I voted no because what they did was ethically wrong. They deliberately lied to their player base and snuck this thing in without asking us the community what we as PAYING customers wanted. We are the ones who pay the bills so I think the customer should be active in what changes if any are made to a product.
The customer is ALWAYS right.
Pepi Deto Colonel Rebel Alliance Corbantis Server "Any company who tries to 'wait it out' will be just that, out!" - Tommy Boy
Minor changes, ok. But they need to communicate with the community and get them on board.
Major game-engine revamping like the nge is going too far. Unless they decide to create new servers and classic servers... it is an outright betrayal of the players. Make SWG2 or something.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
SOE has the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and however the hell they want to their own damn code. They could take down the servers tomorrow and tell all of the players to go screw themselves. Anyone that says "NO" on this forum hasn't a clue. YOU AGREED TO ALLOW SOE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO THE GAME WHEN YOU INSTALLED IT. That little disclaimer that says "game play may change", among others. The game had 32 broken professions before all this.... AN IMPOSSIBLE AMOUNT OF SKILLS/ABILITIES TO BALANCE... THINK ABOUT IT. The reason other MMOs are successful, like wow, is because of the simplicity. Sony had to compete with this. Everyone is so caught up with wow and giving it so much damn praise... you think these other companies are going to sit back and do nothing while a simple game like wow can dominate the market. SWG was and still is far more advanced than any other mmo on the market. If they didn't have to compete with a marketplace that praises simplicity, that doesn't know how to work hard, that wants everything fed to them on a silver platter, that complains like children when something doesn't go their way, that signs a contract and then complains when that contract is called upon. YOU, THE PLAYERS, have destroyed SWG... You have forced them to do this to the game... Sony didn't all of a sudden say to themselves one day.... Let's destroy a great thing. No... on the f'ing contrary... They got bashed constantly... ridiculed about their code... complaints pouring in every which way how broken the game was and unbalanced... THEY ANSWERED YOUR DAMN CALL. The player community wants everything done FAST and EFFICIENT. Guess what... they did it fast. Sony did everything that these f'ing complaining gamers want then when they do, it's thrown right back in their face. Sure, you can say that they didn't present the NGE in a better way... I understand why... why can't you?
Anyone that is still bashing this game or still bashing the way they operate.... F*** you, you're clueless.
p.s. The NGE is great and I've been playing since beta. To all those people that say the game is great for children now... I guess all the other mmos are suited for infants? Seriously... you want to beat on a dead horse and call this game simple now? ARE YOU SERIOUS? GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF ONE GAME THAT IS STILL MORE ADVANCED THAN SWG (don't include EVE... EVE makes their game seem advanced when in actuallity it's extremely simple in design). I'm so sick and tired of you people spreading false information because they feel wronged... GET OVER YOURSELVES.
Technically and legally (look at most of the EULAs you accept) they have the right. On the other hand: if they advertise and sold this game being A and then turn the product into B, then this could be considered false advertising, and that's illegal, EULA or not. At least that's how it works in my country.
------------------------------------------------
Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
In regards to SWG I voted no. I realize it is their product to do whatever they wish, however SOE is in the business of providing a product so that customers can enjoy playing. Normally I would say yes, but SOE's reasoning for bringing out NGE was just darn right greedy.
To actually believe you would be able to keep the attention span of 10 years as long as us older folks was just plain stupid. I wonder if the person who made the suggestion at SOE's board meeting to dumb down the game so they could make more money is still around?
When you have a buggy game from release and for 2 and a half years continue to add patches while approx 250k people forgave you and stuck it out; how can you justify giving your most loyal fans the BIG SHAFT?
while yes, it is the company's product, there's a certain responsibility to the end user as well.
To borrow someone else's comparison, the changes that SOE made, were like waking up one morning, finding a note on your door "oh, we're the car dealship. we made a few changes to your car for you, we thought they were needed". And your blue sedan is now painted green with purple polkadots, and the V6 you had was ripped out and replaced with a 3-cylender Yugo engine.....
I loved the original SWG. The flexibility you had to create your character, make them what you wanted was amazing. Then came the CU, which ripped away alot of things from alot of classes, and IMHO, totaly screwed up the crafting world. Now the NGE has come, and taken away the last of the things I loved about the game. It looks like it would make a wonderful console port now, and here's a hint.. **SOME PEOPLE HATE PLAYING ON GAME CONSOLES**
Even if they did roll back to the original systems, I wouldn't come back, because SOE has lost my faith, which is a bad place for any company to be with a consumer. There was a sizeable petion out there, which should of at least made SOE think twice about the CU, but they didn't even bat an eye and rushed the changes thru. Kind of a big F-U to alot of us players who understood changes needed to be made, but not to such a harsh degree.
Originally posted by Harafnir As I see it, of course they have the right... It is their product, and just as a car manufacturer can decide to put a lawnmover engine in their car and see if it sells, a game designe can drastically change their game, and see if that sells.are crazy and... he has very well kept grass back home now.
If that same car manufacturer came round my house and attempted to swap my Mercedes engine for a lawnmower engine I would shoot them in my drive.
It's not their game. It's my game. I have bought it. They have sold it.
I also pay them extra to maintain a service. Tech support, lag free servers and additional content.
