Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Thinman Sounds a bit like an assemblage of retards, all sitting around trying to figure out why they aren't like normal people. As much as they may try to come up with something, they won't be able to... because they're still retarded. No they have the "retards" like Jeff Freeman anywhere but Seattle. They have "second stringers" like the current SWG team in Austin, because anyone good is getting sent to work on "Smed's big plan." I think SOE knew all along that it was only a matter of time before LucasArts was going to end it anyway. Think about it. What the heck is a software and computer arts powerhouse like LucasArts doing with SOE anyways, unless they were taking notes and developing their own MMO? So why have their studs like Koster and Walton go down with the sinking ship, especially when they are needed in Seattle to pwn Blizzard's butt.
Their "studs" are lame ducks. They are nothing like they claim to be. They have no idea how to make a worthwhile game.
Why are they thought so well of? Because they wear suits and talk down to gamers?
Why do you let these people make you think like this? They're bastardized versions of game developers. Why would you want to pay to be a victim of their bullshit?
Because I want good games man. I don't want them pushed out before they are ready. I want good people working on them too. I also want it to be bug free, have more content than I can possibly ever do, be balanced, and not be subject to having to sell out to make more cash money.
No, it doesn't sound like the SOE we have come to know. But it does sound like what this new MMO that is under development is going to change.
If the game is good, I'm there man. That's what gamers do. I have to think though that behind SOE's apparent greed, there are good artists that are sick of marketing, pushing out buggy code, and being beholden to suits.
That is why they are holed up in Seattle, and the only folk they need answer to are Smed, and John Donham, who are people they can trust. They are not prostituting themselves to preorders, investors, the online mags, F13, the cesspit, and any two-bit armchair MMO guru that has some opinion. They are approaching this thing like they should as artists. Like a fine automobile.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Thinman Why do you let these people make you think like this? They're bastardized versions of game developers. Why would you want to pay to be a victim of their bullshit? Because I want good games man. I don't want them pushed out before they are ready. I want good people working on them too. I also want it to be bug free, have more content than I can possibly ever do, be balanced, and not be subject to having to sell out to make more cash money. No, it doesn't sound like the SOE we have come to know. But it does sound like what this new MMO that is under development is going to change. If the game is good, I'm there man. That's what gamers do. I have to think though that behind SOE's apparent greed, there are good artists that are sick of marketing, pushing out buggy code, and being beholden to suits. That is why they are holed up in Seattle, and the only folk they need answer to are Smed, and John Donham, who are people they can trust. They are not prostituting themselves to preorders, investors, the online mags, F13, the cesspit, and any two-bit armchair MMO guru that has some opinion. They are approaching this thing like they should as artists. Like a fine automobile.
I hear you.. By there track record I wouldn't touch any game they make with a 10-foot pole, until at least 3 months after it'd come out. If there's anything they're good at, it's making a bad situation look good.. that seems to be all that they're good at.
Personally, I'm banking on indie developers in general, and the occasional really good larger developer. SOE is the last place that I would look for worthwhile games, though.
Originally posted by Thinman Personally, I'm banking on indie developers in general, and the occasional really good larger developer. SOE is the last place that I would look for worthwhile games, though.
Indies like Farlan? Like the ones who were doing Mourning?
The problem with the startups is that they need to make money ASAP. They can't afford to take their time to do it right. The problem with SWG is that it was pushed out too soon. I think SOE learned that if they were going to do well in terms of the art of design, they needed to "serve no whines before their time."
Everquest II also was rushed out before it was ready, mainly because of WoW. I think SOE learned that they shouldn't have their competition dictate their game plan.
