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Why the NGE and SWG must fail!!!!!(anybody thinking of purchasing SWG read here first)
KatanOmega
Member Posts: 51
Preface: This opinion piece is directly related to the gameplay
within SWG, as well as the MMOG industry as a whole, and is being
shared for discussion purposes. Therefore, it is inherently a
"Game Play Discussion", and does not meet any of the criteria
put forth as "inappropriate" or even more egregiously assigned,
"trolling". And I'm not encouraging "drama" or any of the other
bogus reasons given for deleting posts. Since SOE believes that
any written disclaimers are legitimate (see EULA), I should be
covered. (apologies if formatting is bad.. doesn't copy and
paste well)
Okay, you all saw the seemingly inflammatory title of this thread
and probably thought to yourselves, "Gosh, another anti-NGE post."
That is a partial truth. There are many things I don't support about
the NGE, not the least of which is it's method of implementation. But
I'm not writing this to address the vocal *majority* that
already understands most of the reasons why this change was bad. This
perspective is being presented more for the fairly new player who does
not have the historical experience to use as a benchmark for future
expected behavior.
It's difficult to add anything new to a topic that has been roiling
along here on the forums, in the gaming industry, and even mainstream
media. At the risk of rehashing old arguments, I will at least restate
the primary issues (as I see them) in an abbreviated list:
1) The wholesale replacement of a game engine with little feedback
from the community beforehand. And for the record, highly contrived
"focus groups" are not the community.
2) The trivialization, if not complete elimination, of fruits of labor.
Regardless of their "virtual" status, these coded objects represented
countless thousands of hours of time and effort. People form an attachment
to their virtual possessions. If you need an anecdote, get your latest
bank statement. There's nothing in it that's "real", but it has value.
3) The legendary non-existent customer service. I don't need to go into
details. It's known industry-wide that SOE represents the exact opposite
of what a business should strive for in terms of feedback and responsiveness.
Trying to sugarcoat it is, at best, ignorant, and at worst, unethical.
4) The persistent and troubling pattern of distributing software updates
(Publishes) that create new bugs and programming flaws on a live server.
Considering that many of these bugs are indeed gamebreaking, and have been
found and reported on the Testcenter server before a publish is distributed,
any company that willfully distributed flawed software containing a priori
knowledge bugs that makes it unusable for even a subset of it's customerbase
is criminally negligent, and liable for damages.
I can accept that software is continually evolving and requires change in order
to thrive. I can accept that you can never please all the people all the time,
and that to try to do so is corporate suicide. I can even accept that there
will always be resource limitations that prevent the ideal development timetables
and products. But the amalgam of poor service, product, feedback, and lack of
respect for the individuals who kept this game afloat cannot be ignored or justified.
So for all of you people out there who continue to support the NGE, let me present
you with a "Big Picture" perspective.
In a nutshell, the entirety of my argument can be summed up in one word... "precedent".
Precedent is a powerful concept. It can both alter and legitimize future actions. To
provide a closer-to-home example, think about a standard auction you may find on your
server's trade forum. Player X has Item Y up for sale in an auction. The last 10 times
this item was up for auction, it sold for a million credits. All of a sudden, someone
bids 2 million for it. At this point, a radical global perception of the item has
changed. The next time this item appears in an auction, how much do you want to bet it
will sell for more than a million credits? Without providing an exhaustive indepth
analysis of economics or the philosophy of "something is worth as much as someone is
willing to pay for it", I think we can all agree that it is very possible and easy to
change how something is perceived when an unexpected precedent is set. The value of
anything is entirely dependent upon what people believe it is worth.
To segue into my point, let's assume that the NGE is successful in attracting a greater
subscriber base in the short term. Nobody else in the MMOG industry has ever successully
tried to overhaul it's entire gameplay with this level of sweeping change. The NGE is,
in effect, a precedent. Everybody in the industry will be able to point to it and say
"Look, SOE alienated it's veteran customer base and destroyed everything they worked for
in favor of bringing in a new subscriber base for greater profits, and it worked!" The
traffic light has changed to green, and every company out there will see it as a viable
business option. And worse yet, SOE will look upon it as vindication of their actions.
