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MMORPG.COM News: Debate: Crafting
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
The debates continue. This week Frank MIgnone and Garrett Fuller go toe-to-toe on the issue of crafting. Frank hates crafting and its impact on the economy of games. Garrett disagrees. Read on and then let them know what you think.
| Frank Mignone: I have a rather unpopular confession to make I hate crafting. Primarily, I hate having to rely on other players for 'the best' items in a game where I cannot compete without them. It can drive the economy crazy because greedy gatherers charge whatever they want for their recourses, and crafters pass that extra expense, along with their own need for greed, along to me, the poor sap who need weapons, armor, bullets, guns, etc. Frequently, the crafter is the gatherer, meaning they answer to no one but themselves. Next thing I know, I have to farm for 2 days to make enough gold to buy a piece of armor that will last maybe 2 levels! |
You can read the debate here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I'm not a big crafter, so I vote no. I actually hate crafting. I hate spending time farming for crap, I hate the doing the same monotonous bull day and day out. Crafting is not adventurous, therefore, it should be left to NPCs.
Crafting the only way to construct a player run economy. Given enough power to the crafters and balance a lot of late game contect can be created by player run economy. I would agree however that allowing crafters to craft anything they want without any help from combat oriented players would cause disbalance.
Ultimately if Crafting vs Combat is a very thin line on which game developers have to balance, but if done right it is absolutely awesome. If Devs. take and easy way out and not include it in their game they loose a lot of content and make game far too simplistic.
I dunno what games Frank has played but the one's where crafting is truely an integral part of the game has true interdependence. The best game for crafting imo was SWG pre-cu. There was a limited amount of lot space for a character to use, and with these lots they had to keep shops and harvesters, not to mention factories. Here is where the interdependence reall shined. For a small fee, or for trade, a pure fighting character (such as myself) could set up harvesters for the crafter. Even provide guard duty to the crafter for having to travel into wilder and more dangerous areas to get to that really good spawn of a certain material.
Also, for the best armor and weapons in the game crafters had to rely on hunters to get them those materials. Nightsister shards, armor cores, base parts for mandalorian, vibro motors, krayt dragon scales and more. If a player didnt want to take their time to provide these things to the crafters then that is their own choice and if you have to farm for a day or two to get cash to buy a specific item then what in the world is so wrong with that? You would rather spend 6 pr 7 hours every damn day in the same dumbass dungeon hoping for a drop of armor or a weapon? In this argument Frank sounds little more than a spoiled little child that wants everything handed to him on a fricking silver platter.
Not every crafter is a greedy person, and neither are all gatherers. If you cant find them then either A) you are too lazy to do some legwork or
Are yourself one of those greedy types and feel better by making a fallacious argument to make yourself feel better.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Crafting is great for a MMORPG. I first tried crafting playing Ultima Online in 1998 with a Grandmaster Smith. At first I thought it was boring but found it to be quite rewarding.
Crafting:
(1) Helps build an interactive community : I was able to meet tons of other online players and make lasting friendships. Your chracter felt important and part of an online world where others depended on your expertise and wares.
(2) Gave you something to do when your were bored with PVE or PVP. You could open up an establishment and run some vendors. It was neat to run an establishment on side. Just added an extra perk to playing.
(3) Then economy was more balanced because magical items werent to UBER compared with crafted wares. Prices only became inflated when UBER items were introduced. With a player driven economy, new players could afford those items more easily . It was more NEW player friendly. They werent at a huge disadvantage when they didnt possess that uber item.
(4) PVP was more balanced also, you could compete with player made items even if you didnt have that uber loot. Again, this helped the more casual player or those that couldnt obtain that UBER loot
(5) It was great for just overall gameplay. Different types of clothing and furniture to give your house or character or house that personal touch. You could be different and unique.
(6) Another way to get some income for starting players who couldnt take on higher end MOBS.
Overall the main thing about having a crafter was buidling the community. It just added in another aspect for people to interact. I find it very valuable and something every MMORPG benefits from. I can't really say it produces and negatives except : Having to find wares (which never was a problem), Being charged alot (which never became a problem bc of the amount of crafters and competition)
I think crafting is a great way to spend downtime in an MMO, and it's also good for mixing up things a bit--i.e. when you're sick of combat and want a little change of pace.
I also think it would be quite nice if crafting started to get pushed to the forefront in games as far as viability of the items made. Make the crafted items the best items instead of ones gained from quests/raids/etc., or at least pretty comparable. It makes the crafter's achievments more worthwhile than just pumping out crap for a skillup.
Oh, and another thing I wanted to point out. Frank said:
I don't understand why lemmings like to run off cliffs either, but whatever makes em happy. Now, once that free-falling rodent nails me in the head on the way to his death, now his pleasure is my pain and its no longer just his business!
