I both love and hate pvp i started online game back in like 95ish with old text games larps,muds etc etc.PvP use to be fun and mature.Now days alot not ALL gamers are in the ages of 14 and up average anyways and alot of em dont even know the concepts behind a mmorpg.
Now if game makers would be smart and make seperate servers for both carebares rpers and the pvper i think we would all be happy.Cant force people into pvp and you cant force them into rping are being a carebare.Online games are almost like real life everygamer has a certain lifestyle or game style in the way they wanna play their characters ingame.Only thing i hate about the pvper i see even postin latly seem to feel they need to force people into pvp.
And my message prolly dont make any sense but ive never been good into putting my thoughts into writing.
Originally posted by OSYYRUS Your right, that might work for rational thinking, level minded people. However, as stated earlier, a very few can give the majority a bad name. It really only takes a very small % of the PvPing public to make a game hell for new players. This small % is not going to care about faction points or not being able to go to cities. They will have alts and friends to do their bidding in these places. They are also not going to give a flying F about the peons and will just slay them, cause face it. Dead or alive the peon is still gonna remember who killed him. The problem with Open PvP that no company has really mastered yet, is that they set up a very strict heirarchy, where the Griefers who get in early sit at the top and dictate to the rest of the players how the game is played(yes, this happens on all MMO's, but in Open PvP it effects everyone). They get to stay there cause they are the most powerfull and everyone else is just fodder. Some of you guys ASSUME people will act honorably in these systems, but Pantastic (just from your posts I can see this) and I KNOW that at least a good % will act the exact opposite and abuse anything and everything possible.
Well, yes and no. You will never elimiate all the jerks from any enviroment you just have to accept this. I played WoW on PvP servers both as horde an alliance, but not counting BGs most of my PvP deaths happened from ppl killing my exiting an instance while loading and unable to act. WoW does'nt even have FFA PvP nor a PvP penalty...and generally all that happens in griefing. No risk, all reward leads to griefing. There is little reason to fight back since your honor is based on dmg you inflict so it may take 20 ppl to take a ?? lvl player down, but they get nothign for it overall. they might as well ignore the whole situation.
Things don't have to be equal to be balanced. Lets say it takes 5 players of X lvl to kill 1 player of Y lvl. Assume that as fact. Just because there is no real benefit for player of Y lvl to kill the lower lvl players does not mean there shoudln't be benefit for the lower lvl players to team up and kill a solo higher lvl. At first you might think this will create a band of low lvl twinks killing higher lvl, but in the end it would create roaming factions. YOu eliminate the bonus of being alone you reduce griefing overall sinc it i hard to grief a group. I always wondered why WoW gives a group XP bonus, but not an honor bonus...
There are still ways to add solo content, just don't make it pvp focused. Use something similar to the DAoC Catacombs, or FFXI promys. But... that would require a lil innovation ; ; so I don't see happening soon.
After a point ppl cheat in any MMO really. Ppl buy currency, ppl buy epics or +1s or HQs, thier avatars, or a structure. The key isn't to try to eliminate cheaters but to reward those who put in effort, since cheaters rarely put in effort.
I believe games are designed with pvp in mind or not in mind. Take DDO for example. It was designed where there won't be any pvp. If it's ever added, which is unlikely, it would most likely change the classes so much that the people who played it for the pve would leave. Now, take a game like RF Online. It was designed with pvp in mind and if pvp went away, what would be left? The same could be said for many other games.
Is ganking bad? It is if it's combined with griefing. Take this example. When I was playing WoW, if I saw an opposing faction I would engage in combat. If that person was 10 levels below me and didn't stand a chance, oh well. However, I wouldn't stand around and corpse camp that person. I would continue on to whatever destination I had in mind. If this happened to me I was more than happy if the person didn't camp me and just killed me because it's what you do on a pvp server. I expected confrontation. It was the ones that ran by and waved that seemed shifty to me!
So, do I think FFA has a place in certain games? Absolutely. Should it be in every game? No, there are some games where a FFA pvp environment would disrupt the rest of the game too much. That's the balance the developers have to work on. Luckily some games where pvp is optional offer pvp and normal servers so you play where you feel most comfortable. Other games have areas where you're protected or safer so you have a place to go for refuge when necessary.
i dunno why people keep trying to think of a dev designated reward/punishment system. The community of players are perfectly able to develop our own reward/punishment system. Let the devs spend more time on game content and less time on restricting the in game society.
