Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Publishers are Dumb. People want originality.
DyotoOrion
Member Posts: 7
Ive got to laugh to hear that a Stargate MMO is in the making. For gods sake have the producers and Devs learnt nothing!
Why is it that everyone apart from the people who actually make these things, seem to know what they are about. IE...We the gamers know what we want...but the Devs dont listen to us.
Why on earth can they not do something NEW. Why is it that getting paid to be a Gamer, (a Dev should be a Gamer with a paycheck) automatically makes you a dumb ass?
I read on Tom Slopers website ... http://www.sloperama.com/advice/idea.htm ... That:
"a game company will not buy ideas from the Gamer because they already have great ideas up the wazoo, or they think they do anyway".
and
"I love making games but I know we just come to publishers with ideas so they can say.. "wonderful concept, but why don't you make this sequel or that movie license instead?" Such is the way of the world."
You want to know why we have a war in Iraq, because somewhere in North America their is a board room of dumb ass rich doods, wearing pointy hats, smokin cigars and going "Ooooh yes, lets make a StarGate mmorpg 
" I know those two things are not causally connected, but they may very well be culturally connected.
The fact is Game companies obviously do not "have great ideas up the wazoo" ie a great qauntity of truly great ideas. Otherwise the mmo market would not be what it is today.
The idea of making a mmo out of a Film Franchise is wrong. full stop and this is why. A film by its nature is a thing with a beggining and an end, it has a genre and a mood and a set of predefined characters.
An mmorpg is the exact opposite of this. It is non-linear, has a beggining but no end. And then that is exactly what is wrong with almost all mmorpgs today....they have a Genre, and a Mood and a set of predefined characters.
Forgive me if im wrong (and there will probs be lots of people who think i am...lol) But a RPG or a MMORPG on some level is supposed to be a simulation of Real Life. Yes its a game, but we play it to do things and have adventures that perhaps we could never have in real life. And the fact is is that real life is an open ended, non linear, non genre, non mood thing, without a set of predefined characters.
IE. the mmo as it is today makes a box out of the limitations of beggining and end, linearity, genre, mood, and a set of predefined characters, a box that traps the player.
That in my estimation why all these mmos get boring or just fail, becuase they are all boxing the player in, into a box of what the pointy hat producers think is "cool". Funk that where is the Gamers decision? Where is his or her creativity in the matter? Well....somewhere i guess.
But comon, who wants to live in a Box, called Stargate, with no hope of escape to a better world, where your dreams might come true?
Regards,
Dyoto.
P.S. A Poll. Do you think that given the Money and programming skill Gamers themselves would make a far better game than any Dev Team has so far? yes or no?
Comments
im confused, how is a SG MMORPG not new? should be nothing like what we have just thinking about the setting.
have you not seen the direction the TV show has taken it? there is no "end" the characters are limitless.
another confusing statement. seems like you just want a sandbox game. what would be the point? there has to be some restrictions. you cant just place people on the moon and say go, the devs give players a setting and tools, what you do with it is your choice.
my beggining is not yours, my path is not yours, and my end is not yours. most MMORPG by nature as as open ended as you can get. with only a setting tools.
i just dont get what this has to do with someone announcing a new MMORPG. especially one that has a backstory most people already know and is far different from most MMORPG's out today. its funny you use the expression "with no hope of escape to a better world" in a post about a stargate game.
the whole post seems like an over dramatized rant from someone who simply has no interest in an SG based MMORPG.
The game devs do listen to the We's and that's why they have no idea what gamers want. We is a mob that wants pvp, no PvP, crafting, no player economy, instanced dungeons, no instancing at all, games with familiar histories from our favorate books/movies/TV shows, games with never before heard of worlds...ect ect ect. Devs have to build a game they like and stick to it untill they have enough real fans to help make it better.
MMOs should start out the devs game and become the players, not the other way around.
I care about group play and having fun.
For me, WoW was a blast until the pain of raidings.
EQ2 was awesome, except for the pain of looking for group.
DAoC was superdb, until it got old.
1. ok....to expound. I think your missing my point.
Not new? Well SWG is a space off world environment. In EVE online travel is defined by stargates. And well its Stargate, which is not new. The TV show is pretty cool, but isnt making a MMO out of it just the same as making a MMO out of the Matrix or out of Star Wars. So thats not new...or original.
Well I think the thing that carried the 1st stargate series was the actors, and some of the scriptwriting, not neccasarily the open-ended or originality of the characters. Hmm....ok some of them where original. But I think I am talking original and open ended on another level, one which you may or may not have grasped.
I kinda disagree I think you can put the players on the moon and just say go, as long as the Moon you put them on is a fascinating place full of adventure and things to do. Im kinda suggesting that a player would not have to example Grind, to gain experience, or Quest in a very standard kinda way ie "Go to this dungeon kill these monsters and solve this puzzle" Perhaps there is a more imaginitive way of advancing in a game.
