Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
This "new mmo magic" sucks my sulfurous azz (err ash, sorry). No reagents required??? WTF
Zaxx99
Member Posts: 1,761
The typical mmorpg mage or wizard.
Typically starts out really weak, but ends up by one as one of the most powerful, most damage dealing types of character one can play.
Typically gets by with cloth robes or even rags which are MUCH more affordable then the gleaming swords, sparkling metal armor suits worn by the warrior types.
Anyone can play a hack and slash warrior. Even a dumb ox. But to play a character who uses intelligence and great wisdom to deal many magical forms of devastation SHOULD be much more difficult.
...This is where reagents come into play. In both Ultima Online and Asherons Call, the reagents were usually very costly to obtain. And the weight encumbance required to carry enough reagents so as to not run out anytime soon cost a good portion of the weak mages carrying ability. Asherons Call even required you to carry so many different kinds of reagents, you actually had to take the time to figure out which ones to stock up on and which ones you only needed a handful of.
To me this is a good thing. And a great balancer in the game. It made lazy people think twice before taking on the huge challenges of starting out as a poor, weak mage.
But now days, in current mmos... the reagent factor has virtually disappeared. Now days, playing a great magician requires nothing more then tapping a key for a spell and waiting for a mana bar to refill and re-tap over and over. No risk what-so-ever of running out of mandrake root or cobalt and dying to a monster because you forgot to fill up good on that one damn reagent.
So, the lack of depth, substance, and challenge to playing a mage character is GONE. Mages are easy now. Any 3 year old can simply tap the same key over and over and over and wait for the the blue bar to fill up.
I'm sure I will get trashed by about 300 fourteen year olds who cry at the thought of actually having to play a realistic magician type of character. Please don't make it harder!! WAAAA! Noooo, instead make my mmo sooo much easier! In fact, gimme infinite mana and infinate health while you're at it! Heh. And this is why current mmos are so often spoken of as B-O-R-I-N-G.
Please put some challenge and risk back in the wizard/mage role.
Surely someone out there agrees with me that challenge is a good thing... especially when playing one of the most devastating roles in a game.
- Zaxx
Comments
I agree, I've only played two MMOs which require reagents. UO, which had the most kick ass 'regs' for Mages/Necros and DDO.
Pity really.
No longer visiting MMORPG.com.
I would agree with you.... if the mage would be the uber power house you say.
But he isn't.
That is exactly the reason why in UO and AC you needed reagents and you do not need (or need only a handful of, for some spells) in other games.
In Ultima online, for example, you HAVE to be a mage. Or at least to have some magic profiency. Going around without recall is really not feasible and Power Bolt was one of the most powerful offensive weapon bar none. Adding to that the fact mages could have same hit points as warriors (or a bit less) and the only difference was the warrior had big ass armor (that defended 0 against spells anyway) while the mage COULD have the big ass armor all the same, but then he would cast much more limited amount of those nice deadly corp por.
AC was mostly the same, magic was such an integral part of the game that practically everybody knew some magic.
Beside those 2, though, in other games, the mage is simply one of the classes. it does not have this uber advantage over the warrior or the rogue. the classes tends to be quite balanced between themselves. So yeah, mages can blast you from afar, but a rogue backstab is gonna one-hit you and if you let a warrior come in melee you are SO dead.
So, no, i do not think in other mmorpgs they should make the mage more gimped than he really is cause his level of power is usually on par with the other classes and not superior.
Have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I find regeants VERY annoying for casting normal spells (ie a nuke I'll probably cast 200+ times per session). They should generally be limited to high level spells/summoning spells. (EQ had the right idea).
The mage is not superior to other classes in most modern mmos I will agree with.
And this is SAD. It's called stream-lining for the masses so that EVERYONE can play any class that they want and still do nothing more then hit the same hot key over and over and over and over. So basically, every class is exactly the same. Except for what they do when 'hot key 1' is pressed. The mage fires a bolt. The rogue comes out of hiding and strikes for 'double X' damage. The warrior does his super spinning axe strike or whatever. Same thing. Every person out there, regardless of the class they play, is just hitting the same few hot keys over and over and over. The only difference comes with the actions they see on the screen.