A few things:
1) 99.99% of all random gankers do it because they are bored. If you can entertain the gankers with something else (maybe game content? *gasp*) you will have less gankers.
2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with.
3) people who play MMORPGs are role players. We will develop a society on our own. We don't need some game developer to tell us that elves hate orcs because protectors will hate killers. Some of us are protectors and some of us are killers. We will play the way we want to play. The online society will establish norms. Some people will follow them, and some people will rebel against them.
I think that game developers waste alot of resource trying to steer the way we play. We don't need an NPC kingdom to follow. We don't need NPC cities. We don't need NPCs to tell us we should go kill Monster X so we can get some kind of phat loot. Make dungeons fun to fight in and players will go fight in dungeons. NPCs are a crutch to attempt to steer PvE actions.
P.S. i often hear people say that they don't want to deal with griefers and smack talkers in game because they deal with it enough IRL. My question is, what RL do you live in?! If some smart ass punk was in my face insulting me, i would knock the shit out of him. I'm sorry if you have to deal with people like that IRL, but maybe you should stand up for yourself. Most of the people i deal with IRL are considerate or at least civil because they have to live with the consequences of their actions. Alot of the people i deal with online are rude and inconsiderate because they don't have to worry about consequences.
Originally posted by kahnz i dunno why people keep trying to think of a dev designated reward/punishment system. The community of players are perfectly able to develop our own reward/punishment system. Let the devs spend more time on game content and less time on restricting the in game society. A few things: 1) 99.99% of all random gankers do it because they are bored. If you can entertain the gankers with something else (maybe game content? *gasp*) you will have less gankers. 2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with. 3) people who play MMORPGs are role players. We will develop a society on our own. We don't need some game developer to tell us that elves hate orcs because protectors will hate killers. Some of us are protectors and some of us are killers. We will play the way we want to play. The online society will establish norms. Some people will follow them, and some people will rebel against them. I think that game developers waste alot of resource trying to steer the way we play. We don't need an NPC kingdom to follow. We don't need NPC cities. We don't need NPCs to tell us we should go kill Monster X so we can get some kind of phat loot. Make dungeons fun to fight in and players will go fight in dungeons. NPCs are a crutch to attempt to steer PvE actions. P.S. i often hear people say that they don't want to deal with griefers and smack talkers in game because they deal with it enough IRL. My question is, what RL do you live in?! If some smart ass punk was in my face insulting me, i would knock the shit out of him. I'm sorry if you have to deal with people like that IRL, but maybe you should stand up for yourself. Most of the people i deal with IRL are considerate or at least civil because they have to live with the consequences of their actions. Alot of the people i deal with online are rude and inconsiderate because they don't have to worry about consequences.
The actual intentional striking of someone, with intent to harm, or in a "rude and insolent manner" even if the injury is slight. Or in one word, Battery.
Originally posted by kahnz i dunno why people keep trying to think of a dev designated reward/punishment system. The community of players are perfectly able to develop our own reward/punishment system. Let the devs spend more time on game content and less time on restricting the in game society. A few things: 1) 99.99% of all random gankers do it because they are bored. If you can entertain the gankers with something else (maybe game content? *gasp*) you will have less gankers. But a good portion of your 99% do it because they like to be "l33t" and "pwn" all the "n3wb5" 2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with. I would agree that YOU fit this category. But again, it may not be the people posting here that ruin FFAPVP (I have been converted, gotten some great responses to this post), but the people that WILL ruin it will flock there. 3) people who play MMORPGs are role players. We will develop a society on our own. We don't need some game developer to tell us that elves hate orcs because protectors will hate killers. Some of us are protectors and some of us are killers. We will play the way we want to play. The online society will establish norms. Some people will follow them, and some people will rebel against them. I agree with ya on most of this, I disagree with your assumtion that "Protectors" will be able to prevent "Killers" from ruining the game for new players. The need a few little dev given tools. Once again, you have to protect your new players or your game will die. I think that game developers waste alot of resource trying to steer the way we play. We don't need an NPC kingdom to follow. We don't need NPC cities. We don't need NPCs to tell us we should go kill Monster