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stop comparing DDO to GW!
random11
Member UncommonPosts: 765
I have read over and over that DDO is nothing else but GW with a monthly fee. DDO must be instanced. turbine had no choice there, neither does anyone who want to create a good DnD game. Of cource you might say, that nwn has a player cap of 64 when playing in a multiplayer, and it is not instanced. Note that you mustn't compare this game to nwn either. I will explain why. Lets assume there are 1k people playing online on one specific server. Now you can't create DnD atmosphere with this many players all waiting to kill the same beholder at the end of the dungeon. How would you decide who will get to kill it next, and who has to camp it for hours. Now DnD is about partys, and you don't want others to interfere in your work. So by now it is obvious that if it is DnD, then instanced dungeons are a must! Now then, how many people should be allowed in the same instance, well only six it was decided, quite correctly. This has a LOT of pros. It is perfect for DnD setting, because of the tactical combat, where everybody has a specific role in the party. A fighter is truly a fighter, and can't cast milf's acid arrow, and a cleric can't disable a trap, this makes each role very important, and requires a different style of play, depenging on the team setup. I played a cleric, and once when I was in a party with two barbarians, we just had to storm in, they killed, I healed; another time I played with a bard and a rogue, well needless to say, that was a bout sneaking around. Dungeons are interesting and challenging to beat, you actually have to think in every situation, you can't simply play it by routine. All of the above would be impossible if not for the instances. INSTANCES ARE GOOD.
About the monthly fee. GW has no monthly fee, because they didn't have any really strong reasons to do an instanced mmo. Now with DDO instances are a must, but you get to experience every other aspect of an mmo normally. DDO will come through, not for the large audiance, but it will do great.
Comments
Could you write once again why DDO shouldn't be compared to GW? Cause your post doesn't specify that, I'd even say it further stresses everything those two games have in common.
More paragraphs make Jesus happy and hey, it's his time of year.
There are certainly similarities between DDO and GW. The "massive" parts being the cities, zones in the cities being instanced but, as far as I know, that's where it ends. Advancement, quests, grouping, equipment, levels, all very different.
Some trivialities do not an identical game make.
Perhaps I wasn't clear anough, for that I am sorry. The most important reason for not comparing the two, is because they have completely different main reasons for using instances. I have played both games, so I know what I am talking about.
While in GW instances were chosen as an option out of the free will of the dev team, in DDO it is a must that comes with the DnD universe. In GW instances are mostly created, so people can advance without any problems in the pace they like, so ultimately they achieve max lvl, and get a lot of good items, so they can participate with success in the PvP part of the game (and I must add here, that the PvP is the essence of this game, so instancing is done just so that PvP can go quite well, and enjoyably). As I stated before turbine had no real choice wether to use instancing in such a way or not. To stay loyal to the DnD spirit they had to make the game heavily instanced, otherwise it would have lost from it's DnD value. And I also must state, that they have worked out the shortcommings of this path quite well. The most obvious shortcomming of instancing, finding new online friends to andventure with, and the amount of time needed to do this, was handled very well. They have created a very good, the best out there, group finding system. You don't have to shout LFG for 1/2 hrs anymore, you just set your state to LFG and available, then you don't just appear in the social window, when they do a search for specific classes/levels, but you also get a LFG sign on top of your avatrs head. You can also post open slots in your party (if you are the leader), and when an eager player is looking for groups, he/she just checks the open slots listings, and decide wether to join or not. It never took me more than 10 minutes to create a full party of 6 ( I like to be leader
), and 10 minutes was tops.
Like I previously stated, DDO will be hard to get used to, because there is no other mmo out there like it, and people are afraid of what they don't know.
I don't think people have advancement, quests etc. in mind when they're talking about similarities between theses two games, cause it's pretty obvious they're going to be different in these areas. I think most of the people are thinking about instances when comparing the games.
And I wouldn' say instancing is a "triviality". The way the world is presented in a game is one of the most important things in the game. It makes or breaks the game for a lot of people. Like random 11 wrote above instancing is more justified in DDO than GW, but the games are still very similar.
Wait.. very similar because of instances? Again, that's not the be-all or end-all of a game. With that same analogy every game that isn't instanced to that extent (WoW, SWG, AO, AC, DAoC) are "the same" but no one is silly enough to say that (well, I'd hope)
100% instancing is not necessary to make a good D&D game. What a foolish statement. The sooner Devs realize that people don't need to corralled like a heard of mindless cattle in order for them to group and in an open MMO world, the sooner someone will make a good D&D game. IMO this game should have been 50/50. Half instance dungeons and half wide open world for us to explore.
