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WoW and Blizzard lack of support for GLBT players.
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The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
Its the same thing as saying, "Roto Rooter is recruiting players for our guild. We are friendly towards men who like f*cking women."
Nobody needs to know who you're playing hide the salami with, it shouldn't even be part of the conversation.
You're playing a game that's full of little kids, but you wanna advertise your sexual feelings to everybody.
That's not right.
You're advertising as a GBLT guild in order to promote awareness of your existance to young children, so that they will in no uncertain terms know that you are a man who has sex with other men, that you exist, and that you are proud of your lifestyle.
But this is a fantasy game, promoting real-life agendas has no place here.
Why do you think they can show someone getting ripped in half or any number of grusome or violent things on TV but a nipple has to be blurred out and only shown after 10 pm..Because violence is a normal every day thing and sex is dirty and will warp out childern and make them evil.......
You can talk ,swear and be as nasty as you like in chat and that's normal, if you want to discuss anything to do with sex that's harassment or offencive and you'll get banned.
It's not blizzard that sets this standard, so you can't really blame them for it.
Wow, that's amaing. It's clear that you have no concept of what GLBT stands for. Nor are you in the least bit aware that the person who was advertising in game wasn't even a man, but a woman. Somehow I doubt she is looking to play "hide the salami" and I now SHE isn't a man who has sex with other men.
Does gender really matter ? the point was people don't need to know.
If you want a guild friendly to gays then become a guild leader. If you're own guild isn't friendly enough..you only have yourself to blame.
You don't need to tell the whole server that you're a gay friendly guild. It could be part of your interview and just be subtle about it..IE there are openly gay people in this guild so if that's a problem don't join. It shouldn't matter what sexual orientation someone is, they shouldn't be make that part of thier public image in a kid friendly game.
!DANGER! !READING THIS RANT MAY CAUSE YOU TO FLAME!
I am not subscribed to World of Warcraft. However, if I was, the first thing I would do is go on that server, and join that GLBT friendly guild.
But here is the ironic thing about joining that guild.
I am not even gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered.
I would join that guild hands down over every one of the guilds of the posters here who argue against them. I don't even care how big your rolls are, or how big your TeamSpeak server is, how many raids you go on, or how cool your guild website looks like.
I would choose the guild that that takes recruiting people with open minds seriously. Seriously enough that they make it known up front, that their new guild will expect members to have respect and consideration for those that may be different than they are used to.
It seems to me to be a far better choice than the guilds of many here, who talk so much about Blizzard having the right to choose what they do and do not admit into their service. A better choice than the guilds of many here that argue that if GLBT subscribers have the right to form a GLBT friendly guild, they have the same right to form a KKK friendly guild.
I think a distinction has to be made between freedom of association, and toleration.
Its easy to argue that we should have the right to associate with whomever we want. It doesn't take much maturity to prefer our "own type of folk." In fact, its a sign of cowardice, in my opinion. One doesn't have to ever be faced with anything different that calls into question our own personal Weltanschauung about the world. Its easy to get along in a group where there are no issues.
But toleration is much harder, and I believe, is a mark of much greater maturity. Its so hard, that its something nobody really masters in life. Toleration means that I don't have to necessarily like or understand what others are about. In fact, I don't even have to prefer, or even find what others are about to be acceptable to me. But what toleration does require is a willingness to understand that someone else may have unique considerations that may seem alien to me, but that I must nevertheless respect.
"Respect" is a word that seems to have been lost on us. It doesn't mean you have to like something to respect something. It only means that one is mindful of the needs of those around them, and to be mindful of the manner in which we approach others. Its not cowardice. Its not tyranny. Its not something that will make one a "loser," or a "carebear." But I do think it used to be necessary in the world, and something that we sure could use now.
I say "used to," because if there is one thing I have noticed among the adherents of this new medium of exchange, its that to ask them to respect something they do not like is to ask them the impossible, or so it seems.
Its far too easy when we can sit with our individual laptops, with our individual communities, talking about the individual right to espouse whatever our individual feelings of the moment explain to us; that we forget sometimes the days before BBS.
Its no wonder nobody talks much about respect and toleration anymore. We don't really need it in an era where its easier than ever before to pick and choose our own communities, hiding behind monitors, being known only by our individually chosen handles.
But have you seen the boards of your favorite MMO lately? I just got done in another post talking about the sorry state of the SWG forums. The dialogue is raw, passionate, and full of individualism. But do you think that many of us would assert our individual right to be unrepentantly opinionated and close minded if we had to share dinner with the ones in our online forums, or in our game worlds?
