I can pretty much guarantee you are too young baff, because in this case, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Peple throw fact after fact on you, serving you link after link with real numbers, and you continue your little "Planescape suxxors, I am right and the world is wrong" idiocy... Just step down from that arrogant self importance and at LEAST look at the facts and links provided before you open your mouth again. You have a PERSONAL dislike to Planescape, maybe you were too young to understand its qualities but...
In the game busniness, you know people WORKING with games, not just left your little Nintendo and started with daddys computer... PLanescape Torment hold a lot higher respect and a much higher acclaim than any of the Baldur series, or any other RPGs for that matter. It was aimed at a semimature audience, had an adult sense of humor and problems of a level normally only found in advanced Adventure games. If you read any computer magazines except "Roxxors" and some internet page because your allowance can not cover the cost of paper, you would see Planescape Torment pop up in all discussion about RPGs on computers from both developers, critics and journalists. It is a milestone in RPG development, and a very succesful one at that.
Now go back to saying: "I am right, you are wrong and facts can go to hell"
You are have proven complete ignorance combined with a truckload of immature arrogance right here, and... Well, it is known that those two together in one person means he would not listen to facts and reality if it was duct taped to an oncoming truck.
So rant on. You still look like a fool.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Originally posted by Harafnir I can pretty much guarantee you are too young baff, because in this case, you have no clue what you are talking about. Peple throw fact after fact on you, serving you link after link with real numbers, and you continue your little "Planescape suxxors, I am right and the world is wrong" idiocy... Just step down from that arrogant self importance and at LEAST look at the facts and links provided before you open your mouth again. You have a PERSONAL dislike to Planescape, maybe you were too young to understand its qualities but... In the game busniness, you know people WORKING with games, not just left your little Nintendo and started with daddys computer... PLanescape Torment hold a lot higher respect and a much higher acclaim than any of the Baldur series, or any other RPGs for that matter. It was aimed at a semimature audience, had an adult sense of humor and problems of a level normally only found in advanced Adventure games. If you read any computer magazines except "Roxxors" and some internet page because your allowance can not cover the cost of paper, you would see Planescape Torment pop up in all discussion about RPGs on computers from both developers, critics and journalists. It is a milestone in RPG development, and a very succesful one at that. Now go back to saying: "I am right, you are wrong and facts can go to hell" You are have proven complete ignorance combined with a truckload of immature arrogance right here, and... Well, it is known that those two together in one person means he would not listen to facts and reality if it was duct taped to an oncoming truck. So rant on. You still look like a fool.
Post your age then smart mouth.
from the links provided.
"This decision, coupled with unattractive box art and inadequate marketing strategies, arguably led the game to have sales lower than expected."
Perhaps you should have actually read those links yourself.
Please note that the sales numbers of two games from amazon.com do not reflect the global sales of these games. Planescape is well known for not selling well and Halflife 2 isn't. I don't wish to research this or further dispute it. If that is what you wish to beleieve, I don't wish to stop you. If you would like to re-evaluate this opinion or research it further I suggest that the accuracy of your information has room for improvement. The best place to find accurate information on these figures will be the quarterly stock holders reports for the respective publishing companies.
I have seen a whole host of good reviews of it in this thread and more links to good reviews in this thread and that is an absolute first for me, but having actually played it I stand by my own opinion. I have taken the time to explain my reasons to you. If you wish to take this opportunity to develop your own opinions of this game I am more than willing to read them.
Originally posted by baffI don't dislike Zeb Cook, I have no idea who he is. Every project that people have mentioned him to have been involved in so far, (with the exception of COH) has been nothing to write home about. Torment is the third computer game to use the Baldurs Gate engine. The first two being Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2. All three are D&D games. Essentially they are the same games in all but scenario and Torment is the third in the series. Had Torment been in anyway financially successful, there would have been a fourth. NB Halflife 2 has sold enough to warrant an expansion pack. (surprise surprise). Torment has not.