X so we can get some kind of phat loot. Make dungeons fun to fight in and players will go fight in dungeons. NPCs are a crutch to attempt to steer PvE actions. I agree with ya. I'm 100% pro-sandbox design. What needs to happen are behind the scenes systems set up to not only aid in player interaction, but aid in player driven content. Systems is a bad word. Tools fits much better. P.S. i often hear people say that they don't want to deal with griefers and smack talkers in game because they deal with it enough IRL. My question is, what RL do you live in?! If some smart ass punk was in my face insulting me, i would knock the shit out of him. I'm sorry if you have to deal with people like that IRL, but maybe you should stand up for yourself. Most of the people i deal with IRL are considerate or at least civil because they have to live with the consequences of their actions. Alot of the people i deal with online are rude and inconsiderate because they don't have to worry about consequences. Well, first off, I live in NY. , 2ndly so you would knock the shit outa him huh? Well, now imagine you are an 8 year old kid and you are being harassed by a 35 year old Hell's Angel. Still standing up for yourself? No, you are doing nothing, cause you have no choice. This is why we don't let Hell's Angels kill off our 8 year olds in real life. The same human condition is true in MMO's, only your talking about removing all the limitations. How long you think people will last if we kill off all our young? How long you think your game is gonna last? Yeah the 8 year old can call 911 in the real word, what option does a Noob have in an MMO? In the real world most people have at least a moral obligation to do something, that moral obligation is severely diluted in an MMO.
[quote]Originally posted by OSYYRUS [b]I really don't understand you guys. What makes you have the right to ruin other people's game? If you want a FFA system, that means you want to be able to kill anyone, anytime. Which basically means, you want to be able to kill people who don't want to PvP.
Why would someone who doesn't want to PvP be on a server that allows FFA PvP, unless it was the only decent game in town or the developers promoted it as being something else?
When you ask that everybody be subjected to YOUR rules,
At this point I could only do that by asking for every game and every server that doesn't follow my rules to shut down, thereby forcing everyone else to either quit gaming or play on servers that do follow my rules. Not only would it be a ridiculously unrealistic request, it would be completely against my philosophy regarding gaming (ie. play what you like.)
With the plethora of PvM and restricted-PvP games out there, it's actually the *non-PvP* players asking everybody to be subjected to their rules when they argue against the viability of ffa-pvp games. When they were more limited, I was actually in favour of adding servers with greater restrictions - so the folks who felt that open-PvP ruins the game for them could enjoy their game without interference from me.
[quote]So tell me, what gives you the right in on online game to say that YOU should be able to kill anyone, anytime? The only difference between these two systems is that one allows for griefing and one doesn't, [quote]
Please. Griefing doesn't require ffa-pvp. Hell, it doesn't even require direct PvP; I can think of a thousand ways to grief you in a no-PvP game, and my sole temptation towards grief-play is to prove to folks like you that a PvP-toggle is insufficient protection from it.
I just want a game where the players are part of the environment, not seperate entities interacting with it. A player-driven economy is one aspect to that; the potential for PvP, unhindered by artificial restrictions*, is another. If someone griefs me - either by ganking me, or just following my tamer around and killing everything I try to tame while hiding behind a pvp switch - I want to be able to take direct action against him instead of putting up with him until I've got enough evidence and he's bugged enough other people to convince an admin to boot him.
You've got plenty of worlds that cater to you. Why do you care if one or two try to cater to me?
Originally posted by kahnz i dunno why people keep trying to think of a dev designated reward/punishment system. The community of players are perfectly able to develop our own reward/punishment system. Let the devs spend more time on game content and less time on restricting the in game society.
There are two things the players need the devs for in that field: providing the tools necessary to actually apply a reward/punishment system, and ensuring that 'anti-social' behaviour does not give so much of an edge that the consequences are laughable.
Originally posted by Kaos&Light There are two things the players need the devs for in that field: providing the tools necessary to actually apply a reward/punishment system, and ensuring that 'anti-social' behaviour does not give so much of an edge that the consequences are laughable.
Which is why i think that consequences should be harsh, but the punishment delivered by the players themselves. I think that developers should offer the tools AND add the content. However, rather than thinking of content as just 'something for me to do', I think that content should be elements added to the world that effect the balance of power.