They accept this money in advance and they are contractually bound to fulfill their end of the bargain. Just like in any other service industry, if they welch on their end of the deal, not only am I unlikely to further use their service but I am entitled and capable of recovering my money which they have recieved under false pretence.
Originally posted by Harafnir A game developer also have the right to cancel the game with a weeks notice and end all subscriptions immediatly, if the game does not go well.
No he doesn't.
The game promises online play on the box, and if it doesn't provide it, he is in breach of the contract of sale. False advertising is a civil offense in North America and a criminal offence in the EU. A game developer can go to prison for that kind of behaviour.
Compensation is very easy to get. Everybody pays by credit card.
In order for your credit Card company to refund you your money, you should provide them with a copy or your request for a refund, and a copy of any receipt of that request provided by the company.
An email to tech support and a copy of the auto response was all I needed to get me my refund for my total multiple COH subsciptions. ($90) I would also have been well within my rights to return the box to my place of purchase and get a full refund too.
Originally posted by Harafnir As I see it, of course they have the right... It is their product, and just as a car manufacturer can decide to put a lawnmover engine in their car and see if it sells, a game designe can drastically change their game, and see if that sells. Now... when no one buys that lawnmover Mercedes, since most costumers speak with their wallets... Then the real question appears: what will the manufacturer do? Admit a mistake and put a real engine in the car. Or say all the costumers are crazy and... he has very well kept grass back home now.
This analogy is a bit off. While I havent played SWG myself from what I've heard it sounds like what SOE did to SWG is like paying for a Mercedes and after months of putting gas money and upkeep to maintain your Mercedes, Benz comes and reposesses your car and tears out the body, engine, interior and even changes it to take high performace F-1 Racing gas instead of unleaded gas. Then they send it back to you. Now you can choose to cancel your payements for the Mercedes but all that money you spent on it would be wasted. On the other hand many people wouldnt want to continue with the Mercedes because it was changed into something that they didnt like (perhaps the newer Mercedes would be slower or uglier, or perhaps have less features).
This is a very iffy issue, while developers technically do have the right to modify their game (since there are no laws stating that mmorpg makers cannot patch their games, or revamp) it is not only unethical but a bad business move as well. Some changes are good, but I believe before any changes are implemented (even slight ones) they should be run on a test server to see how the community reacts and only be implemented if a good majority of the people agree with the changes. Even then, changes that involve a character wipe and/or a complete rehaul of the engine and gameplay mechanics should come with compensation for any player who does not agree with the changes, whether it be a refund for all the months they played starting when then update was announced, free additional months, ingame items, or a complete refund of the game and monthly fees.
While expecting a full refund is unrealstic, the companies should at least offer some compensation to the people who put time into a game that eventually disappeared and in its place a completely different beast.
-Shojin
I actually don't see how changing the game is unethical. I think the approach taken was a grey ethical area, but the actual changes or desire to change was not unethical. I actually gave NGE three months in live (I could never get on the test server) and then left.
It comes with some responsibility as well. Long term payors, those who pay 6 months or a year at a time, should be given the option for a refund. They contracted with the vendor for a specific service and the changing of that service constitutes a breech of contract. Therefore, they should be able to retrieve the unused portion of their subscription.
Also, SOE needs to remember what I always tell my children. You will have to live with the consequences of your actions.
SWG lost a huge portion of the community. They may have made it up in new sales, but wouldn't it have been better to keep the customers they had and simply add to the customer base?
I voted yes not because I agree with the changes the SOE made to SWG, but because from a legal standpoint they do have the right to make these changes. However, it's not their right to have the customers agree or even like the changes. The developers have the right to change the product but the consumers also have the right to either buy the product or not. In the case of SWG, I think the consumers have overwhelming decided NOT to buy or support SOE's product.
They most certainly have the right to change it, just as they have the right to watch it fail miserably and backfire when they alienate their long-term customers in a greedy, ill-fated attempt to snatch some subscribers from the most popular MMORPG.
Just like I have the right to cancel my SWG accounts and subscribe to World of Warcraft, a right I exercised a few weeks ago and am quite satisfied with.
Good luck to SWG and SOE, because they are going to need it. The only way they will successfully attract and retain new customers is copying the other majorly successful MMO, Guild Wars, and go with the subscription-fee-less model, as they are apparently planning to do, as reported by PC Gamer in this month's issue.
