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The "BIG" Problem in MMO's today - and I'm TICKED.
Steelarm011
Member Posts: 187
I have been playing MMO's for about 5-6 years now, my first one being the old old Asheron's Call. Ever since seeing it in the library, I have known this new breed of games for a very long time. But things have changed. Ive played almost all MMO's, ranging from Neocron to the latest, World of Warcraft.
I have been reading a topic in this same forum about how MMO's devs are bending their backs to carebears and its ruining games. Well guess what? The guy who posted that is not that far off. The PVP in games vs PVE is only part of the problem. Its more of the whole game, the mechanics and the gameplay. I'm not going to go through the list of games that are on the market today with all of you becuase I'm sure you've played them all or at least know about them. There are alot of things that devs have dissassembeled from the "oldschool" games that really made them exciting and fun. But then developers started deviating away. and I saw the fun stripped from the games. Let me sum the problems up as they seemed to occur:
The FIRST BIG, HORRIBLE, DEATHLY THING THAT WENT WRONG: CLASSES 
Whoever the hell thought that the class system that was implemented should be shot. Well okay, not to that extreme. Some games are pretty fun with classes. The general idea as everyone knows is the integration of teamwork. That one class, such as the warrior who is good at fighting and taking hits, groups up with the priest who heals him. We all know the deal here. Youre given a set of classes to choose from at the start of the game. Some games let you branch off, some don't. But theres the general idea that once you pick it, thats the class your stuck with. Thats your job. Well guess what? It gets boring. Boring. I get tiredof hacking away, at healing. Now someone would say okay - create a new character. Well like the majority of people who play MMO's, I'm a casual gamer. I dont have 6 hours a day to go and play for 3 hours on one character and then 3 on another. And as we all know, it takes alot of time to advance your character in an MMO.
The class system offers RESTRICTIONS. NO CUSTIMIZATION. I remember back when playing AC there were no classes. I could pick my stats and skills at the start of the game as I chose. It was fun as hell. I had my own character. When you leveled up, if i remember correctly, you could put points into skills or into your stats. And you could put pts into any skill you chose. I didn't feel like I'm the 16th priest on the field in WoW, with the same skills and the SAME spells as my counterparts. Ooo, wow, theres a TALENT TREE. But really, then what? theres a couple good "templates" you could use on the character. Everything else pretty much stinks. You are not unique. Your the same character with the same skills.
A conversation could go like this:
"So, what kind of warrior are you?"
"I'm a prot warrior." "I'm a fury warrior" "I'm an arms warrior"
And dont give me that "hybrid" crap. If you pick a hybrid, they either just plain suck or you choose to specialize in one area and you stay in that area. And then you still suck a little.
And uhh...guess what folks? Thats it. Your not unique, youre the same damn class as everyone else. Thats your job. What about teamwork? Theres always going to be teamwork in an MMO - the devs dont need to spoon feed it to us in the form of classes, we can do it on our own. Im not a baby, I'm a gamer. If anything, classes breed the opposite of teamwork. If you ask to be in a group, you have to meet the qualifications. If you don't, well - hah...sucks to be you.
The SECOND BIG, HORRIBLE THING THAT'S WRONG: MECHANICS AND THE ALMIGHTY GRIND
Now I know all of you are reading this and saying - "well what does this nut mean by mechanics?" I'll tell ya. I can fall alseep sitting at my computer playing DAOC. This is how you go - point, click on your enemy, click on the attack button. woooo. use the arrows keys. Theres absoulutely no skill involved. Point and click, point and click. Kudos to the attack move line. Special attack 1 - Special attack 2. No twitch, no FPS, no dodging attacks manually. What about running? everyone runs and jumps at the same speed and height? What the hell is that? If I want to run faster, whats to stop me? Its not fun. I get bored and its simply NOT fun. I PLAY GAMES TO HAVE FUN. MMO'S ARE NOT REALLY FUN. They feel like WORK. when messaging, I get alot of "Oh I gotta go grind again...yeah I know it sucks...I gotta get that Super axe tho." and crap like that. Your not having fun. How can you have fun repeatdly killing a monster over and over in the same darn spot? I used t sit by the computer screen for hours in WoW trying to get that 2% drop from a monster. Wow, what a waste of my life. And that brings me to my next point. The grind.