Lemmings don't actually do that
Crafting has to be integrated in a way which is fun. And this isn't the case in all Online Games I know of.
In my opinion it would be a good way to implement crafting via mini-games, like a sliding tile puzzle representing the picture of the piece of armor you're going to craft. It would involve logic thinking and not end as a stupid clickfest where you have to rely on random numbers.
If you can't implement crafting in a way that it's fun and doesn't compete with your loot system, leave it.
By the way Frank:
-> Lemmings don't suicide!
Arg, sorry double post...
"Life is too short to play nerfed characters."
i must say i hated crafting when i was playing Lineage 2 , were only the dwarfs were able to craft,players were dependent on wether the dwarfs liked you or not.however i am not against it ,it should be a job like every job, some should be armour crafters, others weapon and so on.
I agree on a few aspects. I, am a crafter, and im not afraid to say it
Yes, I agree. NPC Characters should be able to hold armor and weapons at the same level as PCs, BUT I think that PCs should be able to add things to the armor. Say, you buy leather pants from an NPC. Theyre plain, leather, nothing special. A PC should be able to add special things like maybe jewels, studding, whatever. This way, if all you care about is stats the NPCs are your friend, if you actually care what you look like, the PCs are your way to go. Either way, you have a choice.
Second, I dont like games where the role of crafter is clearly defined. As was said, crafting is fun to do in your DOWNTIME. I dont want to be a player 100% dependant on crafting. I want to be able to adventure just like the next person, but I want to be out on a quest and say "oh, theres this rare herb around here, lets pick it up" or "i'm looking for this special kind of tree bark for the handle of my sword, I should keep an eye out for it in this part of the forest".
So, crafting is a vital part of a games economy... but let me be more than just a crafter. As an adventurer, I have to look out for myself as well.
I agree with Frank.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I think crafting should be an important part of a MMORPG. Player-driven economy can create a vastly better game than an economy where everyone is spoon-fed by NPCs. But if it's not done right it creates a lot of problems in the game.
I have experience only in Eve Online, and the economy there works great. Many players play the game as crafters (manufacturers) or gatherers (miners). But although Eve has a great economy, it's not without problems. Some areas of player-driven economy are very hard to fine-tune due to crafters tendency to cartelization and eventual domination of monopolies that accumulate vast amounts of in-game money. After certain level, the amount of money they have becomes so great that even the slightest competition with them is impossible.
I won't be decribing Eve crafting system here, but only 1 example: in Eve, having 200-300 mill ISK (in-game currency) in personall wallet is considered a nice amount, BUT a blueprint for tech II ship can easily be sold at 40-45 bill (yes, BILLION) ISK, and someone can afford to spend that much.
Conclusions are not difficult to make here, it only showes how hard is to build a working crafting system.
I like the idea of having crafters just be crafters... No fighting, and no gathering. I would say your Craft, or you fight, or you gather... You could always have a character for each if you wanted to.
Vanguard craft system should hopefully have all sides covered
crafting thats useful but without market flooding
YES to crafting...I say crafting should be there if there's time/room for it... It's just another form of profession and adds a different type(alternative) of gameplay...
My basic idea would be to have npc agents to sell items that crafters make(agents buys the items and then sells them)... Items would be categorized as "common" or "specialized"... Crafters could still sell on their own, but agents would help minimize the spamming and problems of competition at times... And agents could help add a new type of gameplay by having crafters deal with where to sell as well as reputation...(I have more ideas to this system, but I'm not gonna type that much...)
I think crafting in high leveled games should only be for mature players only. I mean, it's then you can either forge a bond of trust between you and you're supplier or, make a shady deal and, get a bad reputation. An auction house like WoW has is perfect for all this but, making friends with a crafter, can be much more rewarding. It's then a relationship between players is made cause of crafting. I like it and it should stay in games. Now.. party members, fighting and, rare drops.. that's a different story
....
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Personally, I think that crafting an intergal part of the game. It's a system that needs a good balance, but as a crafter, I personally enjoy knowing that I can craft items people want and people will buy. However, I try not to set my prices in the range of the ridiculous as I've seen happen all too many times in the past. I base the price on who is buying it or if I'm just putting the item up for auction. Generally, I sell at comparable prices to others who have the same item available, or sometimes a little less (helps to drive an economy both directions when you create small competitions and rivalries, but not outright undercutting as that hurts everyone). Not all crafters can truly be expected to understand how an econmy works or to hold a degree in economics, but they still fill a vital role.
