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The "to hit" roll is superfluous in video games
Gouki4u
Member Posts: 215
We've all experienced it. You swing at your enemy, and nothing happens but the word "miss" popping up over his head even though he didn't move, and is standing right there. Sometimes there will be an animation of him dodging, or blocking your blow, and that at least is something, but I believe the idea of a "to hit" roll is superfluous in video games.
Let me explain.
Pen and paper role playing games have always used some manner of die roll to determine if you can hit your oppenent with an attack. This roll is modified by your skill, and your oppenents armor class most frequently. Other factors come into play, but the basic idea is making a roll to see how your attack turns out. This was necessary in these games because there is no physical representation of your character, and your enemy, or at least not ones that interact. You might have miniatures on the table, but they repsond to your commands.
When RPGs first moved to the medium of video games they usually let one player control a group. The "to hit" roll was useful here too because ctronlling the combat of four characters in real time wasn't possible. Some things had to be automated.
Now enter the MMO. You control a single character at a time, and there is a very complex way of representing that character, and your enemy. You can see how they interact on the screen, but you still have the "to hit" roll. At this point that die roll is not necessary.
I know some of you are saying, "But we don't want twitch combat," or "You need the die roll to base things from skill." I'll answer those concerns now before I continue.
Take the example of two melee combatants. Give each one the ability to attack, block, parry, and doge. The timing of these actions would become essential if they were player activated instead of "you have 15% chance to block at you current skill level." The player swings at the gnoll, but it parries, and counter-attacks. The player actually needs to respond in time to dodge, block, or parry. Where the character's skills would come into play is how fast the character does these actions, and how well. A more skilled character could doge back further, get his shield up faster, or have more counter attack options after parrying the blow. The skills would still matter, but the player is forced to actually react to his opponent. This is much more engaging than simply mashing your best attacks in a certain order until the enemy is dead.
The skill of the fighter would allow for more powerful, quicker attacks. A unskilled swordsman would have only a few basic options in a fight, but a highly skilled swordsman would be faster, hit harder, and have more attacks at his disposal.
The unengaging nature of combat in MMOs is something that has bothered me since they moved to the realm of 3D graphics, but I've finally put my finger on exactly how to change it.
This could work for ranged combat too without resorting to a player's FPS skills. A character using a ranged weapon would be able to target an enemy in range if there is a clear line of sight to that enemy. The archer would then track that enemy much like the z-targeting system in the most recent Zelda games. More skilled archers could track faster enemies more easily, and fire shots much faster. A skilled archer could also switch targets much faster so that someone with a high archery skill would be able to take out several opponents before they get within melee range. Think about how Legolas goes nuts with his bow in the LOTR movies. A more skilled archer's attacks would also be more damaging because he would know where to aim.
So what about the role of items in a system like this? They really wouldn't be changed much. Firing rates, and damage would change with the relative skill the wielder has, but some items would always be faster, or hit harder than others.
But what about armor? If there is no to hit roll what is the use of armor? I'm glad you asked! Think of armor as damage mitigation. Instead of making someone harder to hit with a high AC armor would negate some of the damage done by the blows. Plate armor would be very effective against a sword, but a rogue could slip his dagger in the gap between plates, a warrior with a mace could crush, and dent the armor, and an archer could penetrate it with a longbow, or heavy crossbow.
Anyway the basic goal of this kind of combat system is to get the player more involved. I hate games in which you que up some moves, and go get a sandwich.
Thoughts?
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Comments
So go play CounterStrike, UT, or any other of the dozens of twitch-combat games out there. The type of gameplay you seek already exists.
i agree with you completely gouki and believe the the combat system you are describing is the next step in evolution for mmos in the combat sense... i also knew that the first comment to adress your comment wud be 'go play counter strike' blach blah blah etc etc.....why people hold back the genre and do not encourage i have no idea....the bonuses of this combat system far outweigh the negative points....im sure i have created a thread similar to this so i cant be arsed going into detail but yea gouki you hit it on the head mate
C
No, actually, the type of gameplay I seek doesn't exist.
I happen to play those games as well, but I'm looking for an MMO that has genuinely involving combat.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
GIRO, I'm glad somebody agrees with me. I also knew I would get at least one person telling me to get out of their genre. I also think this is the next step in MMO evolution simply because boring combat is one of the huge complaints I see everywhere MMOs are discussed, and many developers promise more exciting combat.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
I agree with you completely and I would love to see a system like that in an MMORPG. In my opinion, player skill should always play a big role in an MMORPG. skills and armor should enhance the player's ability. Not like in WoW, where a subpar player with enough time to spare can become god-like in PvP because he has access to "phat lewtz".