To those who would say that Blizzard's ownership of the game service gives them the right to deny the open recruitment notice of a guild that takes GLBT toleration seriously shows a lot about how much we value Blizzard's right to enforce what it believes to be necessary to its image as a "family friendly" game. How many of us would be willing to give Blizzard a pass to Blizzard's right to deny the open recruitment notice of a US Armed Forces friendly guild on the basis of wanting to encourage an "political friendly" game?
I say that the right of Blizzard to determine what it does and does not want in its game says nothing about how tolerant or intolerant it is. And I say that it is intolerant. That may not mean much to many of us, but it matters to me, and it matters to a group of gamers who take toleration seriously.
To those who would say that if one is to create a guild that is allowed open recruitment on the basis of GLBT toleration opens the door to guilds that are allowed open recruitment on the basis of white supremacist toleration needs to look a little closer at how "white supremacist toleration" just doesn't make sense. Being a white supremacist is incompatible with toleration, because a white supremacist by definition feels that their right of association trumps any responsibility to be tolerant of other races.
Which by the looks of some threads here, is frighteningly similar to the way many of us are talking.
But I think that there is nothing inherently problematic about being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or queer, that disqualifies them from being tolerant. In fact, quite the opposite. I am straight, but the more I looked at the issues of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and those whose biological sex does not correspond to their true gender; I have found that each one of these groups has different outlooks, different issues, different difficulties, and different predisposition.
The issues that gay males face are much different than those of the transgendered community. Contrary to what many straights believe, there is as much disagreement between gays, lesbians, the transgendered, and bisexuals as there is between the GLBT community as a whole, and the straight community. The difference though is that they have learned the lost practice of toleration of their differences. Something I wish people as a whole would take more seriously, especially in MMOs.
On Monday, we celebrated Martin Luther King day. But I don't think that Martin Luther King, when he implored us to "disagree without being disagreeable," was talking about our right to associate with whomever we like, and do whatever suited our fancy. He was talking about toleration, or to at least be respectful to those who we may not necessarily like.
Yes we here talk all about the rights of people to do what they want with whom we want. But have we ever heard of toleration?
I call BS on this "right of association," argument, and I could give a damn about what rights we think we are entitled to. This thread right here proves why GLBT gamers need to bring these issues up when playing these games. There is so little toleration in those who play MMORPGs, and those who run MMORPGs, its sick, and can't be healthy for the growth of this genre.
So why would a straight gamer want to join a GLBT tolerant guild?
Not because they are GLBT, but because at least I know they are tolerant.
Which is more than I can say for some (and maybe most), online gamers.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Why do they have to make a public show of it. You can be open minded without rubbing it in everyones face. Having an open recruitment that doesn't put up with bashing other people doesn't have to be a public spectical. If anything, causing a seen like this only shows that they don't have any respect for the people who don't want to see this in thier child friendly game.
What I find objectional about this whole thing is that it looks to me that the person this topic is talking about is more interested in being a shit disturber than actaully creating the guild. At least thats the impression i got from reading their first post in this topic.
wheter they are right or wrong to ban this person for introducing sexual content into a game that many children play is debatable as every parent has their own idea on what to tell their children about such things.
BUT it should have come as NO surprise what the companies reaction would be given the contraversie of such a topic in todays world. And given what that person said their reaction was by contacting everyone they could to iquire into legal action and contacting every organization they knew of about this in a transparent bid to create a fire storm .... well they have a term for people like that on disscusion boards .... troll.
I'm not sure that the issue here has much to do with making a public show. It has to do with this message:
"OZ is recruiting all levels, but especially 50-60s! We are working on our
Onyxia Chains and will be doing UBRS and hopefully Onyxia soon! We are not
"glbt only", but we are "glbt friendly"! http://guilduniverse.com/oz"
Perhaps I may not be as sensitive to how this is offensive, or sexual. In fact, there is nothing in here that talks about sex, or even hints about sex. This is not Brokeback mountain. Its not even Spartacus. It mainly talks about the guild's short term goals, and what sorts of characters they are looking for.
To be fair, it does say that they are "glbt friendly." What did it not say? That it was a glbt guild. It is not a guild that makes any sort of reference that it is in any way, shape, or form, a matchmaking service, or even that it has much to do with GLBT issues at all. If anything, the guild is about doing the things any guild does, questing, looting, and exploring the World of Warcraft.
The only thing in here that can be remotely considered sexual in a literal reading of the message, is that it is "glbt friendly." Not "glbt horny." Also, does it make any difference if the guild is all GLBT, or if only some members are GLBT? If I were a guild leader, and had some members who were GLBT--even one member who was GLBT--I would (with the consent of the GLBT minority), make that final caveat, if it would help:
1) Get some new members, who are good players, but are skeptical about joining guilds on the basis of their sexual orientation.
2) Make it clear up front before anyone approaches us that we do tolerate those who are GLBT, and that one should apply only if that doesn't bother them.