Originally posted by @Large SOE has the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and however the hell they want to their own damn code. They could take down the servers tomorrow and tell all of the players to go screw themselves. Anyone that says "NO" on this forum hasn't a clue. YOU AGREED TO ALLOW SOE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO THE GAME WHEN YOU INSTALLED IT. That little disclaimer that says "game play may change", among others. The game had 32 broken professions before all this.... AN IMPOSSIBLE AMOUNT OF SKILLS/ABILITIES TO BALANCE... THINK ABOUT IT. The reason other MMOs are successful, like wow, is because of the simplicity. Sony had to compete with this. Everyone is so caught up with wow and giving it so much damn praise... you think these other companies are going to sit back and do nothing while a simple game like wow can dominate the market. SWG was and still is far more advanced than any other mmo on the market. If they didn't have to compete with a marketplace that praises simplicity, that doesn't know how to work hard, that wants everything fed to them on a silver platter, that complains like children when something doesn't go their way, that signs a contract and then complains when that contract is called upon. YOU, THE PLAYERS, have destroyed SWG... You have forced them to do this to the game... Sony didn't all of a sudden say to themselves one day.... Let's destroy a great thing. No... on the f'ing contrary... They got bashed constantly... ridiculed about their code... complaints pouring in every which way how broken the game was and unbalanced... THEY ANSWERED YOUR DAMN CALL. The player community wants everything done FAST and EFFICIENT. Guess what... they did it fast. Sony did everything that these f'ing complaining gamers want then when they do, it's thrown right back in their face. Sure, you can say that they didn't present the NGE in a better way... I understand why... why can't you? Anyone that is still bashing this game or still bashing the way they operate.... F*** you, you're clueless. p.s. The NGE is great and I've been playing since beta. To all those people that say the game is great for children now... I guess all the other mmos are suited for infants? Seriously... you want to beat on a dead horse and call this game simple now? ARE YOU SERIOUS? GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF ONE GAME THAT IS STILL MORE ADVANCED THAN SWG (don't include EVE... EVE makes their game seem advanced when in actuallity it's extremely simple in design). I'm so sick and tired of you people spreading false information because they feel wronged... GET OVER YOURSELVES.
See...the 10 year old DO like it!
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Baff, tell that to the players of Earth and Beyond. One day they woke up, and the game was gonna be cancelled a few weeks later. Any and every MMO has the same end in its future, no matter what you think. They will all end, one day. And when they do, some players will stand there, wondering where their game went.
You think the company have some obligation to give those players all their money back? Sorry, but no. They are renting time in an amusement park, monthly rate. When the park closes, they still had all those hours of fun. You pay for the time you play... in advance. When that time is up, you have no right to get your money back.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
i have played SWG since 2 months after launch, i lived through the PRE-cu, the CU, and the NGE. Does the NGE help? yes newbies elder players NO. They have driven the elder players to either quit. or just not want to play. The CU was GREAT! ya it took us a few to get used to it but once we did it was great ya it took some getting used to but once we did, WOW! that made it fun, no more of this we need buffs crap and such that almost took away the fun of the game. Then they give us this NGE and the game suddenly turns to crap and it just wasnt what it used to be.
no they dont have the right. you cant sell a customer a corvette, have them sign the title on it, then come back and repo the vette, smile at them, give them a kia , and tell them that that the payments are the same, but WE know know that they will like the kia better then the vette.
and there is a HUGE difference from changing, altering a game, and replacing it altogether, twice.
we arent even talking about major gam changing here, we are talking about game replacement, twice.
another example, your a wow player, next time you log on, your playing pirates, everything you accomplished in game for 3 years has been erased. all your uber loot has been made starter loot.noobs now start with what you have. and the devs are telling you that you are happier this way.
in the mean time there is a 300k subscription cancel/exodus, and the devs are going on tv using FUZZY math to represent their subscription numbers, or, outright say no comment. swg, is the game industry example of how not to run a mmo.
I replied "maybe". While they can change their product any way they see fit, the customers will decide if they want to buy it. If it is a crappy change, then expect crappy response.
I do believe they should have more customer input before deciding their action. Last decision they made lost customers that had many accounts. That means the older player base left..fed up with being left with something they no longer wished to support.
What they don't have the right to do, however, is advertise falsely. Boxes, commercials, etc. They all need to be stripped of anything that pertains to the new game. They should not have released Trials of Obi Wan and emphasize goodies for Creature Handlers, only to take the entire profession out. At least that was refunded. Speaking of which, I also consider it false advertisement making people who had pre-paid continue to pay for this new game. They are not playing what they bought. Refunds should have been offered immediately.
So, yes, they have the right to do whatever they want. But, they don't have the right to lead the customer on and expect them to pay for something that they aren't getting.
And, even though I believe they have the right to change it, I also have the right to take my money elsewhere. And, that's exactly what I've done. And, anything under the umbrella of Lucas Arts or Sony is on lifetime boycott from me and probably others that I know due to word of mouth. And, I'm just one person, there are others who've done the same thing.
So, yes, Sony can do what it wants. But, they also have to deal with the fallout, because the consumer can also do what it wants.
It is their licensed product so maybe they do have the right to change. But as an almost two year vetran of SWG I feel like I paid them to Beta test a product that they were going to change anyway. And they never seemed to listen to the players like they said they did. I quit the game more on what I perceived as poor business practice than the changes made to the game. And no I didnt like the NGE. The CU I could live with but the NGE turned an RPG into a quasi-FPS. No other game has made me want to toss my comp out the third floor window of my apartment after only an hour of playtime.
I am with the consensus here that say Yes the Devs have a "right" to severely change the game after launch, BUT it would be Foolish for them to do so and they will significantly diminish their subscription potential by doing it.
I played from launch date through the first several months until the first Jedi was unlocked. Then other interests took me away from SWG and I was very glad because all my friends were so frustrated with what happened in the long run. I am glad I did not have to go through that.
zzzilladraw you are wrong and so are many others in this forum. You did not buy a physical product. You are renting the use of their Role Playing World to create a character and level it etc. You are not in any way buying the released version of the game (you bought ACCESS to it) and you accept the risk that they will make some changes. I agree with your philosophy that they have changed your Corvette into a Kia but technically you were Renting it not owning it.