For example, if a game featured highly sought after trade routes managed by the large merchant families, any added trade route might shift the balance of power between these houses. Conflict would arise between these groups as they compete to get control of it, and hence why PVP would flourish. Players could choose sides between the merchant families, or they could choose no side and merely seek to unstablize the stranglehold that these families have on the world economy. Imagine, if siding with the King you could conspire against the merchant families to give more power to the state, so that the king could gain more control. Diplomacy, Economy, Politics are what would give the Combat side of PVP a flair we aint seen yet folks. You want a reason to gank, that would be it. Where ganking is gameplay and griefing is something else (most likely made up by the pricks among us, they'll always be there).
It would also mean that each shard would be fundamentally different to others in terms of power balance and the state of the world. Great stories of intrigue, deception and corruption would be made by the players, as then they are history makers rather than history players. I don't want to play someone else's history, i want to make my own. Dynamic Worlds!! yes please.
Originally posted by fizzle322 Don't play pvp games, stay on carebear servers. You have your fun, I have mine. But don't come to a pvp game and start barking at people. I like open pvp servers because it discourages whiners from playing. I'm not here to take potshots at carebears but you're making it really hard for me not to insult you.
Unfortuantely, part of the current trend seems to be to mix and match PvP and Pve elements in the same gameworld or to allow the PvP in that world to impinge on the PvE.
My whole point is that a FFAPvP system gives the players the ability to create their own systems. They create their own reasons for PvP.
In DAoC, the RvR has a game designed goal. Take keeps and get the relics. That was great for a while, but more often than not, people just run in 8 man gank squads or just in zergs and don't mess with the keeps or relics. Players just wanna play. Most of us don't want some code writer telling us what to do.
Also faction based PvP is lame IMO. Why can't i decide for myself who my enemy is. Faction systems make it impossible for in-game intrigue. Yeah, you can spy on the other team, but you have to log on a 2nd account to do it. In FFAPvP, a person can sell out his buddies if he feels like it. Political intrigue becomes a huge and exciting part of the game.
Why make some NPC king when you can allow players to form their own monarchies? A player should be able to be a king if he wants to work at it hard enough.
BTW i am not opposed to level resticted areas so that lowbies will have a place to hide from the high level gankers. There could be lots of level 1-5 dungeons etc, but in the dungeon, players can still be jumped by other 1-5 players.
However, the main thing that's needed is a HUGE game world where people can find secluded places to hunt, and not be forced into small cramped xp camps. The developers could allow the mobs to progress as the game matures. For example, When the game is first released, 90% of the hunting areas could be for levels 1-20. Higher levels could be forced to go into certain dungeons or small dangerous areas to get xp. This would allow players plenty of places to explore and hunt mobs and random gankers would have more trouble finding prey. I get ganked, "Aww that sucks." I'll move to another decaying tower to farm my mobs.
As the average population levels, the dangerous areas could get larger. After a while, the lowbie areas would be small and the dangerous areas would be huge.
Also, i have no problem with people who don't like PvP. That's fine, play a PvE game. I like PvP and PvE. However, if you claim to like PvP, then you should not hide behind the wall while you xp to max level and farm all the best gear in secluded saftey. That's just weak.
Originally posted by fizzle322 Don't play pvp games, stay on carebear servers. You have your fun, I have mine. But don't come to a pvp game and start barking at people. I like open pvp servers because it discourages whiners from playing. I'm not here to take potshots at carebears but you're making it really hard for me not to insult you.
Sorry Fiz, but open PvP not only encourages whiners, it encourages whiners to spam devs with "I want this class to be better, I want that weapon to be better, this game is unbalanced, I should own everything and I just lost". It starts a cycle of dev crackdowns that results in everybody getting screwed, and in the worst case scenario, remove the FFA from the game. You can't argue with that, it's been shown in EVERY SINGLE FFA GAME EVER MADE. And besides, I think you've missed my point, or havn't fully read all my responses in this thread. I don't want a non-PvP system, I want a system where running around ganking all the Noobs in a game has some freakin tangible consequences. The reason you have no Open PvP game right now is because the very few ruined it for the many by abusing their power and scaring off new players. The devs can't let that happen, it ends the game for everyone. Basically, if your intention in an Open PvP system is to run around picking fights you know you will win with players who are all weaker then you, then screw you, I don't care if you EVER get a game catered to you. And neither do the Devs. If you want a game where you have to pick your fights carefully, only go after a challenge, then I'm all for it and I'm trying to work in here to come up with some kind of system that we can all agree on.