Not everyone wants to be a fighting class, or a magic class, or a support class. A crafting class with no real ability other than craftingis a bad idea, though. I tend to play loners or support classes and I always make someone who can craft - either for myself or for as many people as I can reaach. I do it for the fun of crafting and knowing that I have played a vital role in the lives of other players, but I don't spend all of my time crafting. I'm there to play the game as well, to quest, to fight, and to enjoy myself. I try hard not to overcharge or undercharge. I try to be fair and balanced in comparison to others. I don't like when someone tries to artifically jack the economy with unfair and unbalanced prices. But that issue cannot be solved unless the game designers themselves put a form of limit on player pricing - and I'll bet you that they never will.
Sometimes, quite frankly, it's up to the players themselves to put checks and balances into place. It does no good to complain about crafting and crafters if you don't make an attempt to put a balance in yourself. If everyone stopped going to the crafters and paying them exhorbitent amounts of money, they would have to lower prices or hunt down other buyers. It's a player driven economy, and like real life, crafters can't make money without buyers. Don't like the prices, don't pay them and get others not to pay them either. That's how you fix a broken economy.
My two copper pieces.
"Perception is nine-tenths of Reality. Be careful what you perceive."
For me, crafting is a mixed bag. I have always done it as something to do for a break from hunting. And there are players who prefer crafting to adventuring. But, I can see where Frank is coming from. Crafting needs to be intergral, but it has to be balanced with adventuring.
I have played games where crafters had too much power over adventurers. Adventurers needed the goods that crafters supplied, but crafters rarely needed adventurers. UO, Horizon's, and FFXI, for example. In most games, good crafter gear is superior to good item drops. Yet, it was rare for me to see a gatherer/crafter need an adventurer's protection to do their jobs.
You could make that arguement for really early UO, where crafters needed an armed caravan to travel from town to town. By UO:R, however, that ceased to be the case. Horizon's, too, would occationally use a guard for a gatherer/crafter. Still, even then, it was more a matter of speeding things up, as the gatherer/crafter would not have to stop every few minutes to kill whatever mob was attacking him. Only when they wandered out of their level range did they ever really need a guard.
To the poster who said to simply make a crafter of your own: That would force a player to play in a style they may other-wise not care to. It would be like requiring every crafter to make an adventurer, or every player to make a pvp character, just so their crafter can gain access to what their crafter needs to compete with other crafters.
My idea is to put the materials needed for the best weapons/armour/items in mob-heavy areas. While not a complete solution, it is a start that would give crafters 3 options.
1: Force a crafter to find adventurer friends (and usually cut a deal on prices of their goods with said adventurers).
2: Force them to make their own adventurers to go and retrieve the goods (which is what you were essentially suggesting adventuers do in reverse).
3: Make crafting more of a 2-way street (If you want me to craft 'x item' for you, then you need to bring me 'x material' and I will only charge you 'x amount' for labor).
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
Let's take a look at a few games that have crafting and how it is handled.
World of Warcraft.
Players can pick from a production profession and/or gathering professions. Whilst your first character may not make items suitable for your level, crafting in WoW is great for twinking guild mates or your alts. There is a small element of interdependence, for example some blacksmith items require an alchemist oil. Now skinning is an interesting profession, you have to kill mobs in order to gather the resource, some rare items need a raid to get a specific component and you even need a raid to get the recipe. Alchemists flasks recipes come to mind and Sulfurous (sp?) fragment. Overall it used to be that only the gathering professions are really profitable as you need to be lucky to get that rare recipe e.g. Invulnerable Mail and most crafted items are pretty useless, but most serious crafters have alts to mail resources to or act as a mule.
Horizons
Okay it's not that popular anymore, but crafting is where this game shines. You need to fight mobs to get to rare resources since they are guarding them (when they spawn heh), this kind of forces the crafter to take up combat, thanks to unlimited multiclassing you can be pretty much independent, but you need a strong guild to really get the most as some recipes are pretty rare. As few play anymore the economy is pretty out of whack, quite a few players are willing to make you free basic stuff as long as you provide materials. You can store huge quantities of resources and craft ad-hoc, no decay system and almost unlimited resources (okay there were linked areas of nodes) meant you can get rich pretty quick and whilst the crafting is great, the economy model isn't there to handle it.
EQ2
On release EQ2 had a pretty unbalanced crafting system, with Alchemists becoming very very rich, thanks to the fact that all other crafters depended on them and they depended on each other. Now recipe books fill the interdependency gap and you aren't reliant on them anymore, much to the horror of all alchemists. EQ2 crafting is pretty solid, loads to craft and the items you make actually are useful, but....it has the weirdest method of making items I've seen, a kind of mini-game with progress and durability. It was so tediously boring for many that using a programmable gamepad or a bot or AutoIt was a far less RSI-inducing alternative. What were SoE thinking when they dreamt that up. Crafted items complement combat rather then become a neccessity, so you can be fine without any and get by, but generally it's not that balanced. You won't get a rare recipe just by having a high faction (unlike WoW), you'd need to kill and kill or pay someone who just looted it who overcharges you because they think all crafters are mega-rich.