3) Ward off posts on the forum that say things like, "Oz r a buncha homos cuz they asked me all sorts of homo questions over groupchat lol," because when something this controversial to many is kept secret, it is oftentimes interpreted with motives that aren't there.
In fact, there are many reasons to say that one is GLBT friendly that have nothing to do with sex--gay or otherwise.
If my son or daughter ever saw this and said to me, "what is GLBT friendly?" I would say to him or her, "it means they don't care if people are different." How is that a lie, and what does that have to do with parading one's sexuality?
This isn't some sort of declaration that they are staging some Orc's "coming out party" in the middle of the Arathi Basin for all to see while playing "Its Raining Men," over a public TeamSpeak server. Its a caveat that doesn't even hold a central place in the message.
And Blizzard thinks this message appeals to a prurient interest?!?
I simply don't know how one who isn't looking for something they shouldn't can interpret it to be anything other than what it is: a guild that is just like hundreds of other guilds in World of Warcraft, that just happens to mention that they are tolerant of those who are "glbt."
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Look at the OPs sig and tell me again that he/she/whatever is not trying to rub thier sexual orientation in peoples face. Blizzard sent her(?) a form letter telling her to stop doing XXXX. All she had to do was reword it and nothing more would have been said. Instead she got out her little soap box and tried to stur up a new age crusade. That to me is not open minded, it's a drama queen.
I've been a member of many guilds that are friendly to any and all "alternative life style" people. None of them have ever had a problem with game devs because they just quietly go about thier business in public and carry on however they want in guild chat.
Recruitment posts that are vauge enough that most people just pass over it but obvious to the people they are intended for work just as well without all the drama. People who act like this don't help thier cause, nor do they raise awarness, they just make the rest of the people on the fence lean the wrong way.
From what I gather, Blizzard did not sanction him on the basis of his MMORPG.com signature. They sanctioned him for mentioning his guild was tolerant of alternative lifestyles.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Blizzard is (was) an excelent game company. Unfortunately something happened in their managment levels that turned this company into a complete hell of player harrasment.
In this years vote for most unethical company I vote Blizzard without any doubt.
And this GLBT stuff is just one drop in the pile of shit Blizzard does daily to players.
Like banning withouth any reason or explanation ...
The only reason i dont play WOW is because i hate Blizzard so much
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
Although I understand the reasons for creating a glbt-friendly guild, much like ethnicity-only guilds are formed (Danish-only, German-only, etc) for pretty much the same reasons (building social relationships in a group with common interests), I believe it's the right of Blizzard to moderate as they see appropriate to maintain a peaceful climate in the game. Unfortunately, a guild that openly advertises as "glbt-friendly" may stir up the more conservative members of the community and create a bad climate in a gaming world.
In any case, I never really liked guilds that base their membership in an RL aspect (like Greek-only guilds, for instance). A gaming world is a very good opportunity to meet people from very different backgrounds and form international friendships. In doing so, such an international virtual world assists in creating an RL non-discrimination climate. It's sad to form such guilds when you have the opportunity to socialize with a variety of people with various social backgrounds.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Noone's claiming the problem with the guild is the fact it's GLBT friendly because...
>>>>>MOST GUILDS ARE GLBT FRIENDLY!<<<<<<<
By your logic, the next time someone creates a guild in the game they'd have to say something like this:
"Guardians of Power now recruiting. Black/gay/chinese/bi/left wing/right wing/jewish friendly guild!"
Just the sort of thing we want to see in a game designed for ESCAPING REALITY.
...
I'm beginning to think this whole post is a big troll... in which case, nice job!
So we automatically assume that someone who is gay is a sex-crazed fiend, and can think of nothing else? No wonder there is so much fear surrounding gay gamers, and why gay gamers feel the need to protect themselves.
You seem to have this notion that just because they have a different sort of sexuality, that all they do is talk about deviant and kinky sex, and act it out in the game? Grow up kid. The only ones who seem to be "sex crazed" in this debate are the ones who say Blizzard had even a remote point in doing what they did. I don't see the ones from this guild talking about sex. If anything, they are talking about quests.
If a group of women came together, and created a guild that was sympathetic to women, and their issues, would open recruiting of that guild constitute a "prurient interest" as well? They are stating they are sympathetic to the needs of women, which constitutes something of a sexual nature too.
Yet if a group of heterosexual women came here and said that Blizzard gave a sanction against their guild on the basis that since they claimed that they were open to hearing talk of a feminine nature, that they simply must be talking about male genitals, and sex toys? Get real. Maybe in some sick fantasies about what we think is going on there, its true. But only a sex-crazed, or "prurient" individual would ever assume that.
This whole issue is about people getting offended that there are gays and lesbians who play World of Warcraft. Period.
