, very stupid "witty" comments and being yelled at for expressing a positive opinion on the NGE. The trolls are running the asylum, and I wish they'd fucking shut up.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by IcoGames Lol, so after 2.5 years we're supposed to all of a sudden have faith in SOE/LA? Wow, I need more clients like you.
Of course not. You are free to quit the game and shut the hell up so that those of us that still play can actually talk with each other in peace and feel out the new system without some heckler insulting us for even trying from the sidelines. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a conversation on this or any other message board without some jerk destroying the thread and turning it into very, very stupid "witty" comments and being yelled at for expressing a positive opinion on the NGE. The trolls are running the asylum, and I wish they'd fucking shut up.
Go to the $OE boards if you want your save haven. They delete negative posts there.
Here, both sides are represented.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Of course not. You are free to quit the game and shut the hell up so that those of us that still play can actually talk with each other in peace and feel out the new system without some heckler insulting us for even trying from the sidelines. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a conversation on this or any other message board without some jerk destroying the thread and turning it into very, very stupid "witty" comments and being yelled at for expressing a positive opinion on the NGE. The trolls are running the asylum, and I wish they'd fucking shut up.
Some people play games to accumulate. Whether it be wealth, power, prestige, stuff, or whatever, they enjoy a game only so long as they are gaining something. When a big change hits, positive or negative, that stuff that they've accumulated's value changes, and if it goes down in any way (even moderately), it is a bad thing. Sometimes "nerfs", as they are called, are required for balance lest the system run into an out of control buff spiral (buffed Jedi, now have to buff Bounty Hunter, oh no, Jedi need to be buffed now). That's okay with them, but the loss of something they distinctly believe to be theirs, even if it is something as stupid as a pistol, is a travesty that cuts through to their very self image. It cuts deep and they just can't move on. It's really quite sad.
Everything you listed was in terms of accumulation. Just listen to the words you used. Invested. Attain. Accomplishment. Aquire. You not only didn't disprove my statement, you provided me a strong defense.
Your original post said accumulate. An accomplishment or an achievement is not accumulation. Yes I did state that things accumulated were lost but my focus was not on them alone. Which is my point. You seem to think it's all about amassing and I was trying to point out that that was only one aspect of many of the veterans complaints. I also didn't go into the whole aspect of profession limitation which has nothing to do with accumulation either. You're trying to one dimensionalize the argument which is not giving the veterans or their opinions much credit.
Potential it never lived up to, even remote. Potential which even the developers gave up on finding. It was just potential, and nothing more. It never existed.
The developers didn't give up on it, management did. Had they listened to their community they might have realized a bit more of that potential. Oh and by the way saying "It never existed" you're in effect contradicting yourself since in the previous sentences you clearly accept that it did.
SWG was not a particularly deep game. Most of the decisions you could make in the game were significantly weighted, and in many cases, completely dominant. In pre-CU SWG, the Teras Kasi + Doc template was so far superior to anything else that if your goal was to accumulate wealth and goods or even to participate in PvP, you didn't have a choice.
The NGE doesn't remove much depth because SWG never had much to lose. There is plenty of potential depth in the NGE, though it will take several updates to start seeing it. However, unlike the old system, the NGE's professions are kind of a solved equation, and even if they just copy Warcraft, they'll find far more depth than scrounging around in the dark with the unmanagable old system.
When I spoke of depth I wasn't merely speaking of combat or template choices. I was talking about the economy as well as other aspects that included combat and professions. And for the record I would have loved to take on a TKM/Doc with my TKM/Mswords/4xxx Fencer/xx4x Pikeman pre-CU. TKM was sweet but it didn't have the offensive output that some of the other melee profs did. So this idea that PVP temps were boiled down to 1 temp is not accurate. The NGE completely kills Crafters, Dancers, Artisans, Docs, CH, BE, Jedi, etc. You can't make a change like that without affecting your depth significantly. Most people don't want their profession equation solved for them. They don't want to be told what they can or can't do.
I believe that was the point. It was a deeply flawed vision and they couldn't fix it. The only person who understood that vision was Raph Koster, and he doesn't work on SWG anymore.
Yes it was flawed, so is the NGE. But the NGE is flawed in many more ways than the original system ever was. They couldn't fix the flawed original system because they weren't listening to people who were trying to give honest feedback on the BUGs boards. And no Ralph wasn't the only one who understood that vision there were many others.
It's kind of hard to hear anything worth hearing over the screams of self absorbed agony.
Oversimplification again. Were there people complaining just to complain? Of course ever game has them. Were there people trying to give honest and constructive feedback? Yes lots of them. Did they listen? Hell no!
I do know, and the game would've been pure shit if we followed your collective suggestions. Let me explain why.
