For the fun of it, I have started to write what the design doc of my dream MMO would be. That is quite some work, I am merely at 7 pages and I see it would prolly break the hundred...if I complete it.
Anyway, let's go play more games for now!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Jackcolt If you have a bad setup, you're toast. See my Sig for comparison.Besides, since there's really no reaction involved, it's the guy with the best setup vs. the other that wins if he just knows how to use it, which isn't difficult.
It's very obvious(sp?) you never did understand the strategy and was always Toast when you fought something that fought back, from that little statement right there.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by Jackcolt If you have a bad setup, you're toast. See my Sig for comparison.Besides, since there's really no reaction involved, it's the guy with the best setup vs. the other that wins if he just knows how to use it, which isn't difficult.
It's very obvious(sp?) you never did understand the strategy and was always Toast when you fought something that fought back, from that little statement right there.
LoL
You've obviously never played a game that has depth in combat. EvE might have a deep crafting and Economics system, but Combat isn't. It's about as deep as WoW in combat.
Originally posted by Jackcolt You've obviously never played a game that has depth in combat. EvE might have a deep crafting and Economics system, but Combat isn't. It's about as deep as WoW in combat.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by Jackcolt You've obviously never played a game that has depth in combat. EvE might have a deep crafting and Economics system, but Combat isn't. It's about as deep as WoW in combat.
EVE doesn't have a deep crafting system. Lmmfao
SWG has a deep crafting system.
Well I didn't get really into the crafting system then... yet I can tell that the combat system is noway near deep.
Stuff quoting you, people read through you so I can post this.
Here's a hint. You arn't ment to solo in Eve.... Combat is as tirseomse as cooking the same thing 10k times. But if you have other people wioh you, your not so bored anymore. Then when you come up against another group of people and conflict erupts. Sorry the Combat just got interesting. This also relates to the 'dungeons owned by players' concept. Eve has that, just the 'dungeon' is 0.0 space and players control it. When your soloing you can go down in flames from wrong stuff up. When in a group, your worth what you make yourself worth. Tackler, Tanker, Hearler(yeah ships can be healed persay) and the Grunts. Eve isn't Solo friendly, Eve is group orientated space war sim.
Plus Ragosch sounds like a CCP Dev half the time... Be causal Rag, your wierding me out with this profesional stuff...
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Perhaps. But the combat is still as deep as WoW. Group combat might be more fun than soloing, I can agree to that, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's utterly skillless, just like WoW.
Originally posted by Jackcolt Perhaps. But the combat is still as deep as WoW. Group combat might be more fun than soloing, I can agree to that, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's utterly skillless, just like WoW.
Ok. Now you're confusing me. The only thing in WoW that is good is their 1v1 combat system, which is full of strategy and twitch skill. (Group is a totally different story **snooze**)
What game does have a good combat system?
I think you just suck at understanding strategic combat in general, therefore thinking it all sucks.
Obviously you haven't tried a game that actually requires skill, no just a beefed character or in this case, a beefed spaceship.
Generally mmo's doesn't require skill in my opinion. There's often way to much power in the equipment, and EvE is exception. That's why games like EvE and WoW doesn't really require skill. One of the only MMos, or mmo-like(it's not really an mmo) that requires skill is GW. The Team build, the character build, the skill build and the items reflecting your choice. Getting good items is no deal, so the only barrier is you.
Other games that require skill is not mmos but RTS and FPS games. Games such as Cs, AA, Wc3x, CS, Swat 4, BF2 and so on. It's because there is no equipment or attributes here. It's all you.
GW is in international leagues not sponsered or created by the developers. Is EvE that? No. Neither is WoW.
Try playing games that either requires reaction(cs), strategy(wc3x and sc), or both(wc3x and sc)
Doesn't change the fact that EvE is skillless compared to GW. I and know it's not an MMO, but it has very strong features of mmos, and with altaration of few things it could be an mmo with the exact same combat system.
Originally posted by Jackcolt Doesn't change the fact that EvE is skillless compared to GW. I and know it's not an MMO, but it has very strong features of mmos, and with altaration of few things it could be an mmo with the exact same combat system.
It doesn't change the fact that you just didn't understand the complexity of EvE in the whole month you played and therfore think it sucks.
Yeah. You posted on another thread that you played for a month. So, stop your arguing.
