Originally posted by Kane I dont know what you guys are talking about with the Old English RPing. The only game thats even really appropriate in would be UO. Even there, nobody I RPed with ever spoke in Old English. You guys making things up again?
Exactly! I've long thought this is just one of those excuses anti-rp people use to bash on the roleplayers. Not once have I ever encountered anyone speaking in Old English in any game I have ever played.
Originally posted by Myrdek The reason I (and most people) play those games is to not have to Think. To have a story unravel before them with the possibility to make some small choices that affect it. It's called passive entertainment. There is plenty of RP in most RPGs. The problem is that most games aren't immersive enough.
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think people want to have to work too hard in a game, but they don't want to be passive watchers either.
The one huge advantage of computer games over other media is the interactivity. There are already many mediums that deliver passive content, most notable TV and movies. I don't think competing against these mediums without taking advantage of computer games' strengths is a good idea.
Originally posted by alienpriest What is up with non-RPers always thinking that RP involves shakespearian english? Ive been RPing since the 70s and can say that I have not once spoken in such a language. ... Some ofe them are poorly handled, ...
You are obviously just such an accomplished roleplayer you do not realise you are doing it ! On a serious note I think you are completely right, the only people I have ever come across that seem to think Olde English is a necessity for RP are those who have no idea what RP is.
I think the biggest problem with MMORPGs stifling a more roleplay friendly environment is everything has player visible numerical stats. If these were all made invisible to the players and instead replaced with descriptive terms or graphical indicators it would stop everyone playing as if they are just trying to solve a maths equation and instead let them enjoy the game itself rather than having to constantly search through item databases and character templates on the web.
Originally posted by Myrdek Ok then, Semi-Passive :)TV is passive, Real world is Active, computer games are inbetween. Games aren't meant as a replacement for RL but a distraction is what i meant
It doesn't really matter what games are meant to be. Some people play them as a replacement for RL, others play as an escape/alternative from RL. I, personally, want to be as active in a game as I can possibly be - I'll watch TV if I want a passive experience.
Also, I do like Myrdek's and theanimedude's ideas about moral and motivation.
Slivver never Ever take away my numbers! It's the reason I live, the reason I play and the reason I loved RPGs since the first I ever played as a kid. When I didn't even know 20 words in english and played Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy. Seeing the numbers raise, my character grow stronger is primordial!
I've loved roleplaying for years, having played more systems than I care to remember, but I rarely RP in MMORPGs anymore. I've always wanted to really get into RPing in MMORPGs but I've never really been able to because of:
1: Maintaining Immersion. I just find it really hard to maintain immersion when playing MMORPGs. Maybe I'm just too old-school RP but things like the UI and graphics end up creating a barrier to immersion for me. I feel too seperated from my character's actions to really get into any serious RPing.
2: Other RPers. Let's face, there are some really bad RPers out there. When you're playing a PnP RPG, this isn't too much of a problem because you just stop playing with them. In an MMORPG they're pretty much unavoidable. Sure, there are Ignore lists but they're only so long and are very immersion breaking because they fragment conversations in the chat window.
By bad RPers, I mean the people who don't so much have a character but rather a collection of cliches and archetypes tied together by some stats. I'm talking about the seemingly endless ranks of rightful kings, orphans with a great destiny or clones of popular fantasy characters. Unfortunately, these also are the people who tend to force their entire backstory on you when you ask them where the tavern is.
3: Story. This is the big one for me. In a PnP RPG, character actions change the game world, even if it's on a tiny level. When you save a town from raiders, you actually save the town from raiders. In an MMORPG, the raiders will always respawn 10 minutes later for you or someone else to kill again. I find it incredibly hard to RP when nothing my character does has any lasting effects.
The idea of a truly evolving MMORPG world where every action had permanent consequences is great but, in my opinion, utterly unworkable given current technology. It'd only be fun for the very early adopters who reached the content first. It'd be a waste of time playing for everyone else because all the dungeons would be empty and the big bad guys killed.
The only way to actually make this work would be to deploy a random/procedural new content generation system. Some dev teams have played with this in solo games but only on a very basic level. To effectively auto-generate new content for an MMORPG, you'd need a system of such massive complexity that it's beyond current capabilities. If we're lucky, we'll see the first genuinely self-generating MMORPG worlds in a few years.
As for encouraging more RP right now, dedicated RP servers (with enforced rules) are the best way to go. Create environments where RP is the norm, not an exception. Not everyone wants to or likes RP so trying to force it on them is just counterproductive. RPers need to accept that, if they play on a regular server, they can't expect everyone else to RP just for their benfit. Give everyone the oppourtunity to play the way they like.
Giving in-game benefits for RPing is a bad idea. Quantifying 'good' roleplaying is impossible from anything other than a personal perspective. We've all got different approaches but none of them are the one, true way. Roleplaying should be it's own reward because it hightens your game experience, not because it gives you a 10% XP bonus.
Roleplay in MMOs requires input from two sources, (i) RP-willing players and (ii) the game.
Players:
RPing on a global scale (e.g., a "roleplay server") will never work. Why? Because it is the Tower of Babel. Some equate roleplay with dorky linguistics (Olde English). There are other problems. Bad roleplayers pick single-dimensional characters and then impose them on the rest of the gameworld. (My character is a prehistoric alien retard that can only speak in prime numbers . . . Look at me I am roleplaying!). This kind of self-righteous silliness destroys roleplay. The beginnings of roleplay are to give some true thought to the character during creation. I don't do a lot of roleplay for circumstantial reasons (because it is the sound of one-hand clapping), but all of my characters have some amount of backstory and a meaningful persona. When I play with like-minded players we can and do include some RP elements. We do not speak in an accent or otherwise "do Shakespere."
RPing in small groups (like the old-school PnP gamers) works well and can work (though not always) in an MMO. The problem is that the MMO replaces one RPG problem with another. PnP games suffered because you had to have a non-player GM to manage the settings and the bad guys. The MMO gets rid of that by supplying a gameworld and populating it with antagonists. The problem, however, is that the group of RPers (because they can only successfully roleplay in a group and not as a server population) can only contend with pre-packaged content that is repetitive and often flavorless.
