Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
How do you make crafting/gathering fun?
Ionyssa
Member Posts: 3
Overview
A summation for those that don't like long posts. 
If a new MMORPG is to incorporate crafting/gathering, what should they be doing to make sure it is fun, rather than tedious?
Background
MMORPGs have been around for a long time now, and most have included crafting/gathering to one extent or another. While many MMOs have innovated successfully and produced some very good crafting/gathering systems, SWG pre CU, Eve Online, Horizons, to name but a few, many also revert to outdated and 'lite' crafting/gathering systems and make this activity tedious, annoying and ultimately pointless.
When a new MMORPG is being developed and is to incorporate crafting/gathering, what lessons should they have learnt from all the previous MMOs so as to make this activity fun rather than tedious?
Some things to think about...
There are many aspects to crafting and gathering that a lot of people like for different reasons, some of these include:
Social aspect, something to do while not adventuring, can catch up with friends while doing something constructive.
Remuneration, in a lot of games being a good crafter or gatherer can make the player quite wealthy (in game currency of course).
Integral, in some games you can become a very important member of the community through crafting.
Customization, if you don't want to look like the next guy crafting offers a good way of differentiating yourself by making cool or outrageous outfits.
There are also many aspects that people find irritating and tedious:
Click-click ad infinitum, having to click huge numbers of times to perform an activity.
Mindless tasks, having to repeat the same boring tasks
Hawking, having to verbally advertise all of your products.
Losing money, customers not willing to pay even what the ingredients cost you.
Diversity, in some games every crafter of a given type is identical.
Summary
So what elements should a fun crafting/gathering system have?
Can a crafter not have anything to do with gathering, or are the two processes invariably part of the same profession?
Does crafting/gathering have to be a manual process, how much automation is too much automation?
Thank you for reading!
Kind regards,
Ionyssa deWinter
Comments
Now this is an interesting post.
I think the key is in balance & fun. More than anything else you have to get the raw mats from doing something that is intrinsicly entertaining. Grinding for mats should not be what the system is about, so it's best if you have to proform a multi step process to get them, and/or they randomly drop while you're playing the game normally. I think it's best to have both, as then you never HAVE to farm mats ( a certain amount will always be floating about the system), but if there is a shortage you can profitably go out of your way to inject more into the economy to the benifit of all.
You have to be able to craft the best stuff for other ppl, or everyone has to be a crafter. In many games the best gear only drops from the ubberest NPC bad guy. As has been mentioned many times before, this is a problem in wow, because you can't PvP to the highest level unless you've farmed out MC etc. I for one don't enjoy massive raids & refuse to do them (it's like herding cats), so I cannot PvP either. Better that the best gear is player crafted, but with mats that are corispondingly hard to get. This does mean that you can go on Ebay & buy the ultimate staff of doom, but ultimately you could just buy an account that has a fully loaded character, so there's only so much you can do to stop RL economies intruding.
Then of course you have to decide how to generate recipies. TBH, I don't have any stong thoughts on this. The old tradable drop system seems OK, but I've never made much use of a research system.
As with everything in a good game, this is all a matter of finely crafted balance. Balancing the power of the items, the difficulty of making them, and their distribution to other players. It's difficult to be specific other than to say that tedium = bad.
Nick
The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's the way to bet.
You're talking about turning a normally mundane activity into something that's fun, which is not easy to do. Imagine trying to turn bathroom cleaning into a sport, or washing laundry as something exciting. That's about what it takes to make crafting into something enjoyable for all.
Its not that it isn't easy to do, its that the various companies don't seem to be trying real hard either.
Take the minigames in any RPG, Final Fantasy 7, Chocobo racing, breeding, and the card game(s). So to make it interesting you would have to probably add a minigame to it. Make it an interactive experience while you are mining/harvesting something.
Combat is a form of minigame, essentially you could probably take a players best abilities, and their stats points and just say, ok x beats y because of z is higher. But instead combat in any real MMORPG is an interactive experience you can't just sit back and do nothing.
