I largely disagree with just about everything you said Anofalye.
Seeing stats is a vital aspect of EVERY successfull MMO. Think of any MMO which succeed by hiding stats. None.
Just because something hasn't been done is no indicator that it shouldn't be done. The ideal behind removing the stats and numbers is to make progressing feel less artificial. It should still be noticible to some extent, but truer to its fantasy roots (i.e. how many HP did Gandalf have? what were the stats on Aragorn's sword? What was Drizzt's sword skill?)
He brings the immersion...yes immersion CAN be a nice edge, but again it is secondary. What bring peoples back is that PROGRESSION, the stats he want to hide! If progression was not so much of a deal, than "End Game" would not be such a big deal in any game.
The "End Game" is such a big deal because of the focus on it. I don't think a MMORPG, a game that should be ever-evolving and have no real 'end', should have an 'end game'. It should slowly progress and change as time goes by.
But no matter the game, there is always a large number of peoples who complains/ask/hope about the End Game. Heck, I think Brad McQuaid must be tired to hear me talk about raiding nonsense that should not be applied on everyone. I also believe that part of his team and SoE team understand what I say and believe like I do, that the future belong in the progression of a GROUPING or SOLOING end game.
Because of the focus on the 'end game'. Many MMORPGs (particularly EQ-esque level-based games) have levels you must fight through before you get to the 'good part'. Why not make every level the good part? - and while you're at it remove artificial things like 'levels'.
A real time feeling is a bonus, an action setting(FPS-like) is a flaw. Game based turn would be possible if well though and not waiting on others, GalCiv II overwhelming release is a proof that GBT is far from dead, and if DDO turn away from it origin, the fanbase only grow stronger and want it more badly than ever.
I'm guessing you're talking about turn-based combat? I've never liked that, personally, but if people like it I see no reason why not to include it in a MMORPG. However, I greatly prefer FPS-style combat. Mount&Blade (although not MMO) has an amazing combat system.
As to be able to affect your environment, within acceptable limits I agree.
I think there should be no limits. NPCs should affect the environment, PCs should affect the environment. After a year or so I'd like to look at the game-world and see nearly every aspect changed.
A HARD game is definitely something the majority of players want.
I don't want a hard game, I want a fun and immersive game, and something different than the current state of MMOGs.
there's a reason its called FPS(hooter) and not FPM(eelle). If you've ever played the Kings' Field RPGs you'll know what I mean. Other than that a very insightful article. An just to stir the post I'll post a solution for Permadeath from another post I answered awhile back.
Yes to PvP and Yes to Permadeath. The need for a money sink for a viable economy is obvoius, why then is the need for a character sink for a viable society not seen as an asset? The problem lies in the implementation not the idea.
Your born into the world feet first and whole ready to set off on your journeys your spend a few weeks gaining experience and exploring and you feel your ready to take on greater challenges. You head out to Gullimans' Canyon. As you finally clear the pass thru the mountain you are promptly waylaid by a total stranger that incapacitates you in three strokes then hits you with a killing blow before you can port back the ressurection tree. As your shakeing with rage over this senseless attack you watch the PKer loot you, which he could have done without killing you, and you vow to never play the game again. And that about sums up why people hate Permadeath.
It doesn't need to be this way it just is. The first thing is that character decay (aging) need to be in the game from launch. Since it is a built in feature from day one no one who plays will question it, in fact most will defend it as something that makes the game special. IMO propelry done aging should take between 18 and 36 months (real time) to fully render a character null. Also there should be a tipping point where the character losse stats. You don't even need to kill them you could just retire them, allowing the player to use the toon in a non-combat role. The second thing is that Permadeath should be placed in the control of the player. I'm not saying they can turn it off or stop aging just that no action by another player could result in permanent death. THe best way I can think of would be to give the player one or more useful abilties that drain a hidden cache of non- renewable or slowly (real slowly) replenishing permadeath points. These abilities should not be available to new players and should clearly indicate that they drain this permadeath pool. Any ability that would require more pd points than are available would execute regardless of the remaining amount of points. Once the pool is empty it should no longer replenish if that is your choice of implementation. There should be no indicator that the player has exhausted his pool. Death does not occur when the player uses the last of his pool points but rather when the player next dies.
Do you want to win? Are you willing to risk death?
