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skills = monthly fee, not player abilities in the game..
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So happy You and Lammenta appeared from no-where and started posting, your both very informed. But I shall state again, I haven't seen him rebuttle(sp?) any of the arguments about RL skills toward gaming in Eve, yay he can powergrind and continuelly do shielding to make his shielding better. But in eve with the multitude of equipment, ship capabilities, skills required to use everything. No matter what you do a person with better RL skills in tactics, thinking ahead. Knowing how to fit something to the best of it's abilities actually does have te upper hand to a vet that just chucked the most powerful giun on a ship but has no EW's. Chaintm, you only played the Trial right, well look at it, you could of started a miner, and had lvl 4 gunnery and blasted anything that moved out of the sky that attacked you when minning and still had a week to go with the trial, whilst some one next to you, has lvl2 (which is mandatory it seems) and couldn't stop the NPC's that spawn in the same belt from attacking him, even though he is 2 months old. You want any more proof of RL skills in Eve?
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
No, mister OP, I get what you are saying.
Skills = Game Time = Money
That is true and I will not disagree with that statement.
What I am saying, is that I think it's better then a game like WOW where the formula is
Skills = My Time = Money
But you know what? Your statement that playing this game more yeilds better rewards is also false. PUtting time into the game usually yeilds ISK. If you have a lot of ISK, you can buy better gear that doesn't require huge amounts of skills. If I had a couple billion to blow right now I could make my BC an unstoppable killing machine. But, you probably don't even know what an Escrow is, do you? Give any ship a Gistii Shield Booster and it will become competitive with any ship carrying anything less. But what do you care about that? You want to be able to play twenty four hours a day, max out your character, get maxed out gear, and then quit. Well feth that.
still can't let it go, it is what it is, sure there is more, never argued that point, but you guys keep saying the payed time = skills dosn't matter. If it didn't, why even respond to this thread? because it does bother you that someone might think they are not skilling/leveling threw their own personal skills , but their wallet. Aye, another repeat just said differently. You just don't get it, but I bet a thousand others reading this that don't play do.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
As I am sick of seeing your arguement reworded in everyone one of your posts chaintm. Tell me why does it bother you that much that some one who has spent $140 for 1 years worth of game time, bothers you? Because it actually takes the time to do a lot of the games training, or is it that you just can't seem to manage to produce any funds for yourself? For pity sake, if paying to play a game continuelly bothers you that much don't play the 'ptp' MMO's go play an fps, or a free MMO like Runescape. Get over the issue from money. Yeah you can put the equation through and come up with a direct skill point number too. But for pity sake, who (but you) really cares if your skill learning limit isn't restricted by yourself but by the dollar number. Move on the game's not for you.
Have fun gamming if you can get over limits the real world produce.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
The OP is right on one point and one point only : skills in EvE = paying time.
What he obviously doesn't get is that in EvE, skills != WIN. There is NO WIN BUTTON in EvE. How you plan and execute your actions - REAL skills - is much more important than the amount of skill points you possess.
Case in point :
I recently created a noob trial character just to recapture a bit of the original spirit (my main account is almost 2 years old). On the 2nd day I already had 4 mill in my wallet, and enough skills to fly a top end stock frigate set-up with proper guns / armor. I teamed up with a truely new character, and pressed him into coming with me to look for a bit of PvP action. We eventually found ourselves in a low-sec system and exchanged a bit of friendly banter with the locals, to the point where one of them, a 19-month old vet, started hunting us down in his tech 2 rigged tech 2 frigate (to the EvE-uneducated : tech 2 items are buffed up versions of tech 1 items, with better stats, that you can use with proper skills only). A fight eventually ensued, and we, a pair of 2/3-day old characters flying basic ships, came out on top of this vet and his pricey equipment. Better preparation, better execution, and actual PvP experience determined the outcome, NOT frigging skill points.
Now, you go ahead and try and do this in WoW for instance. Unless a level 60 player is afk while you gank him, he's just going to melt noobie faces forever - and don't tell me it's about skills. Heh.
As a side note on EvE's skill system for those who are TRUELY curious about how it works - it is not linear, but logarithmic in progression. While the benefit acquired from training a skill from level 4 to 5 is the same that is gained training it from 0 to 1 or 1 to 2, it will take more time to train from 4 to 5 than from 0 to 4 COMBINED. That is where the 'newer' players actually catch up to the veterans - skilling becomes more and more specialized as you progress, with skill impact being less and less profound.
As to the original poster, my guess after reading your successive replies is that you didn't even bother to try the game at all - you come across as grossly misinformed, and envious of people who started the game from beta. Perhaps you should actually PLAY the game before you spew out uneducated half-truths.
I see alot of players who say things like "Yeah I'm training for BS 5, Rail 5, Missile 5, Nav 5, Shield 5 it should take a year and then I'll be ready to PVP." You know whats gonna happen to those people? They are gonna train for a year, undock, get their battleship raped by a cruiser, and they're gonna be back in empire mining and whining about the game is full of gankers.
If you don't PVP in the first month, chances are you're gonna spend the rest of your game career in empire.
I think there is a huge number of players who wish to play Eve but can't handle its PVP nature, this is because they get attached to "stuff" and can't stand "losing" it.
Ships and mods are designed to be easily replacable, you are supposed to have 10 ships lined up waiting to be destroyed, if you can't afford to lose it, you shouldn't be flying it.
Real life skills are more important than in-game skills.
