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Level-system idea
Pham_Trinli
Member Posts: 20
Most rpg's (especially MMO's) have a kind of diminishing returns system - as you level higher it gets harder to level and you get less rewards for each level (read less exp pts./skill pts. etc.).
I think it would fun and logical, if instead of having the diminishing returns as you gain higher levels - you get a lot more for each level but those levels get harder to attain.
For example (an exp-pt. based system): Assume max. level is 100. You go from level 1 to 2 and get a small amount of exp/skill pts. to distribute. Later, you go from level 9 to 10 and get a little more exp/skill pts. to distribute. Even later on in your character's life you go from level 30 to 31 and get a lot more exp/skill pts. to distribute. The pattern here usually holds true so far. But where it starts to change is usually somewhere passed the half-way mark. Now consider a character going from level 69 to 70 - as a percentage you would usually (in most MMO's) get less exp/skill pts. than if you had continued the earlier trend - which means there is starting a downtrend in the rate of increase of exp/skill pts. from the earlier examples.
What I propose is that instead of having this normal policy of diminishing returns in Hero's Journey - we have a system of increasing returns, and adjust the difficulty of going from, say, level 80 to 81 - to be much harder than going from level 79 to 80.
Why do this? This would accomplish 3 things as I see it:
1) Help to distinguish players who work harder at the game from those who play more casually.
2) In PvP this (keeping class, equipment, etc. equal) would give a clear advantage to those who have earned it. (There would be a marked difference in stat's between a level 79 player and a level 80 player).
3) This would give players more of a sense of accomplishment - knowing that they have truely achieved a level of character improvement to be proud of.
The axiom "The more difficult the struggle, the greater the reward" comes to mind 
"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person."
Comments
1) Help to distinguish players who work harder at the game from those who play more casually.
Wouldn't this effectively be punishing the casual player? If gaining a level is so incredibly hard, most casual players will just give up and leave. You should never have to "work harder" in a game. It's supposed to be fun; "work" is not an aspect.
2) In PvP this (keeping class, equipment, etc. equal) would give a clear advantage to those who have earned it. (There would be a marked difference in stat's between a level 79 player and a level 80 player).
This is a bad thing. It only puts an extreme emphasis on stats rather than players skill. Plus, it means that casual players can forget about PvP altogether. Only the "hardcore" players who are willing to devote a portion of their lives to achieving max level will even stand a chance. No one should have a "clear advantage" just becuase they played for more hours.
3) This would give players more of a sense of accomplishment - knowing that they have truely achieved a level of character improvement to be proud of.
It would give players a greater sense of accomplishment... per level. Since levels are spread far apart, that sense isn't felt very often. Instead of having 50 levels, each one taking months to achieve, with huges benefits per level, most people would prefer having 100 levels, each one taking half the time, with only half the benefits per level. By max level you'd be the same strength either way.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I have to agree with Shroom_Mage on this one.
The system you've outlined is just another way of rewarding those who are willing, or able, to devote extensive hours to playing the game. Someone that can devote 30 hours a week to the game is going to automatically be "better" than someone that can only devote 10 hours a week. And they won't be better because they've learned to play the game better but simply because they've gained a few more levels.
What you seem to be proposing is almost a logarithmic scale so the difference in skills available to a level 79 and a level 80 would be huge. In this type of system the difference between a level 79 and a level 80 is at least as great as the difference between a level 70 and a level 80 in most other systems, maybe even greater. Such a system would create situations where the level 79 warrior isn't useful in his friends level 80 group.
I actually agree with this sentiment. It's just that the system you've outlined confuses difficult with time consuming.
Plus, it means that casual players can forget about PvP altogether. Only the "hardcore" players who are willing to devote a portion of their lives to achieving max level will even stand a chance.
This isn't true at all - all players can still be viable in PvP - it just means that a level 50 would have no chance against a level 80 or so, which is logical to me.
The lower the level you go the wider the gap in level players can span in choosing who they fight.
The higher in level you go the smaller that gap becomes.