@Large I bow to you. You have the intelligence to see it like it is and a big pair of steel ones to actually come forward and say it. I agree with you almost completely. Keep up the good work and keep busting the whining little xploiters and hacks !
I had to vote no on this one. While you can say that technically they have a right to do whatever they want, the consumer has rights as well.
At the heart of the debate is whether an MMORPG is a game or a service. While you buy the game and expansions, you also pay a monthly fee to maintain access to that game. Playing an MMORPG involves a certain amount of trust on the part of the consumer that if they invest their time and money into playing a game they will advance and gain rewards and enjoyment in the future as their character develops. They are assuming that the basic game mechanics will remain in place so that they eventually see the rewards of their efforts, both time and money. If it becomes accepted practice that the basic game mechanics can be completely overhauled at any time with little or no warning it becomes very hard for that trust to develop. Sure a game will change, that's what makes online games so interesting and dynamic but a sudden overhaul of the underlying game mechanics and structure is basically exchanging one game for another and that is unacceptable.
I think the industry reaction to SWG may play a significant role in how MMORPGs develop in the future. I'm encouraged by the fact that the response by most people involved with the industry is so negative, that it's not just disgruntled players that are upset. SOE/LucasArts engaged in some very deceptive practices involving the CU and apparently the NGE as well. Requesting player feedback on proposed changes to existing systems for months while they worked on a completely different system is fraud. Shutting down SWG and restarting with SWG2 would have been the better way to go but of course they would have lost those subscription fees in the interim so instead they baited the playerbase with promises of improvements then switched the game. Player correspondents volunteered their time and effort to gather player feedback that was totally ignored because SOE/LucasArts would not tell the playerbase what they were planning.
I'd like to know how many players paid for multiple months at a time, I know I was paying in 3 month blocks for my main account so I was still subscribed for a couple months after the CU because I had prepaid for that long. It would be interesting to see how much that affected their numbers of vets sticking around for a while at least.
I played SWG for almost 2 years from about a month after launch until the CU, with a second account for the second year. My husband played from day one until the CU. Reading the two producer letters I was struck by how familiar they sounded. We heard the exact same claims over and over and instead of seeing the results they're claiming to be working for we got the CU and then the NGE. All I could do was laugh and not believe a single word of it. It will take some serious evidence of change on the part of SOE and LucasArts before I'll ever have anything to do with either one again.
Unfortunately, of course developers have the right to completely alter the game after it has been released, however, they also have a responsibility to the paying customers to consider any such changes and enter a real consultation with the fans before such a massive change.
SOE and Lucasarts show a blatent disrespect and lack of experience and foresight in there decision to fundamentally change there product without any real consultation with the fans and customers. The long term future of the game is no longer important. The long term damage to LA and SOE is something they will now have to absorb. There are always people who will overlook what they did and continue to line the pockets of these companies. SOE and LA have damaged confidence in there products with the consumers and taught the other development companies a valuable lesson that will hopefully never be repeated. CONSULT AND LISTEN to the CUSTOMER.
For myself, SOE and LA products are now completely off limits, I will not touch them again. I am sure that there are 1000's of others out there that feel the same way and it cna only benefit the rivals to SOE and LA.
While i do hope for SWG to fail miserably just to completely destroy any credibility LA and SOE have left, I am looking to the next generation of games to spend my money on.
A developer (in my opinion) doesnt have the rights to dramaticly change the game, they should release it then as a second version, that works aside of the original, and not remove the original game for the "enhanced" version.
With the topic SWG, i've played it for more then 2 years, but after the CU al lot of my friends left the game, because (and they were right) SWg had it's own combat system, as no MMORPG has seen before... With the best crafting system, the greatest community, the diversaty with combat professions, and a awsome entertainer system.. After the CU we had "combat levels", which is a more common system all over the MMO's, and with the comming of the NGE, there was no idenitity anymore. It was/is now a clone between EQ2/WoW/CoH and a tiny bit of the old system left.
