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MMORPG.COM News: Debate: The Death Penalty
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Every Saturday, two of our writers will go at in a debate over one aspect of MMORPGs. This week, Frank Mignone and Garrett Fuller are arguing about the severity of death penalties. Read their thoughts, then give us your feedback in this thread.
| It used to be, back in the days when your choice was either Ultima Online or Everquest, that there was one constant between them. They were hard! One of the key factors that made it so was their death penalty. The death penalty made the games exciting! Everything was not a cakewalk; you really had to consider your actions. You could lose all of the stuff that you had in your possession with one false move. This added a lot of tension and a bit of white-knuckle-mousing to the experience. How many of you back in the day found yourself, at some point, running for your life shouting 'REDS!' with your heart pounding? It was good times. |
You can read their debate here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
My MMO history starts with FFXI. The way that I looked at it back then or still do :-P. Is that I really disliked the Death Penalty system. It was kissing goodbye to 2 hours of game play. Of course some of those deaths were meant by me....but by another player of the age of 10 training 12 mobs to the zone.
I pay for the game and I want my moneys worth!
I really like the death penatly systems in GW and WoW. But of course thats all I have played so far....I think it really depends on the game developer and how the death penalty works. Just to get one think str8....when you talk about death penatly, I think about FFXI and losing exp. I guess rather have "that Kind" of death penalty in larger area like SWG and EQ.
When, I read about how you lose stuff from the very first EQ???? Dang...that would suck and that would really weed out the good players from the bad ones. I can see alot of people dictching the game just for that reason.
Here is a question? Did EQ have any problems with hackers? Where other players able to loot your body?. Like were they able to do cheap kills and loot you? Anyways I have no idea how EQ game play was like. ....
I find this quote dead on.
I don't think most games should call their death system a penalty. Its not. Or rather, its the most lightly conceived death penalty ever. Only thing easier would quite literally have the person fall over, wait 10 seconds, then stand up and go at it again.
Dying in a virtual world should have meaning. Players should have to actually give consideration to their actions. When you cheapen death you cheapen the entire experience and meaning. The death penalty should be severe enough that players are upset each time they die and try to make an effort to avoid it for next time.
When I play WoW I find myself a lot of times just standing there fighting instead of running away from a battle I'm about to lose. The reason is because there's just no big penalty for death. The penalty for death in WoW is that you get moved to a different position on the map and have to run back to where you were. OH, NOOOO!!!!
I think the penalty for death in EQ is pretty ideal. You lose some XP, you get moved away from the battle, and you have to go find your corpse to get your stuff back. No clicking on the ever forgiving angel guarding the graveyard and popping back to life with all your armor and loot. So, when I play EQ the fighting is a lot more of an adrenaline rush. Losing means something so you have that fear.
Now, as far as having other players PK-ing. That just plain sucks. I have tried games like that and I don't like it. People just grief killing is the reason why. Honestly, if people didn't do that then I think that free for all killing system would be okay. Mostly because you could deal out vengence. hehe. But people do play that way, so I don't play those games.
But, I can understand developers putting the kind of system they have in WoW in place. I don't think it's the most fun for people looking to really be involved in a game, but it appeals to the masses who don't really want to be too involved in a game. EQ is like a lifestyle, WoW is like a shirt you wear for a while and then throw away. That's why there are still so many veteran players in EQ.
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</OBAMA>
i like the death penaltys on eve
if you get killed, you lose your ship and the stuff that survives the blast can be looted by others. if you lose your escape pod, you dont lose any sp unless you have more sp than your clone can handle, in which case you lose half the difference. this system is good because it encourages you to be careful without taking out months of training when you die
there was a game i found out about once that would have had perma-death but a ton of really cool things and would have basicly been just like a different world but it seems to have been canceled (the most recent news on their site is from march last year and before that they said it was on the "back burner")
I can not wait for a game like Trials of Acensions or Adellion or any other game that gives me a reason to actually play.
I mean what the hell is the point of PVP if I can not reap the rewards of scoring a kill which to me is either
A. Looting you dry
B. Knowing I got you one step closer to Perma dying.
C. Both
After that I should be able to dismember your body and hang your head on the walls of my house.
I miss the glory days of UO, I wasn't uber or anything. I did my fair share of dying too. But god no game has ever gave me that rush, that thrill of knowing YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER.