2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with.
I would agree that YOU fit this category. But again, it may not be the people posting here that ruin FFAPVP (I have been converted, gotten some great responses to this post), but the people that WILL ruin it will flock there.
Trust me, i play PvP servers on all the games i play. The real griefers are in the minority, and very few of them have any real skill. The main reason they are camping the lowbie areas is because they get spanked by real PvPers. That's why i just laugh when i get camped by someone twice my level. The problem is they put a bad taste in your mouth.
For the record, i like to buzz through the newbie zones once in a while to cause a little havoc, but i save griefing for the real assholes. Most of us are like that, i think
I have admited that. The population of players who ruin the game for lowbies is a very small %, but they still do RUIN the game. I know I started this thread with a chip on my shoulder. It was really in response to another thread posted out here about "I want wanton destruction and everyone below me to kiss my ass". So I appreciate that we've made this into a very constructive debate and not a flame war. Thank all of you for that. I'd also like to clarify that I AM a FFA PvP guy, I believe in it's merits, but I believe that it needs some kinds of limitations. I think playing a fully PvE game is somewhere akin to watching paint dry. My basic standpoint about FFA is this: In the perfect FFA system, anytime you choose to attack someone, or engage in PvP combat, it should be with both some risk to YOU, and major risk to the one you are attacking. It's the former that we find lacking in FFA games. There generally is NO risk for attacking someone 20 levels lower then you, and not only is that unrealistic, it ruins the game. It also goes against all the cries I've seen about the "feeling" of a FFA game, where you have to watch your back, and are always uneasy. EVERY fight you choose to engage in should come to you with some risk, there should be no "I win" button because you are 30 levels above your victim.
Originally posted by fizzle322 Don't play pvp games, stay on carebear servers. You have your fun, I have mine. But don't come to a pvp game and start barking at people. I like open pvp servers because it discourages whiners from playing. I'm not here to take potshots at carebears but you're making it really hard for me not to insult you.
Sorry Fiz, but open PvP not only encourages whiners, it encourages whiners to spam devs with "I want this class to be better, I want that weapon to be better, this game is unbalanced, I should own everything and I just lost". It starts a cycle of dev crackdowns that results in everybody getting screwed, and in the worst case scenario, remove the FFA from the game. You can't argue with that, it's been shown in EVERY SINGLE FFA GAME EVER MADE. And besides, I think you've missed my point, or havn't fully read all my responses in this thread. I don't want a non-PvP system, I want a system where running around ganking all the Noobs in a game has some freakin tangible consequences. The reason you have no Open PvP game right now is because the very few ruined it for the many by abusing their power and scaring off new players. The devs can't let that happen, it ends the game for everyone. Basically, if your intention in an Open PvP system is to run around picking fights you know you will win with players who are all weaker then you, then screw you, I don't care if you EVER get a game catered to you. And neither do the Devs. If you want a game where you have to pick your fights carefully, only go after a challenge, then I'm all for it and I'm trying to work in here to come up with some kind of system that we can all agree on.
Scaring off new players? It is there fault, they should have read carefully what the MMO is about.
For example, I make a character on Lineage 2 and right when I get out, I get killed. There is no point in whinning since the game won't be changed just for me.
BTW, like in Lineage 2. The content is up to the players. They want to make an alliance where all they do is like new players, then be it. It is freedom, you choose to be nice and help new players or be evil and go around kill everyone .
Originally posted by OSYYRUS Sorry Fiz, but open PvP not only encourages whiners, it encourages whiners to spam devs with "I want this class to be better, I want that weapon to be better, this game is unbalanced, I should own everything and I just lost". It starts a cycle of dev crackdowns that results in everybody getting screwed, and in the worst case scenario, remove the FFA from the game. You can't argue with that, it's been shown in EVERY SINGLE FFA GAME EVER MADE.
Wait. Are you saying it doesn't happen in non-FFA games?
Seriously, I don't think there is a model that will effectively discourage 'whiners.' Mostly because one person's valid issue is another person's whine.