I say: What we have played, was the best MMO system ever!! Maybe it was unballanced, but everything else made up for it.. And what the MMO's these days misses, including the SWG:NGE is:
CREATURE HANDLERS and BIO ENIGNEERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by @Large SOE has the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and however the hell they want to their own damn code. They could take down the servers tomorrow and tell all of the players to go screw themselves. Anyone that says "NO" on this forum hasn't a clue. YOU AGREED TO ALLOW SOE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO THE GAME WHEN YOU INSTALLED IT. That little disclaimer that says "game play may change", among others. The game had 32 broken professions before all this.... AN IMPOSSIBLE AMOUNT OF SKILLS/ABILITIES TO BALANCE... THINK ABOUT IT. The reason other MMOs are successful, like wow, is because of the simplicity. Sony had to compete with this. Everyone is so caught up with wow and giving it so much damn praise... you think these other companies are going to sit back and do nothing while a simple game like wow can dominate the market. SWG was and still is far more advanced than any other mmo on the market. If they didn't have to compete with a marketplace that praises simplicity, that doesn't know how to work hard, that wants everything fed to them on a silver platter, that complains like children when something doesn't go their way, that signs a contract and then complains when that contract is called upon. YOU, THE PLAYERS, have destroyed SWG... You have forced them to do this to the game... Sony didn't all of a sudden say to themselves one day.... Let's destroy a great thing. No... on the f'ing contrary... They got bashed constantly... ridiculed about their code... complaints pouring in every which way how broken the game was and unbalanced... THEY ANSWERED YOUR DAMN CALL. The player community wants everything done FAST and EFFICIENT. Guess what... they did it fast. Sony did everything that these f'ing complaining gamers want then when they do, it's thrown right back in their face. Sure, you can say that they didn't present the NGE in a better way... I understand why... why can't you? Anyone that is still bashing this game or still bashing the way they operate.... F*** you, you're clueless. p.s. The NGE is great and I've been playing since beta. To all those people that say the game is great for children now... I guess all the other mmos are suited for infants? Seriously... you want to beat on a dead horse and call this game simple now? ARE YOU SERIOUS? GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF ONE GAME THAT IS STILL MORE ADVANCED THAN SWG (don't include EVE... EVE makes their game seem advanced when in actuallity it's extremely simple in design). I'm so sick and tired of you people spreading false information because they feel wronged... GET OVER YOURSELVES.
You can put the noise right where the sun don't shine. There is NO doubt in MY former military mind that YOU are an SOE employee. NO customer in their right mind would expect some BS company like SOE and LA to OVER HAUL the game, COMPLETELY change it after you bought the product. To think otherwise is stupid. I hope you lose your fricking job.
Just like the post above if you make a car with a lawnmower engine in it and you buy it that is YOUR problem. If you buy a car with a normal engine and then when you bring it to the dealer for service he puts a lawn mower engine in it and calls it an ungrade ... that is BS.
Not being able to manage 32 professions is BS too. I don't like the BS and I don't like smoke you peopole at SOE and LA are blowing. You look for ANY BS excuse to try to justiy ... that's right "JUSTIFY" what you are doing. Well let me tell you somehting son..... people aren't that stupid.
Another thing moron..... all we wanted was the bugs fixed and content added. Yes there were some people that complained about how unbalanced professions were 1v1 in a duel but too fricking bad ... this is an MMO and professions can not be ballanced like that in an MMO. IF soe and LA had half a fricking brain they would have used the IN GAME email system or regular email, sent out an email that required them to select an option wich generated a response and auto deleted the email from their Inbox or find another way so they cant forward or resubmit their response.
Besides fool .... SOE and LA admited in an interview this was ALL about making more money. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. NO ONE asked for the CU .... NO ONE asked for the NGE .... the playerbase DID ask for bug fixes and content .... NOT FRICKIN REVAMPS!!!!!!!!!!! AND NOT A COMPLETE GAME CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Comments
I voted no because what they did was ethically wrong. They deliberately lied to their player base and snuck this thing in without asking us the community what we as PAYING customers wanted. We are the ones who pay the bills so I think the customer should be active in what changes if any are made to a product.
The customer is ALWAYS right.
Pepi Deto
Colonel Rebel Alliance
Corbantis Server
"Any company who tries to 'wait it out' will be just that, out!" - Tommy Boy
Minor changes, ok. But they need to communicate with the community and get them on board.
Major game-engine revamping like the nge is going too far. Unless they decide to create new servers and classic servers... it is an outright betrayal of the players. Make SWG2 or something.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
SOE has the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and however the hell they want to their own damn code. They could take down the servers tomorrow and tell all of the players to go screw themselves. Anyone that says "NO" on this forum hasn't a clue. YOU AGREED TO ALLOW SOE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO THE GAME WHEN YOU INSTALLED IT. That little disclaimer that says "game play may change", among others. The game had 32 broken professions before all this.... AN IMPOSSIBLE AMOUNT OF SKILLS/ABILITIES TO BALANCE... THINK ABOUT IT. The reason other MMOs are successful, like wow, is because of the simplicity. Sony had to compete with this. Everyone is so caught up with wow and giving it so much damn praise... you think these other companies are going to sit back and do nothing while a simple game like wow can dominate the market. SWG was and still is far more advanced than any other mmo on the market. If they didn't have to compete with a marketplace that praises simplicity, that doesn't know how to work hard, that wants everything fed to them on a silver platter, that complains like children when something doesn't go their way, that signs a contract and then complains when that contract is called upon. YOU, THE PLAYERS, have destroyed SWG... You have forced them to do this to the game... Sony didn't all of a sudden say to themselves one day.... Let's destroy a great thing. No... on the f'ing contrary... They got bashed constantly... ridiculed about their code... complaints pouring in every which way how broken the game was and unbalanced... THEY ANSWERED YOUR DAMN CALL. The player community wants everything done FAST and EFFICIENT. Guess what... they did it fast. Sony did everything that these f'ing complaining gamers want then when they do, it's thrown right back in their face. Sure, you can say that they didn't present the NGE in a better way... I understand why... why can't you?