While the direct effect upon those of you who enjoy the NGE is immediate gratification
from your gameplay experience, the long term effects will be devastating.
From that point forward, every single Publish or "upgrade" that comes forth that has
changes you think are harmful or will adversely affect your gameplay will be moot. Why
would SOE care? They just proved that they can take away anything you think you've earned
at any given time, and there are enough people out there who won't care. In the beginning
you might labor under the delusion that things will get better. But this is where you should examine what the current veterans are saying, as those of us who have been playing for 2+ years know full well that it is exactly a delusion. Even if you like the current game, in time you will grow tired of it, especially if you are the coveted demographic of console players who
leapfrog from game to game with a far greater frequency than hardcore MMOG players do. And it's likely that what drives you from this game will be proposed changes that you don't like, or a bug that has persisted for as long as you can remember... the exact reasons that the current veterans are leaving. So you decide to try another game to alleviate your boredom. Well guess what. Because the NGE was embraced as an acceptable solution, every other alternative game you look at that seems enjoyable will always have that sword of damocles hanging over it's head... that they can take away anything you have created an attachment to and nothing you say or think will matter.
It's likely you'll find a game that you simply adore and play for all sorts of crazy hours and acquire a wealth of virtual rewards that you can show off to your friends and get enjoyment from. But the
instant the company that runs that game proposes a change that would reduce or eliminate the value of those rewards, you will have forsaken your right to oppose it or complain about it. After all, it won't matter. The NGE has shown that it's perfectly acceptable for them to decide you are no longer the target audience and it can change whatever it wants to try and woo somebody else, even if that means you lose everything you worked so hard to earn. Furthermore, it vindicates the decisions
by SOE to ignore customer service, to create more bugs than the ones they fix, and to continue lying for the sake of profit. The last thing the industry needs is a justification to lower the bar.
Supporting the NGE supports the idea that individuals do not matter. This goes beyond the quip of "It's just a game". If you really believe it's that trivial, then you assign very little value to your time, and very little respect to the time and effort of others. There is a quote by Martin Niemoeller which some may find my reference to completely blasphemous and horrendously out of context. And maybe they're right. But I can still see how the basic principals behind it are applicable here. It was written in opposition of the German regime during the WWII era, and out of deference and respect for it, I will only include a link
for it here. If you read it, you may understand why I make the analogy here... as subsets of our population have been negatively affected and removed by a sequence of changes that were not opposed by a necessary number of the community. That is the only analogy I make, and in no way try to compare the two scenarios in any other way.
In conclusion, all I ask of the pro-NGE supporters is to ask themselves these questions...
Do you have any items or accomplishments that you're particularly proud of here?
How would you feel if they were taken away?
Would you want the player community to support you to prevent them from being taken away?
If you eventually wish to leave this virtual world for another, do you really want to always take a chance that whatever you accomplish in the next game, or the next, or the next, can be taken away from you because "SOE did it first, and their players didn't care."?
It won't be a question of "if". It will become a question of "when".
My account runs out January 1, 2006. I will not return. Comment as you see appropriate, but I will not respond to anything said here.
Message Edited by Amizar on 12-15-2005 06:05 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~ Amizar's Amazing Weapons ~~
just outside Theed, Naboo (-3944, 5379)
*** Carrying a wide variety of weapons, elite powerups, ***
*** 100% repair and crafting tools, and more. ***
*** Always stocked. Always Reasonable Prices. ***
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This was written by a player on SWG and thought it was a good read that made many good points!!!!!!!VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!
General KatanOmega
[url=www.angry-gamers.net][sigpic]
By katanomega at 2009-03-11[/sigpic][/url]
Comments
So, if SOE gets away with it, the rest of the industry will do it.
I disagree. SOE lost way too many customers over this, and developers even from other game companies were bitching them over it.
On the other hand, I agree. It's always a danger.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Nobody wouldnt complain about the NGE if it didnt suck so bad. Nothings wrong with drastic changes as long as they dont SUCK. And boy does it suck.
Yes, im well aware that my post is subjective, but consumer items in a free market are always subjective.