I find it interesting that although with each generation of MMORPGs, graphics get better, the combat stays relatively the same "click-and-go-grab-a-beer" type. I don't know if it's either because people (and the developers) are afraid of change and thus go with whatever worked before, or is this genre really filled with players who have a reaction time of a sloth who has had one too many Long Island Iced Teas? I don't know.
I do, however, recognize that there are people with various disabilities who enjoy playing these types of games and for whom twitch combat might not be an option. Is this the reason why MMORPGs haven't graduated to the next step? Because the developers really take people with disabilities into consideration when designing their combat systems? For this I really have no answer.
The chronicles of spellborn will have it. Theres no lockon system at all, you kinda have to aim at enemies like in a fps. Also, crits in the game will not be based on dice rolls, but on combos that you make.
I hope that hey can get it working right
If there are too many mmorpgs that has the same cookie cutter type like fantasy with point and click and dice rolling combat system and stat grinding, then sure it would be sort of boring but I guess thats how the majority of MMO games like.
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
im geussing you meant mmo gamers with your final comment
but to the point...no not true at all it isnt because thats what the majority of mmo gamers like..it what the devs like... lets not change a gaming system for 10 years becuase its easy to do and all gamers expect mmos to use this system...the more we use the system the easier it is to make the game and the quicker the $$$$ go in our pockets
C
I highly doubt the combat in MMOs has stayed with the point, and click interface because of people with disabilities. I think they just have gone with these systems because people point to it, and say, "This is what an RPG is like."
I also realize not everyone wants a "twitchier" combat system, but can anyone argue against making combat in MMOs more exciting? The biggest problem even the most well executed MMOs have is that they eventually feel like work, and I believe this is at least partially do to the tedious nature of the gameplay.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Although your idea itself is interesting unto itself what about the variable of an add on mechanic? Such as a buff or item that is a flat +dmg -to hit, or +hit - dmg and such? WOuld you just do this based upon skill and make items not only class specific but also build specific?
More I think the less I think the the to hit roll is needless, more just misused. Just my thoughts.
why pvp and not pve?
C
Well obviously if I did away with the to hit roll items would no longer have bonuses to hit. They could still have damage bonuses, or boosts to skills, and basic attributes like strength.
As far as items becoming build specific this could be easily avoided by making any skill boost an item gives relate directly to the skill needed to use that item in the first place. A sword would only boost a swordmanship skill instead of something else for example.
And anyway some items are build specific even in games that feature classes. An intelligence boosting ring will always be more useful to wizard than a warrior.
The game I propose would not have classes, but that is a whole other issue.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
I guess I need to explain my ideas a little more clearly. They are fully formed in my mind, but sometimes things get left out when I post them as I usually just use the stream of consciousness method.
I'm also a fan of strategy, but I don't think a more interactive combat system would take away from it. First let me say that spamming the right mouse button is not the direction I want to go. I've played the SWG post NGE, and it is crap. Attack speed, and the way different attacks string together would still be based on character skill rather than the player with fastest reaction time.
Also characters would still have more than one attack so spamming one button is definately not an option. There would not be an auto-attack, but you would have to string attacks together, and you would gain more kinds of attacks as your skill increases.
A character fighting with a sword for example might begin with a couple of basic cuts. They could be activated in sequence by the same button since they are basic, but clicking faster wouldn't do anything since attack speed is based on skill with that weapon. After a while the character gains the ability to use his shoulder to bull into his foe, and knock them off balance to make them more vulnerable to a follow up attack. This would be activated by a different button because the player would choose when to use it. After knocking his foe off balance (and thus making him less able to parry, dodge, or block) the player uses a couple of his basic attacks which would more readily hit a dazed opponent.
That sounds like strategy to me.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
See EVE has something like this. You can aim a turret at a target, and you can miss, but its not based on a diceroll or is random like in SWG, nor is it something that if you miss 1/10 times then you will always miss 1/10 times nothing you can do about it(Pre-CU SWG was like that). Its based at least with turrets on tracking speed of the turret and the speed(transversal velocity of the target). And damage is calculated by the size of the target. Hitting a small ship with a large turret is a bit more difficult, but not impossible there are target painters and things that you can modify it so that you can hit them.