Perhaps some of these particular ways of implementing these ideas are flawed as you have pointed out, but the ideas themselves - to create a system in which a few players can truely excel and become all powerful figures (role models for others that all others can look up to) inspires a sense of wonder and excitement. It also gives players a clear goal of glory and fame to reach.
If you make it so all players can reach max. level too easily, then the sense of accomplishment fades and it's not really anything special anymore. But if you make it so all players can level relatively easily and get many smaller goals and accomplishments in the early levels say 1-50 (in a max. level 100 system) then that allows most of the players to access most of the content of the game still. But if you make it much hard er as you get closer and closer to max. level then it lets only the people who really excel at the game (skill will doubtless be involved) reach this level. Remember that commercial : "The few, the proud, the marines"? Now I ask you, what is the allure to join the marines they are portraying in that commercial? Is it because everyone can do it or does it sound like something really challenging and only a few will be able to become one? Isn't it exciting to think you might be on of the "elite"? That is the allure I am talking about. I think when this exists in a game it adds to the overall enjoyment of the game. It provides a goal which can ocupy players for longer while they are still having fun enjoying the content of the game and evern discovering new "high - level" content few others have. Now if everyone can do it it's nothing special and players will explore it all and be like "Ok, now what?".
Yes, I know this is where the "live team" comes into play - creating new content on a regular basis and so-forth, but I still wouldn't make the end-game too "easy".
That's all for now. I think you probably have a better idea of what i'm talking about now.
"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person."
This isn't true at all - all players can still be viable in PvP - it just means that a level 50 would have no chance against a level 80 or so, which is logical to me.
That's not quite what you said at first. In practically any MMORPG, a level 50 has no chance against a level 80. It's standard and it makes sense. What you said is that a level 79 should have no chance (or at least be at a clear disadvantage) against an 80, which just separates players more than it should.
Anyway, after your last post, I can see what you actually mean. I still don't quite agree with you, but I understand where you're coming from. You don't so much mean that leveling would just take a lot longer, but that if there would normally be 70 levels, then 70 would be the highest level most people would (or would even want to) reach. After that is the "uber levels". Levels 71-80 are a lot harder, but allow you become someone truly powerful.
Typically in MMORPG's, we can all get to the highest about of power, the pinnacle of strength, the max level. But if everyone can get to that level, then getting there doesn't make you feel especially powerful. Or, more accurately, it doesn't make you feel "better" than the rest. But there's a couple of questions...
Is there good reason for those special few to be so much stronger than the rest of the community? Maybe, but maybe not.
Personally, while I know I wouldn't have the patience (or simply the time) to become one of them, I usually like seeing those uber "celebrities" in game. It's kinda like, "Ooh, hey, I know that guy. He's so uber." It makes the game feel somewhat more realistic or immersive. Like, in a movie, you don't have armies of powerful warriors, you have those special main characters, and then you have lots of other characters considerably weaker than those main ones.
On the other hand...
The theme of Hero's Journey is that everyone is a hero. So if only those few people who are willing to powerlevel can become the real heroes, then it would sort of go against the philosophy of the game.
If there were "uber levels", should those who attain them really be the community's role models? I don't think so. Powerleveling is generally associated with being at least somewhat anti-social. Not always, but usually people who spend their entire sessions grinding away don't have time to stop and chat or roleplay.
But then again, a good community should have role models. Who should they be? Well, we can expect there to be plenty of active GM's, so they could be a start. What about players? I think those who are most active in the community, and the ones who actually perform heroic deeds (especially in GM events) will be the ones considered few and proud. Think about it... Would you rather be known as the one who got to level 100, or the one whose quick thinking was instrumental in saving a village from an invasion?
Heroism doesn't have to be about time spent; it should be a reflection of all the heroic things the player has done.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
Shroom mage brings up a really excellent point in that everyone is a HERO in Heo's Journey so why should anyone be overly uber compared to everyone else. Some heroes being uber would just make the rest of us the OTHER heroes, SUBPAR heroes, or just not as good heroes.