Comments
I both love and hate pvp i started online game back in like 95ish with old text games larps,muds etc etc.PvP use to be fun and mature.Now days alot not ALL gamers are in the ages of 14 and up average anyways and alot of em dont even know the concepts behind a mmorpg.
Now if game makers would be smart and make seperate servers for both carebares rpers and the pvper i think we would all be happy.Cant force people into pvp and you cant force them into rping are being a carebare.Online games are almost like real life everygamer has a certain lifestyle or game style in the way they wanna play their characters ingame.Only thing i hate about the pvper i see even postin latly seem to feel they need to force people into pvp.
And my message prolly dont make any sense but ive never been good into putting my thoughts into writing.
Well, yes and no. You will never elimiate all the jerks from any enviroment you just have to accept this. I played WoW on PvP servers both as horde an alliance, but not counting BGs most of my PvP deaths happened from ppl killing my exiting an instance while loading and unable to act. WoW does'nt even have FFA PvP nor a PvP penalty...and generally all that happens in griefing. No risk, all reward leads to griefing. There is little reason to fight back since your honor is based on dmg you inflict so it may take 20 ppl to take a ?? lvl player down, but they get nothign for it overall. they might as well ignore the whole situation.
Things don't have to be equal to be balanced. Lets say it takes 5 players of X lvl to kill 1 player of Y lvl. Assume that as fact. Just because there is no real benefit for player of Y lvl to kill the lower lvl players does not mean there shoudln't be benefit for the lower lvl players to team up and kill a solo higher lvl. At first you might think this will create a band of low lvl twinks killing higher lvl, but in the end it would create roaming factions. YOu eliminate the bonus of being alone you reduce griefing overall sinc it i hard to grief a group. I always wondered why WoW gives a group XP bonus, but not an honor bonus...
There are still ways to add solo content, just don't make it pvp focused. Use something similar to the DAoC Catacombs, or FFXI promys. But... that would require a lil innovation ; ; so I don't see happening soon.
After a point ppl cheat in any MMO really. Ppl buy currency, ppl buy epics or +1s or HQs, thier avatars, or a structure. The key isn't to try to eliminate cheaters but to reward those who put in effort, since cheaters rarely put in effort.
I believe games are designed with pvp in mind or not in mind. Take DDO for example. It was designed where there won't be any pvp. If it's ever added, which is unlikely, it would most likely change the classes so much that the people who played it for the pve would leave. Now, take a game like RF Online. It was designed with pvp in mind and if pvp went away, what would be left? The same could be said for many other games.
Is ganking bad? It is if it's combined with griefing. Take this example. When I was playing WoW, if I saw an opposing faction I would engage in combat. If that person was 10 levels below me and didn't stand a chance, oh well. However, I wouldn't stand around and corpse camp that person. I would continue on to whatever destination I had in mind. If this happened to me I was more than happy if the person didn't camp me and just killed me because it's what you do on a pvp server. I expected confrontation. It was the ones that ran by and waved that seemed shifty to me!
So, do I think FFA has a place in certain games? Absolutely. Should it be in every game? No, there are some games where a FFA pvp environment would disrupt the rest of the game too much. That's the balance the developers have to work on. Luckily some games where pvp is optional offer pvp and normal servers so you play where you feel most comfortable. Other games have areas where you're protected or safer so you have a place to go for refuge when necessary.
so...
i dunno why people keep trying to think of a dev designated reward/punishment system. The community of players are perfectly able to develop our own reward/punishment system. Let the devs spend more time on game content and less time on restricting the in game society.
A few things:
1) 99.99% of all random gankers do it because they are bored. If you can entertain the gankers with something else (maybe game content? *gasp*) you will have less gankers.
2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with.
3) people who play MMORPGs are role players. We will develop a society on our own. We don't need some game developer to tell us that elves hate orcs because protectors will hate killers. Some of us are protectors and some of us are killers. We will play the way we want to play. The online society will establish norms. Some people will follow them, and some people will rebel against them.
I think that game developers waste alot of resource trying to steer the way we play. We don't need an NPC kingdom to follow. We don't need NPC cities. We don't need NPCs to tell us we should go kill Monster X so we can get some kind of phat loot. Make dungeons fun to fight in and players will go fight in dungeons. NPCs are a crutch to attempt to steer PvE actions.