So, by your reasoning, KOTOR is basically NWN 2, and KOTOR 2 is basically NWN 3. After all, Both of those two Star Wars games used the engine Bioware developed for use in NWN and it's expansions.
2e, Planescape, and Kara-Tur have been nothing special? You have obviously never played many pnp games. 2e was not simply a reprint of 1e any more than 1e was simply a reprint of OD&D, or OD&D was simply a reprint of Chainmail. There were many differences, despite the systems being basically compatible. If you wish to claim 2e was simply a reprint of 1e, then you have to accept the like claim that 3e is just a reprint of any of the other dozens of d20 realms that use the same basic rulesets. Two of the realms he created are still emensely popular among gamers, some 20 years later (Kara-Tur).
Contrary to what your uninformed statements claim, there were changes between 1e and 2e. The way magic worked, classes, races, combat, all of these things had noticable changes while remaining compatible with 1e, OD&D, and Chainmail. Oh, and this statement from you just proves your complete ignorance in this area:
"2nd editon D&D, and for that matter 3rd edition D&D are hardly great works of creative genius, they are almost exact word for word reprints of first edition."
3e shares little with the prior forms of D&D past the name and classes. The leveling system, the combat, classes, races, magic, everything has been changed. This is the first version of D&D that is not compatible with any previous version of D&D. Care to try that again, except with a little actual knowledge and/or information this time?
Is your sole proof of Torment sucking the fact that there were no expansions for it? Because that is all you have. You are willing to accept Halflife 2 as a success, but not a game that had much, much higher sales than Halflife 2? I am sorry, but I find that extremely funny and pathetic at the same time. That would be like saying Runescape was a rousing success, while WoW flopped.
"Had Torment been in anyway financially successful, there would have been a fourth."
Not true. Torment was announced as the last game on to be built on that engine before it was even released. By that point, 3e was about to come out and NWN was already in development. That is why there were no sequels to Torment. Torment catered to 2e players, something WotC was no longer doing by the time the game hit the shelves. Again, facts get in the way of your arguements.
The only question left, really, is why I am bothering to spend so much time arguing with somebody who obviously has no grasp of what he is arguing about.
Originally posted by baff from the links provided. "This decision, coupled with unattractive box art and inadequate marketing strategies, arguably led the game to have sales lower than expected." Perhaps you should have actually read those links yourself. Please note that the sales numbers of two games from amazon.com do not reflect the global sales of these games. Planescape is well known for not selling well and Halflife 2 isn't. I don't wish to research this or further dispute it. If that is what you wish to beleieve, I don't wish to stop you. If you would like to re-evaluate this opinion or research it further I suggest that the accuracy of your information has room for improvement. The best place to find accurate information on these figures will be the quarterly stock holders reports for the respective publishing companies.
I have seen a whole host of good reviews of it in this thread and more links to good reviews in this thread and that is an absolute first for me, but having actually played it I stand by my own opinion. I have taken the time to explain my reasons to you. If you wish to take this opportunity to develop your own opinions of this game I am more than willing to read them.
Torment's sales were only disappionting in comparison to BG and BG2 and expansions. It was still a huge success in terms of profit and sales. It just did not match those of BG and BG2. Why? Because, as I noted above, WotC had recently taken over TSR and was not pushing 2e any more. If WotC had bought TSR sooner in the game's development, they would have scraped it for the simple fact that it was based on TSR rules and not WotC rules. Even if it had outsold the BG series, WotC would have delcared it a disappointment rather than admit that gamers still liked and wanted 2e.
"If you would like to re-evaluate this opinion or research it further I suggest that the accuracy of your information has room for improvement. The best place to find accurate information on these figures will be the quarterly stock holders reports for the respective publishing companies."
Oddly enough, I have been suggesting to you that you re-evaluate your opinion and research it further. The stocks for WotC were tanking before the launch of Torment. Magic: The Gathering was losing ground and they had already announced the cancellation of the 2e ruleset to be replaced with a d20 system. The release of Torment brought their stocks back up considerably.