Again, I say make the mage-type much more powerful at high levels (and much weaker at low levels) like they SHOULD be... and instead of balancing the game by balancing the hotkey damages and actions between the classes, balance any higher advantages a rogue or mage class may have by CHANGING the actual gameplay elements required by that class (ie making it harder, requiring regs, making it require pressing alternating keys in a time requirement to stay hidden as a rogue, perhaps even requiring much more experience gained between level advancement.. anything would be better then the current class system only balanced by how fast a person can hit hot key 1 and 2 before another player of a different class).
But I know, I know. Balance to most players nowdays is only the balance of the same 4 hotkeys being pressed over and over and over regardless of the class played.
{sighs}
- Zaxx
Pwned, OMFG.
I think zaxtor has just defined the real definition of the term "noob".
noobs love the no challenge require current selection of pussy mmos where risk = zero, challenge = 0 and hotkeys determine their entire virtual existence.
real mmo gamers know what risk and challenge is, and realize that skills and classes are more different then just what hot key F2 does on their screen.
zaxx, I agree with you 110%, way to pwn the noobs in a post man.
I agree. Less on the fact of what is happening to mages, and more on the fact because of what is happening to mages, is a reflection of the gimping of MMORPG's.
I even heard Asherons Call 1 removed the use for regents. Which was absolutely ABSURD.
The MMOG industry is becoming what I like to call, "sugar sweet." It's like sugar that melts in your mouth. Instant "graitifcation". Except because it's instant. That also means the longevity is well...Instant as well, meaning there is none. Which then causes you to consume more and more sugar. But before long, you're sick as hell, and puking up your bowels, never wanting to see sugar again.
And that's me with these modern MMOG's. I'm sick of them. They were great at first. But they started to just really wear on me. And now everytime I see a new one, I want to vomit.
It's this whole mainstreaming BS. The mainstreaming, towards what it could be, is like how Warcraft 1 is, to Rome Total War. Completely PATHETIC.
What we view as tedious, can really add to the effect of the game. Because lets face it. If you're always being the hero, always slashing up monsters, it really isn't that great anymore. It becomes normal; it becomes the tedium.
That and it can also add to alot of memories. I remember in the days of Asherons Call 1, slaughtering countless blind mages that would just shop around without even trying to defend themselves. Fun times right there...Fun times.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
i actually agree with most that was said, reagents in UO made mages very difficult to start out as, if not impossible.. as you simply could not afford the amount of reagents required to start killing things, this lead to people actually being forced to take up craft skills/warrior skills purely to earn a bit of money.
looks like this is gonna be a hot topic, definately VERY interesting anyhow. Great subject and discussion here.
So let's take a poll shall we from what we see so far discussed:
you say "Thank God" about how great the current mmo's are today like you've ever even played AC1 or the pre-trammel Ultima Online.
You should really try to speak about things you actually KNOW about sir.
'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt.
- Zaxx
An inspired thread. But why stop with reagents? Spells should also need vocal components, gestures, language skills, line of site, etc. to be cast. This makes for a more in depth game as has already been mentioned, and requires more thinking on the part of the mage and his opponent.
You have been blinded? Can't cast that spell because you can't see the target, try different spell.
You have been paralyzed? Sorry, no gestures here.
Don't speak good enough Dark Elf? Try that spell after spending some time with your tutor.
And another reason to defend reagents. Economy! Now the lower levels have something to do (gather batwings, fox skins, eye of gnewt, herbs, fungi, etc......Players begin to buy and sell to each other and we have a dynamic economy!
I didn't read everything granted but I know Everquest required Malachite stones for mages to summon their pets. Wizards required shard fragments to cast specific teleportation spells as well as special stones needed for some nukes. and Necros needed bone chips to create their minions. Their were alot of other reagents required for other classes and other spells, just thought I would mention that.
Hi! My name is paper. Nerf scissors, rock is fine.