The Games:
MMOs also suffer some faults that make RPing more difficult than it needs to be. First, irrespective of the milieu (sci-fi, fantasy, superhero) they are generally built around the hack 'n slash D&D games of old. Make character, kill stuff, get loot, advance to impove said stuff-killing and loot acqisition skills, rinse and repeat. The only response/reward that an MMO supplies is character advancement and booty (no, not the good kind). Any longtime RPer will tell you, these are poor tools for motivation. They encourage "power-gaming" and elevate the number-crunching and other elements that displace and/or eliminate any roleplay. Moreover, they introduce and/or aggravate other problems. With advancement and loot serving as the only rewards, players inevitably fall into a hierarchy and often an endless one.
This creates needless complications for RPers. Those interested in good roleplay and/or interesting plot-driven gaming need only a certain level of competence in their character. They may start out with a few skills/talents/powers that need improvement, but they are not embarking on a neverending quest for improvement. Think about your favorite movies, books, etc. Other than some intial learning curve, has any protagonist steadily advanced in power? Superman hit the scene in 1938 and has always been teh uber. Batman OTOH hit the scene in 1940, but his power level remains constant. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker certainly grows in skill/power, but it only takes three movies. In the other Star Wars movies, Obi-Wan advances, but he hits his stride by the second installment. Any later improvement is incremental fine-tuning.
Certain P&P RPGs (namely those built on the 3d6 system, such as GURPs and HERO) actually embraced this model in which a character had substantial early advancements but then hit a plateau after which improvements became smaller. Thus, a hero could become an excellent swordsman after a few adventures/gaming sessions but would have to work long and hard (and to the exclusion of other pursuits) to get that last bit of skill to make him a legendary master swordsman. Level based systems approach this by increasing the amount of xp needed to advance, often in geometric progression (1,000 then 2,000 then 4,000 then 8,000, etc.). However, this model has to reward each level with a significant advancement. The 3d6 model places one "in the money" quickly (say with a 13 or less skill) but the rewards diminish instead of the burdens increasing (jumping from an 11- skill to a 12- is a much greater marginal improvement than going from 15- to 16-). By shifting the focus away from advancement, players can quickly focus their gaming on plots for their game and character/persona development (i.e. not skill/power development).
I submit that an MMO that did not focus exclusively on character power and loot as rewards would be a richer game and one that would promote RPing but not impose it on those of us that "don't do Shakespere." It also offers more "realism" because skills follow a bell curve progession. Assuming you have the aptitude to start, you can become a good if not excellent marksmen in a reasonable period of time and training. Real experience will hone those skills some more. Further work on that talenet, however, will slowly push you into greatness, most of which will be superfluous as a general proposition. There may be one or two situtations where you truly need to have the greatest marksman ever (think Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon I "1000 meters in high winds, maybe only ten guys in the world that could've made that shot"), but most often you will need only a great shooter (i.e. the level of your typical protagonist, enough to kill dozens of stormtroopers, but not Annie Oakley).
By removing the never-ending race for advancement, players could learn the game and make some character choices early on. Then once they are developed (for instance in CoH -- a game that has 50 lvls -- this stage would equate to about level 35), their focus would shift to achieving other goals and conquering other challenges. The rewards for these efforts would be status, money, fame, etc. They would not, however, increase the raw power of the victor.
Even with the sensational trappings of an MMO universe, this would yield more "realism." No matter how long you have played, alll players should have some ability to defeat all others. Not through single combat, but more of a Hobbesian "state of nature" scenario. If 50 brand new players gang up they should present a threat to any single player -- even a "lvl 50" or "lvl 100" etc. Currently, the hierarchical structure of MMOs do not permit this.
A more realistic game will promote more roleplaying.
Every MMORPG I've played has everything they need to begin role playing... its called A controlled enviroment. (The very same essence that pencil and paper RPGs have. The SAME thing.) The Devs have created a world (setting) with a story (some are richer than others, I cant argue with that). Within the setting and story you have races and classes (these are called ROLES). Some game settings use skill systems in place of classes however this changes nothing because your ROLE is still based on which skills YOU have chosen to use the most.
So the Devs have indeed given us all the requirements to PLAY a ROLE The problem is some people enjoy acting out the roles (AKA Role-playing) and some people do not enjoy acting out the roles.
This has nothing to do with game mechanics.
That being clear, I do agree that game mechanics can "help" players with immersion like emotes and SITTING IN CHAIRS, but it would be pitiful to say that you can't RP because you lack these features.
Its all about imagination, and like I said, certain things can improve your experience (like EQ2's voice emotes and detailed character movement). However even when playing the pencil and paper D&D, how often do you or your players actually take out a pipe and take a toke, or actually brandish thier weapon menacingly at thier foe?
To wrap this up, I happen to enjoy the level of RPing that I experience while I play. I can RP anytime I want even if its just a disgusted remark about my char hating goblins, or is afraid of water, but at the same time I can enjoy just plain ol gaming with fellow gamers and talk about phat lewts we got or discuss stats or even other games we've played. Why does it need to be so black and white??
I haven't really read any of these, I was just kinda wondering, how many of you have looked at Hero's Journey? It's in development right now..
Simutronics' other games have a lot of roleplaying in them. They're text based, but Simu knows what they are doing.
I recently got hired on as a World Design GM, and I think that if you really like to roleplay, HJ is the game to do just that. Character creation for example lets you look exactly as you would like to. Hair, eyes, skin, clothes.. It's all customizable. You can change colors and types.. and just because you're wearing a skin tight bikini doesn't mean you're gonna take more damage than someone with big chain mail on. (Yes, it's somewhat unreal, but I always hated playing in the same clothes as everyone else)
I'm hoping there will be lots of RP verbs, and other various RP tools. Like food.. Just for looks, not for stat boosts.. There will ideally be a lot of "need" for a community.. And since I just learned about PvP, well that sounds better than I thought it could. It's a pvp system I think a lot of people WILL like. (Except maybe those who wanna just kill everything in sight. But I think they'll have their own server)
And if Simu does with HJ what it does with DR and GS, there will be RP rewards, so if you're GOOD at your rp, well.. You might be getting a temporary boost in EXP rates, or it might be some kind of temporary fluff so other people can tell you got one (to promote them)..