Apparently, you and many here believe its all well and good if we don't know they are there, but as soon as we start to talk about the need for player made institutions that make it a point to be tolerant of them, then all of the sudden, we are crossing the line into sexual deviance?
I'm straight, but I call BS.
People in MMORPGs hate gays. That's the heart of the matter, kid. I didn't want to say it in quite that strong of language, but that's the reason Blizzard did what it did. Too many people hate gays, and are suspicious of those that have different sexual orientations to the point where Blizzard would rather placate the haters, than promote tolerance, and understanding.
I'm straight and heterosexual. But I'm not so ignorant to assume that anyone who is not straight and heterosexual is a pervert and a molester.
Because chances are kid, if you were to listen in on what glbt's are talking about on Ventrillo, you wouldn't hear graphic depictions of barebacking, and that sort of thing.
You'd probably hear the same things you'd hear on any other voice server. Things like tanking MOBs, and pulling the right one.
Occasionally however, you might hear someone say, "I have to call it a night...does the side effects of AZT get better with time?"
And I think it is for that reason, that lgbt's want the ability to say, "our guild understands."
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
<--- Not G, L, B or even T
<--- Has many friends who are GLBT
<--- Is highly offended by Blizzard's stance in this matter.
Blizzard does nothing about the bigots who spam anti-homosexual insults in General Chat, yet they attack OZ for their Guild Recruitment? I've seen OZ's in-game chat messages, and the only thought that came to my mind was "Well, that's cool!"... from the responses to that message in the chat channel (i.e., no negative responses), it looked like nobody had a problem with it. Obviously, I was wrong.
If I hadn't been in a Guild already, I might have applied to join OZ myself. The ToS is absolutely clear about this issue (as has been shown on Page 1 of this thread), yet they persist with their effort against OZ? This is sickening. Consider my account cancelled, Blizz.
Currently playing:
LOTRO, Rift (beta) and WoW (on occasion)
First, let us not forget that this is NOT a "child friendly" game. It's rated T for Teen because of Blood, SUGGESTIVE THEMES, Use of Alcohol, and Violence. All of you people using children as an argument can't possibly do so simply because, if you want to talk about keeping your children sheltered, you shouldn't be letting them play a video game that's rated for Teens because of it's use of suggestive themes and such.
Second, as for all of you who think that I'm making a "public show" of the situation without reason. . . I'm sure LOTS of people felt the SAME way you do, when Rosa Parks wouldn't just move from her seat without making SUCH a "public show" of it. However, I doubt Rosa expected those white folk to understand why she felt it was so important to make a "public show" of herself. . . and in the same respect, I don't expect anyone else not in my situation to understand why I'm making a "public show" of the situation either.
~
Sara E Andrews
http://guilduniverse.com/oz
http://hometown.aol.com/prismaticecho
It's sad how many people would just rather have the GLBT community stay "in the closet". Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. The problem is, there are over 5,000,000 people paying to play WoW now. It is impossible to believe that certain like-minded groups wouldn't have joined together into Guilds, such as OZ tries to do with the GLBT community.
I see Christian Guilds all the time, advertising as such in the chat channels. Why aren't they told to be quiet by Blizzard? Those guild adverts might offend players of other religions. I'm Wiccan, maybe I should start reporting them? Wanna bet what Blizzard's response will be?
Currently playing:
LOTRO, Rift (beta) and WoW (on occasion)
As for the second paragraph, I cannot see how advertising a guild of one religion can offend another religion. If Blizzard would show bias against other religions, then I'd understand the complaint (for instance, not allowing Wiccan or Buddhist based guilds while Christian ones are allowed).
Noone should stay in the closet, be it for their sexual preferences or religious beliefs and I do understand the reasons to form a glbt guild. But I would say that isolating in specific guilds because of an RL element is just as bad as staying in the closet, as you isolate and differentiate yourself from the rest of the community. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to base guilds on in-game friendships instead of RL elements and form social relationships despite religious, racial or sexual orientation differences?
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Americans want nothing to do with gays.Look at all the polls.
the stone age was well over a million years ago.....don't you think it's time to move on ?
Americans want nothing to do with gays.Look at all the polls.
What a load of crap. You're not fighting for equil rights, you want special treatment. You're not allowed to advertize you're a gay friendly guild for the same reason I shouldn't be allowed to have a hetero friendly guild. Blizzard doesn't want guilds founded on who or what you like to sleep with.
I'm a strong, very vocal supporter of equil rights for GLB and whatever else as long as it's human and adult, people. I will not however side with someone who wants special treatment. I don't think laws should be made that say it's alright for 2 gays to marry. I think that's BS. The law should be written so no one is singled out and and two people who want to marry can no matter what sex they are. The same goes for guilds in games. It shouldn't be alright for you or anyone to focuse on sexual orientation as you public stance on recruitment.