And, once again, your opinion of the game does not change the fact that Torment sold well. Okay, you hated the game. So what? I cannot stand EQ or WoW, but you do not see me proclaiming them failures. No matter how you cut it, the only thing you are left with is your opinion of the game. The facts do not back you in any way shape or form.
So, by your reasoning, KOTOR is basically NWN 2, and KOTOR 2 is basically NWN 3. After all, Both of those two Star Wars games used the engine Bioware developed for use in NWN and it's expansions.
That's your reasoning. NeverWinterNights is not a Star Wars game it's D&D game. Kotor is made by Lucasarts.
Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2 and Planescape Torment are all D&D games made on the same engine by the same company and the same programmers. Black ISle. (which folded after the Torment release).
2e, Planescape, and Kara-Tur have been nothing special? You have obviously never played many pnp games. 2e was not simply a reprint of 1e any more than 1e was simply a reprint of OD&D, or OD&D was simply a reprint of Chainmail. There were many differences, despite the systems being basically compatible. If you wish to claim 2e was simply a reprint of 1e, then you have to accept the like claim that 3e is just a reprint of any of the other dozens of d20 realms that use the same basic rulesets. Two of the realms he created are still emensely popular among gamers, some 20 years later (Kara-Tur).
Never played Kara tur. And I wasn't dumb enough to buy 3rd edition since I already owned mulitple copies 1st and 2nd editions (and many other game systems beside). I had learnt my lesson long before the creation of 3rd edition.
Contrary to what your uninformed statements claim, there were changes between 1e and 2e. The way magic worked, classes, races, combat, all of these things had noticable changes while remaining compatible with 1e, OD&D, and Chainmail. Oh, and this statement from you just proves your complete ignorance in this area:
As I claimed nominal changes only, essentially the books are word for word copies.
"2nd editon D&D, and for that matter 3rd edition D&D are hardly great works of creative genius, they are almost exact word for word reprints of first edition."
3e shares little with the prior forms of D&D past the name and classes. The leveling system, the combat, classes, races, magic, everything has been changed. This is the first version of D&D that is not compatible with any previous version of D&D. Care to try that again, except with a little actual knowledge and/or information this time?
If you say so, I wasn't dumb enough to buy it.
Is your sole proof of Torment sucking the fact that there were no expansions for it? Because that is all you have. You are willing to accept Halflife 2 as a success, but not a game that had much, much higher sales than Halflife 2? I am sorry, but I find that extremely funny and pathetic at the same time. That would be like saying Runescape was a rousing success, while WoW flopped.
I don't need proof of Torment sucking, it's a personal and subjective opinion. Not something you can prove or disprove.
Your comments about Halflife 2 having much lower sales are simply nonsense. Half life 2 sold 1.7 million copies in the first week alone, not including online sales. (How many did Planescape sell?)
Still if you had actually read the reviews you posted for me to look at, you would know that.
Here's another quote from one of your linked reviews
Planescape: Torment by the now disbanded Black Isle studios was one of those gamesthat just didn't sell wellfor who knows what reason
Here's still another quote from another of the links you gave me
It was a spectactular flop in the sales department
and another
it received a disappointingly low number of sales
or another
this game relative poor sales compared to otherwise inferior but lighter games
Read your own links and learn
In all honesty, you haven't even bothered to read the links that you have provided before posting them. I am having a hard time being polite to you in the face of this.
Oh noes! Mister baff is having a hard time being patient with me, despite having admitted that he made many rather broad claims about subjects he knows nothing about! What ever will I do?! I know! I will correct the incorrect information in yet another post from you!
My reasoning about KOTOR and NWN being the same is taken directly from your reasoning. KOTOR was developed by Bioware, using the exact same engine they used in NWN and expansions. Hmm... Same company, programmers and engine for both NWN and KOTOR... Why does that sound familiar?
Try looking it up some time, maybe you will learn something.
You admit to having never played a sizable chunk of what Cook worked on, yet you expect us to accept your fiction about them as fact? Never played Kara-Tur? Never tried 3e? That is rather strange, since just a post ago you wanted us to believe you were the worlds greatest expert on them.
