Ok i cant comment on EVE because ive never played, just read a lot about it (thanks to all the fanbois on this site )
But yes, both UO and SWG were arguably loot based games. Sure there were other crafting and skill based elements in these games but ultimately if you look at it those hinged on loot/items also.
I don't know how to prove this better other than to look at trading sites or e-bay, and you'll find items or gold for sale for both of these games. That means there are people willing to pay real $ for in game items. That spells item or loot based to me does it not?(and yes this is very true for all of these games) Just because i say loot based, i don't mean the game cant have a lot of other features/things to do (just look at Vanguard lol) but overall that is a common drive.
Ok i cant comment on EVE because ive never played, just read a lot about it (thanks to all the fanbois on this site ) But yes, both UO and SWG were arguably loot based games. Sure there were other crafting and skill based elements in these games but ultimately if you look at it those hinged on loot/items also. I don't know how to prove this better other than to look at trading sites or e-bay, and you'll find items or gold for sale for both of these games. That means there are people willing to pay real $ for in game items. That spells item or loot based to me does it not?(and yes this is very true for all of these games) Just because i say loot based, i don't mean the game cant have a lot of other features/things to do (just look at Vanguard lol) but overall that is a common drive. ~Dunadurium
"Loot based", not "item/loot based". In the games I listed, player crafted items were used more often or just as much as looted items.
Things I would classify as improvements to existing EQ style gameplay and not new methods of gameplay. While nice touches and things I definitely appreciate, they don't change the fundamental gameplay.
Originally posted by dunadurium 8) completely seamless world with no zones, and a game philosophy that "if you can see it you can get there". So if you see some huge mountain range in the distance, you could probably get there and climb it, and look down over the world. 9) Really far clip plane, meaning you can see for virtual miles! So if you do get up onto that mtn. then you can look out from the roof of the world and admire the view for miles and miles. 11) HUGE cities and dungeons. I think i mentioned somewhere in this thread already that cities will be the "dungeons" of diplomats. Indeed the cities in this game will be very large, 13) character customization will rival all other to date!
New stuff that you mentioned:
Originally posted by dunadurium 10) Diplomacy is a completely new sphere (they will have three spheres: adventuring, crafting, and diplomacy, each having equal amounts of content so you can base a character in either sphere with no need to touch the others if you don't want.) And basically because it will actually take time to travel, and it will be both dangerous and exciting, real localized markets will be emerging, so being a trader, taking common things from one area to sell somewhere where it is rare will be a way to play and make money. For this they are also adding regional currency with conversion rates etc. so each area will really feel diverse. Features just keep coming to me so i could just go on and on but really, the ones i just listed are probably ones everyone can appreciate.
I'm not that excited about diplomacy. Maybe it'll be cool, but right now I have my doubts. There doesn't seem to be much information about it so it's hard to tell.
It will be cool if keeping the travel times makes areas distinct. I'm afraid that it'll just make it take a long time to get anywhere. It'll likely also make it harder to do things with friends as it will take a while to just all gather at the same place.
Originally posted by dunaduriumAs for the cons: "1) it's a loot based game. I hate loot based. How can I feel like an epic character with 0 hit chance in +100% hit armor? Loot based often ends up meaning spending long times gaining money. Making items rare almost guarantees that they will be frustrating to get requiring large time investments (and seldom requiring skill)" I dont know what you mean by +100% hit armor, but they are balancing the system carefully so you should never really be that underpowered as to not be able to hit a mob of your level range. acquiring rare items will require skill as both their combat and quest systems are designed with the challenge in mind. And yes the best items in game wil require some time, but it does not mean it will be tedious time. You will not be sitting camping a quest mob for hours for example. What they have done is design a "flags" system that can recognize what elements are on each character including quests for example, so if for example you are required to get something off of a skeletal lord deep within a dungeon and collect his bone dust in a vile, then that vile may be fagged as being for your quest so when you fight through the dungeon, you may encounter his guards and then when you kill them, the flag may set his spawn off so only you will be able to kill him. Some types of quests mobs will also be locked so that only you or your group will be fighting them (this will indeed only be used sparingly though). So getting rare items, while challenging, doesn't have to be frustrating. "3) many of the game mechanics sound tedious (not enough info to evaluate yet)" Which ones? "4) it is basically an evolution of an EQ style of game. I'm worried they will follow existing MMORPGs too closely and keep too much of the stuff that doesn't work." They are keeping only the best core parts and are reworking a lot of them anyway.