Don't get me wrong dude. I think it sucks to be a gamer today, especially in SWG. But I'd say that with SOE or anyone else right now. But they are getting better, and I don't think SOE is stupid enough to blow this next one. They are, perhaps for the first time ever in MMOs, doing what we as gamers always wanted. That's to take the time to do it right.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 If there is an SWG 2, I would think its going to be done in house, by LucasArts people only. We have to remember that LucasArts never intended to have SOE develop SWG. They made the original deal with Verant. Only because Verant was bought by Sony Pictures, do we even have SOE's involvement in SWG. Sony and LucasArts are not natural allies. They are competitors in all areas, especially film, and computer entertainment. LucasArts has the staff, the resources, and the will to build their own MMOG. Its just they needed a little bit of experience, and inside information, on how to run it. They have that now because of their involvement here. Also, for reasons the previous poster mentioned, I don't think SOE wants much to do with LucasArts. Everything SOE is doing is for the sake of what is going on in Seattle, which is the one project they cannot afford to screw up. In Seattle, SOE is bringing together quite possibly the biggest brain trust ever to be assembled for a single MMO. We know Koster is there. Which means its only reasonable Vogel is there too. I wouldn't be suprised if Gordon Walton was there, and any developer who showed any bit of rare talent in EQ2, SWG, or MXO. Chances are, if your favorite Dev is no longer working at your favorite MMO, he or she is in Seattle, working on "Raph and John's big plan." Its going to be big, its going to change the way we look at games, and its going to make WoW look like a garage operation. I have no love for SOE, but personally I'd like to see what they come up with. We may think SOE is like , but we have to at least admit that these guys can be smart. They are taking all the data they learn about their games, and sending it to Seattle. I'd actually like to get my hands on that data, because its one thing to say "players want good customer service," its another thing to say "we have empirical evidence that these x specific customer service related facets have y effect on player sentiment." They have what Blizzard doesn't, and that's a bunch of different platforms they can use as "quasi experiments" to learn what works, and what doesn't. SOE is learning a great deal about players, MMOs, and the connection between the two.
LA is so anal over their own IP it would make sense for them to just make a new MMORPG on their own. Since Lucas Arts is finished with the films I imagine Skywalker Ranch would be well suited for working on a new star wars MMORPG. Imagine having the designers of the films being world builders for the next SW MMORPG I cant even imagine the possibilities thats going to be the next step for games, having the Hollywood talent get involved... however, I dont think LA would make its own game, I cant think of a single game they have made in house off the top of my head (is there one?).
I just dont see LA making its own game; I mean why wouldnt they just make every SW game in-house?
Is LA entering the digital camera market? Did I miss something? How do you figure Sony and LA are competitors? George runs a monopoly on his IP and he runs his own show I dont see how they are competitors LA is in competition with no one other then itself.
As far as the Seattle project goes, Ive only just begun to hear about this. I think its strange that Ralf K. has been so silent over the NGE, so Im guessing hes working on a new project and SWG is all but distant a memory for him.
Whatevers going on in Seattle, its Smeds new pet project where I bet you anything hes going to use his experimental Velvet Rope payment plan. Im more curious than excited over whatevers going on at the Seattle Skunkworks for the simple reason that its in SOEs hands (its bound to fall apart).
That, and the velvet rope idea sounds terrible so i'm secretly hoping for its failure.
LucasArts is a division of LucasFilm. LucasArts describes itself as an international developer and publisher of computer entertainment. Now this doesn't mean they don't farm out some projects to small development houses like Pandemic, who did Battlefront; or Petroglyph, who is doing this new Empire at War. But make no mistake, LucasArts is the one wearing the pants in the family.
But SOE is not like Pandemic, or Petroglyph. SOE is a division of Sony Pictures, which is the movie making division of Sony. Sony's Imageworks studio is one of Industrial Light and Magic's competitors, and there is a war right now between LucasFilm's sound system, THX, and Sony's sound system, SDDS. Sony is winning against Lucas in the post-production services war. So no, Lucas doesn't churn out flat screens, and digital cameras. But Sony is into all the things that Lucas is into, and is winning.
In short, Sony is the very embodiment of everything that Lucas himself is against. A big studio system, that is making it harder for independent studios and filmmakers like him to survive. It was all well and good when Lucas could play "Big Papa" to a young and independent Verant. But there can only be one "Big Papa," and Verant was bought by Sony, which was tantamount to Anakin turning to the darkside.
Skywalker ranch, I agree, will be perfect for building a new MMO. That's why Lucas will do it. I don't think he can afford not to do it, and I wouldn't be surprised if development was already started years ago.
As far as Smedley and his "velvet rope," that is only one idea he's been tossing around. He has /pizza too (the command in Everquest that allows one to order from Pizza Hut for delivery), has the Station Exchange experiment going on in EQ2, and has virtual billboards going on in MXO.