But the fact that Turbine has the rights to D&D means that this will most likely never happen. 100% instancing sucks. It makes a game too linear and 1 dimensional.
/sarcasm on
However, I will say that 500 people stacked up on top of each other near instance zone doors really adds to the immersion.
Don't even get me started on the combat...ya...when I think D&D I think hyper-speed dungeon raping.
/sarcasm off
Everything about this game blows.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
No open world to explore does kind of suck but at the same time instances is where the best part of a lot of games are (World of Warcraft raids anyone?)
They are simply just "cutting to the chase" of the action which is fine with me. I get tired of soloing alone in an open environment with no sense of danger (I can run away if I get in trouble). But then again I haven't played it yet, I'll just wait and see.
As I stated before instancing is a direct consequence of the devs trying to stay true to the DnD essence. DnD was allways about some players in some dungeon living their own adventure, not a group somewhere in the open, where others interfere with them. The game encourages grouping, or totally honestly speaking, almost prohibits soloing, and this is ok, because this game is (and should be) about partys, because the classes differ so much from eachother, and play differently as well, so only the classes united can beat the dungeons tactically, and smart tactics is the only way, this is what's new and revolutionary in this mmo.
Random,
With the way you describe "instances" and how they are used in DDO . . . the game should be removed from this site, for it is not a MMORPG at all.
Well, I have played DDO for several hours. The only similarity I see to GW is that DDO is also not a MMORPG. There is no "massively" in it, and there is very little multplayer. Yes, you have a tremendous amount of people in taverns, but they are not really playing the game . . they are chatting or trying to find parties. I hardly consider a party of adventurers to be "multiplayer".
DDO will sell well, simply because it has the D&D tag on it. Carebear players might love it . . for a while . . but my opinion is this game is dead in the water. Instances and otherwise uninteresting content killed the game for me. Sad to say this, too. I was looking forward to this game.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
I was going to stay out of this thread until I read this: What the hell kind of D&D were you playing? How many times has your DM given you a quest and said: Your epic adventure has started, you leave the tavern with your party ready to take on the horrible monster. You head down a block and a half, take a left on south street and enter the 2nd door on the right."
Yeah that sounds SO MUCH like the D&D I used to play.
Then to top it off, how many times has this happened:
GM: You enter the house, and for some reason there in the main enterance way of this mansion this person has stacked tons of crates and barrles.
Player: ooo, ooo I go around mindlessly smashing all the crates because I know you'll give me extra XP for them, and there will be monsters in side.
GM: Sure enough you smash your 53rd crate and a zombie pops out.
Player: Weee, I knew it. I spin around like a top pressing my attack button as fast as I can!
Yep that sounds like ALL the D&D games I've ever played
Well one thing we can all agree in is, that all devs have to choose the best alternative possible, and thus they can make the best game possible. The way the posts look right now: me and a few others saying "it is an mmo, it will be good, etc, etc...", others replying "no way, not mmo, instances make it a multiplayer game with monthly fee...etc, etc, etc....". Like I said, alternatives. All those who criticized the game as it is right now, I ask thee, what real alternative is there to the one turbine chose (a realistic, working and true to DnD alternative)? Think of it from such a point of view, I wonder what your conclusion will be about it...
Guild Wars is pvp based DDO is not that alone is enough to say it is not a clone. Not to mention the reasons for instancing are different. I hate just killing goblins for xp outside of town for four hours straight to gain a level and some new ability. So I am glad they decided to base experience off of quests rather than kills(in tabletop this is similar you calculate XP after a quest not during). This is a good reason for instances alone because a static world would provide no experience for killing monsters you find while not on quests. People would certainly hate that.
Not to mention instanced enviroments allow more realism into the game, which is important. If you do a quest and the floor falls through in an area, if you blast a hole in a wall, or drain a pool of water it stays that way. In static world quests these kind of things and animations can't happen because if they did only the first player could experience them. The biggest part of D&D is being able to effect the world around you and not being able to would make it non-D&D. Point of fact - Instancing enables the player to effect the world around them in much more interactive ways than a static world.
Say what? I will use Lineage 2 for an example. At castle sieges there are hundreds of players competing with and against each other. When a hog cannon is summoned, the entire outlying world shakes . . for everyone. When the castle wall/door is breached . . the whole world sees it. When someone uses an AOE attack, everyone in the vicinity he is attacking feels it and gets the animation.