1) I should have explained better and was exaggerating a bit. In many loot heavy games, you end up with situations like below. This is a rough example vaguely similar to Final Fantasy XI at around level 61 which is what I had been playing up until December.
character's natural attack/accuracy: 230 (and going up at 5 per level) helmet: +7 to attack body armor: +10 to attack leggings: +3 to attack gloves: +3 to accuracy neck: +5 to attack left ring: +5 to accuracy right ring: +5 to accuracy earrings: +5 to attack belt: +10 to accuracy cape: +15 attack food: +15% accuracy
total bonuses: +45 attack/+23+15% accuracy final attack/accuracy with gear: 275/290 equivalent level without gear: 70/73
So the character plays effectively 9 levels higher due to gear. You can't take the character out with just a weapon and expect to even hit any mobs someone might xp off of much less cause any damage. The gear becomes mandatory. Levels become more about unlocking gear than about your character improving (even with the soft scaling VG will have).
That's what I meant. I think I saw a thing from one of the devs (maybe in the FAQ) that they are planning on taking loot based to the next level. Considering I don't really like the mechanic in the first place, this scares me.
3) Well, travel times could easily become tedious (even with the mounts) depending on how it is implemented. Being forced to run dungeons to kill the bosses at the end to get the phat loot to allow you to hit anything could become tedious. The whole leveling up process could become tedious. It really depends on how long their combat system and areas can hold my interest. In many ways, though, I feel like I already played that game.
4) They are reworking a lot of the core parts, but it still has the same general overall feel. Go progressively farther from your starting town hacking things to bits as you go to get xp and loot and level up. While I've had a lot of fun doing pretty much just that for the last year+, it does get kind of shallow and is repetitive. Again, I kind of feel like I've played that game already.
Oh, I forgot another con:
5) Corpse runs. I don't want to run back to my corpse if I die. It's basically forcing an adventure on me. Maybe I died because I was sneaking too deep into a tough dungeon and don't feel like repeating the process again. If the death penalty isn't strong enough without the corpse run, take away more xp. I think death should hurt, but don't make it irritating and tedious.
I have to say I am in the same situation as the op... wondering where to go to next or whether I should just give up on this heart-breaking genre of broken promises once and for all... but I still want to game dammit! So I am stuck wondering what to wait for next. Vanguard... honestly just looks like EQ2 but done right... aka a rehash of the same type of game. Darkfall looks good... but then again so did DnL until it turned out to be POS vaporware. DDO was promising until it turned out to be an all instanced gimp fest.
So really the only thing I feel I can look forward to at the moment is Darkfall and looking at their website it looks about as vaporware as anything can possibly look.
Is there anything else coming SOON?
I also agree wholeheartedly with comments about: -non-loot based system: SWG style player crafted goodness >>> WoW/EQ style lame uber dungeon farming grinds -skill based system: there is nothing more terrible than having to kiss goodbye to the character you have known and loved and have been known for just because you have done all that that class can do and the character cant grow or develop. When I first played SWG I was kinda annoyed by the one character only thing... but it actually rocked. GET RID OF ALL THE DAMN ALTS, that way we can just enjoy developing the one avatar over time.
@dunadurium: I wasn't laughing at YOU, I was laughing at some of the things that nogardnaz said...Friends? (lol please don't bug me about my nick, I was having a very bad day that day; I couldn't get a cool nick so I said "screw it! poopypants is good enough!" I've regreted it ever since.)
@Entropion: I totally agree with you on the avatar thing...I would be perfectly happy just playing one character and mastering that character over a very long period. Project Entropia has an awesome skill-based system and, not coincidentally, they only allow you one character per account.
I can totally empathize with those of you who can't find a MMOG to play...I only like Sci-Fi/modern MMOGs, so I'm doubly screwed. It seems like we're going through some kinda bizzare MMOG middle ages. Doom and gloom and nothing to look forward to.
Comments
UO, EVE, SWG
Ok i cant comment on EVE because ive never played, just read a lot about it (thanks to all the fanbois on this site
)
But yes, both UO and SWG were arguably loot based games. Sure there were other crafting and skill based elements in these games but ultimately if you look at it those hinged on loot/items also.
I don't know how to prove this better other than to look at trading sites or e-bay, and you'll find items or gold for sale for both of these games. That means there are people willing to pay real $ for in game items. That spells item or loot based to me does it not?(and yes this is very true for all of these games) Just because i say loot based, i don't mean the game cant have a lot of other features/things to do (just look at Vanguard lol
) but overall that is a common drive.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
"Loot based", not "item/loot based".
In the games I listed, player crafted items were used more often or just as much as looted items.
Things I would classify as improvements to existing EQ style gameplay and not new methods of gameplay. While nice touches and things I definitely appreciate, they don't change the fundamental gameplay.