I think character progression in either levels or skill levels or other character abilities is important to some players. I feel like it is important to me. In a really long running game, it is important to have some form of character decay. Without this, the player base continually gets more and more top-heavy making new players feel out of place and permanently behind. Just look at the number of people who insist on not playing older MMORPGs (even ones that have undergone graphics updates) to see how important this can be.
I'd like to see a system where characters aged over time. Players would typically have a few children (either born or adopted) that would typically have the same last name as the original character. The children would automatically gain a few skill levels in skills that the parent was good in to represent the parent teaching the child. Character aging would be very gradual over time with a long period of slight degradation. Both the parent and the child would be extremely viable characters to play for a long time period. The child would start off as an alt and gradually become the main as the old main got older.
I think EVE got it close to right with becoming very good in a skill not taking forever, and getting very good in many skills taking a long time. I would refine it so that even after getting very good, there is still room for improvement, just at much slower rates. A wide variety of skills and character aging would prevent players from knowing everything.
Overall, I think the article has some very good points. I disagree with the first person view because it feels like having blinders on which tends to make me get lost easily. I'm perfectly content to skip voice chat. The naturalness is countered by the poorer immersion.
Originally posted by blackmoore The question I was asking basically was: since the dawn of mmorpgs, why does traditional everquest-likes games can get nice graphics, minimal lag and a huge player base while games with innovative ideas such as the ones posted in this articles are always done by small teams, with low fundings, and end up being ugly, laggy, have a small player base, and see delays after delays during their development? edit: I'm particularely talking about getting rid of the class-level-grind system, seeing no math on the screen, and changing the environement here.
Short answer: Innovation is not a guarantee of quality or fun.
Coming up with original, innovative ideas isn't that hard. Pretty much anyone can rattle of a list of ideas for an 'amazing' movie/game/novel. Everyone's creative to some degree - that's why books on writing screenplays and novels sell so well. The problem's certainly not a lack of ideas.
Problem is, a lot of ideas sound good on paper (or on a forum) but they just don't work well in reality. Permadeath is a great example of this. It sounds like a great way to make games more exciting, challenging and realistic. It is - on paper. In reality, it's so problematic that it won't work effectively in an MMORPG. With so many ways for a character to die which are beyond a players control (bugs, crashes, exploits, disconnects, lag etc), people would become frustrated with the game. It could also damage the revenue model of the game. A player who lost a character after several months play may just cancel their subscription rather than start again from scratch.
Even if an innovative idea can be implemented successfully, there's no guarantee it'll interest lots of people. Most gamers aren't mush-brained dullards only interested in playing endless clones. They want new things. Just look at how old genres die out and new ones emerge. The thing is, most people aren't going to spend their money on a game that they don't want to play, no matter how innovative it is. Serving a niche market can be viable in some industries, like publishing and music, but it can be a recipe for business suicide in the games industry.
A lot of the MMORPGs with very innovative ideas are serving a niche area of the market. That's why they get low funding. Nobody sane is going to plow $60 million into a game with limited appeal and, consequently, a limited subscriber pool. They end up being poor games due to a combination of low funding and lack of quality dev talent. Sometimes they've just tried to do far more than they were ever really capable of achieving.
Getting rid of classes and the level grind sounds good but it raises a big question - How do you handle character progression? Most people's answer would be to use a skill system but that's only a partial solution which doesn't even touch the big problem. It gives players more freedom to make their characters unique, which can only be a good thing, but it does nothing substantial about the grind problem. All it does is take one big grind for levels and turn it into several smaller grinds for skill ranks. It's just an illusion of change.
Character progression is at the core of MMORPGs. There's absolutely no point in having a persistent character if they never change. Without change, you may as well just have a screenname floating over a generic avatar like in a FPS game. If you're going to have character progression, then you need a gameplay mechanic to facilitate that progression. That's the heart of the grind - what you need to do to improve your character - and every MMORPG with character progression has it.
Even EVE's real-time skill gain is a form of grind, it's just a very non-traditional one. You're just grinding time instead of XP to improve your avatar. It's low visibility because you can get on with other stuff but it's still there. It's also a cunning business strategy because it ties character progression to subscription length and helps ensure subscriber retention.
If you have character progression, then you need some way of communicating that progression to the player. Without the math on screen, that communication becomes much harder and far more abstract. The math is an important way of communicating visually intangible information to the player, such as how nourishing the food they've cooked is. It bridges the gap between player and avatar.
