Rewamped combat?

Exekile

Hello!

First of all, I did actually play SWG for about 3-4 months just about when the game was released. Though during that time I wasn't really hyper active, and I don't remember much from it.

Now I remember hearing ALOT about combat rewamp, and how it changed the game for the worse.
What exactly did change? I'd like to hear the real story about what changed, and why people are so mad about it?

Thank you,
Niklas

ridenar

they took a game that was half playable and made it not at all playable.

 

Exekile

Uhm, thanks for the answer I guess, but first of all I wanted an indepth answer, explaining what changes were made to make people like you think it is unplayable.

Second, I already know some people think it's bad, unplayable and so on. I thought that showed in my original post. If you're going to post in this thread, post with a concrete answer, not "Ahh this game sucks, because they changed it and now it suuuuucks!"

Anyone else, please feel welcome to answer.
Thank you,
Niklas

nthnaoun

Bear with me here please.

Pre-NGE the combat was turn based. Meaning there were timers on each attack and how often you attacked. This allowed you to use a large number of skills, therefore giving you more time to do things strategically. With the NGE you have a twitch based system where you left click on the ability you want to use to que it and then right click to execute the move, all the while trying to aim and maneuver at the same time. There is no auto-attack and no auto target. So combat is much more complicated. Both systems require strategy, but different styles of strategy. As I said, Pre-NGE strategy was figuring out what styles are best in the given situation. While the NGE strategy was similar, but very limited in choices since combat doesn't last long and it takes more effort to pick a style.

I won't tell you which I think is better, but this was a basic foundation for others to build on. I hope others will allow you to make up your own mind as I have.

deggilator

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Originally posted by Exekile
Now I remember hearing ALOT about combat rewamp, and how it changed the game for the worse.
What exactly did change? I'd like to hear the real story about what changed, and why people are so mad about it?

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The profession system changed completely. Now, there's 9 classes that gain xp and levels similar to the traditional MMORPGs (max level is 90). Some professions like rangers or CHs do not exist anymore in any form. You are restricted to your class, unlike the old profession system. Each class has a quite limited number of abilities which you should acquire by level 30 and after that you only get upgrades to those abilities. Currently, there is a serious lack of diversity among combat classes.

The gameplay style has changed as well. Camera is locked behind your character (or you can switch to FPS-mode). No auto-locking, you have to target and shoot opponents in the same fashion as in FPS games. However, the mobs do lock on you :P You cannot dodge enemy fire, but moving grants you an avoidance percentage.

For more detailed info, you can check their web site.

As for why people are so angry about it (and quite justifiably), it's because they transformed the game into something completely different. It's no longer the SWG they enjoyed and subscribed to, but turned into a completely different game. As to this, they effectively alienated their old player base and caused all this uproar.

freebirdpat

I think Exekile may also be talking about the Combat Upgrade/Update/Revamp.

There were essentially two changes to the SWG game. One was the Combat Upgade, where the entire combat system was reworked, that was released April of 2005 IIRC. Back in November 2005, they scrapped that whole system and did a complete overhaul of the original game.

I know many that said the Combat Upgrade was a change for the worse for SWG.

digriz

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Originally posted by Exekile
Uhm, thanks for the answer I guess, but first of all I wanted an indepth answer, explaining what changes were made to make people like you think it is unplayable. Second, I already know some people think it's bad, unplayable and so on. I thought that showed in my original post. If you're going to post in this thread, post with a concrete answer, not "Ahh this game sucks, because they changed it and now it suuuuucks!"Anyone else, please feel welcome to answer.
Thank you,
Niklas

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It occured to me as you asked for an indepth answer you may be from LA or SOE, and then it occured to me that you may be George Lucas. So, if my latter theory is correct, all i have to say to you is 'why do wookies yell like tarzan when they are swinging?' (and not in the Austin Powers sense, cos that'd be wrong) (although Chewy spends a lot of time away from home, and his wife must get lonely)

Dramhail

Niklas / Exekile wrote, "why people are so mad about it?"