New stuff that you mentioned:
I'm not that excited about diplomacy. Maybe it'll be cool, but right now I have my doubts. There doesn't seem to be much information about it so it's hard to tell.
It will be cool if keeping the travel times makes areas distinct. I'm afraid that it'll just make it take a long time to get anywhere. It'll likely also make it harder to do things with friends as it will take a while to just all gather at the same place.
1) I should have explained better and was exaggerating a bit. In many loot heavy games, you end up with situations like below. This is a rough example vaguely similar to Final Fantasy XI at around level 61 which is what I had been playing up until December.
character's natural attack/accuracy: 230 (and going up at 5 per level)
helmet: +7 to attack
body armor: +10 to attack
leggings: +3 to attack
gloves: +3 to accuracy
neck: +5 to attack
left ring: +5 to accuracy
right ring: +5 to accuracy
earrings: +5 to attack
belt: +10 to accuracy
cape: +15 attack
food: +15% accuracy
total bonuses: +45 attack/+23+15% accuracy
final attack/accuracy with gear: 275/290
equivalent level without gear: 70/73
So the character plays effectively 9 levels higher due to gear. You can't take the character out with just a weapon and expect to even hit any mobs someone might xp off of much less cause any damage. The gear becomes mandatory. Levels become more about unlocking gear than about your character improving (even with the soft scaling VG will have).
That's what I meant. I think I saw a thing from one of the devs (maybe in the FAQ) that they are planning on taking loot based to the next level. Considering I don't really like the mechanic in the first place, this scares me.
3) Well, travel times could easily become tedious (even with the mounts) depending on how it is implemented. Being forced to run dungeons to kill the bosses at the end to get the phat loot to allow you to hit anything could become tedious. The whole leveling up process could become tedious. It really depends on how long their combat system and areas can hold my interest. In many ways, though, I feel like I already played that game.
4) They are reworking a lot of the core parts, but it still has the same general overall feel. Go progressively farther from your starting town hacking things to bits as you go to get xp and loot and level up. While I've had a lot of fun doing pretty much just that for the last year+, it does get kind of shallow and is repetitive. Again, I kind of feel like I've played that game already.
Oh, I forgot another con:
5) Corpse runs. I don't want to run back to my corpse if I die. It's basically forcing an adventure on me. Maybe I died because I was sneaking too deep into a tough dungeon and don't feel like repeating the process again. If the death penalty isn't strong enough without the corpse run, take away more xp. I think death should hurt, but don't make it irritating and tedious.
I have to say I am in the same situation as the op... wondering where to go to next or whether I should just give up on this heart-breaking genre of broken promises once and for all... but I still want to game dammit! So I am stuck wondering what to wait for next. Vanguard... honestly just looks like EQ2 but done right... aka a rehash of the same type of game. Darkfall looks good... but then again so did DnL until it turned out to be POS vaporware. DDO was promising until it turned out to be an all instanced gimp fest.
So really the only thing I feel I can look forward to at the moment is Darkfall and looking at their website it looks about as vaporware as anything can possibly look.
Is there anything else coming SOON?
I also agree wholeheartedly with comments about:
-non-loot based system: SWG style player crafted goodness >>> WoW/EQ style lame uber dungeon farming grinds
-skill based system: there is nothing more terrible than having to kiss goodbye to the character you have known and loved and have been known for just because you have done all that that class can do and the character cant grow or develop. When I first played SWG I was kinda annoyed by the one character only thing... but it actually rocked. GET RID OF ALL THE DAMN ALTS, that way we can just enjoy developing the one avatar over time.
@dunadurium: I wasn't laughing at YOU, I was laughing at some of the things that nogardnaz said...Friends?
(lol please don't bug me about my nick, I was having a very bad day that day; I couldn't get a cool nick so I said "screw it! poopypants is good enough!" I've regreted it ever since.
)
@Entropion: I totally agree with you on the avatar thing...I would be perfectly happy just playing one character and mastering that character over a very long period. Project Entropia has an awesome skill-based system and, not coincidentally, they only allow you one character per account.
I can totally empathize with those of you who can't find a MMOG to play...I only like Sci-Fi/modern MMOGs, so I'm doubly screwed. It seems like we're going through some kinda bizzare MMOG middle ages. Doom and gloom and nothing to look forward to.
So very true.
K here are some games (that might be like Vanguard):
Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures
The Chronicles of Spellborn
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (I hate they way they distributed beta keys, but it's understandable since you know microsoft is over watching...)
100% americans 0% Polish 0% Russian and surely 0000000% Korean (Well at least for Vanguard and Conan)