Eve is relatively without skill if your definition of skill is different. But if you know you are going up against an enemy that has a weakness in one area, but you know he tanks that heavily usually, then you can find his second weak point and then hit that. If that doesn't require skill to figure out how your enemy reacts then I don't know what definition of skill you are using.
Anticipating and out thinking your enemy is definitely a skill that just doesn't come naturally for most people.
I haven't played GW much but my take on it is the skill isn't much different from any everquest clone out there. There class, level and skill system is a bit different though, but not entirely different.
if you where forced to sit cockpit and play fps style when you encounted pvp or pve ...eve would rock, dog fight it out, player skill and reflexes meaning alot more to battle outcome then
Originally posted by freebirdpat Eve is relatively without skill if your definition of skill is different. But if you know you are going up against an enemy that has a weakness in one area, but you know he tanks that heavily usually, then you can find his second weak point and then hit that. If that doesn't require skill to figure out how your enemy reacts then I don't know what definition of skill you are using. Anticipating and out thinking your enemy is definitely a skill that just doesn't come naturally for most people. I haven't played GW much but my take on it is the skill isn't much different from any everquest clone out there. There class, level and skill system is a bit different though, but not entirely different.
We started out talking about Strategy. He says EVE has no strategy and I said he doesn't understand it and therefore thinks it sucks.
Exactly. Real-time dog fighting would add skill. If you knew how to time youre actions with your ship you could dodge missiles and such. I want a game where a relatively low level character can kill one of the biggest characters because he is an extremely skilled character, where the is just a noob. Either that, or a game where items and level are relatively easy to get.
But since you think EvE is so skilled, why isn't it in the ESL? GW is there, so why should EvE be there? Or in another league. I don't have to tell you why.
I don't think you've ever played a game that actually require strategy, or in this case, tactics.
Originally posted by Jackcolt But since you think EvE is so skilled, why isn't it in the ESL? GW is there, so why should EvE be there? Or in another league. I don't have to tell you why.
They are totally different games. I don't know what the ESL is, but I think it has something to do w/ Electronic Strategy League? Maybe. I dunno.
EVE is a sandbox MMO. The strategy is taking over what and doing what when. Not just randomly killing anything you want.
There is a reason the game is controlled by real life military officers. My CEO is an X-Royal Marine Officer. The CEOs of all the major corps are current or X Military of some country or another. There are less military playing America's Army than there is EVE Online. Don't you think there is a reason for it?
I myself am military. If you learn a little military jargon and go into any channel in the game, you will be extremely suprised on how many ppl actually understand you and can carry on a conversation.... moreso than ANY other MMO I have ever played.
So people needing a military fix goto play EvE? No the reason is that there's a lot of games giving you military fixes online, than there's online sci-fi games. I can see there might be a higher form of strategy which aren't obvious. There's complexity in that. But not in combat/tactics in my opinion.
I also think that more people who has been in the military would play AA than EvE. You forget that it's probably far from all player who understand military lingo, and a lot of them probably have learned it somewhere else. In AA who can see who has been in the army.
I understand a lot of military jargon, but has never been in the army.
Originally posted by Jackcolt I understand a lot of military jargon, but has never been in the army.
My current MOS is 25F but I had to change it to 92Y because of a re-orginisation of the Arkansas ARNG. I was kinda hoping to get in on the Motor Pool, but the AIT was too long and I need to stay in school so I can get my commision. I have to go back to AIT in May but I won't be an IET Soldier. Technically I'm MOS-Q'd so I can still get my e-05, but I will never see that because I will be a CDT before I ever make e-05 unless I have really really high PT Scores, which is never going to happen... so I'm not even going to go to PLDC. I recently changed units, but the allowed me to keep all my TA-50 including my MOP Suit. I thought they would make me turn it in but I didn't. I was hoping to use it as a chance to get some new Gore-tex... but that didn't happen either.
I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say "Military Jargon"
If you can tell me what I just said, W/O looking it up. I won't believe you. Unless you grew up in an extremely military family.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by Jackcolt I understand a lot of military jargon, but has never been in the army.
My current MOS is 25F but I had to change it to 92Y because of a re-orginisation of the Arkansas ARNG. I was kinda hoping to get in on the Motor Pool, but the AIT was too long and I need to stay in school so I can get my commision. I have to go back to AIT in May but I won't be an IET Soldier. Technically I'm MOS-Q'd so I can still get my e-05, but I will never see that because I will be a CDT before I ever make e-05 unless I have really really high PT Scores, which is never going to happen... so I'm not even going to go to PLDC. I recently changed units, but the allowed me to keep all my TA-50 including my MOP Suit. I thought they would make me turn it in but I didn't. I was hoping to use it as a chance to get some new Gore-tex... but that didn't happen either.