It's all meant to be fun, and the game looks gorgeous too. Let me tell you..
OH yeah, and don't forget, us GMs, we'll all be there to torment you. We'll be setting off town invasions and have festivals and merchants.. Definitely a game to look forward to.
The limitation is that the story isnt about the characters. In PnP RPGs, the players either directed the action, or determined how the action flowed and were always at the center of it. In MMORPGS, that feeling of "You are the hero" is not there. Your actions and choices are so circumscribed that its hard not to feel like you are just in a sophisticated Hogan's Alley. The second thing that is missing are 3 dimensional NPCs that respond to your choices, and where your choices are more than "Do this quest... or dont".
Both of these are tech/software/logistical limitations. They will require an intensive commitment to story when the player base may not care that much. Or may not know that it does. How much of the success of Half Life and the Final Fantasy series was because of the stories that backed them?
I tend to think people are roleplaying all the time. All of them. People are always following some sort of narrative or another, or at least must be presumed to be pursuing some highest good.
It's the medium that's the trouble. Most routes of self-expression are severly muted or short-circuited. The abrupt nature of encounters in virtual worlds tends to result in people expecting you to 1)not participate, 2)participate right away. Every player is always at risk to fall into someone else's narrative at any moment without their cooperation or input. That's why carebears hate PvPers for instance, but they hold the trump card of just logging out rather than participate in the narrative. RPers are the same way, they expect you to fall in immediately or pull the plug, thus their mode of initiating interaction tends to seems to offend non-Rpers in a vague way.
Also, what do most participants have to talk about anyway. The gods of virtual worlds, especially entertainment-centered virtual worlds, tell all the players pretty much what they need to do. What's there to talk about when there's only actions to be done over and over. If developers are vaguer about the participants' purposes, maybe they'll invent their own purposes and kill one another over their differences, especially the slighter ones.
On the same topic of "what do people talk about?" there is the matter that everyone already knows everyone's name. How do you break the ice by introducing a friend? It's easy to provide instant communication in a virtual world, but is it desirable simply because it is possible or because minmaxers will use 3rd party software anyhow?
Most people's favorite subject to talk about is themselves, so content constructors, or deconstuctors, should keep this in mind.
I'm an online thespian, but since I'm not terribly creative on the fly, I mostly roleplay a bystander.
you cant have a perfect mmorpg if u want roleplaying cause that would enatail controlling the server population, and doing that would turn us all into conformist and soon we'd have a world of human controlled npcs running amok.
It'd be like nazis in WoW.
I say, let the players do as they will, freedom to me is what an mmo provides. Its a community, and its about freedom, and how YOU choose to live in the community be it bandit, warrior, hero, crafter, etc. Or just another "dood" we dont need to conform in our games,
if i for one see RP to a point where i get yelled at for not saying "thou" then im going to quit and go to mmo without roleplaying at all, sayyyyy.... Planetside or something like that.
And roleplaying is good in the way that it does not hinder speach, as in, Alliances battling eachother (horde vs. Alliance, Omni vs. Clan, etc.)
I just think that no one should be ridiculed or rewarded for their speach that would encourage players to act a certain way which would hinder freedom which would make a hugeeeee world of human played "npcs" if you will.
I like to roleplay. In Ryzom, a game i left last month, i played a tryker woman who, in her childhood, has been saved by a kami from matis raiders. Thus she worships 'em instead of karavan. My whole guild there was a roleplaying guild. Before i met 'em i didn't liked roleplaying 'cause i read some "rules" about it that i didnt liked. Today i know that i can make my own rules about roleplaying. Its fun if you play with others that roleplay too. Yet i dont force anyone to roleplay if they dont want, it doesnt even destroy my experience.
I really would like to see more games where it is possible to play any mix of "classes" you want.
I play on an RP server in WOW. I'd love to see more RP immersion in the world. And I'd like to see more servers added. Most available servers are not "RP", the RP servers are often so full that the system suffers from lag, or queques to enter.
I play Guild Wars as well as WOW, and WOW is winning my playing time because it is functioning as the better RP environment. Guild Wars is more gratuitously beatiful in it's artistic rendering, the imbedded storylines are good. But I have met no one at all who RPs there.
OK im sorry i did not read through all the posts i dont have time to read 5 pages i am an 18 year old some may thinks thats an umature stage of life but i love to RP i can just imagine a game thats all about RP the only fault is with a complete RP game you would more then likely take the PVP out which i would not mind image a game where you start off in one city many races coming together to fight the evils of the world taking cities with time and hard work with all the races fighting together against the evil orc and undead nations I think a game build on RP would be amazing when you come into town and NPC's are chearing it would give you a certain feeling that wow i changed the world. Imagine all the amazing things that could happen with an ever evolving RP game where you could be the one changing the game world fending off hordes of a race i just used the above races as an examples i love playing orcs and undead are cool. But imagine 100 to 5000 people fending of an army of NPC's which would be awesome. I think the imagine that some game writers could have would be awesome theres a world of oppertunities and u can make them. Well enough about my rant and ideas i hope you liked my personal oppinion.
I definately want to see more RP. Its sad when I go to a RP designated server, and people are saying "WTF", "OMG", "FTW1!!1111!", and other similar immature acronyms and phrases. It would be nice if games took the focus off loot and focused a bit more on story. MMOs have no reason to have RPG on the end anymore. There is no story in any mainstream MMO today. Its all about getting this phat lewt. so I can destroy this stupid newb.
But I don't think you should have to say things in "Shakespearian" either. DragonRealms has its own kind of global terms, but talk there isn't much different from real life. (well except with profanity filters.. and nothing about real life) But there are terms that are pretty much unique to DR..
like if you're going AFK, it's common to see someone saying "Thinking" or "In my head" but everyone knows it means they're going away from the computer..
I'm hoping HJ kinda goes down that path. I think we're trying to keep down the "numbers" like on health and mana bars, to influence roleplaying.. Because if there are numbers you're just gonna say "I only have 15 hp left!" but if there aren't, well it will be more like "I'm really hurt bad, could I get a heal?"