I quite like crafting in mmorpgs, I don't do it exclusively and beleive it can really enhance a game. If the economic model isn't there or robust enough, crafting can be quite damaging to an economy. Mass producing items, controlling supply of rare items (camping or being the only the one on the server with a rare recipe) and cartels are real problems (in so much as a mmog can be real). Having a certain level of interdependence is healthy and so is competition, I'm not asking all mmogs to have an EVE-Online esque economic model, but crafting is closely related to the economy and you need to make sure that is resilient first.
Very FEW games have ever even tried to make crafting a rewarding experince. The only one I truely liked was the Beta of EQII before they caved in to the whinners and totally redid the crafting system.
In that system, caster crafters could research the ink, the parchment, the magical ritual skills needed to craft spell scrolls of increasingly higher levels. A magical type had no other way to get advanced spells then to learn them from crafted scrolls. It was an awesome structure and gave full meaning to the value of the crafter in the game. At the same time it was almost insanely complex and that is what led to the whinners.
Only other game I can think of that crafting was fun was Horizon Beta. There crafting flowed smoothly from getting resources to crafting. Alas it had no real purpose as did most of that underdeveloped game.
I think crafting is an essential feature, although it should always be a choice not required. I think people who are against crafting forget that raw materials can be a good source of income for people who don't like to craft. I appreciate the whole gathering and farming aspect of a MMO as much as I like crafting. In FFXI (as an example) I did not craft whatsoever, yet I made a ton farming. In a game like WoW or EQ2 gathering as a little too easy, but there are alot of crafters who aren't willing to take the time so it's easy to do when you've got a little downtime to make some extra cash.
Crafting itself can be fun for some, unlike the previous poster I do like EQ2 crafting although I agree I was a little peeved at loosing the dependancy thing. I wasn't a alchemist, but I was able to make money making essential items other crafters needed, just as they did for me...and so on. Having said that I'm a happy provisioner nowadays.
The flipside of this is that exploiting and botting. Unfortunately I guess it is human nature for people to cut corners and buy thier way into games. I have yet to figure out why someone would want to cheat themselves out of gameplay, but I guess that's another debate. I guess my point is I don't blame the system because there has to be people willing to buy stuff out of the game.
Any MMO wherein crafters and merchants can name their own price has a run away economy and a serious problem...
I'll say more when I'm more awake.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
The market is driven to what people are willing to pay. I put up things on the market and if they don't sell, I lower the price. The problem arises when people have more money than they know what to do with and the 'value' becomes trivial. If people can play within the game, it usually isn't a problem.
Your runaway economy also occurs with games that have no crafting. Guild Wars, has no crafting and people are willing to pay outrageous prices in the gameworld for dropped items. People bitch and moan about it, yet keep on playing.
I'm totally in agreement with you Bhob. People like Frank don't understand supply and demand. If people weren't able to cheat by buying in-game money with real world cash, then demand would wane, as not many would be able to afford the items that are insanely priced.
Frank Mignone: "As I see it, when you make those crafters 'special' by giving them exclusive rights to create Items that the rest of us need, thats a problem. Some people have a life, and can't spend it in a game, farming for in-game money to afford the over-inflated prices that crafters can demand. If we're talking about items that both the crafter and a NPC merchant can sell, the crafter now has competition; A competitor who is driven by the need for economic balance, not greed. All to often, we do not see this, and crafters become the only means to gain powerful weapons, armor, and ammunition that become mandatory if you wish to be able to compete in the game."
You are talking about three different things that create this situation:
The Secondary Market for cheaters.
The game developers' decision to include the ability to pharm for items and/or in-game money in a way that promotes unsportsmanlike gameplay.
The game developers' decision to place utmost importance on what your character is wearing, rather than on what skills your character has.
Fix these things and you'll have a game that is about the journey and not the phat lewt. Itemization is totally overrated and validates avarice. It's supposed to promote capitalism (thus, strong economies), but it ends up too close to real life to be fun.
Barring such a system that isn't about phat lewt, I'd rather have crafting be able to make raid-quality drops as a factor of chance, just like the loot table of a raid. Only once or twice in a lifetime could a crafter make a masterpiece. Perhaps one masterpiece per crafting tier level. <shrug> I'm still waiting for a game to get it right.