I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say "Military Jargon"
If you can tell me what I just said, W/O looking it up. I won't believe you. Unless you grew up in an extremely military family.
I'd admit I didn't understand it all. But I did understand some of it(not a lot though) I have to agree to have to been in the American army to understand that. Fx the ARNG, we don't such a thing. We call it "Hjemme V
I would like to see many of those same things. Most especially for balance, is more rock/paper/scissors. Every advantage you take means a new weakness for a character.
No names unless you are introduced - for social development of that world.
A relatively compact db of items speeds up data transmission for interaction or copresence of multitudes of player. At the same time, I want lots of reserve items. I want huge stacks, like a thousand, but only need a few categories of standard items. It doesn't need to have 3 surnames attached to it. Just plain old "carbine" is cool with me.
No hp, or at least, no numerical hp. One bullet and you should be out of commision. Shooting them on the ground (a separate action in a non-fps), would be the kill. There should be different ramifications for different acts of course. It should be more complicated than who pulls the trigger first of course.
-- As for EVE or any other existing, non-vaporware game - none have come close to an ideal for the mature gamer. I'd say trials of ascension was vaporware, but even existing games can be called that. 6 months ago, I'd have called EVE 50% vaporware based on what I understood it to become back in beta. That's pretty normal though, and more a product of the developers being open with their game participants rather and optimistic rather than cagey. EVE is still missing lots of things like a working corporate shares system, corporate wallets, sensible combat environment tweaking, factional conflict, a complex war system, functional bounty hunting, late game reduction of grinding. (Why oh why did they feel compelled to introduce ICE mining I will never fathom.) Also, npcs are dumb and don't take into account your standing towards them.
Other leveling/stratification type flaws of EVE: too many fitting skills, too many generalist skills, too many 2gate chokepoints. I will abandon EVE when something better comes along.
Originally posted by Jackcolt Exactly. Real-time dog fighting would add skill. If you knew how to time youre actions with your ship you could dodge missiles and such. I want a game where a relatively low level character can kill one of the biggest characters because he is an extremely skilled character, where the is just a noob. Either that, or a game where items and level are relatively easy to get.But since you think EvE is so skilled, why isn't it in the ESL? GW is there, so why should EvE be there? Or in another league. I don't have to tell you why. I don't think you've ever played a game that actually require strategy, or in this case, tactics.
I disagree, it would add a twitch factor. Which is most certainly a skill but not the only skill out there for games.
I will tell you why EVE is not in any leagues since you don't want to tell everyone else. EVE is a MMORPG, it doesn't allow quick pickup games which the competitive community prefers. Guild Wars allows pickup games and pretty much encourages and has the setup for it.
I don't know what ESL is, but I know GW allows something other games don't, from what I recall, it allows you to start a character at any level with any abilties and items with certain restrictions. Which allows for easy pickup games. Another reason it may not be in the ESL is the ESL likes games that have a ton of players. EVE is played by 23k players at most at one time. Other games out there have 500k+ playing at one time. I don't know how many bought GW or how many are playing at one time, but I know EVE has less players.
But from your posts you don't care, which is why you used the stupid "I don't have to tell you why" attack, and this is the second time I have come across that phrase. Please, oh please tell us why instead of baiting it. Either your argument is good enough to stand alone or you have to antagonize with the "I don't have to tell you why." line.
MMORPGs have skill, they have strategy and tactics, but its a different genre of games, you cannot compare the skill, strategy and tactics of X-Wing Vs TIE fighter to Warcraft 3 because they are completely different games and genres.
First of all, GW allows you to start a PVP chr as lvl 20(max) with abilities you have brought through a priest for a certain amount of faction points(you get that from winning in PvP) and with some good items(not the best). A PvP can be just as strong as a PvE character, but either way if you want it to be exactly as you like, you need to play a lot.
23k players at once is very good. Wc3x has about 50k at a max. Cs has about 150k It's only WoW and other extremely big mmos that has over 500k on at once. Not even GW has that.
But why don't you tell me why you think EVE is so skilled then? You can't just disagree without giving proper argument for why you disagree, instead of bashing my own comments.
