Originally posted by Ashkent ????how did he own me? he talks that way about WoW but every game is pretty much like that. whatever you do in any game makes no difference. its not liek you can permanently change the game world in any game...
Not true.
Here is one example: In Lineage 2 you can take and hold a castle. By doing so you have changed the game world. Intelligent persons will also use their new property to make more money. The prestige and potential additional income that comes with taking and holding a castle motivates players to fight hard for it, and leads to greater loyalty to good leaders.
In WoW, you can't do something like that. You can organize a raid on, say, Southshore, overrun it with Horde, assign a number of players to keep killing the guards that respawn no matter what, and with the rest of your raid group keep the Alliance from making a successful counter attack. But, in a few hours when most people have logged off---P00f!---everything goes back to the way it was. And, all you've got to show for your "victory" is bragging rights. Meanwhile, everyone is thinking, damn, I spent 3 gold on potions and arrows last night and all I got in return was a small number of Honor Kills compared to what I could get if I'd spent three hours in Battlegrounds.
|S C O R E| Ashkent ..... Owned again KaptZerg ..... 1
To add fuel to the fire:
DAOC, an even older game than L2, also has this feature. And there's more to it than just bonus xp and money, you can actually affect how much damage you do by owning relics, etc. Another game is Shadowbane, also older than WoW, which allows players to build cities and fight wars.... AO has land control as well, though that's meaningless other than just controlling the land. Lets see... oh! Almost forgot: In SWG you could shift the control of planets I suppose that's stil lthere but fortunately for wow SOE has managed to kill that game and alienate most of the veteran population so they're migrating to other games.... then there's Horizons, where players can build their own villiages, etc and alter the landscape of the world. Also the players can actually affect the environment of the game by driving back or succumbing to the evil hordes of undead.
Lets see... that's just off the top of my head...
Oh... damn! I just remembered EVE! Another game where players affect the game in deep and meaningful ways....
There are more, but I'm tired of listing them. The one thing all these games have in common: They're all older than WoW. The reason why older MMORPG players prefer older mmorpg's over WOW isn't Nostalgia... it's because WoW lacks many of the features that makes those older MMORPG's fun. They did a great job of stealing ideas and concepts and simplifying them. They did a lousy job of innovating any real ideas of their own or improving on the core aspects of those older games that really made them addictive.
its not permanent though. oh damn, you're all owned! btw, please stop using owned, its not adding anything to your comments. also, what are we taking score on? this is a discussion, not a game and not a "hey doodzors, i can make more posts than you can." competition
It's not? GOLLY... it's an evolving and interactive world. NOTHING is going to be 'permanent'. If you take a keep in either game you have to HOLD it or you'll lose it. Why would it be permanent?
In shadowbane you can make a city but if you don't actively keep it up then it will be gone the first time someone attacks.
In SWG you can take control of a planet or planets or city but if you don't keep at it and keep working to HOLD it the other side WILL take it away from you.
Of course it's not permanent. It's an interactive WORLD. Which WOW lacks.
The point is that you can build an empire. But if you don't MAINTAIN it someone can destroy it. That is the whole point!!!
Alexanders Greek Empire wasn't permanent. The Ming Dynasty wasn't permanent. Hell the USSR wasn't permanent.
The point we're making is that WoW doesn't offer that environment where your actions can change the game.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, if the patch to ryzom went live you can build cities and outposts there now too.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
you're not changing the world though! you're changing some stupid trivial aspect of the game thats set aside for change of whether 1 faction has it over another. if you really think thats a world changing event, then i feel sorry for you.
Originally posted by Ashkent you're not changing the world though! you're changing some stupid trivial aspect of the game thats set aside for changed of whether 1 faction has it over another. if you really think thats a world changing event, then i feel sorry for you.
Go ahead and feel sorry for me. It's a lot more fun and engaging than mindless PVP for nothing but personal gain. It's also a hell of a lot more fun and challenge than some stupid dungeon raid.