UO had a super tight community too. people would go out of there way to kill you and defend you. you really got to meet a varity of people. and their was no shitty global chat either which to me is the worst thing ever thought of....ever.
life is awesome, a game that simulates the dangers of real life is awesome. I can't wait till more survior type mmos start coming out where the community keeps each other alive and bands together in hard times.
And no fucking instances god if that isnt a slap in the face to the idea of MMOs I don't know what is.
"hey guys lets go play an mmo, they have lots of other people for us to play with........oh check it out lets go play in this room by ourselfs with no hope of the social interaction your supposed to recieve from a mmo in the first place.......yea thats a good idea"
does anyone see stupid that is? grrr can not wait for the next gen of games to come out.
The way I see it, the death penalty in MMORPGs depends purely on the game. While WoW's consists of running back to your corpse, they would have great difficulty running battlegrounds or implementing future 'outdoors' PvP objectives with a serious penalty. While the greatest loss suffered by the losers is to the ego, the winners get increased PvP rank, faction increases, and the loot that comes with it. Games like this seem to move towards a more objective based, FPS style gameplay where the action is fast paced, and goal oriented.
Other games like EVE-Online, have safe places where new characters can learn the game and play it without getting blown to bits by a person who has been around longer and finds himself bored. And yet give both great rewards and risk for people who venture out into low security territory, where players can freely attack them. While you can avoid loosing your progress with skills in the game so far, and gain a goodly amount of the value of the ship you got blown to peices back, the loss of a valuable vessel and any valuable implants can be great. In the most dangerous areas of the universe, you find the most valuable minerals to build with. Only in free-for-all territory can you truly lay claim and build your corporation a base.
Both of these have completely different ends to the gameplay, and the loss suffered upon destruction serves each of them quite well.
IMO, the biggest problem with current MMORPG's like WoW for instance is that death means absolutely nothing. The sweet just isnt sweet without the bitter...
First, in repsonse to the previous poster about instancing. Your an idiot. The very fact that your going into an instance with other REAL PLAYERS is socializing, compared to going in with NPC characters. Of course this isnt what this debate is about now is it :P
As for death penalties, my stance is more towards none. Frankly, I understand alot of peoples idea about how Death Penalties create a more adrenaline pumping pvp type of game. I also understand peoples stance on not wanting to lose hours upon hours of work, because not everyone can spend 24/7 playing a game.
Personally, id like to see two types of servers on most MMORPGS. A penalty free, and one with penalties. That way, both types of players can play the game, and enjoy it, without haveing to deal with eachother. I know I wouldnt mind it, hell I might even make a character on both. One to be able to complete the quests, pvp, and just run around with my buddies without worrying about losing hours of work. And then being able to also go on a server where, should I wish it, I could play with the chance of losing exp, money, or items to other players when I get killed, or by monsters when im outnumbered and make a mistake. The fact is, id have that choice, and thats something I think MMORPG's should incorporate.
Hate it or love it, right now you get your choice between one or the other, not both.
And thats my stance on this subject.
"Oh how wrong we were to think immortality meant never dying."
I think harsh death penalties are great. It's player created content. Think of it this way: if you get pk'd, and that person jacks all your stuff, you now have a personal quest to find that person and reclaim your stolen goods. I think the real problem is the type of game that these mechanics get implemented in.
For instance, in level based games, people have little incentive to pk people their own level. The risk is too high, and it is simply in our nature to pick on those that pose little threat to us. So I propose developers get rid of levels all together--have the game skill/twitch based so those that enter the game pose a decent threat to those vets that have been at it a while. In turn, have real social mechanics that discourage wanton pk behavior. For example, real societies frown on people going around commiting random acts of murder. Get rid of those large floating target nametags as well as all forms of stealth implemented as invisibility.
These sorts of mechanics not only make pvp more of a challenge, but give real risk for someone deciding to jump another player. Not having a clear indication of the risk your prey poses allows for interesting game dynamics. Like the robber that has to travel with his prey a while to establish whether he poses a threat or not, etc.
Kind of jumbled points, but things I have been thinking on a while.
Trials of Ascension.
Something more then instanced quests for solo players (dragons), permadeath (100 lives and then restart), full loot drop and open pvp.
Nuff said.