The Jedi are concerned with the quality of their class. They do all sorts of tests and find out that Jedi's do 1.3 dps less than a Bounty Hunter - this is a huge advantage in PvP, so the Jedi demand to have their DPS increased. The problem is, Jedi can also have significant healing powers, as can the bounty hunters if they template it that way. So a Bounty Hunter without healing will always lose to a Jedi with healing because everything else is equal. This will cause the Bounty Hunters to complain, and Jedi healing will be put on a longer timer. Causing the Jedi to start complaining. Meanwhile, the other 28 professions get absolutely no attention what so ever.
Everybody is only interested in their own classes, and whatever advantages they want, that's what they'll suggest. They have a vested interest in the well being of their own class, so ANY change which nerfs that class, even if it balances everything else properly, will be seen as a slap in the face. Players can't understand "taking one for the team", and their suggestions are universally self centered and focused on improving their own class's performance - and that is NOT how you balance or design games.
If your entire reason for disliking the NGE is that you think you could do better, well, get over yourself. I promise you that you can not and would not have.
Your example is flawed, and thus your conclusion, in that not only is it looking at only one type of complaint of which there were many but it also makes the assumption that SOE/LA can't look at all issues with the Big Picture in mind and make the final decision. Of course players are going to inform or complain from their own avatars perspective as they should. However there were some community members who were capable of this type detached 50k foot level evaluation, but as in life not all are. It's not the job of the individual community members to take into account the Big Picture, that's SOE/LA's job. Nor is it the job of SOE/LA to implement every suggestion. They need to use a shopping cart method and choose to implement those suggestions that work for the community as a whole.
Did professions take nerf bullets for the team? Of course. Did all the people that play that profession take the nerf stoically? No. Do they speak for everyone? Of course not. Just to prove that you're oversimplyfying again lets look at the speed nerf that happened recently. MCM got a -40 speed debuff increase and Jedi had their force speed 2 reduced from +40 to +20. Did we complain? Sure many did but most of us realized it was needed in some way and that there were bigger issues to deal with. There were also many like myself that said ok we understand the need for this adjustment but can we look at the levels of it and consider an adjustment. Or another example is the Jedi heal cool down timer. Many agreed there needed to be one we just wanted to have more input about how much of a cool down there was. Yes people complained no matter what the nerf was but most recognized inbalance and were willing to accept changes as long as those changes could be monitored and fine tuned.
I agree with you that listening to every complaint and acting on it is no way to balance or design games. That is why it should never be done. You take the complaints that are related and coming from multiple sources and you eveluate the situation from every perspective and then decide a course of action. It's called being responsive not reactive.
As far as your last line. I don't understand why you feel the need to resort to a personal attack when this forum is for the explicit purpose of people stating their opinions. However I will say that I didn't say that I could have done better I was saying WE as a team could have done better had management and the dev team chosen to listen to us and communicate with us. If you're unsure of the communitites issues just ask. Run a poll do something to tap the wealth of information they posses about your game.
Your original post said accumulate. An accomplishment or an achievement is not accumulation. Yes I did state that things accumulated were lost but my focus was not on them alone. Which is my point. You seem to think it's all about amassing and I was trying to point out that that was only one aspect of many of the veterans complaints. I also didn't go into the whole aspect of profession limitation which has nothing to do with accumulation either. You're trying to one dimensionalize the argument which is not giving the veterans or their opinions much credit.
Perhaps I was over generalizing, but it is pretty obvious that the main complaint against the NGE is that you lose stuff. People only play the game to gain something, and when that something is reduced in value, the time spent trying to get it was also reduced in value. There was a thread talking about decay kits, and someone honestly believed that the money he paid to play the game for so many months to unlock that vet reward was dued back to him. It's the same deal with Jump to Lightspeed. Now that it is free, people forget that they've been playing it for over a year. They see only that the value has diminished and they want compensation on that value alone... playing the game is its own reward. If you play the game just to get a particular phat loot and not to socialize, adventure, or have fun, then you deserve to get screwed when that loot is taken away.
The developers didn't give up on it, management did. Had they listened to their community they might have realized a bit more of that potential. Oh and by the way saying "It never existed" you're in effect contradicting yourself since in the previous sentences you clearly accept that it did.
The devs distinctly gave up on it. Trust me. I've been a programmer for 15 years, and there is no way a company conspiracy this large could occur unless everyone believed in it. Just one guy who was opposed would've leaked the information out of spite, and that didn't happen. They were behind this change because they weren't behind what was already there. It was a mess, and even long time players can't help but agree on that point. And the potential existed, but the realization of that potential never did. Whatever game you think fondly back on did not exist.
When I spoke of depth I wasn't merely speaking of combat or template choices. I was talking about the economy as well as other aspects that included combat and professions.
Neither was I. It was just an example of how there was an illusion of depth that failed to manifest due to a fundamentally flawed system. The player economy is a completely different subject, but it was deeply flawed to begin with - in the crafter's favor, but flawed none the less.
Yes it was flawed, so is the NGE. But the NGE is flawed in many more ways than the original system ever was. They couldn't fix the flawed original system because they weren't listening to people who were trying to give honest feedback on the BUGs boards. And no Ralph wasn't the only one who understood that vision there were many others.