We all know that theres a ton of players playing MMO's and some of them are die hard hardcore, and if we let the game become too easy they will advance too far. But games are made to be so hard that for us casual gamers we have to spend all our time online just grinding trying to get to max leve. I'll share with you a secret: I never reached max level in a MMO before. got to 48 in DAOC, 59 in WoW. After all that killing I couldnt take it anymore. Fun along the way - I did try to have fun, but if I did, I eneded up not gaining exp and falling behind withs ome of my other friends. But why are we trying to get to max level in the first place? Becuase alot of us are convinced that in endgame its pretty darn fun. And it probably is. No one wants to spend time under the max level. Lets think for a moment: in the general course of an MMO' your character is fairly weak throughout the entire game. Youre money supply is low, your items arent that great. I remember it used to be fun under max level. Your skills and spells still kicked ass at level 40 than at level 70. You would earn expierience while having fun. While pvping. And yes, that goes to our last and final big mistake.
The THIRD, FINAL, BIG TERRIBLE TERRIBLE AAHHH MISTAKE: PVP ( and we all know third time's a charm 
)
What the heck happened to pvp back in UO and AC? Ohhh man, that stuff was FUN. I remember AC darktide pvp server - pure pvp. Pure ownage, pure fun. You could pvp someone anywhere, any time. There were of course timers on after your rezzed to be protected, but thats reasonable. You could kill someone and freakin loot their items. It was fun, it was thrilling. It offered something different than boring PVE. You could go out on groups with your friends and gang up on another rival clan.
Now pvp is a joke. Carebears have really watered down pvp...and its sad. Even just NORMAL death - its not exciting and scary. When I was in AC, when you died, you dropped some items and your stats went down to be restored - that was scary. Even in DAOC, when you died you lost exp and a stat point - not too bad but still. Now in WoW, when you die, you become a ghost. WOW - im scared. In the so called "pvp" servers in WoW, there are pvp zones. In normal servers theres no pvp at all. THERES A FREAKIN WAR GOING ON!!!! IM NOT GOING TO WAIT FOR YOU TO BLAST ME FIRST - I'M GONNA TRY TO KILL YOU WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Give me a freakin break. Its a joke. I need to be teleported to a bg? Just let me run into their town in m rogue and gank them. And let me loot them. This isnt real pvp, its all fake.
And for all you carebears who watered it down, good job. You took out all the fun. Let me ask you this. what are you going to do when you hit MAX LEVEL, MAX STATS, MAX ITEMS ETC? After you spent 500000 hours behind a computer screen, and theres no competition, now what? You sit on your butt and pick your nose? Probably. Theres NO FUFILLMENT after killing a bunch of AI monsters spawned by a system. Congrats, you win the PVE award. Whoop dee doo.
So what am I suggesting? The devs to take a look at what they have done to MMO's. They arent games - look at SWG. SWG its a joke. Its a - to quote an old friend of mine "a glorified chat server". The devs should take a look at the old UO, AC, Neocron and others where theres skill involved. Its not a test of who can farm better. In AC you had to contest with running speed, jump height, if you could dodge spells - more than just items. You could even modify your attack bar to how fast or how powerful you attack with your weapon. Look at DAOC - another joke. DAOC became a game of elitists to see who had more buffbots before Mythic opened their eyes up to see the monstrosity they created.