I am done arguing the differences between Chainmail, OD&D, 1e, and 2e beyond saying that they are not word for word copies. Anybody with any real time in more than one of those systems could tell you that. The only rehash about it is your arguements.
No, I do not have an exact number for what Torment sold, do you? It does, however, rate higher than HL2 in the sales for every online service that I have looked at. Not just Amazon, all of them. The 'disappiontlingly low saies numbers' are in comparison to BG, which sold huge. Of course, BG had the backing of the company putting it out. WotC did not back Torment in the least. They wanted it to fail so they could point at it and show how the players were tired of 2e. It still sold quite well, despite your claims to the other-wise. The proclamations of failure are from WotC, which did not want it to succeed and would not admit its success unless forced to. They did not develope it, they bought TRS after it was nearly complete. They stood to lose no money on it if it failed, and had every reason to want it to.
I do notice, however, that you have no answer to the fact that the main reason there was no Torment expansion/sequel was due to the fact that WotC was already developing NWN and refused to expand on 2e any more.
By the way, I never supplied any links. That was another poster that you completely ignored, so I simply reposted them. Honestly, you have not bothered to do any research past your own opinion and are just pulling things out of your backside at this point. To quote you, "I am having a hard time being polite to you in the face of this."
Oh noes! Mister baff is having a hard time being patient with me, despite having admitted that he made many rather broad claims about subjects he knows nothing about! What ever will I do?! I know! I will correct the incorrect information in yet another post from you!
My reasoning about KOTOR and NWN being the same is taken directly from your reasoning. KOTOR was developed by Bioware, using the exact same engine they used in NWN and expansions. Hmm... Same company, programmers and engine for both NWN and KOTOR... Why does that sound familiar?
My apologies. Lucasarts only oversaw it. It is not however a member of the D&D franchise.
Try looking it up some time, maybe you will learn something.
Thanks, I just did and I did. I have an open mind. Do you?
You admit to having never played a sizable chunk of what Cook worked on, yet you expect us to accept your fiction about them as fact? Never played Kara-Tur? Never tried 3e? That is rather strange, since just a post ago you wanted us to believe you were the worlds greatest expert on them.
I've tried 3e. But I did not buy it. I can't speak for products I haven't tried. My opinions are simply formed on what I have. I don't profess to being an expert on Zeb Cook, must i repeat to you for the third time that before this post I had never heard of him?
Please quote me, when I said I was the worlds greatest expert, or that I wanted you to believe I was. Or are you just flaming out of frustration?
I am done arguing the differences between
Chainmail, OD&D, 1e, and 2e beyond saying that they are not word for word copies. Anybody with any real time in more than one of those systems could tell you that. The only rehash about it is your arguements.
1st and second edition are essentially word for word copies. If you choose to read that as "exact same copies" that is your mistake.
It is my opinion that there is very little creative input between editions, but rather the addition of the odd spell and a skills system. You may indeed find this highly creative, but I do not.
No, I do not have an exact number for what Torment sold,
And yet you still blab on about how it is a better seller than Half life 2 (GOTY) despite all your given evidence contradicting you. I have provided you with HL2's first weekly sales figures, all you need to do to make me eat my words is come up with Planescapes.
do you?
I know that it went straight to the bargain bin at my local store, that when being given away at games conventions no one accepted, that all your given sources say it sold poorly and that there was no sequel or expansion and the company that made it folded directly after it's release.
It does, however, rate higher than HL2 in the sales for every online service that I have looked at. Not just Amazon,
And yet Amazon state "relative poor sales". Would you care to name any of those other online sellers? or did you invent them too?
all of them. The 'disappiontlingly low saies numbers' are in comparison to BG,
There are no mentions of it being a disappointingly low seller in relation to BG. Only it being a disappointingly low seller. The rest is your invention. How many of your own given sources will you need to read it from.
which sold huge. Of course, BG had the backing of the company putting it out. WotC did not back Torment in the least.