Did the dungeon raid thing in EQ... I don't need, or want, to pay for a cartoon version of EQ so I can go do it some more.
Oh, almost forgot to mention: DAOC has personal rewards for PVP as well, they're called realm abilities. So that's covered too. So not only do I get personal gain from PVP I also get the satisfaction of capturing enemy territory (and attempting to hold it).
In WoW you don't have that. It's just PVP for the sake of PVP and some rewards that are 'ok'.
WoW is shallow, in every aspect. It's SIMPLIFIED even the Devs said, and I paraphrase: "We took good ideas from other games and polished them and simplified them because our target base is players who have never played an MMORPG before or players who want a more casual experience".
There's nothing wrong with that. It's applaudable. What they did helped the market tremendously. But there are a LOT of people who are going to find it boring or shallow. And it's also going to be prone to a high churn rate as people move on to more challenging/rewarding/whatever MMORPG's from WoW once they get bored with it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Ashkent you're not changing the world though! you're changing some stupid trivial aspect of the game thats set aside for changed of whether 1 faction has it over another. if you really think thats a world changing event, then i feel sorry for you.
Go ahead and feel sorry for me. It's a lot more fun and engaging than mindless PVP for nothing but personal gain. It's also a hell of a lot more fun and challenge than some stupid dungeon raid.
Did the dungeon raid thing in EQ... I don't need, or want, to pay for a cartoon version of EQ so I can go do it some more.
i don't care if its more fun or not, thats not what we're talking about.
Originally posted by Ashkent Originally posted by ElnatorOriginally posted by Ashkentyou're not changing the world though! you're changing some stupid trivial aspect of the game thats set aside for changed of whether 1 faction has it over another. if you really think thats a world changing event, then i feel sorry for you.Go ahead and feel sorry for me. It's a lot more fun and engaging than mindless PVP for nothing but personal gain. It's also a hell of a lot more fun and challenge than some stupid dungeon raid. Did the dungeon raid thing in EQ... I don't need, or want, to pay for a cartoon version of EQ so I can go do it some more.i don't care if its more fun or not, thats not what we're talking about.
I thought that was exactly what we were talking about? The OP asked why so many people don't like wow. My answer was: Because many older games already offer everything it does, and more.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I liked WOW but when you have few lvl 60 chars with epic set and weapons and there is not enough things to do things start to repeat each other bit too much.
i see most of the complaints about WoW are the lack of being able to controll an area.
then i think you will be pleased to know Blizzard has explained in an intervieuw these features will come in future patches. now who still dares to claim Blizzard doesn't listen to its customers?
Originally posted by Gameloading i see most of the complaints about WoW are the lack of being able to controll an area. then i think you will be pleased to know Blizzard has explained in an intervieuw these features will come in future patches. now who still dares to claim Blizzard doesn't listen to its customers?
Never said they didn't listen
And personally my complaint with wow has nothing to do with PVP. I was merely pointing out why other PVP systems are more appealing to the hard-core PVP players who want a 'point' to PVP.
Personally I can't stand the graphics style they went with. (YES, I know it's true to the Warcraft games, I know ok? I still don't like it)
Now, if they offer an alternative graphics set that changes it from cartoony to more classical graphics I'd possibly try it again. But as it stands I can't STAND the character graphics and the structure graphics aren't much better. WoW felt to me like I was playing in an animated cartoon a-la the old "hobbit" animated movie.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
It seems alot of people in this thread are saying the same thing towards WOW's PVP.. And basicly that is that it is meaningless.
I could go on and on about this but I think others before me summed it up perfectly. Its sad that a game that didnt have PVP to start (City of Heros) has more meaningfull PVP then a game like WOW but hell its true.