No. Twitch factor isn't a skill alone. Which is also why I think Wc3x takes more skill than any shooter out there. It's because you really need experience and knoweldge to know how handle different situations. Either I only see the superficial part of EVE, or it's just not deep enough. It's like WoW. You can see through the combat system in a matter of weeks, and at that point, all that really matters is if your character is better vs. your enemy.
You see, if EVE requires a lot of knoweldge and experience, and we add twitch, you would not only have to know a lot of the game in theory, but also how to pull it off in real time. We see it in warcraft. A guy might know a lot about the game, a lot about how to handle situations, but if he actually himself has to control his units, he losses. I know EVE isn't warcraft and so on, but I think we can still compare the different forms of skill.
Originally posted by Jackcolt First of all, GW allows you to start a PVP chr as lvl 20(max) with abilities you have brought through a priest for a certain amount of faction points(you get that from winning in PvP) and with some good items(not the best). A PvP can be just as strong as a PvE character, but either way if you want it to be exactly as you like, you need to play a lot.23k players at once is very good. Wc3x has about 50k at a max. Cs has about 150k It's only WoW and other extremely big mmos that has over 500k on at once. Not even GW has that. But why don't you tell me why you think EVE is so skilled then? You can't just disagree without giving proper argument for why you disagree, instead of bashing my own comments. No. Twitch factor isn't a skill alone. Which is also why I think Wc3x takes more skill than any shooter out there. It's because you really need experience and knoweldge to know how handle different situations. Either I only see the superficial part of EVE, or it's just not deep enough. It's like WoW. You can see through the combat system in a matter of weeks, and at that point, all that really matters is if your character is better vs. your enemy.You see, if EVE requires a lot of knoweldge and experience, and we add twitch, you would not only have to know a lot of the game in theory, but also how to pull it off in real time. We see it in warcraft. A guy might know a lot about the game, a lot about how to handle situations, but if he actually himself has to control his units, he losses. I know EVE isn't warcraft and so on, but I think we can still compare the different forms of skill.
I want to see CS server that can take 150k players in at once....I'm sure you'd get thousands of frags with just one push of trigger.
there is 23k players in ONE server at ONCE...no other mmorpg to the date has been able to achieve the same.
Being good in Eve is about ability to controll your fleet in battle against another fleet to conquer a system..that requires that everyone of your fleet knows exactly what they're doing or you'll just end up needing to do another mining co-op to replace everyones destroyed ships.
Comparing games like WoW to Eve is like comparing Solitaire to chess
There is actual player skills needed for PvP in EvE:
Depending on the ship you are flying you need to be at certain ranges to your target to be able to damage, "tackle" (hinder it from warping away and/or slow it down) or EW (Electronic warfare = disable some of its electronic systems) the target. Getting into that range involves actual pilot skill especially with the smaller (relatively fragile) ships. These are normally fast, and the trick is to keep transversal velocity up while aproaching. Transversal velocity is sort of sideways velocity - turretts have a max speed at which they can turn - if your transversal velocity is higher then the turning speed of the turrets of the target ship then chances it can hit you are extremely slim.
Cap mamagement is another skill a pilot needs. Cap stands for capacitor. The capacitor stores energy and is constantly recharged by the ships reactors at an even rate. If the capacitor runs dry the ship has no more energy and its weapons and most defensive systems will disable. It is vitaly important for survival in combat to know when to activate certain systems while disabling others in order to keep the capacitor from running dry. The 4 main types of systems a combat ship has are 1) engine boosters (either microwarpdrive (very fast but uses lots of cap, also increases signature radius thus making a ship more likely to get hit) or afterburner (slower, uses less cap and doesnt increase chances to get hit) 2) weapon systems 3) EW systems and 4) defensive systems. Again, the trick here is to know when to switch which of these systems on or off to keep cap going.
I could keep on going for many pages explaining what you need to watch for when doing PvP in EvE. The two points described above are just a very small portion of actual player skill (unrelated to char "trained" skills) involved in PvP in EvE.
People who say combat in EvE needs no actual player skill simply dont know what they are talking about and would get killed in any real PvP in EvE very quickly.
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Hehe,
For the fun of it, I have started to write what the design doc of my dream MMO would be. That is quite some work, I am merely at 7 pages and I see it would prolly break the hundred...if I complete it.
Anyway, let's go play more games for now!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's very obvious(sp?) you never did understand the strategy and was always Toast when you fought something that fought back, from that little statement right there.