I also think I tend to agree with Shroom Mage on the subject of role models. The high level characters do not tend to be the role models in games I play and more often than not they tend to be the griefers sadly. The role models for me tend to be the mid to low level characters that take the time to help others, promote a sense of community(making it a place where you feel welcomed and like you truly belong), and make the game better as a whole by not just looking to their own needs or wants.
Humility before Honor.
The high level characters do not tend to be the role models in games I play and more often than not they tend to be the griefers sadly. The role models for me tend to be the mid to low level characters that take the time to help others, promote a sense of community(making it a place where you feel welcomed and like you truly belong), and make the game better as a whole by not just looking to their own needs or wants.
Let me ask you this, though: Have you every played asheron's call? If so did you ever hear of "Tim the Enchantor"? He was the first one to reach max level in that game 126 and was admired by all and like by most. Of course this reputation did not depend solely on the fact that he was (for a long while) the only level 126 on any server but it certainly did help. You can respect someone and their dedication to the game if they are strong or powerful even if you do not particularly like them.
As to the marines commercial I come from a military family so I have some idea of what being in a branch of the armed services is like and I am certainly aware that it is not at all as glamerous as they depict from advertising (to say the least)
. I was simply talking about the allure that the commercial alone created for the audience - while having little or nothing to do with actual experience in the armed services.
I agree with you shroom, on the point of the theme of Hero's Journey where everyone is a hero, but it isn't as if there won't be more dedicated players than others. Are you really saying you would want to stiple the would-be progress of those who would normally excel above others by limiting everyone to a point in their character development which casual players would normally reach and others would be restricted by?
Think of it this way: If Casual Player A wants to make level 70 (out of - say, level 100 max.) and he is perfectly happy to stop there (most of the content being available at this point for instance). But Hardcore Player B wants to make level 100 because he is willing to devote the time and effort to attain a level of achievment for which others can respect him. Now, should we limit all players to the more easily attainable level 70? Or should we put a soft cap at 70 and allow for the possibility of over-achievment for those willing to attempt such a feat?
I think I understand where you're coming from, I simply caution the homoginization of achievment levels in the game (think world of warcraft - max. level 60) ^^
"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person."
First off Pham I'm glad that you are a level headed person. Though I meant no offense in my post I was afraid someone would misinterpret it and blow it out of proportion. You are right about the Marines commercials and their allure. They make some really great commercials and only the Air Force has any that even compete right now imho.
As for AC1, I never played it. I will admit that the guy was dedicated, though I wouldn't say I would respect him for it. I will admit it was an impressive feat, but not one that would get him or anyone else any points in my book.
The way Simu tends to runs things a player never runs out of things to do. They have the best staff and GM's in gaming from what I can tell so levels aren't really going to be a major concern. Simu could have a game with a lvl 60 cap and make it easy to get to, but they unlike Blizzard would be able to make it so it is worth continuing on with your max level character cause in HJ I don't think the Journey ever really ends. I know the adventure never seems to end in their other games.
Humility before Honor.
I'm sorry to bump this up again (it's pretty old).
But I had some comments on this.
Before you even begin to discuss or argue about something.. You should know the facts straight up and down... Or you will get bit in the ass for it.
First of all, please don't rant on about a totally different play style than what this game is...
You can go on telling us about a reverse play style of a copycat mmorpg like EQ, WoW, and so on...
But none of it matters when the game you're trying to talk about is a total diverse play of the up above copycats.
Hero's Journey's intent is to stop all boredom and free the slaves of their boring mmorpg's that involve countless hours of grinding.
"Are you really saying you would want to stiple the would-be progress of those who would normally excel above others by limiting everyone to a point in their character development which casual players would normally reach and others would be restricted by?"
I'm pretty sure I read up on something about the fact that there isn't even a matter for serious level
diversity...
I READ, that both low and high levels could play in the same environment/quests/missions together without a problem... That there was a type of system to make it so both type of levels could kill the same mob without having a weak effect or overpower.
What does this mean? - It means you can play with your friends when you're uber lvl 600 and your friend is level 1. FUN - There's no rush to reach the highest level.
Just sit back and watch history in the making.