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WAR IS HELL!!!!!
pootown1
Member Posts: 7
when is the mmorpg market going to produce something that parallels the true cause and effect of conflict?
it's soooo simple and no developers will touch it. death penalties are lax if at all. aggression is free, i mean it costs nothing in planning or resources to initialize conflict.
WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR?
what is the true reward? uber items? humilliating noobs?
there isn't a single game that lets you take something from another through conflict other than full loot, which doesn't matter because every game provides a bank to put more shit in. and you can't rob the bank, how dumb.
war should matter. alot!!!!! and fairness should be a matter of who is exploiting the game code and who isn't, rather than who is taking your loot and destroying your town or burning your crops. it's all about give and take and only the strong survive. we need a game from a "ballzy" developer that is going to take that chance and stop letting everybody be fair and happy.
WoW already does this, we don't need anymore of this unchallenging BS.
Comments
As far as I care perma death has no place in a MMO that im gonna play. I do however agrea that some MMO's do lack a bit of a real meaning to conflict.
With the current state of mmo's, It can take anywhere from 1 year to several years of time investment to get all the so called phats you want for your toon. and then theres a very high chance you won't have them all. No one in there right mind wants to see that kind of time investment taken away in my opinion. I sure as hell don't. and then it also depends on how long it takes you to lvl up your toon in some cases it can take the same amount of time. Exspeacially since some mmo's have real time training.
And since balanceing of the classes seems to be the biggest problem most campanys have. Loot minus rares like stated above, credits ... thats fine. Theres really no point for that either since you can move all your items and credits to another character which is what people would do. I think to an extent it would only open the doors to griefers if the game was not made and executed properly, or most peopel only playing one class's over the rest since there will always be one that stands superb above the others.
Just my thoughts. I can see where you are coming from. I'm not against penelty's xp , credit , certian item loot, Item decay, land grabs ect.
obviously the OP has never heard of Eve Online.
As for Permadeath being a "silly" idea, I'd like to paraphrase Richard Bartle on this subject.
Permadeath.....
1) prevents early-adopter players from gaining an iron grip on positions of power.
2) re-uses content effectively, because players view same-level encounters from different angles using different characters
3) It's the default fiction for real life.
4) promotes role-play, because players aren't stuck with the same, tired old character the whole time.
5) validates players' sense of achievement, because a high-level character means a high-level player is behind it
In short: PD is short-term bad, long-term good.
I guess this just demonstrates that people are just as short sighted and selfish in online games as they are in real life.
Perma death is silly.. Maybe if people in general wernt a bunch of Cowards who ran around in packs just so they can beat you it would work.. But since they are, it wont.
Group of scrubs > Skilled Player
Why would I want to play a game were no matter my skills if I get ganked by 5 or more I die and loose my S***......And dont give me that crap about form your own gank squad, some people dont like to hold hands and run around with people everytime you log on.
I do agree that MMORPG's PVP should have more meaning behind them.. But I think it should go the DAOC route were your fighting for land or other things, Not your own gear.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Anytime I hear someone bring up perma death in an MMO I just try to imagine how infuriated some players would be if lag caused the death of their high level character they have played for over a year. The guy who had his cloudsong zerged wouldn't have anything on the anger some people would feel from this.
Sure it can provide some benefits, but considering the kind of time investment MMOs are I can't imagine it going over well. Imagine playing Final Fantasy VII with no saves, and no continues. You die? Start over.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Tinybina wrote:
Perma death is silly.. Maybe if people in general wernt a bunch of Cowards who ran around in packs just so they can beat you it would work.. But since they are, it wont.
And yet this is exactly the way RL life works and you don't feel any sense of danger stepping out of your house. I realize that killing someone in a game has no consequence, but I'm thinking that most of us aren't that antisocial. If you give players a world with several small elements that work well together and make other people more valuable to you alive than dead....
Group of scrubs > Skilled Player
And how many of those scrubs would go down with the skilled player? If you take up a life of just ganking people for fun, your character isn't going to live long enough to advance more than a few levels before you have to start all over again. It all averages out.