The reason we hear so much about the pay for ingame perks plan, is it is the most controversial, and he is trying to gauge public reaction to it. But be that as it may, I don't think they are designing this new game around the revenue structure, but rather, designing the game, and will pick at a later time what revenue generators will be appropriate. If the "velvet rope" ain't going to fly, it ain't going in. They'll do something else instead.
But the one thing for certain is that if the game is not there, nothing fancy is going to work. The game has to be high quality, and Smed knows it. That is why he, Donham, and Koster are taking their time. Nothing less than perfection will do. Because think about it Dolanious, what at this point is going to get you back to SOE? Only the most perfect MMO you have ever seen.
That is what they are doing in Seattle.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Saying that because one group of indie developers was a bunch of scumbags, then all indie developers must be scumbags.. is a rather limited way of thinking.
That's like saying that because one small candy maker makes crappy candy, all other small candy makers must make crappy candy. The argument makes no sense.
There are plenty of games out there, which were made by small developers, which are much better than the overbloated hunks of crap that companies that make games just to make money shill out.
Indie developers, for the most part, are actual gamers themselves. Rather than people with degrees in business who have no idea of the concepts of good gameplay, or customer satisfaction.
I don't think I am saying that about small developers Thinman. There are interesting things coming from that sector, but we have to be fair.
All of these MMOs, regardless of size, need to worry about revenue. They may not be in it to make "fat cash," but they have overheads, and fixed expenses.
But here is the problem that the Indies have. They are not getting their financing from Corporate. They are getting their financing from banks, and venture capitalists, who also have a lien on the creative work as well.
In other words, they are not going to let the money go, without having a say as to what goes on there if they at any point determine that their investments are at risk. The problem is, these folks don't care about art. They don't care about quality. They only care about their portfolios, and getting a return on their investment.
The problem is that the Indies cannot just develop, design, and code. They have to be on the phone with the banks and VCs all the time, who are saying "where's my money." Not only that, but as time goes on, these sources of startup capital start to exert their influence more and more, and they will play hardball too, saying things like, "our research determines 55% of your forum posts have to do with this class being underbalanced. Take the class out, move on, and get us money." At that point, it will be impossible to ask them for more money, unless you show money.
Enter preorders, and all that other slimy stuff. It gets you revenue, but then now you have to deal with the fanbase, who will become more impatient for a live game. The finance people see this too, and they start to see their $$$ interests dissolve, which causes the Indie to put the thing out before it is ready.
But notice all this, Thinman. All these people at the Indie, who just want to make games, are ending up being PR people and "yes men." These folks at SOE played that game when they were Verant, you can't blame them for wanting to make a change.
The difference between Sony, and an Indie, is that Smedley and Co. don't have to prostitute themselves to the VCs and banks anymore. Yes, Sony wants to see them succeed, but its the difference between, "John, let's talk about what we can do to help each other," and, "dude, where's my damn money?"
I admit that SOE has been doing a lot of things that seem "bourgeois," and money driven with their current titles in the last five years. I see it as finishing up old Verant business, and paving the way for this next MMO. They needed to build a little bit of trust with their new partners, and they needed to generate enough startup capital within their own division to make something like Seattle possible to develop for a long, long time.
Not for the money so much, but for the game, and what these folks out of Origin, Verant, and everywhere never really had. That's a protector that will let the folks design, and not have them worry anymore about revenue, preorders, and finding more VCs.
Its got to make money. Then again, I don't know of an MMO right now that doesn't worry about revenue, and the Indies most of all.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I used to think like you Beatnik, until I started playing EVE. EVE is made by CCP, a "small company" if you can call it that out of the Netherlands. It's a 5 developers team running one of the biggest MMO worlds existent. These guys won 4 out of seven categories in MMORPGs awards, and they don't have the "biggest development team in the business with 70 people.
So to me this means that quality = revenue no matter from whom it comes from.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Comments
Their "studs" are lame ducks. They are nothing like they claim to be. They have no idea how to make a worthwhile game.
Why are they thought so well of? Because they wear suits and talk down to gamers?
_______________________________________________________________________
Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.
Will soon try: Guild Wars
Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.
Because I want good games man. I don't want them pushed out before they are ready. I want good people working on them too. I also want it to be bug free, have more content than I can possibly ever do, be balanced, and not be subject to having to sell out to make more cash money.