If I go out in the world and drop a pile of money on the floor . . . everyone in the world can see it or pick it up.
In instanced games a player does not effect the world around them. They effect the instance. If a duneon floor collapses, only the people in that instance feels it. (In Lineage 2, when the land dragon Antharas spawns, the entire world rumbles . . again, everyone feels it.)
The first two words in MMORPG are "Massively Multiplayer". I would rather roam around in a WORLD . . not a pathetic instance. I would rather be in that world with thousands of people at a time . . not just my party. So, the last three letters of MMORPG are "Role Playing Game" . . .how is roleplaying with a small party of people better than roleplaying with hundreds and thousands? It isn't in my book.
DDO is not a MMORPG. Any game that has massive use of instances can not be MMORPG's. Play a real MMORPG. DDO is nothing more than a console game. It likely won't even be around a year after it goes retail.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
erm yeah...I'd certainly argue that he is the best MMO designer ever. There is no way to have a floor in a dungeon in an open enviroment collapse to reveal a deeper part of the dungeon underneath and then have it magically repair itself for the next party coming along. Then the players are still not effecting the world at all, they are merely riding a ride in an amuzement park. If it was truly effecting the world then the first group to trigger that caveing should be the ONLY one to ever see it, meaning they get a new and exciting experience at the expense of all those who come after them.
From what I've read of Vanguard it is more of the same with a few enhancements and a plastic people graphics engine like eq2, I'll pass thanks.
You do not have to have instances to have a floor that breaks etc. Here is what other games do.
They make certain quests time-specific. For example, let's use the quest where the floor breaks and opens up into a dungeon. What other games do is actually have specific times when this quest can be done . . a specific time when a certain area can be entered. So, let's say the area is accessable on Jan. 2 at 3pm. One hundred people show up and wow, the floor breaks . . and everyone sees it. After the quest is completed and the players leave, the floor is repaired . . but the area is not accessible for a period of time . . . say 2 hours or two days . . whatever. If you go to that area, you see a message that says, "Sorry, we can not allow you to enter. There have been reports of shifting earth, and inspectors are currently surveying the area for safety measures." Then, when the time comes when you CAN enter the dungeon, you will see this message, "Beware. In addition to other perils, previous explorers have reported a rumbling within the walls here." Ok, this is assuming a floor collapse is caused by an environmental phenomenon . . but if it were caused by a monster or some other evil . . the same resolutions could be put in place.
I will give an example, again using Lineage 2. Castle sieges are every two weeks and last for 2 hours. During the sieges, the castle walls, doors and other objects are often destroyed. After the siege, the castle is repaired, but is not accessible (other than by castle owners) for the following two weeks. This allows reasonable time for "repairs" and to set up defenses etc.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
I wouldn't have a problem with DDO being instances if the instances weren't boring as hell.
Seriously, for a game that hypes that you'll be "adventuring", why are we still killing # mobs and pick up item for person_y? Can't we have something more interesting?
There is no connection to reality in a lot of these posts. I wonder how much MMO experience some of you folks have...
The poster who felt instances are required in order to have real game effect is dead on.
The idea that one group would collapse the floor, which would then trigger goblins to start repairing the floor, is silly. A popular dungeon in a popular MMO will have hundreds of players locking it down. Even if you somehow implemented a perfect spawn rate system that flawlessly adjusted to player load, those goblins arent going to be repairing anything.
Here's how all MMOs work... Powergamers beat everyone else to the best areas. They then lock the area down as long as there is something of value worth extracting from the area. I suppose you could have a game with no real advancement (and hence no level gap between players) and no real itemization (hence no competition for where those items drop), but then you'd have Guild Wars - ie fantasy Counter Strike with some window dressing.
Im not sure how Brad reached the seamingly exaulted status he is enjoying on this thread, but I vividly remember the years of endless threads where people literally wanted to murder him b/c of the bad decisions he was making with Everquest. People forget the past so quickly. IF Vanguard is released and completely redefines the genre, changes the paradigm, and "fixes" the fundamental realities that are a simple result of the basic game mechanics of 30,000 people playing together in a rewards/advancement based game, then I will hail to the chief. Until then, Ill view Brad as a blowhard trying to kill the hype of competing games.
I dont see how you can do anything meaningful without instanced dungeons.
That said, WoW has the mix that DDO should have emulated. Emulating GW was a BAD move.