Um well sorry.....If we both play EQ and choose to play as a Wizard, on the same shard....then well....maybe our beggining would be the same. And um.....if we both get to lvl 60 and cant get any higher and have mostly all the same skills and abilities, then well. Thats a kinda ending.
Anyways my point was more subtle and was really comparing MMOs with moview storylines. My point was exactly that MMOs dont have an end, and yet in a franchise based MMO, you are kinda defined by the setting of the franchise. I am however being quite subtle.
Sorry the SG story is not far different from the other MMOs out today. I dont know quite how you can think it is. It is 1. Sci-Fi. 2. Colony based, ie the "colonization of new worlds
" etc etc. If you mean the story is unique, well yes it is, but original...well not really.
2. Yes sure the game Devs listen to our preferences. once again....apologies that wasnt really the point I was making. I was talking more about Game Concept ideas. Not really about Game Dynamics. I was wondering why Producers dont listen to players when choosing what to publish.
3. Well you liked WoW!
Wow is not really a RPG in any real sense. it is a Game. A RPGame is something more and that is what I feel the Producers/Devs have kinda failed to bring to the market...hmm maybe i am wrong. But I am for some reason dissatisfied. i think MMOs could be a lot better 
Like ?
No matter what they do for XP people will always grind if it's faster/easier to lvl.
I think most people are disastisfied with MMOs because every publisher is going for the mass market. It's the obviouse choice when you're investing money into it. The only problem is when they make it a game for everyone it feels hollow. Game play becomes simple and boring, and people want more from it.
IMO 3rd and 4th gen MMOs are all going to be the big name grab for money, and most of them are going to be only small succeses. After that idea has come and gone maybe we'll see people try and go with smaller more focused MMOS that have a better chance of keeping it's fans playing.
Lol it costs so much money to make AAA games that's why.
Think of it this way, every store/company/business/corporation works exactly the same way.
They all want to make money.
How do you make money? Well first, you do a risk assessment. A risk assessment would tell you that making a star wars mmo, or any other franchise with a big following has a greater chance for success.
A HUGE chance actually... not to mention less cost to develop since most the story is already in place.
MMORPG companies are like grocery stores. They keep rebuying chicken, because they know you'll eat it. Basically, they keep remaking the same game with a different theme/story because they know it'll sell like chicken. They're just a company that wants to make money. They have employees who do not want to lose their job because they attempted something original and it didn't catch on, or it took too long to make because they had to start from scratch.
They sell you what works, and they're all getting in on it because the market hasn't been fully saturated yet. Once chicken no longer sells so well, they'll move on to another product... maybe beef.
I suppose the real beef the OP has is about the fact the Devs of cheyenne mountain decided to go with a pre-made setting instead of creating their own.
Well, i can see how that can be seen as lack of originality, but the setting is liked by many many people as SG-1 is one of the longest sci-fi series ever, so it was a logical choice. this do not stop them to make original choices in the development of the MMorpg. Just look at other film-franchise titles like SWG or Matrix Online. known world but original ideas went in both those titles. (MXO failed, but it did had some original ideas for combat and other stuff, that is undeniable).
have a nice day
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Good input....Ill reply again later. Just what i think could be done to improve the situation...
Regards,
Dyoto
Damn I loved that show, if they're actually making an MMO I'll check it out. I know what you mean though go through almost any online game trials at the moment and they're all basically the same game with new mobs and 1 new trick that they're claiming is the 'latest thing in MMORPGS'. Remember when UO came out ? totally origional mmo, EVE Online - I'm sure that there must be another spacey game out there but still totally origional in my book.
We all just need a new game, something new that we can get our teeth into for a few years. Something that doesn't involve the first year just leveling and bragging about what level you are and then for the second year building a huge house. Something with that old time comunity feel which I don't get anymore.
I have no problem with the use of an existing setting for a game, as long as it is not used as a shortcut. Most likely, an MMORPG in a predefined setting requires as much effort as any other MMORPG. If not more.
My main concern is if the game will be any good.
The sandbox model might not be so bad, if there is room for everyone, sufficient population, good tools / toys (I don't mean quests, I mean character interaction above all, be it PvP or social activity, political...) and a well defined concept of gameplay.
The "select crowd" game aims at quality in certain aspects, giving mass appeal very low priority. This is not the way of large corporations, but of indie developers. While the developer will / should still listen to the community, it will be the dev team, not the funder or the many whiners there might be, that decide what the game needs. The measure of success for this game is not population / popularity, but quality in preferred aspects, and attraction of the targeted crowd.
I am a roleplayer.
Meaning I want more than just a hollow role such as "warrior", or even a warrior with a rich background, written by me, than nobody would ever really be affected by - myself included.