P.S. i often hear people say that they don't want to deal with griefers and smack talkers in game because they deal with it enough IRL. My question is, what RL do you live in?! If some smart ass punk was in my face insulting me, i would knock the shit out of him. I'm sorry if you have to deal with people like that IRL, but maybe you should stand up for yourself. Most of the people i deal with IRL are considerate or at least civil because they have to live with the consequences of their actions. Alot of the people i deal with online are rude and inconsiderate because they don't have to worry about consequences.
Which FF Character Are You?
so...
The Millenium Lee
Don't play pvp games, stay on carebear servers.
You have your fun, I have mine.
But don't come to a pvp game and start barking at people.
I like open pvp servers because it discourages whiners from playing.
I'm not here to take potshots at carebears but you're making it really hard for me not to insult you.
[quote]Originally posted by OSYYRUS
[b]I really don't understand you guys. What makes you have the right to ruin other people's game? If you want a FFA system, that means you want to be able to kill anyone, anytime. Which basically means, you want to be able to kill people who don't want to PvP.
Why would someone who doesn't want to PvP be on a server that allows FFA PvP, unless it was the only decent game in town or the developers promoted it as being something else?
At this point I could only do that by asking for every game and every server that doesn't follow my rules to shut down, thereby forcing everyone else to either quit gaming or play on servers that do follow my rules. Not only would it be a ridiculously unrealistic request, it would be completely against my philosophy regarding gaming (ie. play what you like.)
With the plethora of PvM and restricted-PvP games out there, it's actually the *non-PvP* players asking everybody to be subjected to their rules when they argue against the viability of ffa-pvp games. When they were more limited, I was actually in favour of adding servers with greater restrictions - so the folks who felt that open-PvP ruins the game for them could enjoy their game without interference from me.
[quote]So tell me, what gives you the right in on online game to say that YOU should be able to kill anyone, anytime? The only difference between these two systems is that one allows for griefing and one doesn't, [quote]
Please. Griefing doesn't require ffa-pvp. Hell, it doesn't even require direct PvP; I can think of a thousand ways to grief you in a no-PvP game, and my sole temptation towards grief-play is to prove to folks like you that a PvP-toggle is insufficient protection from it.
I just want a game where the players are part of the environment, not seperate entities interacting with it. A player-driven economy is one aspect to that; the potential for PvP, unhindered by artificial restrictions*, is another. If someone griefs me - either by ganking me, or just following my tamer around and killing everything I try to tame while hiding behind a pvp switch - I want to be able to take direct action against him instead of putting up with him until I've got enough evidence and he's bugged enough other people to convince an admin to boot him.
You've got plenty of worlds that cater to you. Why do you care if one or two try to cater to me?
There are two things the players need the devs for in that field: providing the tools necessary to actually apply a reward/punishment system, and ensuring that 'anti-social' behaviour does not give so much of an edge that the consequences are laughable.
Which is why i think that consequences should be harsh, but the punishment delivered by the players themselves. I think that developers should offer the tools AND add the content. However, rather than thinking of content as just 'something for me to do', I think that content should be elements added to the world that effect the balance of power.
For example, if a game featured highly sought after trade routes managed by the large merchant families, any added trade route might shift the balance of power between these houses. Conflict would arise between these groups as they compete to get control of it, and hence why PVP would flourish. Players could choose sides between the merchant families, or they could choose no side and merely seek to unstablize the stranglehold that these families have on the world economy. Imagine, if siding with the King you could conspire against the merchant families to give more power to the state, so that the king could gain more control. Diplomacy, Economy, Politics are what would give the Combat side of PVP a flair we aint seen yet folks. You want a reason to gank, that would be it. Where ganking is gameplay and griefing is something else (most likely made up by the pricks among us, they'll always be there).
It would also mean that each shard would be fundamentally different to others in terms of power balance and the state of the world. Great stories of intrigue, deception and corruption would be made by the players, as then they are history makers rather than history players. I don't want to play someone else's history, i want to make my own. Dynamic Worlds!! yes please.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
Unfortuantely, part of the current trend seems to be to mix and match PvP and Pve elements in the same gameworld or to allow the PvP in that world to impinge on the PvE.
Better to segregate.
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
My whole point is that a FFAPvP system gives the players the ability to create their own systems. They create their own reasons for PvP.