I agree with you completely, lots of MMORPGs are horrible with the cut-n-paste and employ no strategy or tactics. SWG Pre-cu had this problem typically a profession would have maybe 3-4 but usually just 1-2 special attacks that they used at master level. SWG NGE is even worse, you could have a lvl 42 attack that does more damage than a level 12 attack, so why would you ever use the level 12 attack again? Why even put it in the game? Its essentially useless now.
Combat now in most MMORPGs is based on old systems, like singleplayer RPGs and pen and paper games. Those things served a function because Player vs Player Interaction happened less, and essentially all bosses were just a higher level boss with more HP and better resists than the lest one.
Diablo II Synergies which came LONG after the game was released shows how you could do it. It made the old skills like Clay Golem useful for even your Fire Golem ability. Now if you ask me the real implementation of Synergies, came from the player interaction part. A Necromancer with most points in Clay Golem was useless unless he did his Power build/ FOTM. Now not only were they useless in PvP but combat in PvE was a bit harder late game if you didn't place your points right.
Well if you only wanted +skill or +dmg or such for a skill only possible on a weapon that could work. Such as +slashing with a sword etc (or just +dmg to your normal sword dmg w/e). I didn't think of that honestly.
But as soon as you want to not have classes you have to start giving any stat a 2ndry asset. When you remove classes you remove nichey specilizations. Which overall is no big deal if you aloow for this. yes a +int ring may be of the greatest benefit to a caster, but in a non class based ssytem thing that aren't specific can be very hard to sell on an open market. now, if you give int an attribute of increased chance to evade (just a random though, but if you are smart then you are prolly gonna evade more attacks since you guessed they could happen) or anything else that gives the stat value...well now you have created a market.
No, I don't think of things as seperate ever. Yes, I think too much. :P
DDO has this type of combat.. roughly. If you want to avoid an attack, you move out of the way. If you want to block, you hold down SHIFT. If you want to tumble out of the way, you hold down SHIFT and press a movement key in the direction you want to move. You can dodge a fireball if you react fast enough. Fighting can be done by mouse click or by auto-attack (not advised if you also cast or need to do other triggered events in combat). However, when you're swinging (clicking) your hits are rolled on a d20 compared to the creatures AC. So even though you may be right in front of him, because his AC, you either did no damage or missed all together. Some things have reflex checks and other saving throws.
so...
To the OP, congrats to you for not just posting about a problem you see.... but you show you are a TRUE constructive critic by attempting to post ideas, solutions, answers, TO the problem you see!
Here's a question to the OP Goukiu4U,
What about the problem of LAG? This is the main problem facing MMORPGs when it comes to leaning more towards the skill of the person at the keyboard vs the skill of the character in the game.
For example, you can have character 1 who is the most master, uber, archer on the server. He battles a newbie archer who has bad skills. In current MMORPGs, even if there is a LAG spike, and the person at the keyboard either can no longer control his character, gets disconnected, gets lower frame rate, or simply gets a regular lag spike, his uber level character will keep on aiming, keep on fighting, keep on killing the target, keep on never missing.
Using your idea, the person with the best internet connection will win. The person who has less ping, less lag, will win.
Any ideas on how to attack the LAG monster?
thats an entirely different argument xplororor...but valid none the less......the lag monster haunts us all, we will have to start shouting at connection providers to solve that problem
C
Ah, the dreaded lag monster rears its ugly head. This is something that can kill you in an instant in an FPS, and since that genre went online lag death has been the leading cause of death if you believe everyone who blames it. The problem has lessened as network code was tightened, and new technology developed, but these of course are much smaller worlds than MMOs so their server load isn't as insanely huge.
I'm not a network engineer so I can't really say what could help the lag problem. It has gotten better over the years. I experienced more lag in Diablo than I did when I played WoW.
So until the day MMO world run as smooth as a 16 player deathmatch the only advice I can give is on the consumer end: don't play on dial up.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
OP,I too seek a game just like yours. And I believe that Darkfall,should it ever get a release,may promise that.
I don't agree with your 'Zelda' Z-targeting system however for ranged attacking. If I'm right,from the Darkfall alpha videos it would appear that the magic attacks were aimed 100% manually. That I'd like. To hit a target you'd have to aim precisely at them. Yes,people would dodge those attacks; however,you could aim ahead of them in the (small) time it takes to cast the spell,and they'd run straight into it. Or you could fire a blast damage spell,and aiming it precisely means you can damage the right group of people in exactly the way you want to.
Admittingly I think this is more a PvE-effective concept,but it could have use in PvP. Take WOW. Ranged mages usually have to be quite close to a skirmish to cast their automated spells. But if they could aim their spells further,but with decreased spell effectiveness (fizzles out over distance) they could stand atop a high tower and manually fire spells from long distance like they're meant too.
And when the opposing team is under attack from several mages doing their sniper bombardment,then other units,say a ROGUE would be effective in meleeing the mage off their tower without being spotted on the way. But then a guarding warrior could spot the rogue and challenge them in quick-dagger vs powerful-axe combat,manually aimed with real-time shield blocking and sword swinging. A bit like D & D mixed with Jedi Academy I guess.
I am really HOPING Darkfall is this game you describe OP.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Personally I prefer very automated combat.
I don't want to button mash or work my character in fight. I just want to click once and let him do his thing.
I understand that other players want a more involved combat system, and I see no reason why these players can't be catered for in the same game.
In Diablo for example, If I play a warrior, it is esentially a no brainer I just click the monster and that's it. And this is what I enjoy. If I play a mage however I must work a variety of spell effects depending on the type of fight. And this is what my friends enjoy. Both of our play styles are supported in this one game. The two methods of play need not be mutually exclusive.
I have arthritus in both index fingers from clicking away at MMO games. For the next 50 years I will be in permanent physical pain because of this.
The more mouse work I have to do to play a game the less I want to play it. I own a powerful computer that can automate all of these processes. I see no reason why I should have to "play it" myself in this day and age.
The defining moments of PnP roleplay were not for me the Caves of Chaos moments where your nicely painted figures are placed on a map and the dice rolled to individually calculate each of a hundred goblins you slay. If this is to be a part of the game, (and I hope it still is) please let me do this on autopilot and just watch the pretty pictures. The actual figure movements and dice rolls, I don't want to bother with. This is the computer age. Automate it please.
Save the combat complexity for a boss fight or PvP. In short I would like an "auto grind" option for combat. And I don't see this as an inhibition in any way to providing an indepth and invovled new combat system either. If the Ai can fight automatically, then I should be able to also.
This for me would make MMORPG's more exciting. The tedious gameplay would become background stimulus while I did something else. (Like watch TV read a book, tickle available girls, use the chatroom functions of the game).
When people will pay others to play the game for them, it might be a sign to include that service as an automated feature of the game for free. Let the game play the game for them.
Provide a decent auto-combat switch.
What does Lag have to do with the ISPs? Lag in an MMO, that is server side lag, is mainly created by not adequate equipment and bad/sloppy netcode. If my ISP screws up I get disconnects or can't connect at all, but that is not a matter of Lag in-game. I know, some ISPs are bit backward in technology or their equipment configured (deliberately) badly so they do cause lag in-game, but usually there are alternatives to those, at last where I live.
@ topic: While I understand the OPs points, I certainly wouldn't like to play such a game. Not that I think it wouldn't work (eg one fo the best real time combat systems imo has "The Revenant") but I see more practical problems.
1.) Lag. It's an issue, and sofar the differences in connection are there, for various reasons. Don't wan't go deeper here.
2.) Casual vs. hardcore-gamer: FPS style games promote those that can play more have more "training" and react better. This leaves casual gamers at a disadvantage. The current systems even out the ground a bit.
I'd be for a more refining of the current "point and click" systems as the right direction. EVE's system is an interesting step, since there are far more factors involved than just your "equipment" or your rl "reaction and skill". Combat needs to be more complex in a way that more things matter, than just your equipment and level. Exciteemnt comes from unknown factors and uncertainity to a certain degree, as msot systems are too "predictable". Taking away from that might be a first step to make comabt more exciting, requiring more thinking on spot without making it too much FPS.
Btw, not all pen&paper RPGs use armor as to-hit modifier, actually those which do are the minority, more often they reduce damage - just a minor nitpick.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
This kind of reminds me of EQ2's heroic opportunities. Great idea, badly implemented. The idea is that if you do a certain combo of skills the net effect is a special attack. However that was very situational, some groups just ignored it completely. I do like the idea of a slightly more involved combat system. How about a black & white wiggle the mouse method for casting spells? Trouble is someone will just macro whatever convoluted design is thrown at them and assign it to one key anyway. Like those really long key sequences for Tekken, you can either do them manually or get a programmable game pad.