Oh and did I mention that each of your characters will have different story lines? Nobody will be the same?
I've seen a lot of very interesting and valid responses here and a lot of cool ideas, but people tend to miss out on something pretty basic. The basic problem isn't just with game design, it's with popular perception and language mutation. Granted, virtual sandbox style games are extrememly friendly toward roleplay and tend to attract a very devoted following of roleplayers, but this isn't the only factor effecting roleplay in any given game. Connotations about what some words and phrases mean, in particular the meaning of RPG are also a big factor.
RPG doesn't mean the same thing to all people. There seem to be two very distinctive and perhaps exclusive meanings to the words "role playing game" these days.
Old meaning: Role Playing Game -- a crew of happy dorks get together and pretend to be someone or something, running them through adventures, conflicts and try to work out problems and challenges through the mind and eyes of someone very different from who they really are. THIS is the meaning I learned to associate with the RPG phrase. I was and remain one of those happy dorks. I find this kind of gaming very pleasurable and maybe even theraputic.
New meaning: Role Playing Game -- a computer adventure game where you run an elf or dwarf or other mythical critter avatar through a linear set of challenges to beat the program and win. This is very different from roleplaying, as the focus is entirely on winning or finishing or reaching the top level. In massive versions of this kind of game, there is also an emphasis on getting better loot than other players and finishing first. This context is very unfriendly to players who use the more traditional meaning of RPG, as they tend to move a little slower on the levelling and looting, spending time to grow personas, interact "in character" and pursue more side goals than the adherents of the newer definition.
These are deeply conflicting definitions and playstyles. There is a tendency for players who go by the new definition to disrupt the play of those who still use the old one. Sometimes this is unintentional, a side effect of playstyle clashing, but often it is purely intentional, as a great number of player type two view player type one as not having the same right to play as they chose to and find a lot of amusement in being disruptive. I see a lot of that on WoW.
Why? It's not so much the design of the game as it is the attitudes of the company that runs the game. RP griefers on WoW (people who go to RP servers just to mess with RPers) are not punished or restricted in any way for their actions. This lack of action is seen both by the agressors and the RPers as open permission to continue this kind of behavior by Blizzard. So the agressors spend more time being disruptive and the RPers spend less and less time even trying to roleplay.
In games like the new SWG (NGE), this tendency is less a factor than the game mechanics. In games like SWG (NGE), roleplay is made very difficult and at times almost impossible by hostile mechanics that limit the ability to move and speak easily. This was not always true of this game. Before the NGE changes, SWG was very rich in roleplay on some of its servers. None of the servers were "official" roleplay areas, but roleplayers just kind of gravitated to certain servers and non roleplayers tended to avoid them in favor of servers that weren't as roleplay oriented. So yes, there is a correspondance between game mechanic and roleplay.
I would have to side with Garret.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
RPG has never had anything to do with talking in some terrible Old-Ye British accent. Unless that is one of you characters traits. LOL. It is about immersing your self in your character and playing not the role of the race, class, or profession chosen, but just simply playing a role.
People are so rapped up in that MMORPG not having enough content and then the job is dumped on the developers who are left to remedy this. You just capped your leveling in 30 days and now your bored with nothing to do. Well I am sorry to tell you but in your busy quest to reach the next level and getting the uber gear you missed out on probably the single most important content in any game Role-Playing with other People. In a game like WOW (this is just for example purpose) with over 5 million people playing. How could you ever get bored? Why would you want to play any game about fantasy and dreams and yet choose not to play out your fantasies and dreams? For that matter why pay for a service you dont even want to use? What is the point of character customization? Your character looks just the way you would like him to look. Great now instead of taking that first step given to you and taking one more by creating an actual personality for the character youre waiting for the developers to supply that also.
The problem when it comes to the question of Role-Playing in MMORPG is that many have forgotten that the point of RP is to make your own content through the way you role-play your character. When i used to play AD&D I always played a never pays attention, munching on sweets the entire time half-elf ranger. I played him in EQ, SWQ (minus the half elf part), and EQ2. It was fun and people use to get a kick of seeing me sit down break out the bag of candy share the sweets with my group and start staring into the sky as we healed hp and planned out what next to venture off and do.
This is what Role-Playing is about and that friend unfortunately is where we have lost. Developers cannot give you Role-Playing content, because just like pen and paper D&D. The game was never about the module they sent you and it was never about completing it and getting uber gear because the majority of the time your gear did squat to help your out of most of the situation presented. The game was always about YOU and what YOU did with your character.
Its funny games like EQ, Wow and just about every other MMORPG out there give you options to setup bio's for your character to give them a history, a background into the character you chose to play. Then they give you a world with honestly a ton of content and loot sometimes too much. Making an item unique (as in one of a kind) is not a bad thing. That in its self is content being known as the one character in game with that particular gear will draw attention to that person. People will interact with them more. They will ask to see the weapon. That person will be sought out for that. And for those who would say Hey wait that is unfair what about all of who helped with that epic quest why dont we get a unique item as well. Well here is where the developers can be creative. Something as simple as making available an extremely rare component that can be given to a black smith to be transformed into gear you kill a dragon each of you get a scale from the dragon to create a new type of gear with it. The dragon scale will make the gear extremely rare powerful and in a sense unique as only those who helped in killing the dragon will receive the scales. No other component will be needed just mix this item in place of another component used and there you have it. The person or person who you deem worthy of the unique item depending on the loot only gets that. Everyone else gets a scale. But that example can go on and on lets get back to the subject.
The fact remains that any game that brings thousands of players together to play is never about the game content but the people. FPS shooters never have complaints about content because everyone knows it not about the location, gear or stats its about you and your skills. MMORPG are no different in terms of Roleplaying.
This style does not have to impede on those who just want to hack and slash and want to just level and collect gear. That is fine. That in itself is your Role-playing style but those in this relm have to unfortunately come to terms with that fact that your online world is not the universe it is finite and you will reach the end of all the quest and slayed all the monsters and collected all the gear. That is neither your fault, nor mine, nor the developer of the game. That is the limitation of any man-made reality no matter how well it was made.
The problem with MMORPG, is not RPG. It is MM - Massive Multi-player.