The NGE is flawed in implementation, but it is fundamentally similar to the same level progression system that has been refined throughout the history of online rpgs. The implementation can improve, but the theory behind it is plenty solid as it is. As for Koster's vision, again, I can have a lengthy discussion about how it was flawed (FUNDAMENTALLY and UNFIXABLE), but perhaps a different thread would be more appropriate. Just know that I doubt anyone, Koster included, could've seen old SWG through to it's potential, and I say that not as a 14 year old kid in a forum with a self esteem problem, but as someone who has extensive experience in these matters.
Oversimplification again. Were there people complaining just to complain? Of course ever game has them. Were there people trying to give honest and constructive feedback? Yes lots of them. Did they listen? Hell no!
My point is that the people who had honest complaints were impossible to hear due to the excussive trolling. If you really wanted to be heard, you'd be out there telling those people who turn every thread into a flamewar to shut the hell up with the rest of us. I don't think the NGE is perfect, but I do like it - and I can't share either opinion indepth without it turning into yet another "NGE SUX!!!11" thread. There are people out there trying to share true constructive criticism, both for and against the NGE, but those threads get buried under a mountain of trash.
Another thing that needs to be considered is that SOE knows a lot more than they are letting on. They know what they've heard and we don't. Just because we don't get an immediate response doesn't mean that they didn't hear it. In some cases, as with the NGE, that's the course of action and they can't change it now, so even if you do hate it, that's just too bad. But if you can suggest ways to improve it without being a complete dick, they MAY hear you, but they may not be able to respond just yet. People are complaining about the lack of class diversity, and they've said that there will be talent trees and other things, but they can't comment on it yet. They can't just go, "hey, that's a good idea" because people will mistake it as a promise to implement that feature. They need to test it out, balance it, and see if it really is a good suggestion before announcing it to the world. But if it isn't a good suggestion, and most of them aren't, they can't just go into the forums and say, "sorry, but this is a crappy suggestion" even if they give a good reason because that will upset people even more. So they say nothing. They may hear, but they can't always respond, and they won't always agree - and there's nothing you can do about it except have patience and perhaps a little bit of faith. If you can't muster it, then nobody would blame you for walking away from SWG.
it also makes the assumption that SOE/LA can't look at all issues with the Big Picture in mind and make the final decision.
Under the previous system, I don't think they could see the big picture. Maybe now, even if it means looking to WoW for inspiration, they can.
It's not the job of the individual community members to take into account the Big Picture, that's SOE/LA's job. Nor is it the job of SOE/LA to implement every suggestion.
That's fine, but if you can't see the big picture and they don't implement your suggestions, then you have no right to complain.
I agree with you that listening to every complaint and acting on it is no way to balance or design games. That is why it should never be done. You take the complaints that are related and coming from multiple sources and you eveluate the situation from every perspective and then decide a course of action. It's called being responsive not reactive.
I'm not sure SOE has been doing this to the best of their ability, but I'm not really sure what their best is. However, I think they did this early on and got a little too carried away with listening to the population. They don't understand why their suggestions suck - all they see is that so-and-so got his idea implemented for jedis while their own crappy suggestion for smugglers didn't get done, so OMG!!! The DEVS LUV JEDIZ!
SOE needed to be far more hard edged on their community relations early on, and they are paying for it now. They literally have a playerbase made up with as many 14 year old boys as 30 year old men, and they all want different games, and they are all upset when they don't get them. SOE needed to lay down the line and say, okay, this is the game we want to make. Help us make this game. They are doing this now - very definitely - but the spoiled playerbase is getting upset because it's still not the game they want (though it is the game that some people want).
What can I say? This, the NGE, is the game the developers want to make. They've made it quite clear, and they listen to suggestions that make the NGE better and not to suggestions to change the NGE or otherwise remove it. There won't be a pre-NGE server. This is SWG from now on, and either you can help them achieve their vision better, or you can quit. We're playing in their vision, they are not developing ours. That's a hard pill to swallow, but what are you going to do? Complain in a forum?
As far as your last line. I don't understand why you feel the need to resort to a personal attack when this forum is for the explicit purpose of people stating their opinions. However I will say that I didn't say that I could have done better I was saying WE as a team could have done better had management and the dev team chosen to listen to us and communicate with us. If you're unsure of the communitites issues just ask. Run a poll do something to tap the wealth of information they posses about your game. And I'm saying that you can't do better. WE can't do better. I know what the issues are, and in many cases I sympathize. However, that doesn't mean that their solutions work either individually or as part as the complex webwork that makes up SWG. I wasn't being mean or rude. I'm just saying that your opinion on what the perfect solution would be won't work. It can't work. It's easy to write in your sig saying "nyah nyah, I was right! the CU did suck!" but that's just a value judgement and every troll on the internet has one of those (always negative too). But to offer up real solutions is something completely different and beyond the capabilities of most people. I don't know how to put it easily, but the soon you stop thinking you know the answer, the sooner you'll see that the NGE is a better one than you ever had.