This guy says deadlines need to be made but, if you ask me the developer should be the ones who say when the deadilnes, some MMORPG's ask the players to test for them and they find the problem that's one job in itself. I hope the future can change the XP grind thing and make something more fun then watching a bar fill up.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
It is true that just saying get rid of levels and have skill based systems is only a partial solution. Characters do need to progress, but why does it have to be about how they progress numerically compared to other players (and based mostly on the amount of TIME they put in). What about a game that provided enough possibilities that players could set their own goals and then progress towards them. Many of these goals should compliment one another, and some, of course, should conflict, but not necessarily in the normal bashing on each other with more or less powerful stats.
Perma-death can be handeled quite simply. If someone is an agressor then they in turn can receive terminal aggressive action from those they have aggressed against. Of course this means that those that have been aggressed against will have to themselves engage in regressive action to retalliate. So it is basically automatically regulated through participation. Someone who doesn't want to engage in agressive gameplay at all is (relatively) safe, though you could decide if they can be attacked/looted but remain alive no matter what.
Then it truly becomes the players decision. Sure they can stay out of the major conflicts, but then how do they hope to really acheive anything. In this way, those that take the risks gain gain the greatest rewards, but at least there is a consequence so players will have to have real reasons to put themselves out there like that. They won't just attack for no reason or soon they will be at risk of destruction from many other players at any time. They will be loosing characters right and left if they don't manage it well and make wise decisions about whom they will attack.
It's fun to think about the future of MMOGs and all the cool things that could be in furture MMOGs. I really liked the articles and I agree with the Author on almost everything...everything 'cept permadeath (I thought we drove a steak through the heart of this awful idea, but I guess not.) and fps (only?) pov.
Immersion should be the watchword for MMOG developers and creating more and more immersive environments should be job number 1, but that's hardly the case. Hehe, "nextgen" MMOGs can't even compete with lastgen single player games in terms of overall quality and immersion.
While I agree in principle that making a FPS style combat would create more immersion, Im still against it. Every rpg / mmorpg Ive played was all about my toon. I never however felt or wanted to feel like I actually was that toon. I could live my dreams out through my toon despite any physical disabilities I may have.
FPS players tend to be the toon in the game. They in essence are the toon they play, skills and all.
Ultimately it makes gear useless as well. It comes down to who can hold the cursor better, click faster, and doesnt have arthritis in their hand from playing 3 billion hours of Space Invaders. Why would I want to play such a game if my time and effort to gather the best gear are useless against a younger player with better reflexes ?
Ok, I don't like self advertising, but because we are still (hopefully not for long) a so called fan project, and because i want to give hope for all true roleplayers, i invite you to visit our homepage to round up the already existing hungarian and german community.
We are planning and making a game, where you will find most of the described features in this article and much more.
Please provide us with your constructive ideas and criticism and show your interest in a real roleplaying game and help us to impress our possible sponsors and investors.
Comments
I largely disagree with just about everything you said Anofalye.
Just because something hasn't been done is no indicator that it shouldn't be done. The ideal behind removing the stats and numbers is to make progressing feel less artificial. It should still be noticible to some extent, but truer to its fantasy roots (i.e. how many HP did Gandalf have? what were the stats on Aragorn's sword? What was Drizzt's sword skill?)The "End Game" is such a big deal because of the focus on it. I don't think a MMORPG, a game that should be ever-evolving and have no real 'end', should have an 'end game'. It should slowly progress and change as time goes by.Because of the focus on the 'end game'. Many MMORPGs (particularly EQ-esque level-based games) have levels you must fight through before you get to the 'good part'. Why not make every level the good part? - and while you're at it remove artificial things like 'levels'.I'm guessing you're talking about turn-based combat? I've never liked that, personally, but if people like it I see no reason why not to include it in a MMORPG. However, I greatly prefer FPS-style combat. Mount&Blade (although not MMO) has an amazing combat system.I think there should be no limits. NPCs should affect the environment, PCs should affect the environment. After a year or so I'd like to look at the game-world and see nearly every aspect changed.I don't want a hard game, I want a fun and immersive game, and something different than the current state of MMOGs.there's a reason its called FPS(hooter) and not FPM(eelle). If you've ever played the Kings' Field RPGs you'll know what I mean. Other than that a very insightful article. An just to stir the post I'll post a solution for Permadeath from another post I answered awhile back.