When you gather around with your friends to play D&D, Magic, or Pokemon how many people are there? I would usually say less than 20. Most pen & paper games work best with 4-6 people that think the same or prefer to work together.
The sheer MASIVE MULTI is the real problem. Developers try to create a game that will work for thousands of players, thus making the groups too big. When you get a big group ideas, philosophies and common goals are all difference, thus cause a divide - RPG or PVP.
To truly re-invent "MMORPG", smaller servers or smaller worlds with a more people working towards a common goal will rule.
I wouldn't say that's quite true. DR and GS (Although they are text games, and not as many people play now) used to have well over 2000 people on at peak times, and everyone was roleplaying.
People say muds are different, but the only reason they are, is because people use their imagination. With graphics people let themselves slack, and it's easy for kids who don't like to read to play.
Comments
Lets face the truth people...
MMORPG = Meny Men Online Role Playing Girls
These games will always be about digital gigglies and skimpy virtual bikinis!
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think people want to have to work too hard in a game, but they don't want to be passive watchers either.
The one huge advantage of computer games over other media is the interactivity. There are already many mediums that deliver passive content, most notable TV and movies. I don't think competing against these mediums without taking advantage of computer games' strengths is a good idea.
Ok then, Semi-Passive
TV is passive, Real world is Active, computer games are inbetween. Games aren't meant as a replacement for RL but a distraction is what i meant
You are obviously just such an accomplished roleplayer you do not realise you are doing it
! On a serious note I think you are completely right, the only people I have ever come across that seem to think Olde English is a necessity for RP are those who have no idea what RP is.
I think the biggest problem with MMORPGs stifling a more roleplay friendly environment is everything has player visible numerical stats. If these were all made invisible to the players and instead replaced with descriptive terms or graphical indicators it would stop everyone playing as if they are just trying to solve a maths equation and instead let them enjoy the game itself rather than having to constantly search through item databases and character templates on the web.
Also, I do like Myrdek's and theanimedude's ideas about moral and motivation.
Please NOOOO!!!!
Slivver never Ever take away my numbers! It's the reason I live, the reason I play and the reason I loved RPGs since the first I ever played as a kid. When I didn't even know 20 words in english and played Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy. Seeing the numbers raise, my character grow stronger is primordial!
PLEASE! Don't take away my numbers I beg of you!
I've loved roleplaying for years, having played more systems than I care to remember, but I rarely RP in MMORPGs anymore. I've always wanted to really get into RPing in MMORPGs but I've never really been able to because of:
1: Maintaining Immersion. I just find it really hard to maintain immersion when playing MMORPGs. Maybe I'm just too old-school RP but things like the UI and graphics end up creating a barrier to immersion for me. I feel too seperated from my character's actions to really get into any serious RPing.
2: Other RPers. Let's face, there are some really bad RPers out there. When you're playing a PnP RPG, this isn't too much of a problem because you just stop playing with them. In an MMORPG they're pretty much unavoidable. Sure, there are Ignore lists but they're only so long and are very immersion breaking because they fragment conversations in the chat window.
By bad RPers, I mean the people who don't so much have a character but rather a collection of cliches and archetypes tied together by some stats. I'm talking about the seemingly endless ranks of rightful kings, orphans with a great destiny or clones of popular fantasy characters. Unfortunately, these also are the people who tend to force their entire backstory on you when you ask them where the tavern is.
3: Story. This is the big one for me. In a PnP RPG, character actions change the game world, even if it's on a tiny level. When you save a town from raiders, you actually save the town from raiders. In an MMORPG, the raiders will always respawn 10 minutes later for you or someone else to kill again. I find it incredibly hard to RP when nothing my character does has any lasting effects.
The idea of a truly evolving MMORPG world where every action had permanent consequences is great but, in my opinion, utterly unworkable given current technology. It'd only be fun for the very early adopters who reached the content first. It'd be a waste of time playing for everyone else because all the dungeons would be empty and the big bad guys killed.
The only way to actually make this work would be to deploy a random/procedural new content generation system. Some dev teams have played with this in solo games but only on a very basic level. To effectively auto-generate new content for an MMORPG, you'd need a system of such massive complexity that it's beyond current capabilities. If we're lucky, we'll see the first genuinely self-generating MMORPG worlds in a few years.
As for encouraging more RP right now, dedicated RP servers (with enforced rules) are the best way to go. Create environments where RP is the norm, not an exception. Not everyone wants to or likes RP so trying to force it on them is just counterproductive. RPers need to accept that, if they play on a regular server, they can't expect everyone else to RP just for their benfit. Give everyone the oppourtunity to play the way they like.
Giving in-game benefits for RPing is a bad idea. Quantifying 'good' roleplaying is impossible from anything other than a personal perspective. We've all got different approaches but none of them are the one, true way. Roleplaying should be it's own reward because it hightens your game experience, not because it gives you a 10% XP bonus.
Roleplay in MMOs requires input from two sources, (i) RP-willing players and (ii) the game.
Players:
RPing on a global scale (e.g., a "roleplay server") will never work. Why? Because it is the Tower of Babel. Some equate roleplay with dorky linguistics (Olde English). There are other problems. Bad roleplayers pick single-dimensional characters and then impose them on the rest of the gameworld. (My character is a prehistoric alien retard that can only speak in prime numbers . . . Look at me I am roleplaying!). This kind of self-righteous silliness destroys roleplay. The beginnings of roleplay are to give some true thought to the character during creation. I don't do a lot of roleplay for circumstantial reasons (because it is the sound of one-hand clapping), but all of my characters have some amount of backstory and a meaningful persona. When I play with like-minded players we can and do include some RP elements. We do not speak in an accent or otherwise "do Shakespere."
RPing in small groups (like the old-school PnP gamers) works well and can work (though not always) in an MMO. The problem is that the MMO replaces one RPG problem with another. PnP games suffered because you had to have a non-player GM to manage the settings and the bad guys. The MMO gets rid of that by supplying a gameworld and populating it with antagonists. The problem, however, is that the group of RPers (because they can only successfully roleplay in a group and not as a server population) can only contend with pre-packaged content that is repetitive and often flavorless.