Originally posted by anarchyart Plust the NGE is damn fun!
LOL....yep, its so damn fun that last night (Sat. night) there were maybe five people on Tatooine on my server. The whole place is a ghost town. Last night was the last night of my subscription and I logged on just to say bye to any friends and see if they wanted my stuff. Now Ive been playing continously since the first week of launch and there were over sixty active people on my friends list prior to the nge, but not a single one on all night.
Anyway, I know that proves nothing to anyone but me, but it tells me all I need to know. I might add that with the free trial, Mos Eisley should have been packed. Well, enjoy this drivel till they shut down the game. I imagine the timer is running.
I loved this game and played as much as anyone I know of.
Started out with 8 RL friends, 3 closed after the CU, the rest including me now.
Even if I could deal with the NGE who would I play with, Wait for the 4 year olds to come and go, I dont thinks so.
Comments
The NGE doesn't remove much depth because SWG never had much to lose. There is plenty of potential depth in the NGE, though it will take several updates to start seeing it. However, unlike the old system, the NGE's professions are kind of a solved equation, and even if they just copy Warcraft, they'll find far more depth than scrounging around in the dark with the unmanagable old system.
I believe that was the point. It was a deeply flawed vision and they couldn't fix it. The only person who understood that vision was Raph Koster, and he doesn't work on SWG anymore. It's kind of hard to hear anything worth hearing over the screams of self absorbed agony. I do know, and the game would've been pure shit if we followed your collective suggestions. Let me explain why.The Jedi are concerned with the quality of their class. They do all sorts of tests and find out that Jedi's do 1.3 dps less than a Bounty Hunter - this is a huge advantage in PvP, so the Jedi demand to have their DPS increased. The problem is, Jedi can also have significant healing powers, as can the bounty hunters if they template it that way. So a Bounty Hunter without healing will always lose to a Jedi with healing because everything else is equal. This will cause the Bounty Hunters to complain, and Jedi healing will be put on a longer timer. Causing the Jedi to start complaining. Meanwhile, the other 28 professions get absolutely no attention what so ever.
Everybody is only interested in their own classes, and whatever advantages they want, that's what they'll suggest. They have a vested interest in the well being of their own class, so ANY change which nerfs that class, even if it balances everything else properly, will be seen as a slap in the face. Players can't understand "taking one for the team", and their suggestions are universally self centered and focused on improving their own class's performance - and that is NOT how you balance or design games.
If your entire reason for disliking the NGE is that you think you could do better, well, get over yourself. I promise you that you can not and would not have.
LOL....yep, its so damn fun that last night (Sat. night) there were maybe five people on Tatooine on my server. The whole place is a ghost town. Last night was the last night of my subscription and I logged on just to say bye to any friends and see if they wanted my stuff. Now Ive been playing continously since the first week of launch and there were over sixty active people on my friends list prior to the nge, but not a single one on all night.
Anyway, I know that proves nothing to anyone but me, but it tells me all I need to know. I might add that with the free trial, Mos Eisley should have been packed. Well, enjoy this drivel till they shut down the game. I imagine the timer is running.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
The game has been dumbed down (crafting is finished) to appeal to the 10-17 yr olds who run around screaming I pwned you. If you think otherwise you should really grow up.
Combat system is more of a hack and slash than that of a mmorpg. (think of a game with the worse combat system ever and that's what it looks like.)
Oh ya it was a blast trying to live with no innate armor doing missions and feeling like I was one of 10 other people on naritus most of the weekend during the daytime. Hugely fun having to do twice as many keystrokes as I did before to accomplish the same thing. Oh and VERY fun when I have to try to chase something around, keep my pointer on the mob and watch my toon have a jerratric fit that is supposed to be "faster combat" while swinging away at an unrealistic speed.
HUGE FUN AA!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Did you finally try it El? Did I miss your review of it?
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I personally hate $OE for a number of reasons, repeated many times on this forum.
But...
NGE is the right way forward for SWG.
I remember playing SWG for the first time and thinking this system is a bit crap and after 3 months of mastering two professions I cancelled my account because there is very little to do.
At least this system they can expand on it.
And give them a chance, this is the first real change where they have consulted the player base, its like B+ could do a lot better, I personally hope they do.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
I dissagree.
But this just proves that no matter WHAT SOE and LucasArts does to this game it will live on. They'll just continue to change it because it'll never live up to it's potential with a two headed hydra at the wheel.
Did you finally try it El? Did I miss your review of it?
LOL
"Impressions of the NGE" is my review.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
What? A B+? They released a level system that requires you to quest to attain XP but left players hanging after CL30 in a 90CL game? Don't think so. I'd rate that as an F alone. Then tack on that they removed any inter-class diversity by locking players into their skill choices. What you get is what you get, period. No choice. Then add in that in order to try another class you either re-roll, start a char on another server or wait till you've been playing a year to get a 'restart kit' that just wipes your char back to level 1 0xp and lets you choose a new 'class'.