No, it doesn't sound like the SOE we have come to know. But it does sound like what this new MMO that is under development is going to change.
If the game is good, I'm there man. That's what gamers do. I have to think though that behind SOE's apparent greed, there are good artists that are sick of marketing, pushing out buggy code, and being beholden to suits.
That is why they are holed up in Seattle, and the only folk they need answer to are Smed, and John Donham, who are people they can trust. They are not prostituting themselves to preorders, investors, the online mags, F13, the cesspit, and any two-bit armchair MMO guru that has some opinion. They are approaching this thing like they should as artists. Like a fine automobile.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I hear you.. By there track record I wouldn't touch any game they make with a 10-foot pole, until at least 3 months after it'd come out. If there's anything they're good at, it's making a bad situation look good.. that seems to be all that they're good at.
Personally, I'm banking on indie developers in general, and the occasional really good larger developer. SOE is the last place that I would look for worthwhile games, though.
_______________________________________________________________________
Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.
Will soon try: Guild Wars
Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.
Indies like Farlan? Like the ones who were doing Mourning?
The problem with the startups is that they need to make money ASAP. They can't afford to take their time to do it right. The problem with SWG is that it was pushed out too soon. I think SOE learned that if they were going to do well in terms of the art of design, they needed to "serve no whines before their time."
Everquest II also was rushed out before it was ready, mainly because of WoW. I think SOE learned that they shouldn't have their competition dictate their game plan.
Don't get me wrong dude. I think it sucks to be a gamer today, especially in SWG. But I'd say that with SOE or anyone else right now. But they are getting better, and I don't think SOE is stupid enough to blow this next one. They are, perhaps for the first time ever in MMOs, doing what we as gamers always wanted. That's to take the time to do it right.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
LA is so anal over their own IP it would make sense for them to just make a new MMORPG on their own. Since Lucas Arts is finished with the films I imagine Skywalker Ranch would be well suited for working on a new star wars MMORPG. Imagine having the designers of the films being world builders for the next SW MMORPG I cant even imagine the possibilities thats going to be the next step for games, having the Hollywood talent get involved... however, I dont think LA would make its own game, I cant think of a single game they have made in house off the top of my head (is there one?).
I just dont see LA making its own game; I mean why wouldnt they just make every SW game in-house?
Is LA entering the digital camera market? Did I miss something? How do you figure Sony and LA are competitors? George runs a monopoly on his IP and he runs his own show I dont see how they are competitors LA is in competition with no one other then itself.
As far as the Seattle project goes, Ive only just begun to hear about this. I think its strange that Ralf K. has been so silent over the NGE, so Im guessing hes working on a new project and SWG is all but distant a memory for him.
Whatevers going on in Seattle, its Smeds new pet project where I bet you anything hes going to use his experimental Velvet Rope payment plan. Im more curious than excited over whatevers going on at the Seattle Skunkworks for the simple reason that its in SOEs hands (its bound to fall apart).
That, and the velvet rope idea sounds terrible so i'm secretly hoping for its failure.
LucasArts is a division of LucasFilm. LucasArts describes itself as an international developer and publisher of computer entertainment. Now this doesn't mean they don't farm out some projects to small development houses like Pandemic, who did Battlefront; or Petroglyph, who is doing this new Empire at War. But make no mistake, LucasArts is the one wearing the pants in the family.
But SOE is not like Pandemic, or Petroglyph. SOE is a division of Sony Pictures, which is the movie making division of Sony. Sony's Imageworks studio is one of Industrial Light and Magic's competitors, and there is a war right now between LucasFilm's sound system, THX, and Sony's sound system, SDDS. Sony is winning against Lucas in the post-production services war. So no, Lucas doesn't churn out flat screens, and digital cameras. But Sony is into all the things that Lucas is into, and is winning.
In short, Sony is the very embodiment of everything that Lucas himself is against. A big studio system, that is making it harder for independent studios and filmmakers like him to survive. It was all well and good when Lucas could play "Big Papa" to a young and independent Verant. But there can only be one "Big Papa," and Verant was bought by Sony, which was tantamount to Anakin turning to the darkside.
Skywalker ranch, I agree, will be perfect for building a new MMO. That's why Lucas will do it. I don't think he can afford not to do it, and I wouldn't be surprised if development was already started years ago.