The Games:
MMOs also suffer some faults that make RPing more difficult than it needs to be. First, irrespective of the milieu (sci-fi, fantasy, superhero) they are generally built around the hack 'n slash D&D games of old. Make character, kill stuff, get loot, advance to impove said stuff-killing and loot acqisition skills, rinse and repeat. The only response/reward that an MMO supplies is character advancement and booty (no, not the good kind). Any longtime RPer will tell you, these are poor tools for motivation. They encourage "power-gaming" and elevate the number-crunching and other elements that displace and/or eliminate any roleplay. Moreover, they introduce and/or aggravate other problems. With advancement and loot serving as the only rewards, players inevitably fall into a hierarchy and often an endless one.
This creates needless complications for RPers. Those interested in good roleplay and/or interesting plot-driven gaming need only a certain level of competence in their character. They may start out with a few skills/talents/powers that need improvement, but they are not embarking on a neverending quest for improvement. Think about your favorite movies, books, etc. Other than some intial learning curve, has any protagonist steadily advanced in power? Superman hit the scene in 1938 and has always been teh uber. Batman OTOH hit the scene in 1940, but his power level remains constant. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker certainly grows in skill/power, but it only takes three movies. In the other Star Wars movies, Obi-Wan advances, but he hits his stride by the second installment. Any later improvement is incremental fine-tuning.
Certain P&P RPGs (namely those built on the 3d6 system, such as GURPs and HERO) actually embraced this model in which a character had substantial early advancements but then hit a plateau after which improvements became smaller. Thus, a hero could become an excellent swordsman after a few adventures/gaming sessions but would have to work long and hard (and to the exclusion of other pursuits) to get that last bit of skill to make him a legendary master swordsman. Level based systems approach this by increasing the amount of xp needed to advance, often in geometric progression (1,000 then 2,000 then 4,000 then 8,000, etc.). However, this model has to reward each level with a significant advancement. The 3d6 model places one "in the money" quickly (say with a 13 or less skill) but the rewards diminish instead of the burdens increasing (jumping from an 11- skill to a 12- is a much greater marginal improvement than going from 15- to 16-). By shifting the focus away from advancement, players can quickly focus their gaming on plots for their game and character/persona development (i.e. not skill/power development).
I submit that an MMO that did not focus exclusively on character power and loot as rewards would be a richer game and one that would promote RPing but not impose it on those of us that "don't do Shakespere." It also offers more "realism" because skills follow a bell curve progession. Assuming you have the aptitude to start, you can become a good if not excellent marksmen in a reasonable period of time and training. Real experience will hone those skills some more. Further work on that talenet, however, will slowly push you into greatness, most of which will be superfluous as a general proposition. There may be one or two situtations where you truly need to have the greatest marksman ever (think Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon I "1000 meters in high winds, maybe only ten guys in the world that could've made that shot"), but most often you will need only a great shooter (i.e. the level of your typical protagonist, enough to kill dozens of stormtroopers, but not Annie Oakley).
By removing the never-ending race for advancement, players could learn the game and make some character choices early on. Then once they are developed (for instance in CoH -- a game that has 50 lvls -- this stage would equate to about level 35), their focus would shift to achieving other goals and conquering other challenges. The rewards for these efforts would be status, money, fame, etc. They would not, however, increase the raw power of the victor.
Even with the sensational trappings of an MMO universe, this would yield more "realism." No matter how long you have played, alll players should have some ability to defeat all others. Not through single combat, but more of a Hobbesian "state of nature" scenario. If 50 brand new players gang up they should present a threat to any single player -- even a "lvl 50" or "lvl 100" etc. Currently, the hierarchical structure of MMOs do not permit this.
A more realistic game will promote more roleplaying.
Just my two shekels.
Vectorr
Every MMORPG I've played has everything they need to begin role playing... its called A controlled enviroment. (The very same essence that pencil and paper RPGs have. The SAME thing.) The Devs have created a world (setting) with a story (some are richer than others, I cant argue with that). Within the setting and story you have races and classes (these are called ROLES). Some game settings use skill systems in place of classes however this changes nothing because your ROLE is still based on which skills YOU have chosen to use the most.
So the Devs have indeed given us all the requirements to PLAY a ROLE
The problem is some people enjoy acting out the roles (AKA Role-playing) and some people do not enjoy acting out the roles.
This has nothing to do with game mechanics.
That being clear, I do agree that game mechanics can "help" players with immersion like emotes and SITTING IN CHAIRS, but it would be pitiful to say that you can't RP because you lack these features.
Its all about imagination, and like I said, certain things can improve your experience (like EQ2's voice emotes and detailed character movement). However even when playing the pencil and paper D&D, how often do you or your players actually take out a pipe and take a toke, or actually brandish thier weapon menacingly at thier foe?
To wrap this up, I happen to enjoy the level of RPing that I experience while I play. I can RP anytime I want even if its just a disgusted remark about my char hating goblins, or is afraid of water, but at the same time I can enjoy just plain ol gaming with fellow gamers and talk about phat lewts we got or discuss stats or even other games we've played. Why does it need to be so black and white??
I haven't really read any of these, I was just kinda wondering, how many of you have looked at Hero's Journey? It's in development right now..
Simutronics' other games have a lot of roleplaying in them. They're text based, but Simu knows what they are doing.
I recently got hired on as a World Design GM, and I think that if you really like to roleplay, HJ is the game to do just that. Character creation for example lets you look exactly as you would like to. Hair, eyes, skin, clothes.. It's all customizable. You can change colors and types.. and just because you're wearing a skin tight bikini doesn't mean you're gonna take more damage than someone with big chain mail on. (Yes, it's somewhat unreal, but I always hated playing in the same clothes as everyone else)
I'm hoping there will be lots of RP verbs, and other various RP tools. Like food.. Just for looks, not for stat boosts.. There will ideally be a lot of "need" for a community.. And since I just learned about PvP, well that sounds better than I thought it could. It's a pvp system I think a lot of people WILL like. (Except maybe those who wanna just kill everything in sight. But I think they'll have their own server)
And if Simu does with HJ what it does with DR and GS, there will be RP rewards, so if you're GOOD at your rp, well.. You might be getting a temporary boost in EXP rates, or it might be some kind of temporary fluff so other people can tell you got one (to promote them)..