LoL
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It's very obvious(sp?) you never did understand the strategy and was always Toast when you fought something that fought back, from that little statement right there.
LoL
You've obviously never played a game that has depth in combat. EvE might have a deep crafting and Economics system, but Combat isn't. It's about as deep as WoW in combat.
SWG has a deep crafting system.
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SWG has a deep crafting system.
Well I didn't get really into the crafting system then... yet I can tell that the combat system is noway near deep.
Stuff quoting you, people read through you so I can post this.
Here's a hint. You arn't ment to solo in Eve.... Combat is as tirseomse as cooking the same thing 10k times. But if you have other people wioh you, your not so bored anymore. Then when you come up against another group of people and conflict erupts. Sorry the Combat just got interesting. This also relates to the 'dungeons owned by players' concept. Eve has that, just the 'dungeon' is 0.0 space and players control it. When your soloing you can go down in flames from wrong stuff up. When in a group, your worth what you make yourself worth. Tackler, Tanker, Hearler(yeah ships can be healed persay) and the Grunts. Eve isn't Solo friendly, Eve is group orientated space war sim.
Plus Ragosch sounds like a CCP Dev half the time... Be causal Rag, your wierding me out with this profesional stuff...
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Perhaps. But the combat is still as deep as WoW. Group combat might be more fun than soloing, I can agree to that, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's utterly skillless, just like WoW.
What game does have a good combat system?
I think you just suck at understanding strategic combat in general, therefore thinking it all sucks.
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Obviously you haven't tried a game that actually requires skill, no just a beefed character or in this case, a beefed spaceship.
Generally mmo's doesn't require skill in my opinion. There's often way to much power in the equipment, and EvE is exception. That's why games like EvE and WoW doesn't really require skill. One of the only MMos, or mmo-like(it's not really an mmo) that requires skill is GW. The Team build, the character build, the skill build and the items reflecting your choice. Getting good items is no deal, so the only barrier is you.
Other games that require skill is not mmos but RTS and FPS games. Games such as Cs, AA, Wc3x, CS, Swat 4, BF2 and so on. It's because there is no equipment or attributes here. It's all you.
GW is in international leagues not sponsered or created by the developers. Is EvE that? No. Neither is WoW.
Try playing games that either requires reaction(cs), strategy(wc3x and sc), or both(wc3x and sc)
This is about MMOs.
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Doesn't change the fact that EvE is skillless compared to GW. I and know it's not an MMO, but it has very strong features of mmos, and with altaration of few things it could be an mmo with the exact same combat system.
It doesn't change the fact that you just didn't understand the complexity of EvE in the whole month you played and therfore think it sucks.
Yeah. You posted on another thread that you played for a month. So, stop your arguing.
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Eve is relatively without skill if your definition of skill is different. But if you know you are going up against an enemy that has a weakness in one area, but you know he tanks that heavily usually, then you can find his second weak point and then hit that. If that doesn't require skill to figure out how your enemy reacts then I don't know what definition of skill you are using.
Anticipating and out thinking your enemy is definitely a skill that just doesn't come naturally for most people.
I haven't played GW much but my take on it is the skill isn't much different from any everquest clone out there. There class, level and skill system is a bit different though, but not entirely different.
if you where forced to sit cockpit and play fps style when you encounted pvp or pve ...eve would rock, dog fight it out, player skill and reflexes meaning alot more to battle outcome then
C
We started out talking about Strategy. He says EVE has no strategy and I said he doesn't understand it and therefore thinks it sucks.
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Exactly. Real-time dog fighting would add skill. If you knew how to time youre actions with your ship you could dodge missiles and such. I want a game where a relatively low level character can kill one of the biggest characters because he is an extremely skilled character, where the is just a noob. Either that, or a game where items and level are relatively easy to get.
But since you think EvE is so skilled, why isn't it in the ESL? GW is there, so why should EvE be there? Or in another league. I don't have to tell you why.
I don't think you've ever played a game that actually require strategy, or in this case, tactics.
They are totally different games. I don't know what the ESL is, but I think it has something to do w/ Electronic Strategy League? Maybe. I dunno.
EVE is a sandbox MMO. The strategy is taking over what and doing what when. Not just randomly killing anything you want.