Nonsense. They had a massive publicity campaign, with full spread adds in all the gaming magasines, posters in shop windows, promotions at conventions, international distribution and a whole host of favourable reviews which you have linked me too. Not exactly what I would call unsupported.
They wanted it to fail so they could point at it and show how the players were tired of 2e. It still sold quite well, despite your claims to the other-wise.
Show me the sales figures.
The proclamations of failure are from WotC,
Seems unlikely. Link?
which did not want it to succeed and would not admit its success unless forced to. They did not develope it, they bought TRS after it was nearly complete. They stood to lose no money on it if it failed, and had every reason to want it to.
Shuuuure they wanted it to fail, they really hate making a return on their investments. Please let me go into business with you, I wish to learn from your acumen.
I do notice, however, that you have no answer to the fact that the main reason there was no Torment expansion/sequel was due to the fact that WotC was already developing NWN and refused to expand on 2e any more.
And yet under your own definition, that an expansion/sequel can transcend franchise (as with NWN to KOTOR), there was still no expansion or sequel.
In my opinion, the reason they folded is that their game was tired. No one was intrested in buying yet another rehash of Baldurs Gate and with the lead programmer already left, that was all they could actually produce. So they got no more investment. Poor sales of Torment meant they had no money of their own and so they folded.
By the way, I never supplied any links. That was another poster that you completely ignored, so I simply reposted them.
Without bothering to read them.
Seems a little foolish to repost something I "had completely ignored" only to completely ignore it yourself.
Honestly, you have not bothered to do any research past your own opinion and are just pulling things out of your backside at this point. To quote you, "I am having a hard time being polite to you in the face of this."
It seems to me that your research = reposting a load of links you haven't read.
Get the sales figures. You will find them in WOTC and Black isles Quarterly investor reports for the period of it's release date. If proving me wrong is your aim, thats where you will find your figures.
"My apologies. Lucasarts only oversaw it. It is not however a member of the D&D franchise. "
That requirement was never part of your claim. Your entire claim was that it was developed by the same people using the same engine. That, you said, made it basically BG 3. I simply extended that 'logic', making KOTOR NWN 2.
For the record, despite your claims, Torment was not the last game Black Isles put out. There was also Icewind Dale a year later, an expansion a year after that, Icewind Dale 2 a year after that, and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2 (PS2/X-Box) in 04. Torment was not the cause of their downfall, as you proclaimed.
Do I have an open mind? Very much so. I have actually played all of these systems we are talking about. If you actually had anything past your opinion (which you seem to expect everybody to accept as fact), I would pay more attention to what you say.
"Please quote me, when I said I was the worlds greatest expert, or that I wanted you to believe I was. Or are you just flaming out of frustration?"
Your opinion of yourself is very self-evident in your posts.
"1st and second edition are essentially word for word copies. If you choose to read that as "exact same copies" that is your mistake."
To take a page out of your play-book, 'Quote me where I said' "exact same copy". I have, in all of my replies, used the same phrasing you have. "Word for word copies." Again, this is another reason that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. If they were "word for word copies", as you keep insisting, then nobody would be able to tell what version they were playing if nobody told them. Yet, people can. People in my gaming groups can start a game and tell you what ruleset you are using.
"And yet Amazon state "relative poor sales". Would you care to name any of those other online sellers? or did you invent them too?"
And you really have no clue what 'relative poor sales' are? Even when the numbers of sales for it were higher than a game you accept as being a success? Hmm... Relative... That typically means in comparison to something. What could the possiblely compare it to? Could it be the BG series from the same people using the same engine? Could it be to the impossibly high 'anticipated sales' posted by WotC, which were higher than BG and the expansions combined?
"Nonsense. They had a massive publicity campaign, with full spread adds in all the gaming magasines, posters in shop windows, promotions at conventions, international distribution and a whole host of favourable reviews which you have linked me too. Not exactly what I would call unsupported."
That was the doing of Black Isle. WotC spent virtually nothing supporting the game. And why would they? They had nothing to lose and everything to gain if it failed.