MMORPG = Mostly Men Online Roleplaying Girls
http://www.MichaelLuckhardt.com
Organization is an alternative playstyle... Given, some people do like it, but not everyone does... Just leave it to the crafters...
I play mages, because there's spells that targets ground, AOE, range attack, etc... And you have to atleast think a little more than a warrior in typical mmorpgs to get the maximum impact... In otherwords, there's a little tactics in there...
And forcing usage of materials for spells kill fun for me, because it usually becomes too tedious... Not having materials doesn't make magic any more unrealistic... MAGIC is MAGIC <---- THere's a reason it's called that... Anyways, I come from an asian background, so that's my view on it... Maybe if there were some sort of ritualist class?
Many agree with you, including me. But it will never happen. Gone are the days when the programmers made their own mmorpgs, or had the majority of power over a new mmorpg. When UO came out, Lord British and Raph Koster (aka Designer Dragon, aka Holocron) had more, or at least, as much power over the game as the investors. Compare to EQ in which at first Smeadly and McQuaid had 100% power, even making their own company, but then selling out to Sony all rights.
You will have to make your own mmorpg if you ever wish to see again what you like and enjoyed. That is what it comes down to. Or at the very least, you will have to form your own investment group, get some other like minded investors, then hire your own team of programmers to do what you tell them, and then make your own mmorpg.
Can this still be done in present times? Yes! But it takes drive, hardwork, .... it will take more than talk, more than ranting. Who is up for it?
[quote]Originally posted by zaxtor99
[b]The typical mmorpg mage or wizard.
Typically starts out really weak, but ends up by one as one of the most powerful, most damage dealing types of character one can play.
Typically gets by with cloth robes or even rags which are MUCH more affordable then the gleaming swords, sparkling metal armor suits worn by the warrior types.
Anyone can play a hack and slash warrior. Even a dumb ox.
[][quote]
Only if there's something seriously wrong with the implementation of the warrior class/archetype.
Tho the fact that you are right fairly often is another rant altogether. A good, thinking warrior-type should be both as challenging to play, and as effective to play, as a good, thinking mage-type.
Eh?
Maybe in AC, but in UO you could bloody well get them for free if you wanted to spend the time.
I disagree with the concept of making one class more powerful in the end game and 'balancing' it by making it harder for that class to get there (tho I don't mind so much the idea of one class being devestating at range and a pushover in melee.) Conan, the ultimate 'warrior' archetype, took on his fair share of mages.
I completely on board with the idea that mages need more depth in MMOs. I hate the idea of them just being nuke spammers, and the primary damage dealer. Call me crazy but every class should be able to deal damage, but I'm getting off track here.
The nuke spamming wizard prevalent in todays MMOs might as well be a guy with a giant gun. One of the things I loved about D&D (yeah the PnP version) was the fact wizards could be so versatile. They had spells that did stuff besides nuke things.
As far as reagents go... you can go too far with the idea. Nobody wants to run for six hours to find a reagent for a spell they use in every combat.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Ok its good to have classes that need realy thinking over to master.
But ive feeling you make this topic becouse now suddenly you are in some games not the uber guy anymore and cant brag about it:P
Games are played by many players these days not everybody have same intelligents.
So if you have a class like mages thats very hard to master you need intelligents so you be very good skilled to master it and this mage class have such strong offensive attacks anyone who can master this have a uber character and as i remember alot of them where idiots who brag about it how uber they where:P
So when most classes are same strenght and can beat any other class if you skilled player but you can do that with all classes that are in that game thats more fair.
But true the few butten bashing attack combos (think comes from consoles:()its idiotic but its a logic stap most players these days are casual and avarage(alot of ps2,xbox kids play wow now) it must be fast and simple no thinking.
So complex classes are of the past.
And becouse in past mages where so strong, wont say its logic that they can beat a warrior becouse theye simple hack and slash, thats stupid to, it should be that if any class you take how hard it is to master you should beat any other class if your best skilled player around.