An experienced PVPer in a Cruiser or even a Frigate can wtfpwn a carebear in a Battleship, it has happened before.
Check out the vid of a Hauler hunting down an Interceptor, because 1 guy knew what he was doing and the other one didn't.
As far as "catching up" to Vets, yes its possible, but its the wrong way to think, because it assumes you have to catch up to compete.
This game is not for everybody. Its not for people who want to prance around in pretty armor and admire themself. Its not for people who think in-game skills are more important than RL skills. Its not for people who hoard money and ships and are scared to lose them. Its not for people who can play 10 hours a day and powergame themselves to 60.
In short, it's not for fat nerds. Its for red blooded aggressive type A personalities who know how to lose without bawling to their mommy. You gotta know how to lose.
There was this kid on the help channel the other day. He took an ininsured Megathron through a .4 system and got ganked, it was hilarious hearing him cry, you could almost hear him crying in RL, and I just smiled at my monitor and laughed at him, this guy was shedding RL tears over PIXELS???
PIXELS! Electronic stuff! How empty does your life have to be, to even CARE that you lost your ship?
See no matter what happens, your skills will still keep training, and you will still have lower ships to have fun with, so whats the big deal?
So you lost a BS, so what. Go jump into a cruiser and seek revenge, or call your friends and go hunt down the perp. You do have in-game buddies DONT YOU?
Of course not. Fat nerds never work in teams in MMORPG's, they want to solo everything, because they can't stand for the +5 fire sword to drop, and they lose the roll, so they always solo to make sure they win all the loot that drops.
Then they take the +5 fire sword to AH and show off with the other fat nerds.
I know your type OP. You played Eve, couldn't handle losing pixels in a fight, didn't want to be part of a team, so you blamed your lack of skill points, to make yourself feel better you said to yourself, "Self, the reason I was unsuccessful was because I have to wait years before I can be successful."
Yeah keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll feel better.
You failed Eve because YOU, the PERSON behind the keyboard, failed, not because of skillpoints or whatever.
I love it when people have to categorize people who point something out in a game others that are fans, don't care to admit. So name calling, insults and basic whining follow because in no way do they feel they can win the discussion with valid points. Again thou there is no wining, it's time played = skills, can't accept the fact that this is what the game is, but for some unknown reason you guys got to keep going and going on other topics other then the time played = skills. With you guys it's , "eve is more then that" well most games are , geez accept this fact and move on , how hard is it>?
One guy here posted a really good response and in this , I salute you...
You make a valid point and well said Razor, thou I would like to point out a few things. No one (well ok me) don't look for the instant "I Win" button. I am an old time gamer, 38 in RL, if I wanted instant gratification I would do something not online period. I go on-line for the challenges. To me and to most (if you ask around) when we participate in an on-line environment we are looking for depth, character development etc, all of which "we" have the control of and not the game.(which eve by time = skill controls). While your example shows the point of "getting into pvp and triumphing your opponent" in no way does it again defend or dismiss the pain stacking paying time = skills. While they are not essential for game play mechanics, it's a characters in game self worth and growth that makes a drive for someone (like me) who want's to feel that we have self improved our character threw actions.
Would I care if I lost a 2 billion credit ship, bah! it's a game I don't care, do I care if I lost in pvp over and over and over? Heck no been there done that, really sucked bad in daoc, but I still played because I found it fun.
What this post initially was intended to do , is let those (who are like me) that are looking for a game know there is this little feature in skills that take your paying time to accomplish and in no way can u effect this directly with any actions you do in the game (well beyond implants but yeah, when does an average player get one that will effect training?)
Point is, I had NO CLUE that this game was based on such a blatant use of Time Sink in a game, You might put me in a category of Power Grinder, but what you and many seem to have forgotten or never learned is the true meaning of such a title. Those of us who "grind threw" something, don't always do it for the ... hmm, how to put this so you guys understand.. "for the instant win button". For me it's about getting to that end game and having the ultimate in fun. Some say and argue that getting there is halve the fun, I agree, getting there is, but this game doesn't allow that to happen. I don't know how to put this in better english other then to say.. "it is what it is" there is nothing wrong with what your opinions are on the matter, but the "Facts" are the facts. This is a money=skill game and it just kills you guys to let people know it.
There are a ton of games out there with realistically comparative ideas, but non (from what I have seen) force a player to physically pay an amount to get to a certain tier in the game. Most if not all are based on a flat rate and you can fly threw the material (as you guys like to put everyone in the same category of Power Gamer) or take it slow. However that choice is up to you, the player. Not the mechanics of the game.
Again how many times can I say this, "if you like the game good for you" I am just letting those know what this game is. There is more yes, but like I again have said over and over ... Would u tell someone that ask's you about this title...
" Hey man, just so you know, this game skilling system is based off of time played" , No you probably wouldn't and why is that? Nuff said.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
After playing the game for 2 months I have to agree with the OP. RL skills can only do so much for pvp the rest is trained skills to outfit a ship. My RL skills wont allow me to address my maxed cpu or put better shields on. I will need to train up skills which directly correlates to time.
I think its funny that some people claim a newbie can compete against a vet and win. To use a Battleship as an example it will take me a good 6 to 7 more months before I can unleash the power of this ship via skill training to boost the ships stats and add modules. To think a char 1 or 2 months old can compete with a 9 month old trained character is rediculous. A new character can get some of the skills to lvl 3, but I have found so far that i need to train to lvl 4 or 5 to maximize the potential of the ship. Going from level 3 to level 5 can take at least 5 days for basic skills and alot longer for higher rank skills. The benefit at level 5 is usually a 10% increase in that specific skill. On a per skill basis that doesnt seem like much but when you need 20 to 30 skills to get the most out of your ship its easy to see a lower skilled player cannot compete. The bonus isnt just in the specific skill increase like using less power for shield rechargers, but it allows you to free up CPU and power to add additional modules to your ship.
The above examples assumes you spent the first month or so training up your learning skills, otherwise training times are alot longer.
However when you do approach the 9 month training time your RL skills and tactics will play a greater role in the combat and outcome.
I am not saying time based skill training is good or bad. I also dont think players should pretend that a new character can compete. From what I have seen a new character will be mediocre at best and that is after 6 to 12 months of time played. I agree that a group of mediocre players can cause havoc in pvp, but when confronted with highly character skilled and pvp experienced opponents they will either enjoy the pod of shame ride back to the station or the instant portal back to thier cloning station.
Onther point I want to bring out. Many newer character do not want to go to lower space for 1 reason. The only way to speed up this time based training is buy implants. I am currently in a Caracal which cost 5 million. My implants are over 60 million. I do not care about loosing the ship, but loosing the implants would be a huge set back.
Yes its time=skillpoints.
What I'm trying to splain to you is that skillpoints aren't the game.
If I magically gave you 30 million SP, you'd still be outclassed, because you don't have a basic understanding of the game, you think sp=power.
The goal of the game as *I* see it is to advance the cause of your "team" and to increase its influence and power.
Your team could be your corporation, your alliance, or a particular cause.
For example you have 4 factions, each one represents a form of government, in addition there are numerous "blocs" of like-minded corporations and alliances, like ex-Curse members, the Red Alliance which is all Russian speakers, Ushra Khan and Electus Matari which are anti-Slavery pro-freedom, there's democractic alliances and anti-democratic alliances, there's anti-territorial alliances that don't acknowledge anyone's "space."
So depending on your worldview, you can advance the causes and the people that you care about.
In RL I'm pro-democratic and fairly liberal, so I have a laundry list of organizations that I consider to be "friendly" those are Minmatar organizations, Gallente organizations, democratic alliances, anti-territorial alliances, anti-slavery alliances, anti-piracy alliances, and so forth.
So to me, the "game" consists of ADVANCING those causes and organizations that I care about, namely my corp, my alliance, and our friends.
You can do that very easily with low SP.
Its a team game, you have to work in teams, nobody is a solo superstar, unless you want to do piracy.
If you do piracy you can do solo pvp, just target the weak, the unaware, newbies, etc. You can start doing piracy from 250k skillpoints, which takes about 2 weeks.
But any sort of alliance building, your overall skillpoints are fairly meaningless.
And one more thing.
Nobody is a solo superstar.
If you think you're gonna go 1 on 1 with another Battleship at 50 paces, then you don't have a grip on what pvp is all about.
PvP is about using your strengths against the enemy's weakness, if the enemy is a short range fighter, you stay long range, if they're a long range fighter then you close distance, its not about who's gunnery skill is higher, its about who uses their gunnery skills at its optimal range, who has the better transversal, who is carrying multiple ammo types to break the enemy's tank.
If you just go duh 1 on 1, you're gonna end up singing "Like a Virgin" on teamspeak like Firstname Lastname.
I tell you right now, an experienced pvp'er in a cruiser will wtfpwn a carebear in a Battleship.
And I include mission runners in carebear category, ok, fighting NPCs isn't "combat."
There's plenty of Raven drivers who would run away from a pirate in a Rifter, because they only know how to kill dumb NPC's, 1 smart player in a frigate would jam them, nos them, and rape them.
Morex, best explained example and understanding of the game. If people would say this, it would be a pure and honest and by far open statment about the game. My hat off to your sir, for you put this in words exceptionally well.
Originally posted by fizzle322
Yes its time=skillpoints.
What I'm trying to splain to you is that skillpoints aren't the game.
If I magically gave you 30 million SP, you'd still be outclassed, because you don't have a basic understanding of the game, you think sp=power.
The goal of the game as *I* see it is to advance the cause of your "team" and to increase its influence and power. etc etc etc
While I understand it's a group/clan/outfit/organization (however u want to classify grouping) game , never ever brought that up. It is the pure fact (as Morax so delicately put it) a complex game were skills do matter to the individual in one fashion or another making it a time reliant game. He did say he doesn't see this as a bad thing or good thing. What he did do is explain the mechanics (to which I have been referring from post 1) of the game and what it takes to get to a point. Also other reason so well put, I wouldn't even want to reword what he wrote, it is so by far, the best written example of this game. Almost makes me want to play it
If more people knew about this , as Morax stated so well, it would be more of a honest approach to the game. Hey, I think this game has plenty of fun values, again I love space combat sims, have since I was a teenager, but that time sink was just to much for me (personally ) to get over to play this title. I think many who try it, go threw the same ordeal. If it was written out in plain english as again so well put by Morax, more people who did read such and then say, "well that is cool , i don't mind it if it was fun on the way" would be more likely to stay then get the shock that I found when I realized how skilling actually works.
Again, well said Morax, you are the first guy to actually impress me on these boards, bravo sir!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Chaintm, I read your post and it inspired my to make an account on this website just so I could reply. And after reading all that I could handle of this thread, what do I have to add? Just this:
As someone who hasn't yet played this game, I find your comments insulting to my intelligence. You've made the point several times that you think people are tricked into playing the game, and then shocked when they realize how long it takes to gain skills... Apparently unlike you, I actually read the FAQ section in the game's website. It very clearly tells you how the skill system works, it makes it really obvious that this game doesn't pander to the power lvlers (thank god), and yes, it even made it obvious that there was no lvl cap, which naturally implies that I won't ever have as many skills as the vets.
Despite all this, I'm still optimistic. Why? Because its not vets vs. noobies. If, for some reason, I decide to never group with vets because of some pointless grudge, then that'd be my own damn fault. And if I do group with vets, then I'm going to have a chance to take part in the action. Just because I won't ever have as many skill points as the older guys do doesn't mean that I won't ever be effective in a group battle.
With that said, I'd like to ask a question, which should be valid to this thread one way or another. How do the skills work in this game? From what I've read, it seems like you can't take advantage of every skill your character has all at once. Am I wrong on this point? Are all the skills you get usuable all at once? Hypothetically, if a player got every skill up to the top lvl, would that player be benefitting from all the skills at all times?
I'd say skills can be divided into 3 categories :
- skills that enhance your character globally, at all times - this includes skills that enhance your basic attributes (learning skills), skills that enhance your ship's grid / energy / cap / armor / shields / hull / navigation / sensors (they apply to all ships you fly). Most of these skills may also give you the ability to use modules further enhancing the same abilities. I'd package in leadership skills as well, which automatically improve some characteristics of your entire gang when you are in one.
- skills that enable you to use specific ships / modules and enhance your ability at using said ships / modules. This applies mostly to gunnery, missiles, spaceship command, drones, electronic warfare and a few others.
- skills that enhance your ability to perform "out-of-ship" actions. This includes trading, research, manufacturing, refining, science, etc., most of which are used on the industrial / financial side of the game.
While you permanently benefit from the skills in category 1, you only benefit from skills in category 2 when you're using specific ships / modules, and you obviously benefit from the skills in category 3 whenever you need to use those (but why train them if you don't plan on using them?).
You'll find yourself training out of "need" most of the time; i.e. you will set yourself as a goal to fly this ship, use that weapon, or perform that action, and then train for it. Once it is trained, you can fly that ship, use that weapon or perform that action whenever you want to. It never goes away. Obviously you won't train skills you have no intention to use.
Sure, you might change focus and pursue a different specialization tree at some later time, but what you trained previously remains as a character asset for you to come back to if you're ever inclined to do so. Skills do not disappear out of failure to use them.
You're never locked in training a skill - you could start training for a skill that takes, say, a week to complete, and then after two days have a change of heart and decide you want to train that other skill that takes 4 hours to complete first; your progression in the one-week skill will be saved, and you can resume training it at a further time.
As for your last question, it is indeed purely hypothetical, as I think it would take close to 14 years for someone to be fully trained in all the currently available skills.
So yeah, you would definitely benefit from it by having the ability to fly all ships, use all modules and perform all actions with maximum effectiveness. A broader freedom of selection is always a plus. But you wouldn't benefit from being able to use, say, all racial weapon lines ALL AT ONCE, because you're not ubiquitous.
Skills in EvE are essentially means to an end, but not an end in themselves.
Ok, so we're basically the same age, I'm only a couple years younger than you are. What I meant by outlining the absence of a "WIN" button in EvE goes a step further, and I think it addresses the core of the issue you seem to have a problem with (i.e that the skills = paying time system is a time sink and hamper your progression in the game).
I bolded that one statement, and I'm going to repeat it here : "For me it's about getting to that end game and having the ultimate in fun."
This is where you're wrong. There is NO such thing as an end game in EvE. It just doesn't exist. You can't cap your skill level, as devs keep pouring in new items requiring new skills that require mad amounts of time to train. If you're familiar with the myth of Sysphe (Sysyphus?) in greek mythology, you'll understand what I'm talking about. CCP keeps pushing the skill cap back faster than you can approach it.
Another assumption in which I think you are very, VERY wrong (although I'll admit this can be purely related to one's personal approach of gaming) is when you imply that you need to reach the end game to have the ultimate in fun. This *might* be true in other games, but this is just a huge fallacy for EvE. You CAN have fun two days into the game, because of EvE's unique, high-stakes PvP system and challenging universe.
EvE's true measure of success & achievement will NEVER reside in how many skill points you have accumulated. Success in that unique single-server community is best achieved through reputation, whether you're a sly politician, a wealthy manufacturer or a feared fighter pilot. ISK (credits), which are mainly amassed through grinding, would get you a reputation faster than skills ever could.
You won't find anyone in EvE telling you that skills != money. It would be a lie. What we're trying to explain to you is that reducing EvE to that equation is totally pointless, because in-game skills take a backseat compared to other much more important factors such as teamwork, social interaction, experience, smarts, etc. THAT is what the game REALLY IS. Not in-game skills, hence, not money.
The reason I asked my question about skills stacking up is so I could make one final point. The only way that vets could maintain a truly unbeatable godlike status is if they could take advantage of every skill they have at all times, all at once. From the sounds of it, a new player could potentially join the game right now with a specific set of skills in mind that would maximize one particular style of ship/gameplay. Once that had been achieved, that player would be on reasonably even footing with the vets (they wouldn't have as many different styles and such to choose from, but their one style should still be reasonably effective against any of the options that the vets could pick from).
Basically, vets could only maintain dominance if there was no cap to individual skills (which, to the best of my knowledge there is, apparently at rank 5, or whatever its called in game). Sure, the vets are rewarded with more diversity because they've been playing longer, but so what? When is that ever not the case in an MMO?
Plain wrong. In the corp I am now (founded 3 weeks ago, around 30 members by now), we have a mix of old characters, like me, and totally new players barely out of their Trial. You know what? They enjoy the game, they are excited about it because they don't look at us and say "buhuhuhu they have more SP than me", but instead "wow, cool, I can learn something from them" - and they *all* enjoy the game, and have fun with us.
It is an old misbelief that Level in other games equals SP in EVE. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Some people seem to have the need for "tail-length" comparisons, but its a lot harder to do that in EVE, since characters are so freely customizable. Actually not even Characters of the same amount of SP can be said to be of "equal" strength/level/whatever. And yes, a 6 month old character can (and it was often the case) beat a 2 year old "Veteran". In any aspect of the game.
Where has that been said? Any link you can provide?
Why not? My character participated in the killing of a, at then time, roughly 7 month old character (at that time that counted as old in EVE), while barely being a month old myself (the others weren't much older either). Later that week we organized a pirate hunting group of two older characters and us "noobs" and went off to hunt pirates in 0.0 (we got kicked hard, but more because of our bad coordination than any lack of character skill). Actually most of my PvP-experience comes from my first six months of play. The best about it? I never felt "inferior", I had fun, killed and got killed.
That sounds as if EVE would require no commitment or time. EVE is not about the "solo hero", EVE is about groups working together to achieve a goal. The greatest achievements in EVE sofar were done by groups, be it the first alliance, the first real "alliance killers" (m0o), the first Outpost built, etc. But even the few great solo PvPlers in the game did not get their status because of their supreme character skills, but because of their attitude, determination, and RL skills. Your commitment and time affects the people arond you, and, if you are dedicated enough, whole Regions of EVE. You think Alliance leaders got to their position because they are the ones with the most SP? You think the great Trading Cartels rose to power because they have characters with a lot of SP among them?
Don't mix up facts with personal opinion.Agree with every word of the reply. Kudos to ya, this is how it is, always has been always will be...
I am a relatively new player as well with around 1 month of playing time under my belt. After reading what the OP posted, I have to say I am not surprised that someone will think it that way. In fact, some people already posted on the eve-online forum, compaining some aspect of the game as a newbie. There is a lot of fan boy attitute about the game, which is that "if you don't get it, then just leave, good bye and I don't want to see you again." or just straight "you are an idiot." Comments like that don't generally help. I think a first thing a new player need to realize is that this game is not for everyone. Just like how WoW or CoH isn't for everyone. As a newbie myself, I did have a chance to see from the perspective from the OP and agree with him on some point. The main attraction of EVE is that it is a highly player based game, no other game I have seen has this level of player interaction. Most goods are produced by players, most goods are brough and sold by players. What one person does will in one way or another affect another. In some sense, that's what a mmorpg should be.
The problem with EVE is its high learning curve. And by that, I don't just mean how long it takes for players to train skills, but also seeing the goal of the game. If you are a newbie with no prior knowledge of what the game is about and go about your normal way of mining/pve, you will most likely get bored. The PvE aspect of the game is not very good especially for people who love to solo. This is especially a big change for people coming from WoW or CoH. Take mining for example, if you just mine by yourself, it will be very very boring, but if say you are pairing up with your friends or corp mate, someone does hauling, some one does mining and while everyone is together having a nice conversation, your experience suddenly improves. Same with doing PvE complexes and high lvl missions. So if you are in a nice, tight community, your playing experience improve dramatically. If you solo, you will get bored. Another important aspect of EVE lies in its politic, Alliances constantly declaring wars on each other, taking over low security zones and such are also the beauty of EVE, especially if you are a member of such alliance. For a new player, it is hard, because you had no skill, no money, you don't know anybody. You try to join a decent corp, but they most of them require a good amount of skill points to join, so you try to PvE by yourself and it gets really really boring, and then you look at your skills and it still takes 2 days to get the skills you want, then you wonder what the heck you are supposed to do now. The result is you think the game is boring and becomes impatient, that pretty much just kills a newbie's desire to play the game any further. So that's what I believe a newbie transforming period, a period you have to get through before getting to the heart of EVE. This period will weed out a lot of new players.
Of course, there is also tactics and combat part you have to learn in pvp about the game. If you are looking at your ship weapons and wonder what the hack those stats mean or approaching a battleship in a small tackling frigate in a straight line and wonder why you get shredded, then you need to consult other vets. or the player's guide at Eve online's website.
As comparing with WoW, EVE is very different. When I played WoW, the begining was great, I was so addicted to it, the quest is interesting and everything, then two months down the road I start to lose my interest, seeing my end game is just raid plus more raid and battleground plus more battleground, I don't see the point to play the game any further. Nothing I do in the game really matters, I can't take over any zones, the people I kill lose nothing other than running back and get their corps.
In conclusion, I will try to quote a vet's statement that EVE is like a novel whereas games like WoW is like a comic book. EVE may start painful and slow if you don't know what's going on, but it will get better. WoW starts off awesome, but it couldn't sustain that kind of excitement for me any further. Now does it make you a dumb/better person just because you like WoW or EVE, no. It just mean either WoW or EVE is not for you, but to completely verify if a game like is EVE is for you, it probably will take longer than the trial period and you will need to join a player corp.
One more thing, don't forget how important your "Learning" skill is.
ok, now that ive read half the rants here and cant handle any more of this time=fun=skill=money concept... now im assuming your a WOW player chaintr, am I right?... Now as a slight background before i start, I do not play eve anymore. When I did it was only for 6 months. I did not quit because of money, but only because of the difeculty to acquire time cards. And in reading this post I now want to play EVE again. Thanks for the inspiration chaintr. How long have you played WOW? I'm assuming at least three months. how was the last quest you did, which broken down asks you to kill 10 wolves 3 bears and get 2 pellets, then bring them back for 1 gold. And let me guess a slightly changed story and the same quest again. As you can see ive played WOW. That truly is not a game of skill, if your bad at the game it just costs more money to get to lvl sixty. once you get there your goals are gone, other then getting a peice of armour with a .12% drop chance. Therefore it is also a time=skill, this time is just squashed into sleepless nights and hours of free time. Then you hit lvl sixty in a week and gloat about your greatness. woop dee doo.
Now, I started playing eve cause I think bounty hunters in space ships are cool. So I made my own corp and right off the bat, on a 14 day free trial from here, started going after bountys. Did I go after people as newb as me, nooooooo. I went looking for the biggest baddist guys I could find cause they have bigger bountys. Then you wait till they mine, jump in and try to kill them. there frigs and mining barges are just as weak as your own. but guess what hes been playing for 3 years. I have seen truly amazing battles in eve at only 3 months of playing which are far more amazing then any battleground or raid in WOW. Alliance battles with everything from frigs to battleships flying everywhere. sure I dont live till the end, but You work with the group your in and share in the loot, which is from players not NPC's, and it is there items and money you are getting.
Can you possibly be a trader in WOW, nooooo. unless you count the two auction houses. EVE is 100% player owned market, you can buy something half price somewhere, fill your ship full, then sell it half price somewhere else. or you can become a recon pilot, which is easily completed within probably a month and a half. flying in stealth to any battleships, so your team knows where to warp. Everything I gave you there you can accomplish easily within a 3 month period. And dont you dare say "exactly it takes three months time=money", because I damn well know youve played other games like WOW city of heroes or everquest just as long if not longer. These games are fads, they die out and are only played because huge corperations like blizzard have the money to advertise to the world.
When WOW first came out it jumped instantly to the highest rated game, then guild wars started and it was raised to first, but slowly and surely both fell back below EVE, I think that is really all the proof needed. WOW costs more then EVE, takes just as much time because I dont see people playing it for a month then quiting, and it is the game where the elites got around killing the newbs and strutting there stuff. That is not a common occurence in EVE and when it does happen people will come help you fight off the particular elite pirate, usually leading to an assualt on there base with equally elite people.
The skill system in EVE is new for this type of mmorpg and works wonders, it leads to more mature players playing it, not the 12 year old kids playing WOW. These people are adults in the industrys who used to play games like WOW but in hitting the real world find there is no time for that. SO they find the one game that can be played even as an adult, takes these mind capacity of an adult, and you dont have to screw around with servers trying to be on the same one as your freinds.
So chaintr if you ever get talked into playing eve, try joining a big corp, being a bounty hunter, a trader or a recon pilot. find a goal to work towards and get it. Those are some ideas for a new player, though the bounty hunter ones a bit extreme(but its fun). and if your a highschool kid with time on his hands then either stick to WOW or play both games.
And the most annoying thing this year for me was buying the WOW cds, for $50 dollars, taking them home and finding I couldnt play without also buying a 60 day timecard. there is seventy dollars down the drain. you can download eve for free, and they also give out a FREE 14 day trial at this website, with no credit card needed or anything at all. WOW is tricking you out of your money so smoothly you dont even notice. COH does the same manuever, and it is damn annoying you have to pay for 3 months of playing when you only want to try the game. So stop complaining about money, since your just mad that you cant be the top elite in the game for once. Money is not the issue, its an excuse your trying to use. goals=fun when you run out of goals in a game it becomes useless. It is not time=money=fun=skills. WOW = without skills pay more.
So now that ive finished my big company bashing I hope this argument is complete. I was only able to make it through half of the postings till I couldnt handle any more so I hope I havent stated anything said by many others. Oh, and I did play WOW, for three months, ran out of goals got sick of killing wolves and thats why I quit.
Have fun
This thread is still going? ok, lets see I will "quick" answer a few of the statements from previous post since my last posting...
I actually made someone join MMORPG.COM? wow I am , well *sniffle* touched
thnx for welcome to MMORPG.COM were even the most un-friendly anti-*insert title here* can say his or her peace.
World of Warcraft player? sure I tried it ,who hasn't? hmm I think I just gave it away what I actually did with that game. ops! there I go again using pastence meanings! dangit! just did it again!
Haha, power gamer, end game, still don't get it do you, so far only 2 people on this whole thread understood it and sadly you are not one of them, you devs got to stop making multiple accounts to defend your game. Just live with it and "move on". There is no reason to defend your game, if people are willing to look beyond this skills = monthly fee then hey, they are probably going to play a long time!
You guys are funny, geez how many times are you going to repeat yourselves and then I repeat myself, the fact is "you can't handle the truth" lol always wanted to use that line, ok... so were was I? oh yeah, uuuheemm *clears throat* Every example, explanation and or reasoning is all the same, you guys have to realize (look back at what you actually wrote) that you put the very thing in your own statements (be it in the start middle or end of your argument) in one fashion or the other. You cannot argue what the game mechanics have period. It is like saying "World of Warcraft doesn't have missions! they are quest!" lol same meaning different wording.
K thnx.
ps. to you "i am sick" guys, I think I got a cold too, probably from the kids at the grocery store, have some soup, it helped me
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
During my time in EVE I have found this game to be seriously flawed and happen to agree with the original poster.
Just so were clear: The main issue here is the way in which skills are based-- on BLOCKS OF TIME consisting of minutes, hours, days and (shockingly enough) weeks/months! In no other way can one affect the progress of their skills or character development. You have, quite simply, a skill system that is 100% dependent on time and time alone. Pretty generic huh?
This 100% time-based only skill system is unimaginative, lame, and is why this game has never reached great levels of success (compared to other MMORPG titles, even poor ones). Its also why I will not subscribe to this game. I appreciate eve for a lot of what it does right (it does a lot right, very nice game in almost all respects), but this time based skill system is a real deal breaker and anyone who tries to defend it fails miserably.
Many will say that the skill points dont matter, its the real-life skill of the player and their tactical ability that is to say, simply knowing how to use their ship/equipment is what counts. I can tell you first hand that this is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard and hope the majority of players are wise enough to see through Bagdahd Bobs propaganda and prepare themselves for a real shock.
There comes a point that doesnt matter how good you are, where higher tiered equipment will shut you down every time. Unfortunately for new players, this time comes the first moment they enter eve, and lasts for a good 6 months to a year before the gap *begins to close. In reality, the gap NEVER closes. You will _always_ be far behind others who have been playing longer than you have.
For CCP to keep vets interested in the game they release new skills for them to learn, great for vets but terrible for the new players because it simply widens the gap. No one has any hope of ever building up his character to the point of EQUALITY to one who is already established.
Any bozo who is even half-way efficient at what hes doing (and believe me he is, because he has been playing for 24+ months to gain those skills, lol) will blow your ship to pieces in 2 seconds flat. Its simply impossible to go against tier 5 skills, you cant counter them as a starting player. It takes tier five skilled allowed equipment to fight against other tier 5 skilled allowed equipment.
No new player can compete against an established player. End. Of. Story. They just cant do it. Not until at least 6-12 months of real world time (thats when your intuitive knowledge of the game systems helps and can make a difference).
Its ridiculous, theres no hope to be able to compete at the level the rest of the players are at, its hopeless! It would take many, many, months before I can have any hope of competing at a serious level. And PVP is serious business, am I right? In fact, its what this WHOLE game is centered on (pvp can happen anywhere, anytime). Its frustrating having died in a fight because you know the other guy has 24+ months of time investment on you and was therefore able to put better/more equipment on his ship.
To make matters worse, if youre only interested in combat the best way to make money is to waste asteroid bandits in .4 and lower systems. These are the only NPC bandits that give decent payouts. The trouble here is that you will be ganked by roving PC pirates who have; you guessed it, a severe time advantage on you that you cannot ever hope to compete against for another 6+ months of time.
So, in the end I found some of my corp. mates along with myself just sitting in the hanger, just sitting there waiting for my skills to tick down, from 5 days, to 4, then 3, then 2, then 24 hours . Im sorry, but I dont want to pay a monthly fee for a game that I cant begin to really enjoy for 6+ months. And you know what? Hardly anyone else does either I can honestly tell you that I never again expect to see a skill system based on 100% time and time only (not even from CCP).
If you love to PVP, dont bother with this game unless youre ok with the understanding that you will essentially be paying CCP for 6 real world months of game time-learning before you can begin to close the gap and be competitive, and once those 6 real world months are over youll then be paying to play like you normally do in other MMORPGs.
In EVE there are really 2 types of skill sets, your in-game character skill and your real life skills. Real life skills are unquantifiable and are more important factors to success than character skills and equipment/items. You are correct in that the learning rate of in-game character skills are some what fixed, but the assertion that the player cannot do anything in game to increase the learning rate is wrong. This is due to the fact that players have the option to purchase items that will increase their characters' learning rates. How they come up with the funds to purchse those implants are indeed the result of the player's decision and in-game actions. This is no different from some leveling systems where you grind for generic skill points which you can spend on a specific skill.
The problem with "pay time = skills" is that it implies things like this: "$15/month = 1,000,000 skill points per month". In reality the system functions as a combination of pay time and player actions and so you get results akin to this: "pay time + player action = skills" or "$15/month + player action = 750,000 to 2,000,000 skill points per month". (In fact, it is theoretically possible for the player's actions to result in a negative accumulation of skill points per month
)
BTW, even MMOs such as WOW, EQ, FFXI, and UO have theoretical limits on how fast you can level up (be it levels or attributes). Because there are theoretiacl limits you end up with something like "pay time = theoretical maximum level increase per month" which is similar to "pay time = skills"
Mate I have a 5 week old character as my new main, with only 3 mill ISK and 0 lvl 5 skills, I can as people have been calling it, 'Gank' 3-4 month old players, in 3 weeks when I get the only 2 lvl 5 skills I care for I will be able to 'Gank' 1-2 year old players. At the moment I actually only have 3 weeks of skill training on this character too, why cause I couldn't sub because of internet funding issue's with my bank. So yes you won't be able to gank a 24 month player in the first say 3 months. But who the hell would ever want to 'Gank' a 24 month player in ANY MMO!? No matter what you have up your sleeve, even in WoW a 24 month player (even if their could be one) would 'wtfpwn' you when he is 3 levels below you because he would know exactly what you are doing, and do the best offence or defence he is capale against you without paniking(sp?) like a little girl who jus cut her finger. Yes the game is restricted in overall Skill training ability. But with 1million Skill points I would be in Heaven. What I have read about most of the last few posts condemming the game is related to a lack of planning, hell look at the race your in, then choose the path of weapon, armour, shield, Electronic weapon skills you need. Or even the right ship points. going frigate 1, cruiser 1, BS1 etc and up is probably the worst way to gain ship skills. If you look at the capabilities of any T2 Frigate (one of my 2 lvl 5 skills that I need) You will notice they can do 10X the damage and take 10X the damage of almost every single tanked out Cruiser in the game. Specially if you take the time and ask around how to set one up and where to get it.
Most of you have thought, I like hybrids (as Amarr) and used their second weakest weapon aray instead of their Race benefitted weapon. Hell I saw a Minmater frigate fireing missles and no artillery style (i think it is this or similar) weaponry they get their bonus from. Use the bonus's you are given people. Don't pick a random race then a weapon alignment. Pick a weapon alignment then the race that suites it. All you are complaining about is your inability to shoot stuff older then you cause you have chosen everything wrong, or taken the long way.
Hell I don't care for implants yet. Just got all skill and learning to lvl 3 what, that took only 3 days and I have 3 points to all my attributes. Well theres one slight problem fixed. Nothing has to be trained to lvl 5 unless you want a stupid 5-10% bonus that only comes into play when your facing the same ship, with the same setup, with a player with the same ability in PvP as you. THAT NEVER, and shall I repeat NEVER happens. You will always come up against some one with more Skill Points but a worst setup, or better setup with better PvP or worse PvP skill. The entire PvP combat is Real Life skill comming into play. Yes a BS could really over kill your frigate if you stay 30+ k's from it, move in and orbit at 2-5 and the things bloody useless. And they try to run, plus if you are smart, you could warp scramble and kill the thing, Thats a t1 frigate killing a BS all cause the battleship was built for long range vrs big ships and so the player has fitted it so, making the wrong choice to attack a tiny firgate thats both faster and able to fly really close and still hit.
Everything that A player does ingame effects their ability, may it be studying equipment when traveling, talking to a vet about how they should fit a certain ship, or attack another. May it be that they bargain with the Pirate that just jumped them in the asteroid field. Nothing you do can not be remified if you don't overreact when something bad happens, hell I had to refit my Kessie 4 times so I wouldn't get blown up in my first lvl 2 mission. I went from, short range jammer to long range, armour buffed, shield extended t1 frigate of doom. And I have 290K skill points. half of which belong to my frigate and cruiser training blocks.
Everything you do will have an overall effect on the time it takes to get your next goal. Unlike WoW if you put the wrong sword on and you get the wrong buff, go change it, thats 30 seconds. Eve requires you to plan the next se of skills to gain the next weapon. All basics require lvl 3 skills at the most. And then you can use them, none of this rubbish about lvl 5's thats for tier 2 stuff that get a 15% bonus. not much if you know how to use the tier 1 equivilant. You people complain about eletism, yeah all games will have a form, may it be the end-game, starting off or just a long grind from 20-30 so you can do something new to challange you. Eve has it against the new people. But if you don't take the time given to you by the long jump travel time it is your own fault for not having the best that you can get. Actually study in-game with Eve, it is that frikken big and diverse you have to. WoW is your friend if you want to have a fun time for 1-59, end game if you have time for 6 hour raids. But Eve with it's realistic time skills that is oh-so required when you look at what would happen if classic grinding was involved (which make utterly no sense at all since your in a ship using auto mated everything.) The fact of how long you played the game would be removed and Eve itself wouldn't work. And if ANY of you read the FAQ you would notice that it actually tells you why skill training takes real time, your not doing it as a hobby in your ship too gain it, your not reading a book or books on it, the program you buy (the skill) is uploaded into your brain via the Pod your in. So for over 100K bits of real memory that would be placed in and then required time for the brain to lock it into long term memory and not forget it in short term. The developers took all this in. That is why attributes to the way you think (learning points, attribute points) affect you. Not your physical ability.
My rant is all over the place, but the last two subbers (guy I quoted and the one below him) really hit the sweet spot and told me of some of the Intelligence that most of the trial and quiters have when they get annoyed at the learning system.
Yes younglings we don't have levels, so if you must have that for your feeling of accomplishment, go back to the games that have it, you'll love them, Even a few FPS's out there have that system now. Eve doesn't cause it is a Indie doing what it wants, Not a mea corp selling what the masses want for most ISK/money they can get.
i3in/Gary - Shut up and go back to your comforter, I'm sick of your complaints about stuff you don't like. Hear me complain about what I hate in RL with RL people? No. This is for commenting on games how they could be made better without a total re-make. Leave Indie's alone ya Corp Fanboys/girls.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
This comment on it's own nullifies your whole statement beyond the rest of the blather you push to reasoning behind this post to begin with. It is a time payed = skills game period. Being your "new" main doesn't make you a new player :P you have no concept of what this guy posted (to whom you directed your remarks) or any post prior to this.
PS. keep your name calling to yourself, secondly anyone can state what they want about a game here, their likes and dislikes, it is what makes MMORPH.COM a place were allot of people come and more come each day because they can say their piece on a game without being told to shutup. So how about you grow up a bit and learn what you were taught as a kid, Ignore it, change the channel and move on.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"