Next add that they KNEW this was a game that was already live with players across the entire spectrum of CL's and then think about the fact that they only added quest content up to CL30.... so anyone that's between CL30 and CL70 is stuck with no way to level except, yup... that's right... GRIND... and they have to grind in a new XP system that is 1/20th the speed of the old method. The XP NERF is *huge* I tried it on a friend's account and the XP payouts are abyssmal for grinding. So anyone at or beyond CL30 is screwed till they can get to CL70 and go to mustafar.
F in my book. B+ for NEW players ONLY, and *only* if you like a pure class/level system with no skill choice at all.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
The guy gave it a B+. That's his opinion. You attacked it because he disagreed with you. He has every right to give it a B+ as you do an F, which is why I take time to come down here and defend the NGE. I like the NGE just fine, but it's the fact that you and the other trolls here actively hate and attack anyone who likes it that bothers me. So, feel free to share your opinions, but do it respectably. Only start ONE thread and don't post attacks and insults in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD ON THE BOARD (Shayde, I'm looking at you). And then, when someone else shares their opinion, which may be contrary to yours, shut the hell up and afford them the same respect they gave you when you were spouting your self important crap.
yea lol real fun
you must be a retarded monkey
dont forget to tell them everyone is doing the same quest
on the same planet (mustafar) wow to get xp you need the new expansion
for the same char (JEDI now that every lazy azz hola that didnt earn there jedi gets one free now.
2 accounts cancelled 2 thumbs down NGE
Negative Gaming Experience
Some people really will believe anything. I'll bet you still believe in the tooth-fairy too. Wake up man, they did the CU and the NGE because they couldn't be bothered to fix bugs or add content. In over 2 years they've increased the number of bugs, many of which are still there from launch and have reduced content. The game is indeed changing into something else, a shadow of what it once was and could have been. All the positives you and the other SOE cheerleaders think are coming have already been 'coming' since beta. They'll actually arrive about the same time as Duke Nukem Forever (ie never).
If by consulted you mean did the exact opposite of what they wanted then I can agree with that statement. If you mean consulted as in followed THERE procedures for development, got player feedback, alpha tested it, used ALL there correspondants and did extensive bug testing then you sir are a total nut case if you think any of that occurred.
A B+ would mean 85-90% of the game now is working. So from lvl 31-90 with zero content to do what does that tell you...
SOE here is a gentle clue. You have 200,000 players playing the game. Most probably where at or near lvl 80 with at least 1 character. Our subscribtion fee goes towards more content. So to fill that need you introduced quests for lvl 1-30. Basically for all new players while making it impossible for veterns to lvl. Now you wonder why veterns feel cheated?
Combat in SWG might "live", but some of us are paying the price. Some of us didn't play the game for the combat. Now crafters/entertainers can "live" with a gutted and pointless crafting system or respec to combat at CL1. I quess we should be honored to lay down our game so the PvP can be quickly and easily balanced without the Devs having to waste precious time on ent/craft.
They killed crafting/player driven economy! You bas****s!
Flame on.
Lol, so after 2.5 years we're supposed to all of a sudden have faith in SOE/LA? Wow, I need more clients like you.
After 2.5 years of a great concept, which players endured numerous bugs, nerfs, and over extending revamps, SOE/LA releases a fundamentally different game giving their current player base two weeks notice. Added to that is the fact SOE/LA got caught trying to sneak in an expansion pack. Although free to vets now, happens to be required to level past CL30. So while SOE/LA were hard at work on their new product, it seems they forgot to hire a QA team ... again.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I have played SWG for around 18 months. I personally do not see this game making it to the four year mark in this market. Most people who play PC games do so because there is a vast diffence from playing a console game. I did not sign up for this game because it was easy to learn, I signed up because it was complex. SOE/LA have slowly whittled away the complexity until it is a twitcher that is barely above a console game.
As for taking 3-6 months to reach CL90 sorry that went out the door the momment NGE hit the server. Realistically that 3-6 months turns into 3-6 days. I have reached CL90 already.
Do I want to play anymore NO! Why? There is no high level content for CL80-90. There are no long term goals. No more challenges, they took those away by making me play in LARGE high level groups.
They released the NGE before it was complete, which is centered on the NEW PLAYER, THE CONSOLE GAMER WHO WANTS TO PLAY ON THE COMPUTER NOW. They are trying to tap into the console gamer market by luring the young and inexperienced to the PC game market. They make the game simplier and easier for them. They are trying to reach out to the masses before the holiday shopping and try to get them to buy SWG PC game, instead of a console game.
Remember this one thing: They do this for money! Not just your entertainment, but for as many people as possible.
Go to the $OE boards if you want your save haven. They delete negative posts there.