I've given this a lot of thought, and I think this can be answered a number of ways.

Players are upset about loss of previous game efforts. Some had played since launch, and NGE literally wiped out up to 29 months (June '03 to Nov. '05) worth of gameplay effort... especially painful for those in the 23 removed professions. Yes, SWGDev tried to make the conversions equal, but it was no equal exchange. It could not be, with the game design changing from skill-based to level-based / point-and-click, twitch-based combat.

I can't speak from experience the disappointment the players of Jedi must have felt. Granted, that system was out of control... but it was a natural occurrence from the lack of endgame in the pre-NGE system. For clarity, nothing I've read suggests any further endgame has been added post-NGE.

It also wiped out that same 29 month-old player economy. With no item decay, and questionable post-conversion stats, formerlly well crafted or hard won items are now a moot point. It's also important to note, there seems to be no hope for improvement in the near-to-mid future. The NGE game model seems fundamentally incompatible with the cooperative community that existed before.

Then of course, there's the way the NGE was handled. There had been no warning, no preparation. No test servers, no gradual roll-out... And the timing of the NGE in regards to the last expansion left people very concerned.

These sweeping changes were not applied in cooperation with the community, it felt as though they were done in spite of the community.

And now we have the self-perpetuating system we see today. What minor accomplishments there are to be had are difficult to enjoy with such low server populations for company.

Ultimately, I feel most of the unhappiest former players are feeling betrayed. It's a specific kind of betrayal. Even with problems of the CU (1st *minor* revamp) players felt there was hope for the future of SWG. Yes, a profession's revamp might be pushed off one more month... but you could take temporary solace in a different profession, or immerse yourself in the community, or side-track into some crafting, any of the other pre-NGE working systems.

I and others I've spoken to feel those 30 months of hope and good faith from the playerbase could not have been repaid more cruelly.

azhrarn

O.O

Dig, you just made me spew my Dew.  Bad man.

Seriously though, George Lucas wouldn't post on MMORPG.com undercover like that.  He's George Lucas, by god, and he's got the ego to match the success of his early achievements.  A post by George Lucas to we, the no-longer-so-adoring fans, might read more like this...

I'm George Lucas.

Please, stop grovelling.  Wait, okay, while you're down there... right.  Now why don't you ingrates love Star Wars Galaxies?  Is there something wrong with you people?  It's Star Wars!  You LOVE this stuff.  Were you all that dissapointed because you couldn't play Jar Jar?  I know, he's my favorite too.  I told them to make Gungans a player species, but they didn't listen. 

Stop crying.  It will all be okay if you just renew your subscriptions. 

G.L.

The Man.  The Myth.  The Creative Genious.

Dramhail

I keep thinking of more.

It will be difficult to win these former players back. If such disappointment were possible once, it can happen again.

If IF there were a way to recoup from this fiasco, it would take something like the following:

1. Server consolidation, with FREE character transfers. Why SOE charged $30 per transfer I never understood. If it was a gating tactic, this could be achieved by an escalating cost... (1st move of the data is free, 2nd move of same is $30, 3rd is $60, etc.) However, consolidate the servers and be open to future servers if needed. Peak server loads of < 800 are just embarassing to the company and depressing for the player.

2. An increased development effort from SOE and/or LA. 70 developers are far too few, if that's including artists, asset/item balance, game mechanics and so on. I certainly hope Smed's 70 developers don't include QA. Don't assume this would be a poor investment... the hope for any future SW MMORPG rides on this.

3. When such sweeping changes are needed, set up an alternate server with said changes, and let the players decide which is better for the game. I'm not suggesting a vote or poll which might give slanted results. You could measure how many actively played characters exist on each game type, how frequently played, etc.

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Gah. It's difficult to remain objective.