Example of a sucky change to a game:
CORE COMBAT for Planetside sucked. It was hastilly released, so the developers decided to put uber-items in the CORE (CORE COMBAT), to get more people to use it. It just ticked off a great many of its playerbase that they have to do something they really disliked in order to obtain said uber-item. But unless you want to be gimp, you got to do it. Some just said screw it and unsubbed like MWUAAA. Sorry I dont speak French.
That's not true. You never do this to live game. Even small changes lose customers.
It's better to be sure what you are doing, and release it in a finished state than be farting around with it for years afterward.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
The SWG development crew has also shown a lack of direction and vision. While you can't account for everything the playerbase may do. You should have enough vision to not create your own game breaking problems.
I doubt any NGE scale incidents will occur anywhere else...what other game could possibly need to reinvent itself every 6 months. SWG fails at the most basic of questions...how do you advance through the game.
CU xp was changed several times. NGE xp comes to a crawl after level 30. Even ToOW quest xp has been tweaked since NGE.
The original poster has expressed EXACTLY the points that I have so clumsily been trying to get across in my recent postings. While many will shortsightedly scoff and smirk and make light of these points, they should stop and really think it through. Honestly. Because the wind may have shifted in a direction that suits them AT THIS MOMENT does not mean that it will continue to do so. SOE's development habits are much like Virginia weather as far as SWG is concerned. The changes are just that sudden, that predictable and that extreme.
When I speak of investment, of virtual property and virtual theft/fraud, I am not exxagerating or overstating an isolated view that is inconsistant with the virtual community's views, I am simply and flatly laying out what to some is obvious and what some have come to take for granted on such a level that they don't even think about what these things actually mean and what they are actually worth. Because these things are virtual, people are hazy on issues of ownership and value; and while this may not seem like much of an issue because of the context of being "just a game", I can assure you that should something occur to either devalue or remove an item of YOUR virtual property you might suddenly look at these arguements in a different light. IF you remember them. IF you can think past the feelings of outrage and anger at having lost them.
I can also tell you that virtual property is IRL a VERY serious and VERY valuable commodity, even now, in its infancy. While the concept is still hazy, its real life, real world value is not. People spend large amounts of real cash to purchase virtual goods, be they a game's currency, virtual items or even levelled game characters. On the Asian market, virtual property is big business. LEGITIMATE and LUCRATIVE big business. As I have mentioned before, Smedley himself has acknowledged this fact and has very frankly admitted that he (and through him Sony/SOE) have every intention of cashing in on this market for virtual goods.
Now think about this. Seriously. Set aside your smug satisfaction at being the latest heirs to a game that knows no loyalty to its customers and THINK about what this means. Not just to faceless strangers but to YOU. I'll give you a little help. SOE understands and intends to cash in on the very same things they remove or devalue without warning or compensation from the games YOU pay a regular recurring fee to play. Things that you spent hours, and days and weeks and more... oh so MUCH more time earning in game. This is clearly an indication that SOE understands that there is indeed a real world cash value to the things it takes away from its paying customers on a whim and has no intention of reimbursing you for.
In the real world, when someone takes something from another person without their express consent or prior knowledge, it's called theft. If you steal enough little things or one or more very large things (large and small being more a measure of monetary value than actual size) it's a serious crime that carries serious legal consequences. Considering the real world market value of something like an ADK prior to the NGE, and the number of ADKs that the NGE renderred useless, and the enourmous amount of credits and resources lost to the SWG crafting community during both the CU and NGE... well this adds up to more than a little theft. In real world terms, this is prison-time-level theft. And SOE knows all of this, yet banks on its customers either not realizing how much value they have been robbed of or being SO jaded that they will blow it off, pretend that it won't happen again and continue to pay SOE month after month -- or at the very worst just leave quietly without disturbing the other customers.