Take mining in eve, its quite boring in safe space, and little bit more exciting in unsecure space since you have to watch local and watch for pirates inbound, but what if the mining was more exciting by lets say playing a minigame, you could win up x% more of what you are mining. Now this minigame would have to fun and difficult, think of tetris, its fun yet difficult at the higher levels, its also simple. You don't want something overly complex. Take go or chess, both are incredibly simple games at the base, yet incredibly complex and difficult to master.
Thats the key difference I think, game designers need to look into making these mundane tasks into something that is a little bit more interactive.
Now freebird has really hit on something here. His combat analogy is excellent. We wouldn't put up with a combat system that wasn't dynamic and demanding of some level of skill, so if we really want to get some entertainment & satisfaction out of crafting, shouldn't it be given a similar amount of gameplay?
And adding new levels of gameplay is how to rise your MMO above the herd.
You would gain specialisation that is more than increasing a skill number, and is actually suited to your playstyle. You could seperate really hard recipes from just very rare drops. It could become a personal challange for the really skilled.
/clap freebird
Nick
The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's the way to bet.
I like the idea of making harvesting/mining/lumberjacking etc etc into a mini game. Making the better you do at the game the better the results.
The same can go for the actual item creation, ie: the better you do at the minigame, the better the result.
Lets make the item only able to change hands a certain amount of time to avoid people making money off your hard work.
How about the artisan that crafts the item having a say on it's appearance or the name of the item? In regards to color or simple look changes to keep it simple.
Perhaps a permanent signature on the item as well?
Crafting shouldn't nearly be as tedius as it is and does deserve a little attention.
I don't think mini games are the way to go, especially when it takes away immersion...Unless it gets some how related to mining?
Why is mining boring...
- In real life, mining or cutting down trees is just doing the same thing over and over at the practically the same LOCATION... In other words, it's too monotonous...
Suggestions...
- Take all those monotonous stuff out... Have the npcs do them and sell them... It's not like in real life people did all of those by themselves just to craft something...
- You could instead add in some form of "search" factor in it... My example would be to have the "common" stuff just sold by npcs... And then have the "rare" items that are possible to be found... For instance, gold or medicine plants, could be found in very small numbers only, which would require the player to move about alot to search for them... ( As a result, crafted items shouldn't require too much of these raw materials...)...Crafters/harvester/etc. may need a group sometimes too, just to be able to survive in dangerous areas...
- As for crafting items themselves... It should be possible for the crafter to customize the items look... For the actual crafting, I think Vanguard's idea is a good one, where parts like hilts,blades are crafted first with a possible chance of failure and then they're put together into one piece with 0% chance of failure...
- Additional stuff could be part of crafting, like having crafting guilds crafters could join, which may give certain bonus attributes to what they craft or something...
- And I think some form of "reputation" could be part of crafting... maybe players who buys a crafted item from the crafters can make a vote that affects the reputation of the crafter...
I dont like failures when crafting, they are annoying and feel unnatural, they are ruining fun.
That is what skills are for. If I am skilled in a profession, I can do something useful in it anytime, there are no failures, every item I will craft using that skill is a usefull one - more or less. So the only basic thing what makes the difference is the quality of that item; each crafted item is unique simply because you are no machine ... but you are also not that clumpsy to ruin an item in a way it cannot be used.
Think of programming skills for example ... if you are a good coder you can hardly write a totally useless program if you intend to write a good one ... it is simply impossible, because you are too skilled in your profession. You might produce bugs during development and debug them, and if you dont produce bugs, you check your program another time just to see why there are no bugs. If you are a professional in programming you will produce a useful program anytime ... if it is a commercial success is another thing ... even a well made program could fail economic success.
Hope, this example makes my statement more clearly.
Ragosch
Yeah I hate failures too. One of the downsides that hated about SWG for the longest time. I could understand craping out a mininum item, but no item or completely unusable, unsellable trash is just uncalled for.
I also agree with freebird here in that crafting can take on the same form of "mini game" as a round of combat takes. Just as in combat there are actions, reactions, different things that may go wrong, etc, there should be the same in crafting for it to truly be an exciting part of the game. This means you'll have to pay attention and ultimately there are different outcomes depending on how well you do in the crafting session.