Why would I want to play a game were no matter my skills if I get ganked by 5 or more I die and loose my S***......And dont give me that crap about form your own gank squad, some people dont like to hold hands and run around with people everytime you log on.
If that's the way you feel, why don't you play Diablo or Dungeon Siege by yourself or with some friends? The acronymn stands for Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Game. If you don't want to play with others, don't.
Gouki4u wrote:
Anytime I hear someone bring up perma death in an MMO I just try to imagine how infuriated some players would be if lag caused the death of their high level character they have played for over a year. The guy who had his cloudsong zerged wouldn't have anything on the anger some people would feel from this.
Having played Diablo in hardcore mode, that happened to me. You know what I did? I roled a new character and started over. In D2 I've been ganked, griefed, scammed, you name it. But all of those things just made me more cautious to keep those things from happening again. They made me a better player (as far as you can be a "good" player in D2), and ultimately made a rather shallow experience challenging enough to keep me playing for quite some time. Yeah, I got pissed at first, but I learned to take it in stride. I play for the experience and challenge of playing, not for some shiney reward that's dangled in front of me everytime I make a certain amount of XP or gold.
Sure it can provide some benefits, but considering the kind of time investment MMOs are I can't imagine it going over well. Imagine playing Final Fantasy VII with no saves, and no continues. You die? Start over.
Funny you should mention the no saves things. You see, one of the first CRPGs was this thing called Rogue. It was a straight up dungeon crawler that only saved the game on exit and erased your save when you died. People still play rogue and variations of it like NetHack and Zangband. Why do they play it? because it <allow three knocks> CHALLENGES them!!
We all sit around a bitch constantly about how there are no consequences in MMOs and how we breezed through the content in the space of three months. We moan endlessly about grind and lack of involvement. Why don't we just make it so that just seeing the end of the content is something to be proud of? Why don't we bring the challenge back into these games to the point that most players couldn't trust their survival to bot scripts and macros? Why don't we make murder a very risky prospect for all involved?
Yeah, I must be crazy.....
I would not be against permadeath in a game that actually had consequences for murdering another player's character. Say if you murdered a player who was in good standing with an NPC faction you would become an enemy of that faction.
As it stands now in most MMOs being killed is an annoyance, but killing someone is something you don't think twice about.
If the importance of dying goes up then the importance of killing someone needs to go up too.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Perma death will never fly in a MMOG, not a long lasting one anyway.
Nobody would ever make it to the highest level; there would always be some group of little turds trying to ruin your day. Imagine putting in 200 hours worth of effort into your character only to have it nullified by some piece of shit PKer. I'll pass on that game...
Only an imbecile would pay to play a game like that!
You should try DAoC, I think the concept of war there is very realistic.
You have ballistas (catapults) Huge arrows, cauldrons of hot oil to dump on people, It is total war when taking over keeps and such. I was very impressed with how DAoC implemented war.
Guild Wars - Rorick Aurlith E/Mo pumped up with the best armor and weapon, has all his skills, and runes. PvP King!
Dark Age of Camelot - Leaton 50 Vampiir - Lamorak - Guild: Magic and Mayhem!
PermaDeath changes the whole dynamics of a game. Its a defining feature not just a penalty. People who played games like UO or other games with super harsh death penalities and think PermaDeath is the same have no clue what they are talking about, and will most likely be the first to stop playing a game after losing a good character.
I've played games with permadeath, expect people to stop playing for a month or two after losing a good char...sure they may come back(they will always come back is usually the motto in these games) but don't expect them to go back to your clan, town or being your in-game friend. In games like this the pre-CU SWG concept of having couple dozen friends on a friends list is non-existant. Don't expect many quests, just because making new chars over and over would make having quest stupid. Don't expect "epic" gear. The good stuff will mostly likely not be that much better then the crappy stuff and the relics will put such a big target on your head that will make you just likely to throw it away then put it on. Oh and no L33T kids...for obvious reasons
Perma Death games are super fun but that fun comes at a price. Rarely is a perma death game a PvP game, not because the PvP isn't fun (on the contrary it is usually amazing and highly advanced in these games) but just because half the time fighting is just not worth the risk. Do not expect weekly epic battles or random fighting...stare offs, running away and diplomacy will most likely be supreme.