It's all meant to be fun, and the game looks gorgeous too. Let me tell you..
OH yeah, and don't forget, us GMs, we'll all be there to torment you. We'll be setting off town invasions and have festivals and merchants.. Definitely a game to look forward to.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
The limitation is that the story isnt about the characters. In PnP RPGs, the players either directed the action, or determined how the action flowed and were always at the center of it. In MMORPGS, that feeling of "You are the hero" is not there. Your actions and choices are so circumscribed that its hard not to feel like you are just in a sophisticated Hogan's Alley.
The second thing that is missing are 3 dimensional NPCs that respond to your choices, and where your choices are more than "Do this quest... or dont".
Both of these are tech/software/logistical limitations. They will require an intensive commitment to story when the player base may not care that much. Or may not know that it does.
How much of the success of Half Life and the Final Fantasy series was because of the stories that backed them?
I tend to think people are roleplaying all the time. All of them. People are always following some sort of narrative or another, or at least must be presumed to be pursuing some highest good.
It's the medium that's the trouble. Most routes of self-expression are severly muted or short-circuited. The abrupt nature of encounters in virtual worlds tends to result in people expecting you to 1)not participate, 2)participate right away. Every player is always at risk to fall into someone else's narrative at any moment without their cooperation or input. That's why carebears hate PvPers for instance, but they hold the trump card of just logging out rather than participate in the narrative. RPers are the same way, they expect you to fall in immediately or pull the plug, thus their mode of initiating interaction tends to seems to offend non-Rpers in a vague way.
Also, what do most participants have to talk about anyway. The gods of virtual worlds, especially entertainment-centered virtual worlds, tell all the players pretty much what they need to do. What's there to talk about when there's only actions to be done over and over. If developers are vaguer about the participants' purposes, maybe they'll invent their own purposes and kill one another over their differences, especially the slighter ones.
On the same topic of "what do people talk about?" there is the matter that everyone already knows everyone's name. How do you break the ice by introducing a friend? It's easy to provide instant communication in a virtual world, but is it desirable simply because it is possible or because minmaxers will use 3rd party software anyhow?
Most people's favorite subject to talk about is themselves, so content constructors, or deconstuctors, should keep this in mind.
I'm an online thespian, but since I'm not terribly creative on the fly, I mostly roleplay a bystander.
you cant have a perfect mmorpg if u want roleplaying cause that would enatail controlling the server population,
and doing that would turn us all into conformist and soon we'd have a world of human controlled npcs running amok.
It'd be like nazis in WoW.
I say, let the players do as they will,
freedom to me is what an mmo provides.
Its a community, and its about freedom, and how YOU choose to live in the community
be it bandit, warrior, hero, crafter, etc.
Or just another "dood"
we dont need to conform in our games,
if i for one see RP to a point where i get yelled at for not saying "thou"
then im going to quit and go to mmo without roleplaying at all, sayyyyy.... Planetside
or something like that.
And roleplaying is good in the way that it does not hinder speach,
as in, Alliances battling eachother (horde vs. Alliance, Omni vs. Clan, etc.)
I just think that no one should be ridiculed or rewarded for their speach
that would encourage players to act a certain way
which would hinder freedom
which would make a hugeeeee world of human played "npcs" if you will.
Just another handsome boy graduate...
I like to roleplay. In Ryzom, a game i left last month, i played a tryker woman who, in her childhood, has been saved by a kami from matis raiders. Thus she worships 'em instead of karavan. My whole guild there was a roleplaying guild. Before i met 'em i didn't liked roleplaying 'cause i read some "rules" about it that i didnt liked. Today i know that i can make my own rules about roleplaying. Its fun if you play with others that roleplay too. Yet i dont force anyone to roleplay if they dont want, it doesnt even destroy my experience.
I really would like to see more games where it is possible to play any mix of "classes" you want.
My opinion.
I play on an RP server in WOW. I'd love to see more RP immersion in the world. And I'd like to see more servers added. Most available servers are not "RP", the RP servers are often so full that the system suffers from lag, or queques to enter.
I play Guild Wars as well as WOW, and WOW is winning my playing time because it is functioning as the better RP environment. Guild Wars is more gratuitously beatiful in it's artistic rendering, the imbedded storylines are good. But I have met no one at all who RPs there.
I definately want to see more RP. Its sad when I go to a RP designated server, and people are saying "WTF", "OMG", "FTW1!!1111!", and other similar immature acronyms and phrases. It would be nice if games took the focus off loot and focused a bit more on story. MMOs have no reason to have RPG on the end anymore. There is no story in any mainstream MMO today. Its all about getting this phat lewt. so I can destroy this stupid newb.
I hate pretty much all slang.
But I don't think you should have to say things in "Shakespearian" either. DragonRealms has its own kind of global terms, but talk there isn't much different from real life. (well except with profanity filters.. and nothing about real life) But there are terms that are pretty much unique to DR..
like if you're going AFK, it's common to see someone saying "Thinking" or "In my head" but everyone knows it means they're going away from the computer..
I'm hoping HJ kinda goes down that path. I think we're trying to keep down the "numbers" like on health and mana bars, to influence roleplaying.. Because if there are numbers you're just gonna say "I only have 15 hp left!" but if there aren't, well it will be more like "I'm really hurt bad, could I get a heal?"
Oh and did I mention that each of your characters will have different story lines? Nobody will be the same?
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
I've seen a lot of very interesting and valid responses here and a lot of cool ideas, but people tend to miss out on something pretty basic. The basic problem isn't just with game design, it's with popular perception and language mutation. Granted, virtual sandbox style games are extrememly friendly toward roleplay and tend to attract a very devoted following of roleplayers, but this isn't the only factor effecting roleplay in any given game. Connotations about what some words and phrases mean, in particular the meaning of RPG are also a big factor.
RPG doesn't mean the same thing to all people. There seem to be two very distinctive and perhaps exclusive meanings to the words "role playing game" these days.
Old meaning: Role Playing Game -- a crew of happy dorks get together and pretend to be someone or something, running them through adventures, conflicts and try to work out problems and challenges through the mind and eyes of someone very different from who they really are. THIS is the meaning I learned to associate with the RPG phrase. I was and remain one of those happy dorks. I find this kind of gaming very pleasurable and maybe even theraputic.