If crafting is then considered a much larger part of the game then it should also have the ability or advantages of interaction. A player should be interacting with other crafters for some parts of more complicated items for example. By relying in some part on other crafters, community will form. A crafting system could require you to make each part of an item in separate "rounds", so each part could have different quality and attributes depending on how well you did on each one. Then when you combine them to form the item, you will get an overall quality and attributes. Now you could then have parts from different types of crafter for an item, for example, you would need a blacksmith for the metal bands on a barrel and a woodworker for the siding, then depending on both their skill, you would get an overall quality for that barrel etc. Stuff like that can make a crafting system a lot more in depth and interactive.
Ultimately if you want crafters to mean something in a world then the items they make need to mean something to the rest of the players also.
I think the best upcoming game that will really up the crafting system in an MMO that also has adventuring(ie is not a niche grafting game) will be Vanguard:SOH. check out this crafting FAQ for some truly great ideas on crafting and implementing it in a game: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=146
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
I you mean your work relies on middle-ware (parts which are crafted by another person but are not the end product) and you as a crafter are more a type of manufacturer who assembles those items into something bigger, that sounds good, but ...
... there is maybe a problem with availability of middle-ware. What if those people, who rely your work on are not on while you are on because they live in a different time zone?- There has to be a kind of working economy which supplies you with those middle-ware even when they are not on, otherwise this manufacturing will not happen with middle-ware bought from others. It will just end up in the common way where every crafter crafts every item he needs all by himself.
Without any kind of a working economy this idea will not happen.
Ragosch
If nobody is online to go do a dungeon or quest that requires a group what do you do then?
Also getting into a guild or corp that is able to build the parts, or as SWG used to do it, you could leave a close friend the materials to build a "blueprint" called a schematic, then you could take that schematic to your factory input it and the materials and you could do a production run of those goods. These blueprints were limited runs, and they did not allow you to use materials different from the ones that were originally used. If you used the Dagobah soft wood "yah" in the schematic and a new Dagobah soft wood called "Weh" spawned, then you would only be able to use the "yah" wood that you have
I like the roleplaying aspect - like in good old UO, where you could create a character devoted to a craft, rather than a warrior who smiths, when he's bored. Its an important starting point that many current MMOs lack, imho.
I also liked when crafting was quiet enough that I could chat while doing it. I wouldn't want it to be just as active as combat, so I'd lost that aspect, but I think crafting can have different stages, some more active than others.
As for being a mini-game, just as entertaining as combat, I think it'd be a good start to look at what makes combat different. Aside from the core difference of being combat, and this more viscerally entertaining for most.
I'd say crafting would need more unpredictability, including user responses based on that unpredictability. Imagine if you're pounding out a strip of steel for a sword, and and land a blow wrong, which rather than causing instant failure, offers the possible chance of recovery, if you use the right follow-up strike. If successes and failures came in strings, using patterns and chains that the player could manipulate, much like a decent combat system. Rather than one good masterpiece roll, you might need a chain of good luck rolls, that you'd have to keep adjusting to, using different crafting "moves," in the end producing that masterpiece?
I think unpredictability is key to making a lot about MMOs more entertaining, and when it comes to crafting, maybe the results could be partly unpredictable, too - but not just in a boring linear way, but in a variety of different ways. Such as one sword might come out well balanced (+hit rolls) while another might be exceptionally sharp (+damage), another might be heavier (+armor penetration) or lighter (+attack speed) or just flawless in appearance (+npc sell value) with some element of coersion by the player's actions and skill, combined with random unpredictable RNG rolls.
In essence, crafting is too often done as an afterthought, as simple as old fashioned click&wait combat. I think most importantly, there just needs to be a lot more to it, same as any other element of gameplay.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Yep I agree with Vhaln. While the Vanguard FAQ posted above does show that they're really putting some effort into making this fun, I also feel that their turn based system is really open to becoming tutorialed.