"If I want to take on the role of a warrior hacking goblins..."
What I want to do:
There would be more to each of these roles, dependent on environment (wealth/economics of the area, presence of hostile military forces, poor law enforcement, friendly townspeople, connections within powerful guilds...)
In conclusion: The sandbox is good if I can
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Tbh, i think you're the dumb one and most publishers would agree with me. People do want GOOD originality but only a special few, actually get good reviews for breaking the mold. Going for originality is a make or break move which many publishers dare not go for, mainly because there is a huge chance it will flop and with only a small chance of it being popular. So publishers stick to what they know people love as a means of cashing in. Still, i do agree with you that a stargate mmo game is STUPID and i personally doubt it will see the light of day and if it ever does, it will be a big flop.
What I think we're seeing is the same trend as we've seen with console games, arcade games and movies...
Back when video games were a "new thing" and no one had caught on to them as a lucrative business, designers had to come up with something different and interesting to get players' attention. They had to be creative and capture the players' imagination. This is why you saw so many new ideas and different game types being put out - for better or worse. People were allowed to be creative and explore different avenues because there was no one stopping them. Games were also alot cheaper to develop back then.. granted :-).
After a time, companies suddenly realized, "hey.. this is a budding industry.. we can really make some good money off this". And so video games suddenly became an "Inudstry" (note the capital I). Annnd.. suddenly a bunch of business big-wigs sitting in some corporate office somewhere became the deciding factor of what was "good" or not. Not the designers. And of course, businessmen care only about making money. Taking chances and trying something new is not a very "safe" way to guarantee a great return on something, so they decide to "stick with what's popular". And thus the originality started to seep out of games and we started seeing more and more "me-too" clones.
IMHO, If a small company from Texas named ID Software didn't come along and create Wolfenstein, or later DOOM, I do not believe for a moment that any major developer/publisher would have gone out on a limb to put the R&D into creating that genre. Or even considered it. Why? Because it was something new. It wasn't proven to be successful. No one had made money on such a concept yet. Why risk it? It took a small company with the ability to be creative and try something new to do it. Of course, once the big companies saw how popular it was.. Bingo! Everywhere you looked there was some new knock-off FPS coming out. Why? Because it was another "proven money maker".
That's why there's no, or very little originality in console games anymore. Because the bigwigs are only interested in making money. That's why there's so many games based on movies (and vice versa).. because it's a "built-in" market and, again, is less risky than trying something new and original.
Now we're seeing it with MMORPGs. That's why they're steadily becoming more and more dumbed down, more bland, less imaginative and more geared toward the least common denominator. Because the bigwigs at these companies have recognized yet another potentially profitable area.. and they want to guarantee their success. They're not interested in what the players think if it doesn't match what their "market research" shows them. A bunch of dead presidents have a much louder voice than a bunch of living, paying customers. SOE has proven this already with SWG and is doing so now with EQ2, which is steadily becoming WoW.
Because of WoW's run-away success.. expect to see many blatant clones coming out in the future.
The only silver lining I see is that MMORPGs are much more difficult to maintain than a console game. You don't just release it and forget it. It's an expensive on-going service.. and MMORPG players are among the most fickle, most vocal and least forgiving out there. I've seen more than a couple MMORPGs where the developers screwed up and lost a large chunk of their playerbase - never to recover, and are now chugging along on fumes, or have disappeared completely. Honestly, I think in the case of MMORPGs, the "least common denominator" approach is going to ultimately come back and bite them in the butt.
In the end, though... I think the popularity of MMORPGs is, or will be, the biggest reason for their increasing lack of originality.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When an original game does come out, there will doubtless be legions that demand cookie-cutter aspects from other games. In fact, that goes on here all the time... People want MEO to have limited PVP, just like dozens of other games. People essentially complain about Guild Wars because vast swathes of the world are instanced instead of being static like virtually everything else.
Of course, I think such feedback is utterly misguided. Might as well complain that Return to Castle Wolfenstein isn't Flight Simulator 2004. What it underlines though is that there is demand for cookie-cutter elements.
Now, I think you're coming down way too hard on this franchise thing. The game could well be great. It could well be lousy. But a couple days after its announced seems too early to make that judgment. We don't know anything about the game mechanics, except they're muttering about "squads" and "ranged combat". Sounds ok to me, but the road is long and there isn't any guarantee on what direction they'll head.
Ok its based on Stargate. Thats vaguely appealing to some people that watch the show. I don't think its in any way fair to trash a Stargate MMO just because its based on Stargate. Unless you really don't like Stargate in the first place, in which case its just a matter of preference. I wouldn't want to play a game based on a TV show I didn't like either. Some people are worried that if the game is poor it'll somehow destroy Stargate. Personally, I think that the series would have to head definitively south before that is a legitimate concern.