"Shuuuure they wanted it to fail, they really hate making a return on their investments. Please let me go into business with you, I wish to learn from your acumen."
Again, more proof that you do not read. WotC had no monetary investment in Torment. They bought TSR after the game had been developed but before the marketing really kicked off. All those ads you saw were from Black Isle, not from WotC. They lost nothing on that game. If you cannot figure out a simple sabotage plan like that, you need to learn from somebody. If you had actually bothered to read, you might have already known that...
I do not care about proving you wrong. I do not need to. You have proven already that you have no clue what you are talking about. But enough. I am done wasting my time on you. Post after post, you simply respout the same garbage with no evidence. All of your 'facts' are proven wrong again and again, and you keep going. You are no longer worth the effort.
Originally posted by CoHsucks Did he have a falling out with Cryptic? Disagree with Emmert's "nerf now, then nerf later" game design?Anyone know?
No one who knows (Cryptic) is saying.
Personally, I find it disturbing that he left without any announcement. It wasn't until weeks later that players started asking, "Why isn't Lord Recluse answering any questions?" that a Cryptic rep gave a terse "He no longer works here"-type of reply without further explanation.
Comments
I can pretty much guarantee you are too young baff, because in this case, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Peple throw fact after fact on you, serving you link after link with real numbers, and you continue your little "Planescape suxxors, I am right and the world is wrong" idiocy... Just step down from that arrogant self importance and at LEAST look at the facts and links provided before you open your mouth again. You have a PERSONAL dislike to Planescape, maybe you were too young to understand its qualities but...
In the game busniness, you know people WORKING with games, not just left your little Nintendo and started with daddys computer... PLanescape Torment hold a lot higher respect and a much higher acclaim than any of the Baldur series, or any other RPGs for that matter. It was aimed at a semimature audience, had an adult sense of humor and problems of a level normally only found in advanced Adventure games. If you read any computer magazines except "Roxxors" and some internet page because your allowance can not cover the cost of paper, you would see Planescape Torment pop up in all discussion about RPGs on computers from both developers, critics and journalists. It is a milestone in RPG development, and a very succesful one at that.
Now go back to saying: "I am right, you are wrong and facts can go to hell"
You are have proven complete ignorance combined with a truckload of immature arrogance right here, and... Well, it is known that those two together in one person means he would not listen to facts and reality if it was duct taped to an oncoming truck.
So rant on. You still look like a fool.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
from the links provided.
"This decision, coupled with unattractive box art and inadequate marketing strategies, arguably led the game to have sales lower than expected."
Perhaps you should have actually read those links yourself.
Please note that the sales numbers of two games from amazon.com do not reflect the global sales of these games. Planescape is well known for not selling well and Halflife 2 isn't. I don't wish to research this or further dispute it. If that is what you wish to beleieve, I don't wish to stop you. If you would like to re-evaluate this opinion or research it further I suggest that the accuracy of your information has room for improvement. The best place to find accurate information on these figures will be the quarterly stock holders reports for the respective publishing companies.
I have seen a whole host of good reviews of it in this thread and more links to good reviews in this thread and that is an absolute first for me, but having actually played it I stand by my own opinion. I have taken the time to explain my reasons to you. If you wish to take this opportunity to develop your own opinions of this game I am more than willing to read them.
So, by your reasoning, KOTOR is basically NWN 2, and KOTOR 2 is basically NWN 3. After all, Both of those two Star Wars games used the engine Bioware developed for use in NWN and it's expansions.
2e, Planescape, and Kara-Tur have been nothing special? You have obviously never played many pnp games. 2e was not simply a reprint of 1e any more than 1e was simply a reprint of OD&D, or OD&D was simply a reprint of Chainmail. There were many differences, despite the systems being basically compatible. If you wish to claim 2e was simply a reprint of 1e, then you have to accept the like claim that 3e is just a reprint of any of the other dozens of d20 realms that use the same basic rulesets. Two of the realms he created are still emensely popular among gamers, some 20 years later (Kara-Tur).