I want custom, your own UNIQUE characters back, games that involve skill, I want real, exiciting pvp back and most of all, I want something thats fun. Cause right now, if I log back on to WoW, I have to go to "work". and Games arent work. At least, they shouldnt be.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Comments
Hmm, let me compare what you said to the game I play currently:
Class restrictions ? None
Grind ? Some, but less then average if you're smart about it.
PvP ? Non-consensual, everywhere, whenever you want some.
But, it does take patience, and isn't about swords and knights in shiny armor and stuff. It also more or less requires group membership to get to te really good pvp parts.
Gah, it deleted my post. But I know what you're saying. That's why I can't wait for The Chronicle. Open PvP with full looting (so I hear) and perma-death for those willing to risk it -hell yeah.
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I love posts like this. You're playing MMORPGs and you hate almost everything about RPGs. It's like going into a Chinese restaraunt and ordering a cheeseburger.
Of course, you don't need classes or levels for an RPG. Pen and paper games like GURPS, as well as CRPGs like Morrowind are proof of that. However, a character template is probably a good idea for newbies.
Grind.... I don't really see how you can avoid this one in an RPG. You're going to end up grinding mobs, grinding quests, grinding crafts, or grinding PvP. As long as character advancement is based on doing the same thing over and over, you're going to have some kind of grind. Quests aren't so bad since they can be paced in such a way as to make the advancement seem invisible.
And can we please put an end to the PvPers whining about carebears whining ruining MMOs. I've read so many "carebears" this and "carebears" that posts that I could literally puke. For the love of all things good an decent, will you please give it a rest?
DARKFALL IS OUR ONLY HOPE
I'm not saying everything about our MMO's today are bad. I can give you good points - such as the community. The community has greatly improved over time since the old MMO's. Along with new voice comm, the community is even more tight knit. The number of people who can participate in pvp at one time is quite amazing and exciting at times.
I can name 3 MMO's that kicked a$$ - eventually all of them got pretty old and alot of bugs and modifications occured, so I'm talking about old school.
Asheron's Call - Probably the best MMO ive played, and i know many people will agree with me. Fun as hell. Entirely skill based, this game allows you to fully customize your character to who you want to be. The PVP/death system was one of the best - so it was unforgiving at times, but thats what made the game fun and exciting. I actually got a little freaked when i entered that town zone knowing that I could get into a fight and killed. Mechanics were great, still was an rpg while incorporated some dodging and attack modifers.
UO - Do I really need to explain it?
Neocron - This MMO offered a mix of RPG and FPS which I thought was awsome. Involved more than just point and click, pvp was great as well. EASILY one of the most underappreciated MMO's.
As for the level grind, Im not saying simply remove it. There always has to be a level grind, we all know that. Theres a grind in every rpg that you play. However, what I'm saying is to make the trip "along the way" a bit more interesting. Not through just quests, but through my character. If classes were removed in some games, it would make it a hell of alot more interesting. Classes make it seem more of a grind, because its a pattern that your waiting for - in 2 level i get the next defense move, in 3 i get the next offensive move to replace the last one, etc. Also, making PVP apart of advancement and not just through brownie points makes it a hell of alot more interesting. There is no such thing as "grinding PVP" becuase pvp ALWAYS offers you something different and exciting. Your not blasting away at mobs all the time. I could fall alseep during PVE. Fall alseep during PVP? haha.....no.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
You never played DAoC pvp if you think you lost EXP in PVP deaths. In DAoC pvp death was meaningless as WoW's.
You wanna know why there isn't a game that has item drops, lost exp or perma death for pvp kills? Get this... people don't like it. Sorry if you do but if more people DID like them those tiny games like AC wouldn't be as underpopulated as they are.
People like to have fun when they game and most don't consider losing items, gold, exp or time to be fun. Thats why games like WoW, EQ2 and EvE are popular.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
You never played DAoC pvp if you think you lost EXP in PVP deaths. In DAoC pvp death was meaningless as WoW's.