Yes to PvP and Yes to Permadeath. The need for a money sink for a viable economy is obvoius, why then is the need for a character sink for a viable society not seen as an asset? The problem lies in the implementation not the idea.
Your born into the world feet first and whole ready to set off on your journeys your spend a few weeks gaining experience and exploring and you feel your ready to take on greater challenges. You head out to Gullimans' Canyon. As you finally clear the pass thru the mountain you are promptly waylaid by a total stranger that incapacitates you in three strokes then hits you with a killing blow before you can port back the ressurection tree. As your shakeing with rage over this senseless attack you watch the PKer loot you, which he could have done without killing you, and you vow to never play the game again. And that about sums up why people hate Permadeath.
It doesn't need to be this way it just is. The first thing is that character decay (aging) need to be in the game from launch. Since it is a built in feature from day one no one who plays will question it, in fact most will defend it as something that makes the game special. IMO propelry done aging should take between 18 and 36 months (real time) to fully render a character null. Also there should be a tipping point where the character losse stats. You don't even need to kill them you could just retire them, allowing the player to use the toon in a non-combat role. The second thing is that Permadeath should be placed in the control of the player. I'm not saying they can turn it off or stop aging just that no action by another player could result in permanent death. THe best way I can think of would be to give the player one or more useful abilties that drain a hidden cache of non- renewable or slowly (real slowly) replenishing permadeath points. These abilities should not be available to new players and should clearly indicate that they drain this permadeath pool. Any ability that would require more pd points than are available would execute regardless of the remaining amount of points. Once the pool is empty it should no longer replenish if that is your choice of implementation. There should be no indicator that the player has exhausted his pool. Death does not occur when the player uses the last of his pool points but rather when the player next dies.
Do you want to win? Are you willing to risk death?
I think character progression in either levels or skill levels or other character abilities is important to some players. I feel like it is important to me. In a really long running game, it is important to have some form of character decay. Without this, the player base continually gets more and more top-heavy making new players feel out of place and permanently behind. Just look at the number of people who insist on not playing older MMORPGs (even ones that have undergone graphics updates) to see how important this can be.
I'd like to see a system where characters aged over time. Players would typically have a few children (either born or adopted) that would typically have the same last name as the original character. The children would automatically gain a few skill levels in skills that the parent was good in to represent the parent teaching the child. Character aging would be very gradual over time with a long period of slight degradation. Both the parent and the child would be extremely viable characters to play for a long time period. The child would start off as an alt and gradually become the main as the old main got older.
I think EVE got it close to right with becoming very good in a skill not taking forever, and getting very good in many skills taking a long time. I would refine it so that even after getting very good, there is still room for improvement, just at much slower rates. A wide variety of skills and character aging would prevent players from knowing everything.
Overall, I think the article has some very good points. I disagree with the first person view because it feels like having blinders on which tends to make me get lost easily. I'm perfectly content to skip voice chat. The naturalness is countered by the poorer immersion.
Short answer: Innovation is not a guarantee of quality or fun.
Coming up with original, innovative ideas isn't that hard. Pretty much anyone can rattle of a list of ideas for an 'amazing' movie/game/novel. Everyone's creative to some degree - that's why books on writing screenplays and novels sell so well. The problem's certainly not a lack of ideas.
Problem is, a lot of ideas sound good on paper (or on a forum) but they just don't work well in reality. Permadeath is a great example of this. It sounds like a great way to make games more exciting, challenging and realistic. It is - on paper. In reality, it's so problematic that it won't work effectively in an MMORPG. With so many ways for a character to die which are beyond a players control (bugs, crashes, exploits, disconnects, lag etc), people would become frustrated with the game. It could also damage the revenue model of the game. A player who lost a character after several months play may just cancel their subscription rather than start again from scratch.
Even if an innovative idea can be implemented successfully, there's no guarantee it'll interest lots of people. Most gamers aren't mush-brained dullards only interested in playing endless clones. They want new things. Just look at how old genres die out and new ones emerge. The thing is, most people aren't going to spend their money on a game that they don't want to play, no matter how innovative it is. Serving a niche market can be viable in some industries, like publishing and music, but it can be a recipe for business suicide in the games industry.
A lot of the MMORPGs with very innovative ideas are serving a niche area of the market. That's why they get low funding. Nobody sane is going to plow $60 million into a game with limited appeal and, consequently, a limited subscriber pool. They end up being poor games due to a combination of low funding and lack of quality dev talent. Sometimes they've just tried to do far more than they were ever really capable of achieving.