Possibly the best case scenario would be to yank the license from SOE entirely, citing gross fiduciary negligence on the part of SOE re: the SW license... Then coordinate with NCSoft, BioWare/Pandemic or some other quality developer that demonstrates higher standards. I have to assume LA didn't allow SOE to play with this significant license without nearly 100% control remaining with LA. SOE had their chances, 2 1/2 years of chances. SOE's ivory tower approach has clearly been a 'disconnect' with 21st century MMORPG realities.

WSIMike

SOE suffers from an acute lack of consistency of vision, not to mention a mountain-sized dose of greed. They will and have, repeatedly, make blatant, sweeping changes to games under their umbrella regardless of what the player-base thinks.

The best part is when they turn around after people are upset and say, "But this is what the players asked for!" Love that one.

The worst of them, I'd say, is the one to SWG. That was just.. wow. I'll just say I'm glad I wasn't a veteran player of that game when that happened.

Why do they do this? They are committed to only one thing... $$$. If all those changes to SWG meant losing their existing player-base, to be replaced by a newer, but possibly larger one.. and this brought them more $$$, then the end more than justifies the means.

It's the same reason they're turning EQII into WoW. They want a piece of that pie Blizzard has mostly had all to themself. Do they care if it pisses off or loses players, who chose EQII because it *wasn't* WoW? Ahh... no.

It's the reason they charge $30 to transfer a character in SWG. They charge $50 in EQII, last I checked. Why? $$$.

Why did they embrace the RMT industry by implementing the whole Station Exchange thing for EQII? You got it.. $$$ They were less concerned with the issues RMT causes in-game than they were with the fact that they weren't getting a piece of the action.

In the end.. every ridiculous, blatant and ass-backwards thing SOE does to their games all traces back to one thing: $$$

And.. of course, they're a business. They're supposed to want to make more and more money.. I don't begrudge them that. However, their tactics and how they blatantly and repeatedly disregard their player-base to do so goes beyond the pale. And it's the reason why more and more people refuse to ever support them again. Once bitten, twice shy.

Heck.. who knows.. Maybe SOE will be a self-correcting problem. They'll keep mucking with every game they have in hopes of finding a "gem", lose all their players one game at a time in the process, not make enough to keep going and eventually fold. Thus... problem corrected :-).

Slickinfinit

They ruined about 1000 hours of my online investments into buildning my toons, every achievment I made was wiped out and made non-existent.  Examples: I spent a very long time unlocking Jedi pre-cu doing the village quests and no I did not comando grind, my crafter who was a bio-engineer was removed from the game and all his work nullified, 1000000000's of units of high-end crafting resources which took weeks at a time to harvest are pretty much useless stat wise because crafted items and stats were nerfed so bad now looted gear is better than crafted. In some cases where crafters can make good gear like armor the factor of decay removal has messed up the whole economy so now repeat buisness is very far inbetween.

They shrunk 30+ non-level based professions down to 9 "iconicy" ones which are level based just like every other game and are non-diverse so every Jedi is the same as every Jedi. 30+ professions u could intermix and create what u wanted was a stupid thing to take away and the fact they were not based on a number level made SWG apart from them all. Pre-cu did need profession balancing and some changes to the way a few things ran but no way was the CU or NGE needed. I lived with the CU because it was a mmo but there is no way in hell I am gonna call the gameplay beta test that is the new SWG's NGE a mmo.

Jedi being a starting profession realy just made me angry after I had to spend a real long time gettin my Jedi. THey took the alpha status away from Jedi and have basicly listened to the wrong bunch of carebears. WHen Jedi were feared and powerful that was star was but having Jedi as canon fodder is not.

SOE gets a F- in customer service and letting us know about changes, the NGE was quietly announced 2 weeks after an expansion was put on retail and thats just dishonest! I could literaly go on for hours on end and tell fact after fact about SOE being one of the worst pioneers in the mmo industry but just let their falling subscription numbers and lame attempts to defend their stupidity speak for themselves. I realy hope companys like SOE are a thing of the past in the coming years of gaming because we the consumer with buying power should get WHAT WE WANT NOT WHAT UR GONNA GIVE US!!!!!!

WSIMike

double post.. disregard