You wanna know why there isn't a game that has item drops, lost exp or perma death for pvp kills? Get this... people don't like it. Sorry if you do but if more people DID like them those tiny games like AC wouldn't be as underpopulated as they are.
People like to have fun when they game and most don't consider losing items, gold, exp or time to be fun. Thats why games like WoW, EQ2 and EvE are popular.
First of all, I was talking about DAOC's normal death. PVP death in DAOC is just like WoW's.
Tiny games like AC? Youve obviously never played AC. AC stayed strong as one of the most popular games around. People absolutely love it. One of the reasons why people "dont like" harsher PVP is becuase theyve never expierienced it. I agree Permadeath is going a bit too far. But making everything without any penalty is just meaningless. What is the joy in killing your opponent besides being able to click faster or having better items becuase youre able to farm more? Nothing. And wheres the fun in beating your opponent becuase your class is supposed to? Again, nothing. I love it how everyone seems to be branding you either a "carebear" supporter or a "Hardcore PVP" supporter. Well guess what? Im a casual gamer, and I'm not either of those. Theres simply no joy in killing someone for some stupid honor points. In fact, it seems more of a grind that way. All I'm saying is that there should be some type of penalty for death for PVP, and hell even outside PVP. If theres no penatly then what becomes of death? Thats right, its... (drum roll please) MEANINGLESS!
Its not just PVP I'm upset with, its more than just that. I'm talking about classes and mechanics.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I thought EVE did have looting to some degree.
Anyway how many people can actually say they have played a game with perma death? How many people can say they have played a real P(player)vP(player) game(UO,AC). Not some game where your class/equipment/level decides if you win.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
There is no such thing as "grinding PVP" becuase pvp ALWAYS offers you something different and exciting. Your not blasting away at mobs all the time. I could fall alseep during PVE. Fall alseep during PVP? haha.....no.
Everything gets old if you do it too much. There have been times while I'm playing War Rock that I've found a safe place and been able to walk off for as long as three minutes. Rakion was the same way. I'm currently playing GW PvP, and grinding out random battles for faction is getting seriously boring.
I know you're going to say that those aren't MMO and that's not the type of PvP that you're talking about, but I personally believe that everything should be in moderation.
I would personally like to see more depth in gameplay across the board, than just the addition of FFA PvP servers or games.
pve is a hold over from single player rpgs of the past , granted i love chrono trigger as much/more than the next person but when i m plunking down 12-15$ a month to connect to a server with 10s of thousands of other people , the question becomes why am i playing computer opponents for 12-15$ a month ?
hell if i felt so inclined i can pwn it up old school with legends of mana and fight computer opponents for FREE
pve remains in mmorpgs simply as a means to an end and the end of course being pvp
pve i predict will soon become a sidenote in the history of computer gaming soon unfortunately not soon enough
one of these days a game will be released with a completely open skill based system of character advancement , a completely seamless world with NO instancing to speak of , a harsh death penalty (no risk, no reward, no fun) and most radically of all no PVE !
i would hope that such a game would be released by 2008-2009 but apart of me fears that wishful thinking
, the mmorpg industry as of now seems inundated with eq / l2 clones which may actually prove to be the impetus for such a game as i described above to be released
only time shall tell,
oh and btw ill be happy to play a mmorpg with pve , ONLY when REAL AI is available but i suspect thats a ways off i just hope to live to see it come to fruition
Yeah, classes in an RPG... who'd have thought?
Yeah, classes in an RPG... who'd have thought?
Well, to be fair, it comes from Tabletop RPGs but it's one of those D&D 'sacred cows' that hardly gets used outside of D&D any more.
CRPGs and MMOs are still playing catch-up to TRPG systems.
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The OP has a lot of great thoughts on classes and how they are really just ways to make everyone equal and easy to put into a catagory.
I just think that the statement about an MMORPG being a job is what is definitely wrong, not with the games themselves, but the people playing them.