Getting rid of classes and the level grind sounds good but it raises a big question - How do you handle character progression? Most people's answer would be to use a skill system but that's only a partial solution which doesn't even touch the big problem. It gives players more freedom to make their characters unique, which can only be a good thing, but it does nothing substantial about the grind problem. All it does is take one big grind for levels and turn it into several smaller grinds for skill ranks. It's just an illusion of change.
Character progression is at the core of MMORPGs. There's absolutely no point in having a persistent character if they never change. Without change, you may as well just have a screenname floating over a generic avatar like in a FPS game. If you're going to have character progression, then you need a gameplay mechanic to facilitate that progression. That's the heart of the grind - what you need to do to improve your character - and every MMORPG with character progression has it.
Even EVE's real-time skill gain is a form of grind, it's just a very non-traditional one. You're just grinding time instead of XP to improve your avatar. It's low visibility because you can get on with other stuff but it's still there. It's also a cunning business strategy because it ties character progression to subscription length and helps ensure subscriber retention.
If you have character progression, then you need some way of communicating that progression to the player. Without the math on screen, that communication becomes much harder and far more abstract. The math is an important way of communicating visually intangible information to the player, such as how nourishing the food they've cooked is. It bridges the gap between player and avatar.
This guy says deadlines need to be made but, if you ask me the developer should be the ones who say when the deadilnes, some MMORPG's ask the players to test for them and they find the problem that's one job in itself. I hope the future can change the XP grind thing and make something more fun then watching a bar fill up.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
It is true that just saying get rid of levels and have skill based systems is only a partial solution. Characters do need to progress, but why does it have to be about how they progress numerically compared to other players (and based mostly on the amount of TIME they put in). What about a game that provided enough possibilities that players could set their own goals and then progress towards them. Many of these goals should compliment one another, and some, of course, should conflict, but not necessarily in the normal bashing on each other with more or less powerful stats.
Perma-death can be handeled quite simply. If someone is an agressor then they in turn can receive terminal aggressive action from those they have aggressed against. Of course this means that those that have been aggressed against will have to themselves engage in regressive action to retalliate. So it is basically automatically regulated through participation. Someone who doesn't want to engage in agressive gameplay at all is (relatively) safe, though you could decide if they can be attacked/looted but remain alive no matter what.
Then it truly becomes the players decision. Sure they can stay out of the major conflicts, but then how do they hope to really acheive anything. In this way, those that take the risks gain gain the greatest rewards, but at least there is a consequence so players will have to have real reasons to put themselves out there like that. They won't just attack for no reason or soon they will be at risk of destruction from many other players at any time. They will be loosing characters right and left if they don't manage it well and make wise decisions about whom they will attack.
IronOre - Forging the Future
It's fun to think about the future of MMOGs and all the cool things that could be in furture MMOGs. I really liked the articles and I agree with the Author on almost everything...everything 'cept permadeath (I thought we drove a steak through the heart of this awful idea, but I guess not.) and fps (only?) pov.
Immersion should be the watchword for MMOG developers and creating more and more immersive environments should be job number 1, but that's hardly the case. Hehe, "nextgen" MMOGs can't even compete with lastgen single player games in terms of overall quality and immersion.
I agree with everything except the FPS part.
While I agree in principle that making a FPS style combat would create more immersion, Im still against it. Every rpg / mmorpg Ive played was all about my toon. I never however felt or wanted to feel like I actually was that toon. I could live my dreams out through my toon despite any physical disabilities I may have.
FPS players tend to be the toon in the game. They in essence are the toon they play, skills and all.
Ultimately it makes gear useless as well. It comes down to who can hold the cursor better, click faster, and doesnt have arthritis in their hand from playing 3 billion hours of Space Invaders. Why would I want to play such a game if my time and effort to gather the best gear are useless against a younger player with better reflexes ?
Ok, I don't like self advertising, but because we are still (hopefully not for long) a so called fan project, and because i want to give hope for all true roleplayers, i invite you to visit our homepage to round up the already existing hungarian and german community.
We are planning and making a game, where you will find most of the described features in this article and much more.
Please provide us with your constructive ideas and criticism and show your interest in a real roleplaying game and help us to impress our possible sponsors and investors.
http://3dmagicbox.com
http://gamershirtstore.com