Contrary to what your uninformed statements claim, there were changes between 1e and 2e. The way magic worked, classes, races, combat, all of these things had noticable changes while remaining compatible with 1e, OD&D, and Chainmail. Oh, and this statement from you just proves your complete ignorance in this area:
"2nd editon D&D, and for that matter 3rd edition D&D are hardly great works of creative genius, they are almost exact word for word reprints of first edition."
3e shares little with the prior forms of D&D past the name and classes. The leveling system, the combat, classes, races, magic, everything has been changed. This is the first version of D&D that is not compatible with any previous version of D&D. Care to try that again, except with a little actual knowledge and/or information this time?
Is your sole proof of Torment sucking the fact that there were no expansions for it? Because that is all you have. You are willing to accept Halflife 2 as a success, but not a game that had much, much higher sales than Halflife 2? I am sorry, but I find that extremely funny and pathetic at the same time. That would be like saying Runescape was a rousing success, while WoW flopped.
"Had Torment been in anyway financially successful, there would have been a fourth."
Not true. Torment was announced as the last game on to be built on that engine before it was even released. By that point, 3e was about to come out and NWN was already in development. That is why there were no sequels to Torment. Torment catered to 2e players, something WotC was no longer doing by the time the game hit the shelves. Again, facts get in the way of your arguements.
The only question left, really, is why I am bothering to spend so much time arguing with somebody who obviously has no grasp of what he is arguing about.
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
Torment's sales were only disappionting in comparison to BG and BG2 and expansions. It was still a huge success in terms of profit and sales. It just did not match those of BG and BG2. Why? Because, as I noted above, WotC had recently taken over TSR and was not pushing 2e any more. If WotC had bought TSR sooner in the game's development, they would have scraped it for the simple fact that it was based on TSR rules and not WotC rules. Even if it had outsold the BG series, WotC would have delcared it a disappointment rather than admit that gamers still liked and wanted 2e.
"If you would like to re-evaluate this opinion or research it further I suggest that the accuracy of your information has room for improvement. The best place to find accurate information on these figures will be the quarterly stock holders reports for the respective publishing companies."
Oddly enough, I have been suggesting to you that you re-evaluate your opinion and research it further. The stocks for WotC were tanking before the launch of Torment. Magic: The Gathering was losing ground and they had already announced the cancellation of the 2e ruleset to be replaced with a d20 system. The release of Torment brought their stocks back up considerably.
And, once again, your opinion of the game does not change the fact that Torment sold well. Okay, you hated the game. So what? I cannot stand EQ or WoW, but you do not see me proclaiming them failures. No matter how you cut it, the only thing you are left with is your opinion of the game. The facts do not back you in any way shape or form.
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
In all honesty, you haven't even bothered to read the links that you have provided before posting them. I am having a hard time being polite to you in the face of this.
Oh noes! Mister baff is having a hard time being patient with me, despite having admitted that he made many rather broad claims about subjects he knows nothing about! What ever will I do?! I know! I will correct the incorrect information in yet another post from you!
My reasoning about KOTOR and NWN being the same is taken directly from your reasoning. KOTOR was developed by Bioware, using the exact same engine they used in NWN and expansions. Hmm... Same company, programmers and engine for both NWN and KOTOR... Why does that sound familiar?
Try looking it up some time, maybe you will learn something.
You admit to having never played a sizable chunk of what Cook worked on, yet you expect us to accept your fiction about them as fact? Never played Kara-Tur? Never tried 3e? That is rather strange, since just a post ago you wanted us to believe you were the worlds greatest expert on them.
I am done arguing the differences between Chainmail, OD&D, 1e, and 2e beyond saying that they are not word for word copies. Anybody with any real time in more than one of those systems could tell you that. The only rehash about it is your arguements.