Not one class if you master, can beat all even if a other player is more skilled but play a inferiror class thats stupid:P
Its only becouse you dont know better, you think a mages should be like in UO or AC, but i think it should be more like if spend enough time master a class you can beat also any other class if your skilled enough.
And i agree not with bashing 4 keys all classes should need somethinking to master and have abillitys to beat others not just one class.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Lol omg the arrogants you have:p
Get real what you want is have character if spend alot of time in it study it so when you master it becouse you know when it reach his cap and you have all whats needed for that class nobody can beat you.
Then you are the uberplayer of that server thats whole idea behind it and when some here point that out you come with your arrogant remarks.
Now you have find out that in new games like wow you suddenly cant be that uber guy anymore you want your old time back with that one class when master nobody can beat:p
Thats stupid:P
All classes should have a chance to beat other classes just be a person behind charcter skilled not character who do work for you becouse he is such powerfull class with biggest strongest attacks you can get with a character.
But true 4key attacks that everyclass have these days or even one butten kill attack thats stupid to:P
WOW=fps just go in battle grounds and spam your attacks no thinking needed thats also stupid:p
Downside also is these days with so many players who are casual and avarage will choose the class thats be known for been uber class as soon you have 90% server playing same class lol:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Bah. Magery _is_ too easy. We should require all MMO players that want to play a mage attend a magery school for 3 years until they can manifest magic themselves, as players, and once they can do that then they get to play a mage in the game. Any other way would just be too easy.
...Uhhhh No.
I don't want a "challenging" mmo so I can be the most uber character that nobody can beat anymore.
I simply want a challenging mmo where there is a price that you pay for high level magic spells that warriors can't use. I want an mmo where death actually means something and there is a stiff price to pay for it besides 90 seconds of your time.
RISK = REWARD. *** CHALLENGE = Boredom prevention over time.
But todays games are more about no risk, all reward. And it gets too boring too fast with nothing but instant gratification with no challenge.
I want a game that requires me to do more then hit the same 4 hotkeys over and over and over in all my battles.
And because of this, you're assumption that I wanna be the most uber dude in the game that nobody can beat is 100% wrong buddy. That wouldn't be challenging enough for me and I would quickly grow bored of that. I wanna be a level 25 dude who has prepared better and put myself in a more logical winning situation against a level 45 player and because of this it makes it a super close fight. Maybe he barely wins. Fine. But atleast that's a helluva lot more fun than simply spamming hot keys in the same pattern for the 10,000th time to get exactly the same result against exactly the same level mob. Ugh.
Some people just don't understand a guy who likes a little bit of damn challenge in a game. You people musy be all the same people who go out, spend $50 on a game, then find that the game is too challenging for you and put in 20 cheat codes to make yourself invincible. In essense this is the same to me as these no risk, all reward mmos of today. I'm scratching my head and asking "Don't all you players realize the FUN is gone from this type of gaming behavior?"
I dunno. If I ever win the $100 million dollor lottery, I guess I'll have to invest in my own mmo. And me and like a few people who actually like a challenge will play the game, while millions give their money to games like WOW instead. I guess I'd lose my money investment to have fun again. If I wanted to make money, I'd just make a new mmo that had graphics better then WOW. And I'd even make it simpler. I'd just have a cool hotkey for every damn class that was "Insta-level", and another hotkey for "Insta-gold" that put cool shit right in your pack. No fighting mobs needed. Take away that challenge too. Oh boy, people would love me and my game and I'd have 40 million players in 3 months and be rich as hell. Heh. Sad that this ridiculous BS isn't too far from the truth in essense.
- Zaxx
I vote 'none of the above.' Class differences should be a matter of style, not of power. It is stupid to say to the newbie "You must play a warrior until you learn the game." It is even more stupid to say to the veteran "Now that you know how to survive, you must play a mage or you'll be gimped."
That, to me, indicates that there's a problem with warriors in the games you've been playing; they've been gimped.
Playing a high-level warriors should involve just as much tactics as playing a high-level mage. It should not be "I'll just stand here and smash until one of us falls..." or worse - "I'll just stand here soaking damage and hope I don't die before the wizard wins the battle for me."