In DAoC, the RvR has a game designed goal. Take keeps and get the relics. That was great for a while, but more often than not, people just run in 8 man gank squads or just in zergs and don't mess with the keeps or relics. Players just wanna play. Most of us don't want some code writer telling us what to do.
Also faction based PvP is lame IMO. Why can't i decide for myself who my enemy is. Faction systems make it impossible for in-game intrigue. Yeah, you can spy on the other team, but you have to log on a 2nd account to do it. In FFAPvP, a person can sell out his buddies if he feels like it. Political intrigue becomes a huge and exciting part of the game.
Why make some NPC king when you can allow players to form their own monarchies? A player should be able to be a king if he wants to work at it hard enough.
BTW i am not opposed to level resticted areas so that lowbies will have a place to hide from the high level gankers. There could be lots of level 1-5 dungeons etc, but in the dungeon, players can still be jumped by other 1-5 players.
However, the main thing that's needed is a HUGE game world where people can find secluded places to hunt, and not be forced into small cramped xp camps. The developers could allow the mobs to progress as the game matures. For example, When the game is first released, 90% of the hunting areas could be for levels 1-20. Higher levels could be forced to go into certain dungeons or small dangerous areas to get xp. This would allow players plenty of places to explore and hunt mobs and random gankers would have more trouble finding prey. I get ganked, "Aww that sucks." I'll move to another decaying tower to farm my mobs.
As the average population levels, the dangerous areas could get larger. After a while, the lowbie areas would be small and the dangerous areas would be huge.
Also, i have no problem with people who don't like PvP. That's fine, play a PvE game. I like PvP and PvE. However, if you claim to like PvP, then you should not hide behind the wall while you xp to max level and farm all the best gear in secluded saftey. That's just weak.
Which FF Character Are You?
The Millenium Lee
OSSY,
2) most FFAPvPers like a challenging fight. We don't care about titles or realm points or penalties or any other meaningless garbage. Gankers are simply an obsticle for us to deal with.
I would agree that YOU fit this category. But again, it may not be the people posting here that ruin FFAPVP (I have been converted, gotten some great responses to this post), but the people that WILL ruin it will flock there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust me, i play PvP servers on all the games i play. The real griefers are in the minority, and very few of them have any real skill. The main reason they are camping the lowbie areas is because they get spanked by real PvPers. That's why i just laugh when i get camped by someone twice my level. The problem is they put a bad taste in your mouth.
For the record, i like to buzz through the newbie zones once in a while to cause a little havoc, but i save griefing for the real assholes. Most of us are like that, i think
Which FF Character Are You?
I have admited that. The population of players who ruin the game for lowbies is a very small %, but they still do RUIN the game. I know I started this thread with a chip on my shoulder. It was really in response to another thread posted out here about "I want wanton destruction and everyone below me to kiss my ass". So I appreciate that we've made this into a very constructive debate and not a flame war. Thank all of you for that. I'd also like to clarify that I AM a FFA PvP guy, I believe in it's merits, but I believe that it needs some kinds of limitations. I think playing a fully PvE game is somewhere akin to watching paint dry. My basic standpoint about FFA is this:
In the perfect FFA system, anytime you choose to attack someone, or engage in PvP combat, it should be with both some risk to YOU, and major risk to the one you are attacking. It's the former that we find lacking in FFA games. There generally is NO risk for attacking someone 20 levels lower then you, and not only is that unrealistic, it ruins the game. It also goes against all the cries I've seen about the "feeling" of a FFA game, where you have to watch your back, and are always uneasy. EVERY fight you choose to engage in should come to you with some risk, there should be no "I win" button because you are 30 levels above your victim.
The Millenium Lee
Scaring off new players? It is there fault, they should have read carefully what the MMO is about.
For example, I make a character on Lineage 2 and right when I get out, I get killed. There is no point in whinning since the game won't be changed just for me.
BTW, like in Lineage 2. The content is up to the players. They want to make an alliance where all they do is like new players, then be it. It is freedom, you choose to be nice and help new players or be evil and go around kill everyone
.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
Wait. Are you saying it doesn't happen in non-FFA games?
Seriously, I don't think there is a model that will effectively discourage 'whiners.' Mostly because one person's valid issue is another person's whine.