Think about it, before games like EQ and WOW, sitting down and playing a game for more than 6 hours was looked upon as a major no no. I mean there would be hardcore mario 3 sessions, but they were always follwed by going outside and doing something else.
Now MMO's have opened the door to addictive personalities. These same people complaining about grind and how they need to do the next 40 raid for 16 hours are the same ones that stay up way too late drinking Balls/coffee and smoking cigarettes. MMO's really allowed addictive people to really have no need to do anything else.
This is why the end game is such a difficult thing for MMO companies to stay up with. It takes no less than 3 months to come up with a good 10 hours of content in a video game. So as soon as this new content is available you already have thousands of people who have done it 10 times.
So in actuallity I believe the people that complain about the grind are doing what every addict does. Complaining about their addiction. Yes you have beat the evil spider lord of badness 10 times and recieved the one drop you need before anyone else even tried to, but you also have less to do from here on untill another patch or expansion is released.
I think that the addicts rush to the end game, so that they can have a reason to complain and a allaby for why they need to consume all that the game has to offer before anyone else.
I see this trend changing in the near future with games like Ryzom that are going to allow much more player created content.
Your predictions / hopes may yet prove true. I've been on Adellion forums for nearly a couple of years, seeing the game advance. It is in alpha test stages and matches many of the requirements / ideas provided.
The death penalty is plain permadeath, but with a few safeguards (Newbie week involves no PvP, in case of lag death and griefing all characters get 2 "narrow escapes" where they survive and are brought to a hospital, there are no classes, and while it will be easy to pick up a new skill it will be hard to master several
Oh, there is so much more. I believe people will have different movespeeds too, at least when running, and your burden will affect your speed and endurance.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
To the original poster: I really liked darktide as well, it was nice to be able to compete with the level 70's while I was level 40. The quests in asheron's call were amazing as well, never a chore to reach the next level, lax and enjoyable. Excellent post, of course someone posts one just like this each day.
Classes are fun. And I think it might be Gary Gygax you're asking to have assassinated... that sounds like a no-no.
Classes can be useful in some MMO scenerios if they are designed to compliment each other. Especially if the MMO is team based, then classes can be an easy means to structure skills to ensure no major overlap. Yet, I've seen in practice this does not go so well either. So, basically, classes can be a mixed bag as much as classless systems. It's a matter of how detailed the developer's initial design is. If it's all over the mental map, then it will be quite a pain to impliment, and a pain to play. If it's detailed, then it might lead to some brilliant gameplay.
-- Bridget
Now this is just funny. You want to grief other people. In WoW PvP and DAoC PvP servers you can pvp everywhere(but main zones in wow to protect griefing noob players) IF you say protecting them newbs is bad. Then your just a griefer.
I love Alterac Valley and DAoC realm vs realm. Who ever has the best strategy and are organize wins. I love the pvp in them two games and hope mmorpgs keep coming out with more ways to win.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
"And for all you carebears who watered it down, good job"
You've never reached max level in any mmog despite been playing various ones for 5-6 years AND you say they are watered down? Sounds like someone wants to be spoon-fed, by the way definition of carebear is someone who avoids or dislikes PvP, but then with your experience you knew that right?
Ultima Online had no classes. You cold be a cook/tailor/mage/swordsman or whatever the hell you wanted. It was skill based so you could tailor your character to whatever you wanted. Thats what I prefer. I agree, I hate being trapped in a class. At least in SWG you could be a Bounty Hunter / rifleman or pistoleer or swordsman. At least you have a weapon speciality. That was cool but they screwed that up now.
The PVP is so watered down now thats its not even worth playing online. You can only PVE so much, sooner or later your gonna need the challenge of fighting a real person. Isnt that why we play online? To face people from other states or countries in some combat? I guess its ok to group with a guy from switzerland for a dugeon crawl, but thats gonna get boring.
This post is right on the money. Bullseye ! Thats why the only MMORPG i'm playing right now is a player run Ultima Online server (1999) version. I"m actually having fun again.