Here, both sides are represented.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Some people play games to accumulate. Whether it be wealth, power, prestige, stuff, or whatever, they enjoy a game only so long as they are gaining something. When a big change hits, positive or negative, that stuff that they've accumulated's value changes, and if it goes down in any way (even moderately), it is a bad thing. Sometimes "nerfs", as they are called, are required for balance lest the system run into an out of control buff spiral (buffed Jedi, now have to buff Bounty Hunter, oh no, Jedi need to be buffed now). That's okay with them, but the loss of something they distinctly believe to be theirs, even if it is something as stupid as a pistol, is a travesty that cuts through to their very self image. It cuts deep and they just can't move on. It's really quite sad.
Everything you listed was in terms of accumulation. Just listen to the words you used. Invested. Attain. Accomplishment. Aquire. You not only didn't disprove my statement, you provided me a strong defense.
Your original post said accumulate. An accomplishment or an achievement is not accumulation. Yes I did state that things accumulated were lost but my focus was not on them alone. Which is my point. You seem to think it's all about amassing and I was trying to point out that that was only one aspect of many of the veterans complaints. I also didn't go into the whole aspect of profession limitation which has nothing to do with accumulation either. You're trying to one dimensionalize the argument which is not giving the veterans or their opinions much credit.
Potential it never lived up to, even remote. Potential which even the developers gave up on finding. It was just potential, and nothing more. It never existed.
The developers didn't give up on it, management did. Had they listened to their community they might have realized a bit more of that potential. Oh and by the way saying "It never existed" you're in effect contradicting yourself since in the previous sentences you clearly accept that it did.
SWG was not a particularly deep game. Most of the decisions you could make in the game were significantly weighted, and in many cases, completely dominant. In pre-CU SWG, the Teras Kasi + Doc template was so far superior to anything else that if your goal was to accumulate wealth and goods or even to participate in PvP, you didn't have a choice.
The NGE doesn't remove much depth because SWG never had much to lose. There is plenty of potential depth in the NGE, though it will take several updates to start seeing it. However, unlike the old system, the NGE's professions are kind of a solved equation, and even if they just copy Warcraft, they'll find far more depth than scrounging around in the dark with the unmanagable old system.
When I spoke of depth I wasn't merely speaking of combat or template choices. I was talking about the economy as well as other aspects that included combat and professions. And for the record I would have loved to take on a TKM/Doc with my TKM/Mswords/4xxx Fencer/xx4x Pikeman pre-CU. TKM was sweet but it didn't have the offensive output that some of the other melee profs did. So this idea that PVP temps were boiled down to 1 temp is not accurate. The NGE completely kills Crafters, Dancers, Artisans, Docs, CH, BE, Jedi, etc. You can't make a change like that without affecting your depth significantly. Most people don't want their profession equation solved for them. They don't want to be told what they can or can't do.
I believe that was the point. It was a deeply flawed vision and they couldn't fix it. The only person who understood that vision was Raph Koster, and he doesn't work on SWG anymore.
Yes it was flawed, so is the NGE. But the NGE is flawed in many more ways than the original system ever was. They couldn't fix the flawed original system because they weren't listening to people who were trying to give honest feedback on the BUGs boards. And no Ralph wasn't the only one who understood that vision there were many others.
It's kind of hard to hear anything worth hearing over the screams of self absorbed agony.
Oversimplification again. Were there people complaining just to complain? Of course ever game has them. Were there people trying to give honest and constructive feedback? Yes lots of them. Did they listen? Hell no!
I do know, and the game would've been pure shit if we followed your collective suggestions. Let me explain why.
The Jedi are concerned with the quality of their class. They do all sorts of tests and find out that Jedi's do 1.3 dps less than a Bounty Hunter - this is a huge advantage in PvP, so the Jedi demand to have their DPS increased. The problem is, Jedi can also have significant healing powers, as can the bounty hunters if they template it that way. So a Bounty Hunter without healing will always lose to a Jedi with healing because everything else is equal. This will cause the Bounty Hunters to complain, and Jedi healing will be put on a longer timer. Causing the Jedi to start complaining. Meanwhile, the other 28 professions get absolutely no attention what so ever.
Everybody is only interested in their own classes, and whatever advantages they want, that's what they'll suggest. They have a vested interest in the well being of their own class, so ANY change which nerfs that class, even if it balances everything else properly, will be seen as a slap in the face. Players can't understand "taking one for the team", and their suggestions are universally self centered and focused on improving their own class's performance - and that is NOT how you balance or design games.
If your entire reason for disliking the NGE is that you think you could do better, well, get over yourself. I promise you that you can not and would not have.
Your example is flawed, and thus your conclusion, in that not only is it looking at only one type of complaint of which there were many but it also makes the assumption that SOE/LA can't look at all issues with the Big Picture in mind and make the final decision. Of course players are going to inform or complain from their own avatars perspective as they should. However there were some community members who were capable of this type detached 50k foot level evaluation, but as in life not all are. It's not the job of the individual community members to take into account the Big Picture, that's SOE/LA's job. Nor is it the job of SOE/LA to implement every suggestion. They need to use a shopping cart method and choose to implement those suggestions that work for the community as a whole.