Anyone that is still bashing this game or still bashing the way they operate.... F*** you, you're clueless.
p.s. The NGE is great and I've been playing since beta. To all those people that say the game is great for children now... I guess all the other mmos are suited for infants? Seriously... you want to beat on a dead horse and call this game simple now? ARE YOU SERIOUS? GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF ONE GAME THAT IS STILL MORE ADVANCED THAN SWG (don't include EVE... EVE makes their game seem advanced when in actuallity it's extremely simple in design). I'm so sick and tired of you people spreading false information because they feel wronged... GET OVER YOURSELVES.
Technically and legally (look at most of the EULAs you accept) they have the right. On the other hand: if they advertise and sold this game being A and then turn the product into B, then this could be considered false advertising, and that's illegal, EULA or not. At least that's how it works in my country.
------------------------------------------------
Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny
Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
In regards to SWG I voted no. I realize it is their product to do whatever they wish, however SOE is in the business of providing a product so that customers can enjoy playing. Normally I would say yes, but SOE's reasoning for bringing out NGE was just darn right greedy.
To actually believe you would be able to keep the attention span of 10 years as long as us older folks was just plain stupid. I wonder if the person who made the suggestion at SOE's board meeting to dumb down the game so they could make more money is still around?
When you have a buggy game from release and for 2 and a half years continue to add patches while approx 250k people forgave you and stuck it out; how can you justify giving your most loyal fans the BIG SHAFT?
I also replied with a maybe....
while yes, it is the company's product, there's a certain responsibility to the end user as well.
To borrow someone else's comparison, the changes that SOE made, were like waking up one morning, finding a note on your door "oh, we're the car dealship. we made a few changes to your car for you, we thought they were needed". And your blue sedan is now painted green with purple polkadots, and the V6 you had was ripped out and replaced with a 3-cylender Yugo engine.....
I loved the original SWG. The flexibility you had to create your character, make them what you wanted was amazing. Then came the CU, which ripped away alot of things from alot of classes, and IMHO, totaly screwed up the crafting world. Now the NGE has come, and taken away the last of the things I loved about the game. It looks like it would make a wonderful console port now, and here's a hint.. **SOME PEOPLE HATE PLAYING ON GAME CONSOLES**
Even if they did roll back to the original systems, I wouldn't come back, because SOE has lost my faith, which is a bad place for any company to be with a consumer. There was a sizeable petion out there, which should of at least made SOE think twice about the CU, but they didn't even bat an eye and rushed the changes thru. Kind of a big F-U to alot of us players who understood changes needed to be made, but not to such a harsh degree.
If that same car manufacturer came round my house and attempted to swap my Mercedes engine for a lawnmower engine I would shoot them in my drive.
It's not their game. It's my game. I have bought it. They have sold it.
I also pay them extra to maintain a service. Tech support, lag free servers and additional content.
They accept this money in advance and they are contractually bound to fulfill their end of the bargain. Just like in any other service industry, if they welch on their end of the deal, not only am I unlikely to further use their service but I am entitled and capable of recovering my money which they have recieved under false pretence.
No he doesn't.
The game promises online play on the box, and if it doesn't provide it, he is in breach of the contract of sale. False advertising is a civil offense in North America and a criminal offence in the EU. A game developer can go to prison for that kind of behaviour.
Compensation is very easy to get. Everybody pays by credit card.
In order for your credit Card company to refund you your money, you should provide them with a copy or your request for a refund, and a copy of any receipt of that request provided by the company.
An email to tech support and a copy of the auto response was all I needed to get me my refund for my total multiple COH subsciptions. ($90) I would also have been well within my rights to return the box to my place of purchase and get a full refund too.
They don't have any "right" to my money.
This analogy is a bit off. While I havent played SWG myself from what I've heard it sounds like what SOE did to SWG is like paying for a Mercedes and after months of putting gas money and upkeep to maintain your Mercedes, Benz comes and reposesses your car and tears out the body, engine, interior and even changes it to take high performace F-1 Racing gas instead of unleaded gas. Then they send it back to you. Now you can choose to cancel your payements for the Mercedes but all that money you spent on it would be wasted. On the other hand many people wouldnt want to continue with the Mercedes because it was changed into something that they didnt like (perhaps the newer Mercedes would be slower or uglier, or perhaps have less features).
This is a very iffy issue, while developers technically do have the right to modify their game (since there are no laws stating that mmorpg makers cannot patch their games, or revamp) it is not only unethical but a bad business move as well. Some changes are good, but I believe before any changes are implemented (even slight ones) they should be run on a test server to see how the community reacts and only be implemented if a good majority of the people agree with the changes. Even then, changes that involve a character wipe and/or a complete rehaul of the engine and gameplay mechanics should come with compensation for any player who does not agree with the changes, whether it be a refund for all the months they played starting when then update was announced, free additional months, ingame items, or a complete refund of the game and monthly fees.
While expecting a full refund is unrealstic, the companies should at least offer some compensation to the people who put time into a game that eventually disappeared and in its place a completely different beast.
-Shojin
I actually don't see how changing the game is unethical. I think the approach taken was a grey ethical area, but the actual changes or desire to change was not unethical. I actually gave NGE three months in live (I could never get on the test server) and then left.
-=ZG=-
-=ZG=-
I voted yes. They have the right.
It comes with some responsibility as well. Long term payors, those who pay 6 months or a year at a time, should be given the option for a refund. They contracted with the vendor for a specific service and the changing of that service constitutes a breech of contract. Therefore, they should be able to retrieve the unused portion of their subscription.