This issue is about far, far more than Just A Game, or many of us would have LONG since gotten over it. This issue will shape and define the quality of the market for years to come. It is a watermark by which other game companies will judge how much they will give you for the money you spend. It will determine what your rights as a consumer will be in the future. Not the distant future, but in the coming months and years.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
[url=www.angry-gamers.net][sigpic]
By katanomega at 2009-03-11[/sigpic][/url]
I've been playing the game since the first week it was launched. I was there for the corpse runs. I was there when you had to run everywhere due to the lack of mounts, vehicles and playercity shuttles. I was there when you were thrown into a vast world with only a game manual, the Holocron and 250 credits to get you going and figure the game out. The bank full/houses (yes, plural)/ships/factories full of items is everything I've earnt through out these years, including the few 100million credits in my account. Sure, I had my share of things that converted badly with the CU (like my Krayt FWG5's before they were "fixed" to not be able to use Krayt tissues) and that was annoying but I guess I didn't consider it game breaking enough to quit the game. It gave me a new goal to find the best for the new system. I still have my stuff that once was good, and anyone from the time will know it was good and that's good enough for me. Nothing is physically gone.
To me, conversions in the NGE went much better then with the CU. Things that I had with exceptional stats have somewhat exceptional stats in the NGE (a High Cap Scatter with 240 damage for instance, something no one has managed to craft in the NGE yet).
Plenty of people ARE enjoying the game, and they're not the console kiddies you seem to be thinking of. I've not seen a decline in the quality of the community in the game. The only decline I've seen is on the forums. That is why you see few people from the game coming to the forums now because everything that's posted gets a "does it matter, the games screwed" reply. Who wants to waste their time with that crap?
/mood none
The OP presents the same anti-NGE arguments as weve seen here already, albeit delivered with a touch more eloquence than usual. Other posters have managed to articulate their point of view well enough for me to understand this line of reasoning. I am just not convinced. In fact, all I can agree with is that the holocaust analogy is wildly inappropriate, no "maybe" about it. I resent the accusation that I don't value my free time. It is precisely because I don't have "crazy hours" to spend in a game that I prefer the more casual-friendly approach of the NGE. My free-time is more precious, because I have less of it than those who can dedicate hours at a time to playing. I'm not a console kiddy, I'm not fluent in 1337-speak. I dont view the game as a second life, so I dont form any deep connection with my virtual self or his belongings. Similarly, I dont have any need to derive a sense of achievement from accomplishments within a video game. Having fun is my driver, not accumulating virtual wealth and power and displaying it to others.
There is talk of precedence - well WoW set the precedent that a MMOG aimed squarely at the casual market can be an incredible success. SOE are reacting to that precedent by trying to mimic WoWs casual-friendly model, as everyone can plainly see. More importantly, SOE have demonstrated that even a company with huge resources and experience in the MMOG market can struggle to manage and maintain a game as wonderfully complex and deep as pre-NGE SWG. As a result of this failure, other companies may now be less willing to risk trying something that offers a similar range of skills and options. A simpler game is a safer bet. Besides this, if the vociferous and reactionary elements within the SWG community have achieved anything, it is to convince developers that theyll be better off aiming their future products at a more casual audience rather than trying to please the needy and demanding malcontents of the traditional MMOG player-base. If they create a game that is simple and stripped down to begin with, there will be no need to risk alienating players by introducing radical redesigns. That is why I dont see NGE-style revamps as a threat if the NGE succeeds. In fact, all I do see is a mob of angry children trying to break their toys so that others cant play with them.
I should add that if it were not for the amount of noise generated on this subject, I would never have thought to revisit the game I left two years ago.
/thank
look dont go on this guys oppinion go on your own. try the trial and see for your self (th trial does have some problems though yes)
i personaly love the NGE its much faster more interactive
So, are you saying that being vocal about ones like or dislike of the NGE will cause a general "dumbing down" of future MMORPG's? Or are you saying that the learning curve, pre-CU/NGE was too steep for the majority of people and only "easier" games will be profitable. If so, then people like me that enjoy the challenge of a game that reqiures some though are SOL? Contrary to SOE's belief, combat action and PvP are not the end-all be-all of MMORPG's. Although I have noticed SWG is referred to many times by SOE folks as an MMO. It might be my imagination but it seems that they are dropping the RPG element which unfortunately for me, was the main reason I played. I guess I can hope some company somewhere will decide to make a game for my style of play, but it isn't looking good.