People want to actually change the world when they play a game... They wont to have an effect on this so they can feel like they accomplished something due to there hard work... What have you accomplished after a 1 hour run in a WOW PVP zone... NOTHING, since when you came out nothing has changed in the Game world as before you went in. WOW could have the perfect RvR warfare, but it doesnt which is why many of us dislike it so.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Influence the world huh? I see what you mean like one choice could change many things but the problem how long would it last? I mean YOU could change somthing big but 10 minutes later someone else comes and takes that away from you by doing somthing different. Listen I know i would be fun but not for very long.
P.S: I want to settle somthing else while I'm here ahem....YOU DON'T GET ANYTHING FROM BEATING ANY GAME IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. SO FROM HERE ON OUT NOONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY "You dont get anything out of beating that game." Ok now that settles that. (Sorry had to get that off my chest)
Comments
Not true.
Here is one example: In Lineage 2 you can take and hold a castle. By doing so you have changed the game world. Intelligent persons will also use their new property to make more money. The prestige and potential additional income that comes with taking and holding a castle motivates players to fight hard for it, and leads to greater loyalty to good leaders.
In WoW, you can't do something like that. You can organize a raid on, say, Southshore, overrun it with Horde, assign a number of players to keep killing the guards that respawn no matter what, and with the rest of your raid group keep the Alliance from making a successful counter attack. But, in a few hours when most people have logged off---P00f!---everything goes back to the way it was. And, all you've got to show for your "victory" is bragging rights. Meanwhile, everyone is thinking, damn, I spent 3 gold on potions and arrows last night and all I got in return was a small number of Honor Kills compared to what I could get if I'd spent three hours in Battlegrounds.
|S C O R E|
Ashkent ..... Owned again
KaptZerg ..... 1
To add fuel to the fire:
DAOC, an even older game than L2, also has this feature. And there's more to it than just bonus xp and money, you can actually affect how much damage you do by owning relics, etc. Another game is Shadowbane, also older than WoW, which allows players to build cities and fight wars.... AO has land control as well, though that's meaningless other than just controlling the land. Lets see... oh! Almost forgot: In SWG you could shift the control of planets I suppose that's stil lthere but fortunately for wow SOE has managed to kill that game and alienate most of the veteran population so they're migrating to other games.... then there's Horizons, where players can build their own villiages, etc and alter the landscape of the world. Also the players can actually affect the environment of the game by driving back or succumbing to the evil hordes of undead.
Lets see... that's just off the top of my head...
Oh... damn! I just remembered EVE! Another game where players affect the game in deep and meaningful ways....
There are more, but I'm tired of listing them. The one thing all these games have in common:
They're all older than WoW. The reason why older MMORPG players prefer older mmorpg's over WOW isn't Nostalgia... it's because WoW lacks many of the features that makes those older MMORPG's fun. They did a great job of stealing ideas and concepts and simplifying them. They did a lousy job of innovating any real ideas of their own or improving on the core aspects of those older games that really made them addictive.
its not permanent though. oh damn, you're all owned!
btw, please stop using owned, its not adding anything to your comments. also, what are we taking score on? this is a discussion, not a game and not a "hey doodzors, i can make more posts than you can." competition
It's not? GOLLY... it's an evolving and interactive world. NOTHING is going to be 'permanent'. If you take a keep in either game you have to HOLD it or you'll lose it. Why would it be permanent?
In shadowbane you can make a city but if you don't actively keep it up then it will be gone the first time someone attacks.
In SWG you can take control of a planet or planets or city but if you don't keep at it and keep working to HOLD it the other side WILL take it away from you.
Of course it's not permanent. It's an interactive WORLD. Which WOW lacks.
The point is that you can build an empire. But if you don't MAINTAIN it someone can destroy it. That is the whole point!!!
Alexanders Greek Empire wasn't permanent. The Ming Dynasty wasn't permanent. Hell the USSR wasn't permanent.