New meaning: Role Playing Game -- a computer adventure game where you run an elf or dwarf or other mythical critter avatar through a linear set of challenges to beat the program and win. This is very different from roleplaying, as the focus is entirely on winning or finishing or reaching the top level. In massive versions of this kind of game, there is also an emphasis on getting better loot than other players and finishing first. This context is very unfriendly to players who use the more traditional meaning of RPG, as they tend to move a little slower on the levelling and looting, spending time to grow personas, interact "in character" and pursue more side goals than the adherents of the newer definition.
These are deeply conflicting definitions and playstyles. There is a tendency for players who go by the new definition to disrupt the play of those who still use the old one. Sometimes this is unintentional, a side effect of playstyle clashing, but often it is purely intentional, as a great number of player type two view player type one as not having the same right to play as they chose to and find a lot of amusement in being disruptive. I see a lot of that on WoW.
Why? It's not so much the design of the game as it is the attitudes of the company that runs the game. RP griefers on WoW (people who go to RP servers just to mess with RPers) are not punished or restricted in any way for their actions. This lack of action is seen both by the agressors and the RPers as open permission to continue this kind of behavior by Blizzard. So the agressors spend more time being disruptive and the RPers spend less and less time even trying to roleplay.
In games like the new SWG (NGE), this tendency is less a factor than the game mechanics. In games like SWG (NGE), roleplay is made very difficult and at times almost impossible by hostile mechanics that limit the ability to move and speak easily. This was not always true of this game. Before the NGE changes, SWG was very rich in roleplay on some of its servers. None of the servers were "official" roleplay areas, but roleplayers just kind of gravitated to certain servers and non roleplayers tended to avoid them in favor of servers that weren't as roleplay oriented. So yes, there is a correspondance between game mechanic and roleplay.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
I would have to side with Garret.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
RPG has never had anything to do with talking in some terrible Old-Ye British accent. Unless that is one of you characters traits. LOL. It is about immersing your self in your character and playing not the role of the race, class, or profession chosen, but just simply playing a role.
People are so rapped up in that MMORPG not having enough content and then the job is dumped on the developers who are left to remedy this. You just capped your leveling in 30 days and now your bored with nothing to do. Well I am sorry to tell you but in your busy quest to reach the next level and getting the uber gear you missed out on probably the single most important content in any game Role-Playing with other People. In a game like WOW (this is just for example purpose) with over 5 million people playing. How could you ever get bored? Why would you want to play any game about fantasy and dreams and yet choose not to play out your fantasies and dreams? For that matter why pay for a service you dont even want to use? What is the point of character customization? Your character looks just the way you would like him to look. Great now instead of taking that first step given to you and taking one more by creating an actual personality for the character youre waiting for the developers to supply that also.
The problem when it comes to the question of Role-Playing in MMORPG is that many have forgotten that the point of RP is to make your own content through the way you role-play your character. When i used to play AD&D I always played a never pays attention, munching on sweets the entire time half-elf ranger. I played him in EQ, SWQ (minus the half elf part), and EQ2. It was fun and people use to get a kick of seeing me sit down break out the bag of candy share the sweets with my group and start staring into the sky as we healed hp and planned out what next to venture off and do.
This is what Role-Playing is about and that friend unfortunately is where we have lost. Developers cannot give you Role-Playing content, because just like pen and paper D&D. The game was never about the module they sent you and it was never about completing it and getting uber gear because the majority of the time your gear did squat to help your out of most of the situation presented. The game was always about YOU and what YOU did with your character.
Its funny games like EQ, Wow and just about every other MMORPG out there give you options to setup bio's for your character to give them a history, a background into the character you chose to play. Then they give you a world with honestly a ton of content and loot sometimes too much. Making an item unique (as in one of a kind) is not a bad thing. That in its self is content being known as the one character in game with that particular gear will draw attention to that person. People will interact with them more. They will ask to see the weapon. That person will be sought out for that. And for those who would say Hey wait that is unfair what about all of who helped with that epic quest why dont we get a unique item as well. Well here is where the developers can be creative. Something as simple as making available an extremely rare component that can be given to a black smith to be transformed into gear you kill a dragon each of you get a scale from the dragon to create a new type of gear with it. The dragon scale will make the gear extremely rare powerful and in a sense unique as only those who helped in killing the dragon will receive the scales. No other component will be needed just mix this item in place of another component used and there you have it. The person or person who you deem worthy of the unique item depending on the loot only gets that. Everyone else gets a scale. But that example can go on and on lets get back to the subject.
The fact remains that any game that brings thousands of players together to play is never about the game content but the people. FPS shooters never have complaints about content because everyone knows it not about the location, gear or stats its about you and your skills. MMORPG are no different in terms of Roleplaying.
This style does not have to impede on those who just want to hack and slash and want to just level and collect gear. That is fine. That in itself is your Role-playing style but those in this relm have to unfortunately come to terms with that fact that your online world is not the universe it is finite and you will reach the end of all the quest and slayed all the monsters and collected all the gear. That is neither your fault, nor mine, nor the developer of the game. That is the limitation of any man-made reality no matter how well it was made.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Greetings,
The problem with MMORPG, is not RPG. It is MM - Massive Multi-player.
When you gather around with your friends to play D&D, Magic, or Pokemon how many people are there? I would usually say less than 20. Most pen & paper games work best with 4-6 people that think the same or prefer to work together.
The sheer MASIVE MULTI is the real problem. Developers try to create a game that will work for thousands of players, thus making the groups too big. When you get a big group ideas, philosophies and common goals are all difference, thus cause a divide - RPG or PVP.
To truly re-invent "MMORPG", smaller servers or smaller worlds with a more people working towards a common goal will rule.
-Ravon
I wouldn't say that's quite true. DR and GS (Although they are text games, and not as many people play now) used to have well over 2000 people on at peak times, and everyone was roleplaying.
People say muds are different, but the only reason they are, is because people use their imagination. With graphics people let themselves slack, and it's easy for kids who don't like to read to play.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall