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Carrying capacity
Gouki4u
Member Posts: 215
One thing that I have always liked in Dungeons and Dragons is the fact your carrying capacity is limited by your strength to a cumulative weight. The problem is the weights for items in D&D are way too heavy. A greatsword does not weigh 15 pounds. I collect antique, and historically accurate reproduction swords. Trust me on this.
I do, however, much prefer this method as opposed to being limited by how many inventory slots the devs have chosen to put in your bag. This also means characters would have reasonable levels of strength relative to each other instead of the huge ramping up of stats prevalent in games like Diablo, or WoW.
I know this is a tiny issue for MMOs at large, but it one that has always been a pebble in my shoe.
I don't want to say I prefer this method because of realism because throwing that term around when talking about games is not all that useful, but it gives more meaning to how much you can carry, and how strong your character is.
In D&D a strength of 10 is an average human so a strength of 20 is really impressive, and usually reserved for brutish creatures like half orcs, or higher level characters. In Diablo you can end up with a strength of over 200. What does that even mean? Are you ten times as strong as when you began? The statistic loses any real meaning, and is just there for number crunching.
Also I'm of the opinion your abilities (stats and skill you assign your character) should determine your profession (how you play the game) rather than your class determining your starting stats.
Just some thoughts.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Comments
Ultima Online restricts your carrying capacity based on the combined weight of all items that you care and equip. Higher STR means you can carry more weight. Carry over your weight capacity for your STR and you slow to a crawl or simply can't move at all!
Asherons Call also limited carrying capacity by the weight VS STR formula. In AC, there were limited bag slots as well, but stacking 100 of one item in one slot had 100 times the weight on you as if you only had 1 of those same items in a bag slot.
This was a great design in UO and AC, just one of many reasons why UO and AC continues to be some of the best and deepest mmos available today. I'm sure there are several more mmos that use the same kind of formula, but can't think of them off hand.
btw, I agree 100% with you on this and find it makes a game much more immersive and umm "realistic" I guess you might say. ...Not that slaying dragons and carrying 10 swords and armor is realistic, but hey - you know what I mean
- Zaxx
It's hard to be objective when we are discussing fantasy.
What does saying someone has a strength of 10 mean? 17? Wth is that? And can someone that has a 20 in str but a 1 in int still be able to carry alot?
I tend to argue just for arguing sake so I apologize, but let me continue...
Stats are all relative to each game. I think that most game designers feel that people prefer the bigger numbers. So instead of a str of 16 you have one of 232 in one game. Plus modifiers. I stopped paying attention to my stats in WoW after some time because the rediculous numbers didn't really matter, I just knew I needed them to be higher...
I was always a pack rat so though I agree with you on str limited inventory I still prefer having bags/slots like WoW. If my caster char is lucky enough to find [UBER BreastPLATE of Awesome Slaying] i'd like to make sure that he is able to carry it.
I don't own any real-life weapons so I can't really comment but I am curious; how much does a real-life greatsword weigh? Tbh, 15lbs doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.
On abilities determining proffession as opposed to class:
I agree to a point but... But classes and professions have very little in common. Sure, a Warrior is more likely to become a Blacksmith or a Cleric/Priest is more likely to be one who gathers herbs/makes potions, but technically anyone should be able to persue whatever proffesion they like.
Classes do have an affect on starting stats if for no other reason than certain classes require certain stats to be better than others. You don't see many Warriors running around with 17 int and 8 str just like you don't see many Mages with 17 str and 8 int...
I'm probably taking things out of context so i'll let you correct my thinking where needed and i'll come up with more arguments/comments...
The heaviest sword on historical record that was used for battle weighed in at about 8 pounds. In reaissance Germany large two handed swords were very popular for a time, and eventually gave rise to "bearing swords" which were higly ornamental, and used mainly in parades and ceremonies. These beasts usualyl weighed up to 15 pounds.
A ton of reproduction swords are far too heavy to be accurate, and if you ever get the chance to compare one of these weighty repros with something more accurate you'll see a world of difference.
But back to my main topic!
One of my points was that the stats in WoW pretty much lose all meaning as you level. I'm not saying lower values are more realisitc, but they are easier to gauge relative strength between different characters.
I should have been more clear when I mentioned classes, and professions. I consider classes the archtypes that most games lock people into, and professions are occupations a character can learn, or leave behind.
So being a wizard or warrior can be a profession, and of course stronger characters will make better warriors, and more intelligent characters will make better wizards. A class defines who you are while a profession simply defines what you do.
I guess I just see things like classes, and inventory being managed by the space in your anti-gravity backpack of however many slots as dumbing down the game.
I hate to use the phrase "dumbing down" since I don't have the illusion I'm smarter than someone else because I prefer a more complex game system, but I can't think of a better one at the moment.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Heh, when you get down to it, taking any RPG/MMORPG off of paper/text and placing it into a graphic environment is kinda "dumbing it down."
My favorite thing about the fantasy world is what I have it pictured like in my head. Imagination > anything any game can hope to achieve. This doesn't apply to all games mind you, games like WoW are designed around an existing game universe that already has a set look and feel.
It is really hard to say which way things should and should not behave in a fantasy world, like we both have said. Everyone is going to look at an imaginary world differently. Class is an odd concept but it provides a basis for the game. Some games, like Ryzom, are completely classless. Anyone can learn or skip any of the "main" skills that they want. Other games like DDO are going to be very static class wise as that is the way the initial fantasy world was envisioned by someone.
In my fantasy novel reading I have very very rarely run into a character that was an uber bad ass jack of all trades. Even in the book world a char like that would be incredibly overpowered and boring. Most of us would like to obtain that uber bad ass level with our char's in the games we play though and even though we are dealing in fantasy/ make believe I don't see it as being real feasable that someone can be the best at everything.
Some form of structure is needed in games like these in order to ensure proper progression. As well as time syncs and what have you. Class/skill/profession structures serve that purpose and it, I can only assume, makes it easier on the dev/coder to maintain balance when things are setup this way.
I think I may be wandering off in la la land again in my typing though, you are prolly reading this and wondering "wth is this guy talking about??!!?" Let me assure you, I have NO idea, but I do a fairly decent job trying to sound smart... at least I think I do...
You raise several good points, kovah. You've strayed from the main topic, but so did I, and since I started the thread I say it's okay.
Yes translating a pen and paper game to a video game medium is in a way dumbing it down, but it is also nice because it can automate the stuff like saving throws, and roll modifiers. They are still included, but can be worked out for you. Dumbing down can be taken too far though. I much prefer the huge assortment of spells in D&D to the anemic selection mages get in WoW. A game could strip everything down so far as to only have one spell for each purpose like one damaging spell, one that holds foes, and one that heals, but I doubt anyone would enjoy that.
You're right that no game can hope to be as vivid as the human imagination, and since games come from the imaginations of others people will often prefer their own vision. That's just the nature of the beast, and I don't think it is really dumbing anything down.
I don't think class is such an odd concept. It is based on the archtypes we have seen in fantasy literature, and folklore. Rangers in D&D are obviously inspired by Aragorn from LOTR. Class is also a useful concept because it defines roles for the players, but I feel it can be too restrictive because it puts players on a set path. Warriors can only learn warrior related things for the rest of their career (unless they multi-class, but that is a whole other can of worms), and that is fine for a campaing of D&D, or a single player RPG which has an end, but MMOs are expanded worlds. With that expanded world should come some freedom. Players should be able to learn different things, or change roles providing they are capable at both.
Yes there should be limits to this so players don't become good at everything. I've also never read a book, or seen a movie in which the character is good at everything. Characters without weaknesses are boring.
I envision something like this:
Characters begins with natural abilities like strength, and intelligence. Then over this they learn a number of skills, and some skills will be better suited to players with different strengths. Then according to these overall abilities, and skills they pick a profession. This doesn't even have to be something they choose so much as how they decide to play the game. Someone who tops out their strength, but it low on intelligence will obviously make a better fighter than a wizard.
Now I know this seems like just a more complicated way to steer a player towards an archtype. Why not just let the player choose between a warrior who starts with high strength, and a wizard who is very intelligent?
Variation is the reason. In class based games at certain levels you will see almost all of the same class using the same gear. At level 20 this or that sword is the best in the game, and everyone wants it. In a system in which the fighter choose skills specific to weapon types (most real soldiers aren't trained with every weapon) fighters with different strengths with choose different weapons. A very agile fighter might be really good with a rapier while a very strong fighter uses a greatsword. I think this should be reflected in different fighting styles for each weapon. It is no longer about what does the best DPS, but what kind of fighter you want to be.
What was this thread about? Carrying capacity? I hi-jacked my own thread!
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
We think alike on most of this stuff. I just doubt we will see anything like that anytime soon. At least nothing that will exceed well eoungh to maintain its life. The static progression along with the static gear/items is much easier, again I am assuming, to create/maintain/support than an incredibly dynamic environment that I would love.
What we need is the f*cking matrix. If someone could get to work and get that sh*t made i'll be happy. Plug me in dammit!
What's this? Comparing games to real life? If you can give me a decent reason how wearing a piece of armor or holding a sword can make me faster, smarter, and stronger simply by touching it, I'll listen to what you have to say.
Easy...
Everybody runs faster with a knife.
Duh.
I think he made it clear that he realized that he was talking about realism in a fantasy world. How bout offering something more objective than your response? It's a decent discussion, don't post/read it if it bothers you soo much.
Okay I did use the example soldiers are not usually trained with every weapon. I was going to say warriors, but then someone would have said, "What real warriors?"
The point is not to make it more realistic. The point is variation, and freedom.
And I hate items that boost stats anyway. Magic items should do something interesting.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
I like the D&D system myself, I prefer the ruleset used in BGSOA to the one in Neverwinter Nights, I dont know too much about D&D but I really like how it is in these games.
Regarding limits so that players dont become good at everything, what if there were more than your usual 6 attributes, and they came in antagonistic pairs.
An example might be willpower verses say flexible thinking or wits, somebody with a strong determination will be so focussed on one idea at a time they will be less likely to think laterally and see the problem from a different angle.
Every boost in one attribute reduces the other in the pair by the same amount, then it would be impossible to have every ability maxed out ever during the game regardless of what magic items you have. An all rounder might have both at 50% but that will exclude them from some game content/class/profession.
dont forget that if your avatar dude only carries a can a spinich that he can carry like twice as much stuff for like 12 hours! ok, ok so maybe not spinich, but what about a str buff or str potion. or a str ring or necklace. all i know is heman wouldnt have made a very good mage, and lil harry potter wouldnt make a very good warrior with a 30 pound axe is what im thinkin.
TBH, I like the variation and freedom that NOT having STR limits on my carrying capacity brings. (OMG I'M BACK ON TOPIC!!!)
Almost everything in these games is unrealistic as, IMO, it should be in any fantasy world. I enjoy these games because it is an "escape" from the real world. The less things are like this planet Earth in the games that I play the better.
I also don't object to stats boosts, but I also wouldn't mind having magical weapons do magical things. In most fantasy type novels magical weapons typically don't do a whole lot for the wielder. Maybe they have been enchanted to weigh close to nothing or (Drizzt reference) maybe it glows a little when you are close to a goblinoid, but you don't typically read about a weapon that has a 5% chance to make the wielder invincible for 60 seconds...
Straying... straying....
I suppose STR limits aren't that bad cause at the same time running out of space in my backpack when I'm in the middle of grinding is frustrating too. It's also odd(using WoW ex) that my 16 slot backpack can be filled with 16 breastplates OR 16 different herbs and be considered full.
/shrug
Hell, I dunno what I want... Oh wait, yes I do, the Matrix... No, not that sh*tty game, the real g*d d*mned thing...
Yeah the 16 breastplate vs 16 herbs is one of the reasons I don't like the slot method. You also have to decide which items stack, and how many there are to a stack with this system. Warlocks know the pain of not having something stack.
One serious advantage the slot system has is being more orderly. Anybody who has played UO knows just how cluttered your inventory can get.
If there are no limits at all on inventory (I'm not sure how that could even be implemented) item farming would become that much easier for IGE.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.