Did professions take nerf bullets for the team? Of course. Did all the people that play that profession take the nerf stoically? No. Do they speak for everyone? Of course not. Just to prove that you're oversimplyfying again lets look at the speed nerf that happened recently. MCM got a -40 speed debuff increase and Jedi had their force speed 2 reduced from +40 to +20. Did we complain? Sure many did but most of us realized it was needed in some way and that there were bigger issues to deal with. There were also many like myself that said ok we understand the need for this adjustment but can we look at the levels of it and consider an adjustment. Or another example is the Jedi heal cool down timer. Many agreed there needed to be one we just wanted to have more input about how much of a cool down there was. Yes people complained no matter what the nerf was but most recognized inbalance and were willing to accept changes as long as those changes could be monitored and fine tuned.
I agree with you that listening to every complaint and acting on it is no way to balance or design games. That is why it should never be done. You take the complaints that are related and coming from multiple sources and you eveluate the situation from every perspective and then decide a course of action. It's called being responsive not reactive.
As far as your last line. I don't understand why you feel the need to resort to a personal attack when this forum is for the explicit purpose of people stating their opinions. However I will say that I didn't say that I could have done better I was saying WE as a team could have done better had management and the dev team chosen to listen to us and communicate with us. If you're unsure of the communitites issues just ask. Run a poll do something to tap the wealth of information they posses about your game.
Your original post said accumulate. An accomplishment or an achievement is not accumulation. Yes I did state that things accumulated were lost but my focus was not on them alone. Which is my point. You seem to think it's all about amassing and I was trying to point out that that was only one aspect of many of the veterans complaints. I also didn't go into the whole aspect of profession limitation which has nothing to do with accumulation either. You're trying to one dimensionalize the argument which is not giving the veterans or their opinions much credit.
Perhaps I was over generalizing, but it is pretty obvious that the main complaint against the NGE is that you lose stuff. People only play the game to gain something, and when that something is reduced in value, the time spent trying to get it was also reduced in value. There was a thread talking about decay kits, and someone honestly believed that the money he paid to play the game for so many months to unlock that vet reward was dued back to him. It's the same deal with Jump to Lightspeed. Now that it is free, people forget that they've been playing it for over a year. They see only that the value has diminished and they want compensation on that value alone... playing the game is its own reward. If you play the game just to get a particular phat loot and not to socialize, adventure, or have fun, then you deserve to get screwed when that loot is taken away.
The developers didn't give up on it, management did. Had they listened to their community they might have realized a bit more of that potential. Oh and by the way saying "It never existed" you're in effect contradicting yourself since in the previous sentences you clearly accept that it did.
The devs distinctly gave up on it. Trust me. I've been a programmer for 15 years, and there is no way a company conspiracy this large could occur unless everyone believed in it. Just one guy who was opposed would've leaked the information out of spite, and that didn't happen. They were behind this change because they weren't behind what was already there. It was a mess, and even long time players can't help but agree on that point. And the potential existed, but the realization of that potential never did. Whatever game you think fondly back on did not exist.
When I spoke of depth I wasn't merely speaking of combat or template choices. I was talking about the economy as well as other aspects that included combat and professions.
Neither was I. It was just an example of how there was an illusion of depth that failed to manifest due to a fundamentally flawed system. The player economy is a completely different subject, but it was deeply flawed to begin with - in the crafter's favor, but flawed none the less.
Yes it was flawed, so is the NGE. But the NGE is flawed in many more ways than the original system ever was. They couldn't fix the flawed original system because they weren't listening to people who were trying to give honest feedback on the BUGs boards. And no Ralph wasn't the only one who understood that vision there were many others.
The NGE is flawed in implementation, but it is fundamentally similar to the same level progression system that has been refined throughout the history of online rpgs. The implementation can improve, but the theory behind it is plenty solid as it is. As for Koster's vision, again, I can have a lengthy discussion about how it was flawed (FUNDAMENTALLY and UNFIXABLE), but perhaps a different thread would be more appropriate. Just know that I doubt anyone, Koster included, could've seen old SWG through to it's potential, and I say that not as a 14 year old kid in a forum with a self esteem problem, but as someone who has extensive experience in these matters.
Oversimplification again. Were there people complaining just to complain? Of course ever game has them. Were there people trying to give honest and constructive feedback? Yes lots of them. Did they listen? Hell no!
My point is that the people who had honest complaints were impossible to hear due to the excussive trolling. If you really wanted to be heard, you'd be out there telling those people who turn every thread into a flamewar to shut the hell up with the rest of us. I don't think the NGE is perfect, but I do like it - and I can't share either opinion indepth without it turning into yet another "NGE SUX!!!11" thread. There are people out there trying to share true constructive criticism, both for and against the NGE, but those threads get buried under a mountain of trash.