As far as Smedley and his "velvet rope," that is only one idea he's been tossing around. He has /pizza too (the command in Everquest that allows one to order from Pizza Hut for delivery), has the Station Exchange experiment going on in EQ2, and has virtual billboards going on in MXO.
The reason we hear so much about the pay for ingame perks plan, is it is the most controversial, and he is trying to gauge public reaction to it. But be that as it may, I don't think they are designing this new game around the revenue structure, but rather, designing the game, and will pick at a later time what revenue generators will be appropriate. If the "velvet rope" ain't going to fly, it ain't going in. They'll do something else instead.
But the one thing for certain is that if the game is not there, nothing fancy is going to work. The game has to be high quality, and Smed knows it. That is why he, Donham, and Koster are taking their time. Nothing less than perfection will do. Because think about it Dolanious, what at this point is going to get you back to SOE? Only the most perfect MMO you have ever seen.
That is what they are doing in Seattle.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Saying that because one group of indie developers was a bunch of scumbags, then all indie developers must be scumbags.. is a rather limited way of thinking.
That's like saying that because one small candy maker makes crappy candy, all other small candy makers must make crappy candy. The argument makes no sense.
There are plenty of games out there, which were made by small developers, which are much better than the overbloated hunks of crap that companies that make games just to make money shill out.
Indie developers, for the most part, are actual gamers themselves. Rather than people with degrees in business who have no idea of the concepts of good gameplay, or customer satisfaction.
_______________________________________________________________________
Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.
Will soon try: Guild Wars
Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.
I don't think I am saying that about small developers Thinman. There are interesting things coming from that sector, but we have to be fair.
All of these MMOs, regardless of size, need to worry about revenue. They may not be in it to make "fat cash," but they have overheads, and fixed expenses.
But here is the problem that the Indies have. They are not getting their financing from Corporate. They are getting their financing from banks, and venture capitalists, who also have a lien on the creative work as well.
In other words, they are not going to let the money go, without having a say as to what goes on there if they at any point determine that their investments are at risk. The problem is, these folks don't care about art. They don't care about quality. They only care about their portfolios, and getting a return on their investment.
The problem is that the Indies cannot just develop, design, and code. They have to be on the phone with the banks and VCs all the time, who are saying "where's my money." Not only that, but as time goes on, these sources of startup capital start to exert their influence more and more, and they will play hardball too, saying things like, "our research determines 55% of your forum posts have to do with this class being underbalanced. Take the class out, move on, and get us money." At that point, it will be impossible to ask them for more money, unless you show money.
Enter preorders, and all that other slimy stuff. It gets you revenue, but then now you have to deal with the fanbase, who will become more impatient for a live game. The finance people see this too, and they start to see their $$$ interests dissolve, which causes the Indie to put the thing out before it is ready.
But notice all this, Thinman. All these people at the Indie, who just want to make games, are ending up being PR people and "yes men." These folks at SOE played that game when they were Verant, you can't blame them for wanting to make a change.
The difference between Sony, and an Indie, is that Smedley and Co. don't have to prostitute themselves to the VCs and banks anymore. Yes, Sony wants to see them succeed, but its the difference between, "John, let's talk about what we can do to help each other," and, "dude, where's my damn money?"
I admit that SOE has been doing a lot of things that seem "bourgeois," and money driven with their current titles in the last five years. I see it as finishing up old Verant business, and paving the way for this next MMO. They needed to build a little bit of trust with their new partners, and they needed to generate enough startup capital within their own division to make something like Seattle possible to develop for a long, long time.
Not for the money so much, but for the game, and what these folks out of Origin, Verant, and everywhere never really had. That's a protector that will let the folks design, and not have them worry anymore about revenue, preorders, and finding more VCs.
Its got to make money. Then again, I don't know of an MMO right now that doesn't worry about revenue, and the Indies most of all.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I used to think like you Beatnik, until I started playing EVE. EVE is made by CCP, a "small company" if you can call it that out of the Netherlands. It's a 5 developers team running one of the biggest MMO worlds existent. These guys won 4 out of seven categories in MMORPGs awards, and they don't have the "biggest development team in the business with 70 people.
So to me this means that quality = revenue no matter from whom it comes from.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!