No, I do not have an exact number for what Torment sold, do you? It does, however, rate higher than HL2 in the sales for every online service that I have looked at. Not just Amazon, all of them. The 'disappiontlingly low saies numbers' are in comparison to BG, which sold huge. Of course, BG had the backing of the company putting it out. WotC did not back Torment in the least. They wanted it to fail so they could point at it and show how the players were tired of 2e. It still sold quite well, despite your claims to the other-wise. The proclamations of failure are from WotC, which did not want it to succeed and would not admit its success unless forced to. They did not develope it, they bought TRS after it was nearly complete. They stood to lose no money on it if it failed, and had every reason to want it to.
I do notice, however, that you have no answer to the fact that the main reason there was no Torment expansion/sequel was due to the fact that WotC was already developing NWN and refused to expand on 2e any more.
By the way, I never supplied any links. That was another poster that you completely ignored, so I simply reposted them. Honestly, you have not bothered to do any research past your own opinion and are just pulling things out of your backside at this point. To quote you, "I am having a hard time being polite to you in the face of this."
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
"My apologies. Lucasarts only oversaw it. It is not however a member of the D&D franchise. "
That requirement was never part of your claim. Your entire claim was that it was developed by the same people using the same engine. That, you said, made it basically BG 3. I simply extended that 'logic', making KOTOR NWN 2.
For the record, despite your claims, Torment was not the last game Black Isles put out. There was also Icewind Dale a year later, an expansion a year after that, Icewind Dale 2 a year after that, and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2 (PS2/X-Box) in 04. Torment was not the cause of their downfall, as you proclaimed.
Do I have an open mind? Very much so. I have actually played all of these systems we are talking about. If you actually had anything past your opinion (which you seem to expect everybody to accept as fact), I would pay more attention to what you say.
"Please quote me, when I said I was the worlds greatest expert, or that I wanted you to believe I was. Or are you just flaming out of frustration?"
Your opinion of yourself is very self-evident in your posts.
"1st and second edition are essentially word for word copies. If you choose to read that as "exact same copies" that is your mistake."
To take a page out of your play-book, 'Quote me where I said' "exact same copy". I have, in all of my replies, used the same phrasing you have. "Word for word copies." Again, this is another reason that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. If they were "word for word copies", as you keep insisting, then nobody would be able to tell what version they were playing if nobody told them. Yet, people can. People in my gaming groups can start a game and tell you what ruleset you are using.
"And yet Amazon state "relative poor sales". Would you care to name any of those other online sellers? or did you invent them too?"
And you really have no clue what 'relative poor sales' are? Even when the numbers of sales for it were higher than a game you accept as being a success? Hmm... Relative... That typically means in comparison to something. What could the possiblely compare it to? Could it be the BG series from the same people using the same engine? Could it be to the impossibly high 'anticipated sales' posted by WotC, which were higher than BG and the expansions combined?
"Nonsense. They had a massive publicity campaign, with full spread adds in all the gaming magasines, posters in shop windows, promotions at conventions, international distribution and a whole host of favourable reviews which you have linked me too. Not exactly what I would call unsupported."
That was the doing of Black Isle. WotC spent virtually nothing supporting the game. And why would they? They had nothing to lose and everything to gain if it failed.
"Shuuuure they wanted it to fail, they really hate making a return on their investments. Please let me go into business with you, I wish to learn from your acumen."
Again, more proof that you do not read. WotC had no monetary investment in Torment. They bought TSR after the game had been developed but before the marketing really kicked off. All those ads you saw were from Black Isle, not from WotC. They lost nothing on that game. If you cannot figure out a simple sabotage plan like that, you need to learn from somebody. If you had actually bothered to read, you might have already known that...
I do not care about proving you wrong. I do not need to. You have proven already that you have no clue what you are talking about. But enough. I am done wasting my time on you. Post after post, you simply respout the same garbage with no evidence. All of your 'facts' are proven wrong again and again, and you keep going. You are no longer worth the effort.
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
No one who knows (Cryptic) is saying.
Personally, I find it disturbing that he left without any announcement. It wasn't until weeks later that players started asking, "Why isn't Lord Recluse answering any questions?" that a Cryptic rep gave a terse "He no longer works here"-type of reply without further explanation.