Also, SOE needs to remember what I always tell my children. You will have to live with the consequences of your actions.
SWG lost a huge portion of the community. They may have made it up in new sales, but wouldn't it have been better to keep the customers they had and simply add to the customer base?
My two cents.
-=ZG=-
-=ZG=-
They most certainly have the right to change it, just as they have the right to watch it fail miserably and backfire when they alienate their long-term customers in a greedy, ill-fated attempt to snatch some subscribers from the most popular MMORPG.
Just like I have the right to cancel my SWG accounts and subscribe to World of Warcraft, a right I exercised a few weeks ago and am quite satisfied with.
Good luck to SWG and SOE, because they are going to need it. The only way they will successfully attract and retain new customers is copying the other majorly successful MMO, Guild Wars, and go with the subscription-fee-less model, as they are apparently planning to do, as reported by PC Gamer in this month's issue.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Baff, tell that to the players of Earth and Beyond. One day they woke up, and the game was gonna be cancelled a few weeks later. Any and every MMO has the same end in its future, no matter what you think. They will all end, one day. And when they do, some players will stand there, wondering where their game went.
You think the company have some obligation to give those players all their money back? Sorry, but no. They are renting time in an amusement park, monthly rate. When the park closes, they still had all those hours of fun. You pay for the time you play... in advance. When that time is up, you have no right to get your money back.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
i have played SWG since 2 months after launch, i lived through the PRE-cu, the CU, and the NGE. Does the NGE help? yes newbies elder players NO. They have driven the elder players to either quit. or just not want to play. The CU was GREAT! ya it took us a few to get used to it but once we did it was great ya it took some getting used to but once we did, WOW! that made it fun, no more of this we need buffs crap and such that almost took away the fun of the game. Then they give us this NGE and the game suddenly turns to crap and it just wasnt what it used to be.
i have more to say but i ranted enough.
no they dont have the right. you cant sell a customer a corvette, have them sign the title on it, then come back and repo the vette, smile at them, give them a kia , and tell them that that the payments are the same, but WE know know that they will like the kia better then the vette.
and there is a HUGE difference from changing, altering a game, and replacing it altogether, twice.
we arent even talking about major gam changing here, we are talking about game replacement, twice.
another example, your a wow player, next time you log on, your playing pirates, everything you accomplished in game for 3 years has been erased. all your uber loot has been made starter loot.noobs now start with what you have. and the devs are telling you that you are happier this way.
in the mean time there is a 300k subscription cancel/exodus, and the devs are going on tv using FUZZY math to represent their subscription numbers, or, outright say no comment. swg, is the game industry example of how not to run a mmo.
stay away from this one, it already blew, twice.
I replied "maybe". While they can change their product any way they see fit, the customers will decide if they want to buy it. If it is a crappy change, then expect crappy response.
I do believe they should have more customer input before deciding their action. Last decision they made lost customers that had many accounts. That means the older player base left..fed up with being left with something they no longer wished to support.
Yes, they have the right. It's their product.
What they don't have the right to do, however, is advertise falsely. Boxes, commercials, etc. They all need to be stripped of anything that pertains to the new game. They should not have released Trials of Obi Wan and emphasize goodies for Creature Handlers, only to take the entire profession out. At least that was refunded. Speaking of which, I also consider it false advertisement making people who had pre-paid continue to pay for this new game. They are not playing what they bought. Refunds should have been offered immediately.
So, yes, they have the right to do whatever they want. But, they don't have the right to lead the customer on and expect them to pay for something that they aren't getting.
And, even though I believe they have the right to change it, I also have the right to take my money elsewhere. And, that's exactly what I've done. And, anything under the umbrella of Lucas Arts or Sony is on lifetime boycott from me and probably others that I know due to word of mouth. And, I'm just one person, there are others who've done the same thing.
So, yes, Sony can do what it wants. But, they also have to deal with the fallout, because the consumer can also do what it wants.
I am with the consensus here that say Yes the Devs have a "right" to severely change the game after launch, BUT it would be Foolish for them to do so and they will significantly diminish their subscription potential by doing it.
I played from launch date through the first several months until the first Jedi was unlocked. Then other interests took me away from SWG and I was very glad because all my friends were so frustrated with what happened in the long run. I am glad I did not have to go through that.
zzzilladraw you are wrong and so are many others in this forum. You did not buy a physical product. You are renting the use of their Role Playing World to create a character and level it etc. You are not in any way buying the released version of the game (you bought ACCESS to it) and you accept the risk that they will make some changes. I agree with your philosophy that they have changed your Corvette into a Kia but technically you were Renting it not owning it.
@Large I bow to you.
You have the intelligence to see it like it is and a big pair of steel ones to actually come forward and say it. I agree with you almost completely. Keep up the good work and keep busting the whining little xploiters and hacks !
I had to vote no on this one. While you can say that technically they have a right to do whatever they want, the consumer has rights as well.