First of all, you n00bs out there that think WoW has a cool death penalty are idiots. EVE Online has the best death penalty around, you get killed, lose everything you don't have stored, and to avoid uber- PKers, you simply go to a high security area and wait until you can be uber as well and start having more fun. You guys should seriously stop buying into the crap certain companies seem to like to produce for the stupid masses and help out the pro-gamers so they will start producing some more amazing stuff for us to buy.
I can pwn if I want to, I can leave my pants behind...
Yea but its not a massive multiplayer experience. you might as well go play diablo 2.
I vote for Frank Mignone's point of view
i think it's the kind of debate for which we should do a poll with all the mmorpg.com readers.
could be interesting.
I think a players account should have a "death meter", if you get killed then it fills up and instead of getting experience debt your abilities are weakened, like Guild Wars except you can't remove it simply be going to a town. Maybe the death meter empties over time or you have to pay to empty it. The idea behind having it linked to an account rather then per character is so that the player doesn't just log in an alt with no penalties, otherwise what's the point in having the penalty.
Only games I've played that had 'realistic' penalties are EVE and actually Horizons system was interesting: in that if you die you get weakened abilities for 8 hours, if you die again it stacks up until a maximum of -20%, pity it was kack LOL.
Where are the choices? Beyond Diablo II HC, there are none for the PD/death penalty advocates that play for the risk/reward and like to know that achievement requires skill and requires guts and adrenaline.
To put it bluntly, the current crop of games with subscriptions equal a MEANINGLESS AND COSTLY time-sink hell with pretty graphics. It disgusts me to see that design has devolved as technology has evolved. I don't have time to compete with those players out there who are level-centric, gear-centric, game addicts who put countless hours of time in at the expense of their families, education, and health. I'm not bitter at them so much as I am at the game companies out there who refuse to grow a set just like their softcore demographic and recognize a growing niche when they see one.
Just one former MMORPG enthusiast's opinion. Thanks.
For those who dare to hope, hope for beta: www.trialsofascension.com
Permadeath and environmental challenges are the next great step in the evolution of MMORPGs. Only through true adversity will one feel accomplished. Only in truly knowing you can die will true adversity present itself.
In PVE games, I think small debts like in COH are okay...
In PVP system based games, like lineage2 or others... There's ways to reward without punishing... or a small punishment at most... It really boils down as to what's implemented into the game (for example, are there rare drops or not?)... The point is, you just need players to try to survive without scaring them from attempting anything...
Now don't flame me for playing RuneScape at one time I'm just using at as an exmple here.
Ok,some MMORPGers might have started out with ol' RuneScape. I did and after awhile it just got flatout boring. So then my friend logs in and I ask "Hey,wanna go to the wilderness?"Then we'd go there and if we saw high-lvl players my hand would turn cold and my heart would start pumping.
Why? Because if you go into Wilderness(pvp area)with good items the penalty is losing all the items you have with you except the three most valuable items. This is why we'd risk going in there,to enjoy having the fear of dying in the game. That's what usually draws us back to that game today. The fact that we can jump in and go to the wilderness to see how much fun we can have running from high-lvl pkers or killing newbs.
So I'd say harsh DPs are annoying,but they have an joyful side to them.
MMOs I've played:
RuneScape
Conquer Online
MapleStory
Flyff
Gunz
Guild Wars
"The one who begins with nothing, gains everything slowly."
There needs to be a balance between the two. Death has to have meaning, but at the same time these games are meant to be fun and so a mistake should not cost you so much that it's frustrating. Another thing to consider is that in a MMO things can happen that aren't your fault, such as lag. Imagine playing a hardcore (one life) game, you've spent hundreds of hours building a character, grown attached to it, then while out hunting the server hiccups and your entire team is wiped during the lag. Game over.
I think a small, 1-10% exp penalty is enough. 10% at low levels where exp is fast, 1% at the highest levels where it might take 2 hours to earn that 1% back. With that death stings, but it doesn't make you throw your keyboard at the wall.
Why not have the best of both Worlds?
Let's say you have a WoWish debt penalty for the game, however, in 3 zones you have only a few lifes for the months, you run out of those lives, well to bad those zones are off limit till next month.
Death pentalty should not sting at all moments and everywhere, it should be, only for a few zones. Casuals would likely avoid those zones althogether...or play and be careful for their few lives there.