Another thing that needs to be considered is that SOE knows a lot more than they are letting on. They know what they've heard and we don't. Just because we don't get an immediate response doesn't mean that they didn't hear it. In some cases, as with the NGE, that's the course of action and they can't change it now, so even if you do hate it, that's just too bad. But if you can suggest ways to improve it without being a complete dick, they MAY hear you, but they may not be able to respond just yet. People are complaining about the lack of class diversity, and they've said that there will be talent trees and other things, but they can't comment on it yet. They can't just go, "hey, that's a good idea" because people will mistake it as a promise to implement that feature. They need to test it out, balance it, and see if it really is a good suggestion before announcing it to the world. But if it isn't a good suggestion, and most of them aren't, they can't just go into the forums and say, "sorry, but this is a crappy suggestion" even if they give a good reason because that will upset people even more. So they say nothing. They may hear, but they can't always respond, and they won't always agree - and there's nothing you can do about it except have patience and perhaps a little bit of faith. If you can't muster it, then nobody would blame you for walking away from SWG.
it also makes the assumption that SOE/LA can't look at all issues with the Big Picture in mind and make the final decision.
Under the previous system, I don't think they could see the big picture. Maybe now, even if it means looking to WoW for inspiration, they can.
It's not the job of the individual community members to take into account the Big Picture, that's SOE/LA's job. Nor is it the job of SOE/LA to implement every suggestion.
That's fine, but if you can't see the big picture and they don't implement your suggestions, then you have no right to complain.
I agree with you that listening to every complaint and acting on it is no way to balance or design games. That is why it should never be done. You take the complaints that are related and coming from multiple sources and you eveluate the situation from every perspective and then decide a course of action. It's called being responsive not reactive.
I'm not sure SOE has been doing this to the best of their ability, but I'm not really sure what their best is. However, I think they did this early on and got a little too carried away with listening to the population. They don't understand why their suggestions suck - all they see is that so-and-so got his idea implemented for jedis while their own crappy suggestion for smugglers didn't get done, so OMG!!! The DEVS LUV JEDIZ!
SOE needed to be far more hard edged on their community relations early on, and they are paying for it now. They literally have a playerbase made up with as many 14 year old boys as 30 year old men, and they all want different games, and they are all upset when they don't get them. SOE needed to lay down the line and say, okay, this is the game we want to make. Help us make this game. They are doing this now - very definitely - but the spoiled playerbase is getting upset because it's still not the game they want (though it is the game that some people want).
What can I say? This, the NGE, is the game the developers want to make. They've made it quite clear, and they listen to suggestions that make the NGE better and not to suggestions to change the NGE or otherwise remove it. There won't be a pre-NGE server. This is SWG from now on, and either you can help them achieve their vision better, or you can quit. We're playing in their vision, they are not developing ours. That's a hard pill to swallow, but what are you going to do? Complain in a forum?
As far as your last line. I don't understand why you feel the need to resort to a personal attack when this forum is for the explicit purpose of people stating their opinions. However I will say that I didn't say that I could have done better I was saying WE as a team could have done better had management and the dev team chosen to listen to us and communicate with us. If you're unsure of the communitites issues just ask. Run a poll do something to tap the wealth of information they posses about your game.
And I'm saying that you can't do better. WE can't do better. I know what the issues are, and in many cases I sympathize. However, that doesn't mean that their solutions work either individually or as part as the complex webwork that makes up SWG. I wasn't being mean or rude. I'm just saying that your opinion on what the perfect solution would be won't work. It can't work. It's easy to write in your sig saying "nyah nyah, I was right! the CU did suck!" but that's just a value judgement and every troll on the internet has one of those (always negative too). But to offer up real solutions is something completely different and beyond the capabilities of most people. I don't know how to put it easily, but the soon you stop thinking you know the answer, the sooner you'll see that the NGE is a better one than you ever had.
LOL....yep, its so damn fun that last night (Sat. night) there were maybe five people on Tatooine on my server. The whole place is a ghost town. Last night was the last night of my subscription and I logged on just to say bye to any friends and see if they wanted my stuff. Now Ive been playing continously since the first week of launch and there were over sixty active people on my friends list prior to the nge, but not a single one on all night.
Anyway, I know that proves nothing to anyone but me, but it tells me all I need to know. I might add that with the free trial, Mos Eisley should have been packed. Well, enjoy this drivel till they shut down the game. I imagine the timer is running.
I loved this game and played as much as anyone I know of.
Started out with 8 RL friends, 3 closed after the CU, the rest including me now.
Even if I could deal with the NGE who would I play with, Wait for the 4 year olds to come and go, I dont thinks so.
Ebe ------ SWG -- ShadowFire -- Closed
Ann ----- SWG -- ShadowFire -- Closed
Zoo'xu -- SWG -- ShadowFire -- Closed