The point we're making is that WoW doesn't offer that environment where your actions can change the game.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, if the patch to ryzom went live you can build cities and outposts there now too.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
you're not changing the world though! you're changing some stupid trivial aspect of the game thats set aside for change of whether 1 faction has it over another. if you really think thats a world changing event, then i feel sorry for you.
Go ahead and feel sorry for me. It's a lot more fun and engaging than mindless PVP for nothing but personal gain. It's also a hell of a lot more fun and challenge than some stupid dungeon raid.
Did the dungeon raid thing in EQ... I don't need, or want, to pay for a cartoon version of EQ so I can go do it some more.
Oh, almost forgot to mention: DAOC has personal rewards for PVP as well, they're called realm abilities. So that's covered too. So not only do I get personal gain from PVP I also get the satisfaction of capturing enemy territory (and attempting to hold it).
In WoW you don't have that. It's just PVP for the sake of PVP and some rewards that are 'ok'.
WoW is shallow, in every aspect. It's SIMPLIFIED even the Devs said, and I paraphrase:
"We took good ideas from other games and polished them and simplified them because our target base is players who have never played an MMORPG before or players who want a more casual experience".
There's nothing wrong with that. It's applaudable. What they did helped the market tremendously. But there are a LOT of people who are going to find it boring or shallow. And it's also going to be prone to a high churn rate as people move on to more challenging/rewarding/whatever MMORPG's from WoW once they get bored with it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Go ahead and feel sorry for me. It's a lot more fun and engaging than mindless PVP for nothing but personal gain. It's also a hell of a lot more fun and challenge than some stupid dungeon raid.
Did the dungeon raid thing in EQ... I don't need, or want, to pay for a cartoon version of EQ so I can go do it some more.
i don't care if its more fun or not, thats not what we're talking about.
I thought that was exactly what we were talking about? The OP asked why so many people don't like wow. My answer was:
Because many older games already offer everything it does, and more.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I liked WOW but when you have few lvl 60 chars with epic set and weapons and there is not enough things to do things start to repeat each other bit too much.
i see most of the complaints about WoW are the lack of being able to controll an area.
then i think you will be pleased to know Blizzard has explained in an intervieuw these features will come in future patches. now who still dares to claim Blizzard doesn't listen to its customers?
Never said they didn't listen
And personally my complaint with wow has nothing to do with PVP. I was merely pointing out why other PVP systems are more appealing to the hard-core PVP players who want a 'point' to PVP.
Personally I can't stand the graphics style they went with. (YES, I know it's true to the Warcraft games, I know ok? I still don't like it)
Now, if they offer an alternative graphics set that changes it from cartoony to more classical graphics I'd possibly try it again. But as it stands I can't STAND the character graphics and the structure graphics aren't much better. WoW felt to me like I was playing in an animated cartoon a-la the old "hobbit" animated movie.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
It seems alot of people in this thread are saying the same thing towards WOW's PVP.. And basicly that is that it is meaningless.
I could go on and on about this but I think others before me summed it up perfectly. Its sad that a game that didnt have PVP to start (City of Heros) has more meaningfull PVP then a game like WOW but hell its true.
People want to actually change the world when they play a game... They wont to have an effect on this so they can feel like they accomplished something due to there hard work... What have you accomplished after a 1 hour run in a WOW PVP zone... NOTHING, since when you came out nothing has changed in the Game world as before you went in. WOW could have the perfect RvR warfare, but it doesnt which is why many of us dislike it so.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Influence the world huh? I see what you mean like one choice could change many things but the problem how long would it last? I mean YOU could change somthing big but 10 minutes later someone else comes and takes that away from you by doing somthing different. Listen I know i would be fun but not for very long.
P.S: I want to settle somthing else while I'm here ahem....YOU DON'T GET ANYTHING FROM BEATING ANY GAME IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. SO FROM HERE ON OUT NOONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY "You dont get anything out of beating that game." Ok now that settles that. (Sorry had to get that off my chest)