A totally original off-the-wall storyline MMORPG would be neat, it would be interesting. Publishing a game that isn't based on an original off-the-wall storyline, provided its executed decently, isn't a crime either though. I think you're carrying this too far and against the wrong target. It isn't as if some developers with a vision ran to a publisher and then they were whipped into producing a game based on a franchise. It sounds more like people that own the franchise said "We're popular now, lets make an MMO like those Star Trek/Wars guys." They're trying to make money, sure, thats their job. Then they hired people and now its their job to make the Stargate game.
Also, I'm not sure where a totally original game would even come from. As soon as I make a suggestion, the idea isn't original any longer. Now its attributable to me. Alternatively, we could just have a game from someone or something less well known or less likely. Sadly, a lot of those ideas don't translate well across media (DUNE) or are hard to implement (DUNE again, actually). Just taking an idea from a sci-fi franchise is a step forward in terms of MMO's, virtually all of which trace their origins back through EQ, UO, to console RPGs, and finally to D&D.
If a truly innovative game actually appears, I am not sure what will happen. I suspect that many will reject it in horror and disparage it for defying their preconceived ideals.
Finally, I think the idea of an infinite MMORPG, which is what you seemed to be looking for in your original post, is a pipe dream as well. Even if the game were endless, you'd doubtless get bored of it sooner or later. An infinite sandbox can just be another way to say desert.
Have to agree that there is no really original games on the horizon....
And to all the complainers...
"MONEY TALKS, BS WALKS....."
If the publishers and devs are making money then that kinda proves that they are right..... yes?
People keep signing up for these crappy games and staying because there really isn't anything better to play.
Witty saying to amuse you goes here.
I agree with some of what you said. I don't know of any game that has taken off from a movie that has been a smash hit. Look at the front page of this website. The top games are original ideas and the first one made from a movie is at # 34! What does that tell you... people WANT original.. not something they've seen at a movie. People want away from the "commercial" image when they play a game. They want to submerse themselves into a new world, one full of unexpected adventure, mystery or action.
I kinda disagree. I think the problem your looking at isn't in choice of IP, but in the time it takes to develop software. Game companies need to pump these things out fast to keep up with the technology. We've all seen how great games can be totally overlooked by the public cause the graphics look to "last year". The "Big Wigs" have now taken it to a new level and just release crap in a few months and be done with it. I think what we all miss about the games of old was the time taken to make a game perfect. It just doesn't exist anymore. The government has given the software industy a get out of jail free card by having absolutely no regulation on software companies. Companies are finding it easier to spend less money on development, rush it out the door, working or non-working. It doesn't matter cause they get paid regardless. Make a pile of crap, slap a Star Wars logo on it and you'll make your money back, always. What needs to happen is for gamers to make a stand and just flat out stop buying this crap. The only power we posses is the power of our money, which, coincidentily is the only thing the "Big Wigs" understand.
Marketing is turning the whole world into zombies and they don't even know it. It's like the Art imitates Life imitates Art debate. If marketing is deciding what gets made then how do we know what else is possible?
People are stupid, a person is very smart.
The Millenium Lee
Dyoto your one of the first other Gamers to get released from the publishers mind control!
Thank Garzulnarf someone posted this.
It may take time to create an original game,but in the end it's worth it.(At least as long as a next gen console doesn't come out as soon as they finish it,XD)
"The one who begins with nothing, gains everything slowly."
This is why Kim Hakkyu is the greatest mmo designer in the world and will continue to be, especially since soon he will be known for being the lead designer of the 2 most popular mmorpgs to date.
If you don't know who he is, he was the original dev for Ragnarok Online; and left because corporate fucktards wanted to milk money out of it and do stupid things with it. He is also developing Granado Espada that many Koreans and Japanese are swearing to leaving thier current mmo for it. He is well known for talking to the players. Infact so much that he looks so casual its unprofessional. He also makes fun of many designers for being corporate fucktards and self-absorbed.
i think wow is realy helping the industry.
whatever complaints you have and the tons i have, it has 4 things
perfect camera control
perfect engine
perfectly fun combat, because of free control system
lookand touch everything feel
bam! thats it
now all it needs is the daoc capture territory system
and the swg economy with player houses, crafting vendors companies etc
this is so muchmoney now, easy money, wow is really going to make shit happen
it might take a few years... but wow has liberated mmo's eternally from the gw, eq, eve online, swg
autopilot combat.
they made a game that would stand without the mmo components, now future games can do the same thing, except better integrate the term massively multiplayer with regards to the economy and player ability to change the game world.
everyone says wow didnt innovate... it's the first mmo that is simply fun to play.
without leveling, the mmo part, it's a great game. thats what we need to start seeing, fun games that are also mmos'
if thats not innovation, then i'm fucked up and stoned
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--