*edit* I am not a player that can spend countless hours playing nor am I versed in "leet speak" but I still want a challenging game.
/mood amused
You sound like you will love the NGE since its now just a fancy FPS being just the casual player you state you are, BTW that kind of gaming comes at a $0.0 monthly charge everywhere else .in case you didnt know, jus trying to help a brutha out.
The MMORPG crowd for the most part love spending time playing an MMORPG (thats the kind of game that has a monthly fee and that has depth and long term character development and a record of virtual accomplishments/achievements while accumulating virtual wealth and power and if its also fun for them displaying it to others). There are plenty of people in this world who have and are achieving and accomplishing a great many non virtual realities and goals. (some of those people dont feel the need to try and subtlety demean others sense of fun by subtlety climbing the pedestal).
Many companies are designing games as we speak with the wonderfully complex and deep as pre-cu swg was and many will succeed and make tons of money. Plenty of companies with skillful producers, smart management and talented developers will enjoy truck fulls of money from the demanding malcontent MMORPG player base. There are hundreds of simple, stripped down games out there already, the MMORPG player base want more. In fact all I see is a small fraction of a$$ plowed simpletons playing SWG and crying ram it to me harder SOE..I love you daddy
I should also add that if it were not the amount of ignorant tripe and insults flying from some of these whelps I wouldnt want to retort so harshly. Did I break your new toy???? Awwwww .
/slam
PIRATE LORDS
Yes, my belief is that the more accessible a game is the wider is its potential audience. I think that the success of WoW has proven that. And personally, I welcome moves to lure new players into the MMO gaming fold, even if it means "dumbing down" the game for a younger audience (even console gamers). I don't think that this necessarily leaves the more mature gamer out in the cold - I know people of all ages who enjoy WoW. And from the RP perspective, I consider deep game lore and a believable world more important than a complex rule set.
Having said all that, it's evident that there are a lot of more mature players looking for something with more depth and challenge. The profiles of most of the more coherent SWG departees show that almost all are in the 30-40 age range. Given that older gamers tend to have greater disposable incomes, there is certainly a niche market for a product aimed at those of us who would perhaps be happy to pay more than the usual monthly pittance for a premium quality MMOG aimed exclusively at the more mature and monied end of the market.
There is really NO reason to buy SWG.
Battlefront 2 is a FAR superior shooter.
KOTR is a far superior RPG.
Both have no monthly fee.
Heck... with expansions, SWG is more expensive than both together... and is far far less fun.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Okay Katan. You put a lot of effort into this post and you deserve honest answers from everyone if they are to post. Here is mine. I did have items that took a lot of work to get. They are worth nothing now, but I honesty can care less that they are gone, because I like change. To me, change keeps things interesting. So if every game was to change their game play drastically I would be all the happier if I liked the new gameplay. This doesn't mean I didn't like the old one though. All I care about when I play a game is if I'm having fun or not. That's all a game should be, is a means to have fun. Gaming is a hobby of mine and fun is the reward for that hobby. As long as the reward is the same I don't care how the game changes. If I don't like the game I unsubscribe. It's that simple. Yes I grow attached to the community and the game, but I still keep a realistic focus on this whole thing. If I don't have fun I leave. I don't stay in hope of things getting better, I leave till they do get better or change into something I like.
If you need me to clarify more, state what you want me to clarify on. I'm trying to keep my post short here since I know there will be many pages for people to read.
I lost some valuable things in the NGE. I don't play the NGE because it came out in a buggy and unfinished state. If it came out in a complete and bugless state I would probably play it. The point is all these points you are making doesn't apply to everyone. Some people who did lose a lot of things they worked hard on may not agree with you, such as myself and some people who don't even play the NGE still might not be against sweeping changes like you assume all of us that lost something we put a lot of time into did.
I am one of those people. I put tons of hours into this game, gained a lot of wealth over two characters, many valuable items, and played some classes that have been removed from the game completely. However, I still think changing a game after it's been released like this isn't entirely a bad thing if it is still fun. That's all I care about is the fun factor. I pay every month to have fun, take the fun away, I take my subscription away.