There is a reason the game is controlled by real life military officers. My CEO is an X-Royal Marine Officer. The CEOs of all the major corps are current or X Military of some country or another. There are less military playing America's Army than there is EVE Online. Don't you think there is a reason for it?
I myself am military. If you learn a little military jargon and go into any channel in the game, you will be extremely suprised on how many ppl actually understand you and can carry on a conversation.... moreso than ANY other MMO I have ever played.
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So people needing a military fix goto play EvE? No the reason is that there's a lot of games giving you military fixes online, than there's online sci-fi games. I can see there might be a higher form of strategy which aren't obvious. There's complexity in that. But not in combat/tactics in my opinion.
I also think that more people who has been in the military would play AA than EvE. You forget that it's probably far from all player who understand military lingo, and a lot of them probably have learned it somewhere else. In AA who can see who has been in the army.
I understand a lot of military jargon, but has never been in the army.
My current MOS is 25F but I had to change it to 92Y because of a re-orginisation of the Arkansas ARNG. I was kinda hoping to get in on the Motor Pool, but the AIT was too long and I need to stay in school so I can get my commision. I have to go back to AIT in May but I won't be an IET Soldier.
Technically I'm MOS-Q'd so I can still get my e-05, but I will never see that because I will be a CDT before I ever make e-05 unless I have really really high PT Scores, which is never going to happen... so I'm not even going to go to PLDC.
I recently changed units, but the allowed me to keep all my TA-50 including my MOP Suit. I thought they would make me turn it in but I didn't. I was hoping to use it as a chance to get some new Gore-tex... but that didn't happen either.
I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say "Military Jargon"
If you can tell me what I just said, W/O looking it up. I won't believe you. Unless you grew up in an extremely military family.
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My current MOS is 25F but I had to change it to 92Y because of a re-orginisation of the Arkansas ARNG. I was kinda hoping to get in on the Motor Pool, but the AIT was too long and I need to stay in school so I can get my commision. I have to go back to AIT in May but I won't be an IET Soldier.
Technically I'm MOS-Q'd so I can still get my e-05, but I will never see that because I will be a CDT before I ever make e-05 unless I have really really high PT Scores, which is never going to happen... so I'm not even going to go to PLDC.
I recently changed units, but the allowed me to keep all my TA-50 including my MOP Suit. I thought they would make me turn it in but I didn't. I was hoping to use it as a chance to get some new Gore-tex... but that didn't happen either.
I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say "Military Jargon"
If you can tell me what I just said, W/O looking it up. I won't believe you. Unless you grew up in an extremely military family.
I'd admit I didn't understand it all. But I did understand some of it(not a lot though) I have to agree to have to been in the American army to understand that. Fx the ARNG, we don't such a thing. We call it "Hjemme V
Uh.. getting back to the OP..
I would like to see many of those same things. Most especially for balance, is more rock/paper/scissors. Every advantage you take means a new weakness for a character.
No names unless you are introduced - for social development of that world.
A relatively compact db of items speeds up data transmission for interaction or copresence of multitudes of player. At the same time, I want lots of reserve items. I want huge stacks, like a thousand, but only need a few categories of standard items. It doesn't need to have 3 surnames attached to it. Just plain old "carbine" is cool with me.
No hp, or at least, no numerical hp. One bullet and you should be out of commision. Shooting them on the ground (a separate action in a non-fps), would be the kill. There should be different ramifications for different acts of course. It should be more complicated than who pulls the trigger first of course.
--
As for EVE or any other existing, non-vaporware game - none have come close to an ideal for the mature gamer. I'd say trials of ascension was vaporware, but even existing games can be called that. 6 months ago, I'd have called EVE 50% vaporware based on what I understood it to become back in beta. That's pretty normal though, and more a product of the developers being open with their game participants rather and optimistic rather than cagey. EVE is still missing lots of things like a working corporate shares system, corporate wallets, sensible combat environment tweaking, factional conflict, a complex war system, functional bounty hunting, late game reduction of grinding. (Why oh why did they feel compelled to introduce ICE mining I will never fathom.) Also, npcs are dumb and don't take into account your standing towards them.
Other leveling/stratification type flaws of EVE: too many fitting skills, too many generalist skills, too many 2gate chokepoints. I will abandon EVE when something better comes along.
I disagree, it would add a twitch factor. Which is most certainly a skill but not the only skill out there for games.