How long will it take before every occurance & outcome has been plotted in an easy to access online database? "Your complete step by step guide to making superior items!"
Where does the skill come in if you just have to follow the step by step guide?
There's gotta be that element of randomness & quick reaction for it to work, unless there are so many combining random elements that it's impossible to plot them all out (like in a game of chess or go which while turn based & simplistic, is so accumulatedly complex that you cannot plot out every effect & reaction).
Nick
PS, it's so nice to see a thread where no one is bitching about a game.
The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's the way to bet.
Crafting rules that dont mirror real life make funny things happen, and its strange and unintuitive.
SWG was the closest to reality, all other games dont even come close:
-Items broke down and wore out.
-Players create everything, monster rabbits dont drop armor and weapons.
Problems that SWG never addressed:
-You cannot destroy enemy thumpers, invulnerable buildings created massive supply side problems.
well that is a valid concern and has actually been expressed pretty well by the community and they have responded... Basically it will be what you said latter down(second highlight). They are trying to make the system a lot more like combat in that you will need to react differently to different things going "wrong" or different things happening. From these reactions on, the whole strategy you'll need to craft something may change, and if you don't handle the problems effectively then they may affect your end product stats. They have stated that at any one time up to 3 things can be going wrong. this also means that sometimes you'll not be able to get to all the problems, and that you'll have to prioritize and know which will cause less damage to the end product.
Crafting in Vanguard will not be like in other games where you have a recipe that requires 3 thread, 2 leather strips and so on; It will be like how in combat you have your different spells, your skills, and different potions etc.
here is a good piece of the faq to back that up:
"-8.45. How much variation would there be in multiple runs of the same recipe?
As I have stated a few times recipes are a set of actions that have to be performed in a certain order. These actions are parent actions that contain groups of actions available to the crafter and recipe within them.
Because of the nature of how crafting works when it comes to things like expendable you could do the same recipe and on one you had to use 15 of an expendable where on the other you only use 19 because you just did not get good rolls when trying to execute your actions.
Items can be changed by adding extra items, while crafting sword blade A you decide to throw in some red gem dust because the recipe gives you a chance to. Because you were successful at applying this you will get sword blade B.
one more just to prove the overall point:
"-8.2 So is crafting meaningful? What about at varying levels of dedication?
Good crafters will stand out. Knowing the intricates of the crafting process is like knowing how to play an adventuring class.
Being good at the crafting process ensures nice items, rewards and cash from work orders, and more. Crafting has a learning curve. This system is about strategy and planning, rapid clicking will result in failure and/or cruddy items. When you take an NPC job, they expect quality too (some more than others).
Crafters that are willing to put some effort into finding special work orders, crafting quests, etc, will also reap good rewards out of it.-3 December 2005"
to further back even that up there is this:
"-8.27.2 What exactly is lost during a failure? Do rare dropped items get destroyed?
It is possible that you can lose the resource you harvested. But the dull blade you got from the dragon would not be lost if the crafter was not successful in polishing it.
Since crafting is turn-based, there is no twitch factor in crafting. Crafting is strategic. You can think about your steps. Basically every crafting action takes into account your characters skills. Skills and items are important in crafting as they are adventuring.
When Assembling items, there is no failure chance at this juncture. The failure occurs in the crafting process. There is a chance to mess up and suffer, but it's not at this stage.
When going through the crafting process in work orders, you do use the abstracted resources they gave you and the items you bought that you need to work the metal. No real harvested resources are lost in normal work orders. For normal recipes you can lose your harvested resources if you fail at the process.
If you just try to go through the process in a recipe and try to complete it and not worry about quality, you will generally succeed as long as you are trying, but get very low grade rewards. This is the safest approach, but is about as rewarding as an adventurer killing stuff below their level. For regular recipes, this means cruddy items, or possibly no usable items in certain circumstances. For work orders, this means little or no material reward, and very little experience (possibly none at all). - 16 November 2005"
So i guess you could go online and find a specific "strategy" to crafting an item, much like you would find a strategy for fighting a specific mob.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************