"The class system makes it easier to balance. If it was any skill you could pick. You would end up with the same system. There would be a best tank / healer / damage dealer (melee and range). If you choose not to pick the best way you will end up gimp or so to say useless. The pvp would then be unbalance. Do you see now? Anyway you go. You would end up with classes. I think you just want more classes. Or if you was in WoW more talent trees and a way to change your class/armor set. In WoW a epxerince mmorpg player could reach max level with some good armor in 5-10days play time. Hell you can just use the rest epxerince and maybe get to 60 in less than 5 days. My first 60 in wow took 21days play time i had 5/8 rare pieces. In DAoC classic server it took me around 5 days to hit my second 50. "
The class system makes it easier to balance? Easier to balance!? Hah...hahahaha! Thats some funny stuff. Everyone knows that DAOC and WoW and the lot ALL had balancing problems with their classes and they still do. I hear about how now DAOC has problems with hibernia's vampiir and bainshee classes. Classes sound great on paper, but they really don't work out in game. There are so many balancing problems that these games had - especially DAOC, its notorious for it. Plus without any classes youd be surprised there would be tons and tons of templates out there you couldnt even count them. I don't want more classes, I don't want any classes at all. I want freedom, I want us to be able to customize our characters to how we see fit, not how the developers do. And if it took you that short of a time, well then good for you - your a great PVE'r. The AI doesnt stand a chance against you.
"First off, DAoC is 4+ years old. They built the system around what computer could handle them days. Now you get better combat mmorpgs like WoW. Ok I aggre a level 40 should be able to kill a 70 if he more skill. but that impossible. The leveling system there so people can have something to achieve. Wait hold it look at all the RPGS a level 1 cant beat a level 20. Even in the single player rpgs. Well all the ones I played. In WoW a level 50 can kill a 60, 40-50... it why they split the bgs that way. "
Games had a better combat system BEFORE DAOC came out. DAOC introduced the point and click method - RvR was great on the mass scale but individual pvp pretty much sucked and it was boring. Games before it that had came out like UO, AC and even Neocron had better mechanics/combat. In AC I could edit my jump height, running speed, attack speed to how I wanted it.
"Now this is just funny. You want to grief other people. In WoW PvP and DAoC PvP servers you can pvp everywhere(but main zones in wow to protect griefing noob players) IF you say protecting them newbs is bad. Then your just a griefer."
Read my post, carefully, kid. Griefing is something totally different altogether, and I never said protecting noobs is bad. All I want is a more loose PVP system like before that allows us to have some fun and freedom. Whats the joy in killing someone if your just to kill them for brownie points? Whats the joy in surviving a duel if the only conseuqence of death is being a GHOST? There is none. And thats what makes the game sad - youre not afraid of dying, so that nakes death meaningless. I'm not a game developer, but there can be some safe zones of the sort for newbies, but for the most part - If theres a war going on, and if I see you, I'm not going to wait for you to blast me first, I'm gonna go at you whether you like it or not. And thats the way it should be. And to our other poster:
"You've never reached max level in any mmog despite been playing various ones for 5-6 years AND you say they are watered down? Sounds like someone wants to be spoon-fed, by the way definition of carebear is someone who avoids or dislikes PvP, but then with your experience you knew that right?"
What are you smoking? Ive been changing games ever since Neocron flopped over is because none of them are fun. Its a real chore to level up. I dont want to be spoon fed, I want for us to play a game and have fun and adventures not "go off to grind."
To GungaDin: Yeah man...UO was the stuff
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I can't take anyone seriously who can't even get to level 60 in WoW, are you THAT crap an 8 year old can do that? BTW Hash means hashing (computer term) not hash as in hashish, numbnuts.
Username: Steelarm011. Age: 17
Now I know I can't take you seriously bwhahahahahaha.
. People like you are the BIG problem in mmogs. go troll elsewhere, kid.