I will tell you why EVE is not in any leagues since you don't want to tell everyone else. EVE is a MMORPG, it doesn't allow quick pickup games which the competitive community prefers. Guild Wars allows pickup games and pretty much encourages and has the setup for it.
I don't know what ESL is, but I know GW allows something other games don't, from what I recall, it allows you to start a character at any level with any abilties and items with certain restrictions. Which allows for easy pickup games. Another reason it may not be in the ESL is the ESL likes games that have a ton of players. EVE is played by 23k players at most at one time. Other games out there have 500k+ playing at one time. I don't know how many bought GW or how many are playing at one time, but I know EVE has less players.
But from your posts you don't care, which is why you used the stupid "I don't have to tell you why" attack, and this is the second time I have come across that phrase. Please, oh please tell us why instead of baiting it. Either your argument is good enough to stand alone or you have to antagonize with the "I don't have to tell you why." line.
MMORPGs have skill, they have strategy and tactics, but its a different genre of games, you cannot compare the skill, strategy and tactics of X-Wing Vs TIE fighter to Warcraft 3 because they are completely different games and genres.
First of all, GW allows you to start a PVP chr as lvl 20(max) with abilities you have brought through a priest for a certain amount of faction points(you get that from winning in PvP) and with some good items(not the best). A PvP can be just as strong as a PvE character, but either way if you want it to be exactly as you like, you need to play a lot.
23k players at once is very good. Wc3x has about 50k at a max. Cs has about 150k It's only WoW and other extremely big mmos that has over 500k on at once. Not even GW has that.
But why don't you tell me why you think EVE is so skilled then? You can't just disagree without giving proper argument for why you disagree, instead of bashing my own comments.
No. Twitch factor isn't a skill alone. Which is also why I think Wc3x takes more skill than any shooter out there. It's because you really need experience and knoweldge to know how handle different situations. Either I only see the superficial part of EVE, or it's just not deep enough. It's like WoW. You can see through the combat system in a matter of weeks, and at that point, all that really matters is if your character is better vs. your enemy.
You see, if EVE requires a lot of knoweldge and experience, and we add twitch, you would not only have to know a lot of the game in theory, but also how to pull it off in real time. We see it in warcraft. A guy might know a lot about the game, a lot about how to handle situations, but if he actually himself has to control his units, he losses. I know EVE isn't warcraft and so on, but I think we can still compare the different forms of skill.
I want to see CS server that can take 150k players in at once....I'm sure you'd get thousands of frags with just one push of trigger.
there is 23k players in ONE server at ONCE...no other mmorpg to the date has been able to achieve the same.
Being good in Eve is about ability to controll your fleet in battle against another fleet to conquer a system..that requires that everyone of your fleet knows exactly what they're doing or you'll just end up needing to do another mining co-op to replace everyones destroyed ships.
Comparing games like WoW to Eve is like comparing Solitaire to chess
There is actual player skills needed for PvP in EvE:
Depending on the ship you are flying you need to be at certain ranges to your target to be able to damage, "tackle" (hinder it from warping away and/or slow it down) or EW (Electronic warfare = disable some of its electronic systems) the target.
Getting into that range involves actual pilot skill especially with the smaller (relatively fragile) ships. These are normally fast, and the trick is to keep transversal velocity up while aproaching. Transversal velocity is sort of sideways velocity - turretts have a max speed at which they can turn - if your transversal velocity is higher then the turning speed of the turrets of the target ship then chances it can hit you are extremely slim.
Cap mamagement is another skill a pilot needs. Cap stands for capacitor. The capacitor stores energy and is constantly recharged by the ships reactors at an even rate. If the capacitor runs dry the ship has no more energy and its weapons and most defensive systems will disable. It is vitaly important for survival in combat to know when to activate certain systems while disabling others in order to keep the capacitor from running dry. The 4 main types of systems a combat ship has are 1) engine boosters (either microwarpdrive (very fast but uses lots of cap, also increases signature radius thus making a ship more likely to get hit) or afterburner (slower, uses less cap and doesnt increase chances to get hit) 2) weapon systems 3) EW systems and 4) defensive systems. Again, the trick here is to know when to switch which of these systems on or off to keep cap going.
I could keep on going for many pages explaining what you need to watch for when doing PvP in EvE. The two points described above are just a very small portion of actual player skill (unrelated to char "trained" skills) involved in PvP in EvE.
People who say combat in EvE needs no actual player skill simply dont know what they are talking about and would get killed in any real PvP in EvE very quickly.