All that being said i have no idea if a perma death mmo will survive the market. Assuming its a well design and polished product, the influx of people subscibing and taking "breaks", with no in-game community incentive to come back to may not make for healthy population. The chronicle isn't really playing with a perma-death concept its playing with an "alpha class" and usually you need perma death to keep them under control. Trails of Asension is playing with it,however even here you have a couple of deaths before you are finally permanently dead. I am curious to see how it fares in the market...if it ever comes out.
poopypants wrote:
Perma death will never fly in a MMOG, not a long lasting one anyway.
Nobody would ever make it to the highest level; there would always be some group of little turds trying to ruin your day. Imagine putting in 200 hours worth of effort into your character only to have it nullified by some piece of shit PKer. I'll pass on that game...
Only an imbecile would pay to play a game like that!
I'm pretty sure that positive thinking doesn't work. And if it does it'll probably be really hard to do....
Iza_Dresan wrote:
Perma Death games are super fun but that fun comes at a price. Rarely is a perma death game a PvP game, not because the PvP isn't fun (on the contrary it is usually amazing and highly advanced in these games) but just because half the time fighting is just not worth the risk. Do not expect weekly epic battles or random fighting...stare offs, running away and diplomacy will most likely be supreme.
Hence the purpose of permadeath. I think that a game where "diplomacy reigns supreme" would be a nice change of pace from the ignorant l337 kiddies and macho insecure PKers that are a plague on most recent MMORPGs. The problem is that you have to make a world rather than a series of pointless quests. People can always burn through content, but a sandbox game can last forever. It's way past time for this industry to make a game for grown ups too.
Lack of thinking out of the box my friend.
How to make a game? You get a character, you can customize it. Ok now we need something that keeps you inside the game, items, how to make items somewhat hard to get so all just doesn't grap the best stuff in a second? By putting prices and drop rates on them, then where should the items come from? Killing underground spiders, which also drops cash...
Well... we just take for granted a RPG is to look like that, the stereotypes of RPG games are starting to bore me, I would not complain to see something new. I want to have a reason for walking out of my first town starting to slay tons of innocent and small rabbits.
Don't hate me for saying this but I just want to prize THE SIMS for thinking out of the box
A RPG without 90% of things that we have seen before.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
There are alot of multi-player games with permadeath.
Extending these games a bit to a near mmo game can be viable.
Content dont have to be as extensive as mmo.
As for mmorpg having perma death, I wont support it.
I wish there were hardcore servers, like there are PvP servers.
There are plenty of people who like Permadeath. I like to pay it through on non permadeath and then play hardcore once I am bored.
DuraheLL wrote:
Don't hate me for saying this but I just want to prize THE SIMS for thinking out of the box
A RPG without 90% of things that we have seen before.
Yeah, I remember when The Sims came out there was alot of talk about combining it's elements with a Diablo style game. Sounds great on paper, but I can't see people liking an RPG where the character that they're supposed to be controlling chickens out, pisses himself, runs away. It's realistic, and truely in the spirit of ROLE playing, but we're all a bunch of control freaks.
What I would like to see is a game that uses the interface from The Sims (the best feature of that game IMO) with the sandbox of UO. Throw in realistic animal behavior, no vorpal bunnies or carniverous bambis, plus permadeath and fixed resources, and you have a game that I'd gladly pay monthly for. Oh yeah, and I like the skill based system of UO as well. You get better at certain things by doing them and worse at the things you don't do often.
Yeah, I know, that's too simple to make any money. I could see a game like this growing in the same way the Eve Online has though.
DR by Simutronics has had it right all along. Perma-death should be possible but not forced. In DR you have to work to get "favors" from the Gods. You trade real XP for those favors and they take work (the more favors you have the more XP they use). When you die, if you have no favors you're gone (permadeath). So people who don't want to work to get favors run the risk of permadeath, it's their choice. Or sometimes you may die several times in a row on a corpse run, using up your favors. Do you risk permadeath or do you possibly give up your gear to go get more favors?
Forced permadeath (with no way to avoid it) would be stupid and nobody would play the game but Jimmy_Scythe here.