Losing gear or XP belong to a past era and we hopefully never walk there again. But a death penatly that sting in a few zones (like lives per month, which is a softcore permanent death). Running out of lives is certainly having a powerful sting feeling to it, peoples would care a LOT. And if they run out of lives, well they can always play in other areas of the game for the remaining of the month. Especially that now you can have stronger races with 1 life or very few and funnier races (hafring power) with tons of lives.
I would not design those few zones as casuals trap either...nobody would want to go there in order to be better in any other aspect of the game, it would be a end game on it own, having it local uberness and shiny stuff that doesn't affect the rest of the game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Windbane druid of Everquest
Playing an MMO without a death penalty, is like playing poker without betting. It's no fun. Every little victory rings hollow, because there was no risk involved.
There are those that will disagree and say, "but I don't want to be killed! I want to leave the computer and take a smoke without getting ganked! I don't want to loose my gold! I don't want to loose xp!". To that I say , "Play checkers lately?" The answer is, no you haven't. Why? Because checkers is easy and predictable. Just like WoW and ever other current mainstream MMO today. They are too easy. They allow you to risk nothing.
The only thing worse then an MMO with no death penalty is a MMO with instances. A friend at work said it best when describing WoW. He said, "When you hit 60, you leave the world." And he's right. After 60, you spend all your time in instances. World PvP is dead, and the world of WoW is empty. PvP is just a speed-bump on the way to another instance. It's no penalty.
Hopefully Frank and Garrett can talk about the cons and CONs of instances in their next article. Or they can discuss, "If you res ever 30 sec or less are you really playing an mmoRPG?".
There needs to be a balanced death penalty however NOT this kind of crap lots of you are posting about statloss or exp loss or whatever.
Exp loss or temp stat loss is not a good option, these are just an annoyance and gain for absolutely nobody.
Dropping items on death is the way to go, when you die your gear and items you were carrying are left with your corpse, you can run back and retrieve them, but only if somebody else doesn't beat you to it. Of course you shouldn't be able to just loot everybodies corpse without consequences, it should be a crime unless you were in a guild at war with the person, the only time this would not be a criminal act is when you were attacked first.
Dropping your items on death is a penalty good enough for anyone, but theres a key factor that makes this penalty reign supreme over ALL over penalties mentioned, with this penalty, you may be at a loss for losing your equipment, but in the likelyhood that somebody else loots you, that person will be at a gain for aquiring all your stuff, your loss will be equal to his gain.
This way, its not just a lose-lose situation for all players when they die and get some crappy stat loss penalty, the player that dies may lose his gear, if he doesn't manage to get it back, its because somebody else has, its perfectly balanced, you feel loss and penalty equal to the gain the person who aquired your gear feels.
Full loot is the perfectly balanced yet so simple answer to all our problems, the devs just have to know not to give into the whiners who cry when they die, the devs need to remember, that for every person who whines that they lost their gear, theres another person out there whos feeling rather chuffed about his newly aquired items, yet he doesnt go crying to the devs about it, so his opinion goes unheard.
This system with done with the right mechanics will be the new style kind of MMO's when somebody does it right, i am just awaiting the day an MMO of this style emerges.
The current crapping penalty systems are hardly even a penalty, and the ones that are a penalty are merely an annoyance, as i said above, stat loss or exp loss is a gain for NOBODY, its just a lose-lose situation for the player and nobody feels good or gets any reward from it. This is the style of MMO where players become bored and end up quitting after they feel they have achieved all the main content and there is nothing left to do.
Darq - I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Without some death penalty there is no reason to be careful in the gameplay. It was probably the main reason for my getting board with WoW; "oh well I'm going to die - and I can't even be bother to try and run for it ... "
On the other hand, how annoying is it to get wiped out because the phone rang, server lagged, or the missus caught you playing again. I would say PvE death should really set you back much more than hour's play tops. While PvP, it should just take you out of play for awhile (after all the whole point of PvP is to kill and to be killed).
As for equipment loss, fine if you only die every now and again; but I suspect most players die frequenty in PvP, if you don't either you are truely l33t or in a gank group - I suspect the latter. As a casual player - I'm not going to PvP if not only am I going to get run over by a 8 man group but I get to loose all hard won loot too. Consequently, PvP dies the death; expect for a few hard core players.