At the heart of the debate is whether an MMORPG is a game or a service. While you buy the game and expansions, you also pay a monthly fee to maintain access to that game. Playing an MMORPG involves a certain amount of trust on the part of the consumer that if they invest their time and money into playing a game they will advance and gain rewards and enjoyment in the future as their character develops. They are assuming that the basic game mechanics will remain in place so that they eventually see the rewards of their efforts, both time and money. If it becomes accepted practice that the basic game mechanics can be completely overhauled at any time with little or no warning it becomes very hard for that trust to develop. Sure a game will change, that's what makes online games so interesting and dynamic but a sudden overhaul of the underlying game mechanics and structure is basically exchanging one game for another and that is unacceptable.
I think the industry reaction to SWG may play a significant role in how MMORPGs develop in the future. I'm encouraged by the fact that the response by most people involved with the industry is so negative, that it's not just disgruntled players that are upset. SOE/LucasArts engaged in some very deceptive practices involving the CU and apparently the NGE as well. Requesting player feedback on proposed changes to existing systems for months while they worked on a completely different system is fraud. Shutting down SWG and restarting with SWG2 would have been the better way to go but of course they would have lost those subscription fees in the interim so instead they baited the playerbase with promises of improvements then switched the game. Player correspondents volunteered their time and effort to gather player feedback that was totally ignored because SOE/LucasArts would not tell the playerbase what they were planning.
I'd like to know how many players paid for multiple months at a time, I know I was paying in 3 month blocks for my main account so I was still subscribed for a couple months after the CU because I had prepaid for that long. It would be interesting to see how much that affected their numbers of vets sticking around for a while at least.
I played SWG for almost 2 years from about a month after launch until the CU, with a second account for the second year. My husband played from day one until the CU. Reading the two producer letters I was struck by how familiar they sounded. We heard the exact same claims over and over and instead of seeing the results they're claiming to be working for we got the CU and then the NGE. All I could do was laugh and not believe a single word of it. It will take some serious evidence of change on the part of SOE and LucasArts before I'll ever have anything to do with either one again.
Unfortunately, of course developers have the right to completely alter the game after it has been released, however, they also have a responsibility to the paying customers to consider any such changes and enter a real consultation with the fans before such a massive change.
SOE and Lucasarts show a blatent disrespect and lack of experience and foresight in there decision to fundamentally change there product without any real consultation with the fans and customers. The long term future of the game is no longer important. The long term damage to LA and SOE is something they will now have to absorb. There are always people who will overlook what they did and continue to line the pockets of these companies. SOE and LA have damaged confidence in there products with the consumers and taught the other development companies a valuable lesson that will hopefully never be repeated. CONSULT AND LISTEN to the CUSTOMER.
For myself, SOE and LA products are now completely off limits, I will not touch them again. I am sure that there are 1000's of others out there that feel the same way and it cna only benefit the rivals to SOE and LA.
While i do hope for SWG to fail miserably just to completely destroy any credibility LA and SOE have left, I am looking to the next generation of games to spend my money on.
SOE and LA are a disgrace. Pure and simple.
I voted no!
A developer (in my opinion) doesnt have the rights to dramaticly change the game, they should release it then as a second version, that works aside of the original, and not remove the original game for the "enhanced" version.
With the topic SWG, i've played it for more then 2 years, but after the CU al lot of my friends left the game, because (and they were right) SWg had it's own combat system, as no MMORPG has seen before... With the best crafting system, the greatest community, the diversaty with combat professions, and a awsome entertainer system.. After the CU we had "combat levels", which is a more common system all over the MMO's, and with the comming of the NGE, there was no idenitity anymore. It was/is now a clone between EQ2/WoW/CoH and a tiny bit of the old system left.
I say: What we have played, was the best MMO system ever!! Maybe it was unballanced, but everything else made up for it.. And what the MMO's these days misses, including the SWG:NGE is:
CREATURE HANDLERS and BIO ENIGNEERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
You can put the noise right where the sun don't shine. There is NO doubt in MY former military mind that YOU are an SOE employee. NO customer in their right mind would expect some BS company like SOE and LA to OVER HAUL the game, COMPLETELY change it after you bought the product. To think otherwise is stupid. I hope you lose your fricking job.
Just like the post above if you make a car with a lawnmower engine in it and you buy it that is YOUR problem. If you buy a car with a normal engine and then when you bring it to the dealer for service he puts a lawn mower engine in it and calls it an ungrade ... that is BS.
Not being able to manage 32 professions is BS too. I don't like the BS and I don't like smoke you peopole at SOE and LA are blowing. You look for ANY BS excuse to try to justiy ... that's right "JUSTIFY" what you are doing. Well let me tell you somehting son..... people aren't that stupid.
Another thing moron..... all we wanted was the bugs fixed and content added. Yes there were some people that complained about how unbalanced professions were 1v1 in a duel but too fricking bad ... this is an MMO and professions can not be ballanced like that in an MMO. IF soe and LA had half a fricking brain they would have used the IN GAME email system or regular email, sent out an email that required them to select an option wich generated a response and auto deleted the email from their Inbox or find another way so they cant forward or resubmit their response.
Besides fool .... SOE and LA admited in an interview this was ALL about making more money. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. NO ONE asked for the CU .... NO ONE asked for the NGE .... the playerbase DID ask for bug fixes and content .... NOT FRICKIN REVAMPS!!!!!!!!!!! AND NOT A COMPLETE GAME CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server