Originally posted by jgankum Without Simutronics current tiered pricing model, I don't believe they would have even been able to attempt to make HJ. You, however, seem only interested in yourself and what you get.It is funny to see you make so many grand assumptions about DR and the effects of its pricing, yet you've never played the game. The people who play DR tell you that they don't feel advantaged or disadvantaged when it comes to charactor advancment or balance, but you seem to know better. Go sign up for the 30 free trial, them come tell me how unfair it is.
*sigh* You again.
What grand assumptions do I make of DR? I said nothing of the effects of DR's pricing on DR itself; I'm talking about what effects that same pricing model might have on HJ. It's a different game and there's a different crowd. Because the aim of the game and the people who played were drastically different, things like the private hunting grounds of DR had a very small impact. I understand this. However, it would be different in a game like HJ.
You're accusing me of being selfish now. I have a mind to dispute this, but I think there is a better approach.
I'm trying to decide which game I play next. I'm looking for the game that will be fun for me to play. Not you. Not anyone else. Just me. Why in the world should I play a game if I'm not having fun? The way I see it, I sure better be interested in myself and what I get. I'm going to be the one paying for the game; I should hope I have fun with it.
Originally posted by Techleo The fact the company offers lesser versions of the game for cheaper is merely a option they excersice as a company. There game. They can do what they want. I dont dispute the game companies right to offer ANY price scheme or content scheme.
Neither do I. It is their game, and they can do what they want. I'm not trying to argue that. What I'm saying is that if they do this a certain way, there's a very good chance that I won't play their game. This isn't a communism of some sort. I'm not being forced to play HJ on whatever pricing model Simutronics chooses. They choose their pricing, and I choose whether or not I pay it.
I don't understand why you two don't think I should be interested in my own needs as a gamer. I pick the game I play. I want to have fun playing it. If there is something that will hurt my experience, then I probably won't play. Sorry if I make myself look like the bad guy here, but I'm a consumer. I'm currently on the fence between Hero's Journey and Vanguard. HJ's pricing may be the thing that pushes me over that fence onto the other side.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
"What grand assumptions do I make of DR? I said nothing of the effects of DR's pricing on DR itself; I'm talking about what effects that same pricing model might have on HJ. It's a different game and there's a different crowd. Because the aim of the game and the people who played were drastically different, things like the private hunting grounds of DR had a very small impact. I understand this. However, it would be different in a game like HJ.""
1. PROVE that it would be different in HJ. 2. You said time is time. Two minutes or an hour, and advantage is still and advantage when getting to a hunting area. You made this out to be a big deal, above you say it has a small impact. Which is it? Stop changing your mind to try to make your points. 3. Div's and my examples of Prime account were, as you know, DR examples. You used these to try and make your points about how this would be unfair in HJ. Again, PROVE that it would be different in HJ. Just because you think it would be different, does not make it true.
"What I'm saying is that if they do this a certain way, there's a very good chance that I won't play their game."
What else have you been saying? Come on, you have post after post proclaiming the evils of tiered pricing. Don't back away from your proclamations now.
"I don't understand why you two don't think I should be interested in my own needs as a gamer. I pick the game I play. I want to have fun playing it. If there is something that will hurt my experience, then I probably won't play. Sorry if I make myself look like the bad guy here, but I'm a consumer. I'm currently on the fence between Hero's Journey and Vanguard. HJ's pricing may be the thing that pushes me over that fence onto the other side."
See, this sounds fair to me. You should be interested in yourself and I am sure you care about your fellow games as well. After all, we are talking about MMO's so you need those other players. What gets to me is how you proclaim tiered pricing must be bad. Yes, that is the way it comes across to me. You do nothing to look at the topic with an open mind. For all you know, tiered pricing could end up giving you a better game at a cheaper price, compared to what the Vanguard has to offer. Before you even know what Simu plans to do, you have made up your mind. I see no reason why I should sit back and not point out that you are trying to profess the evils of something that does not even exist yet.
Nice post under the character manager topic, by the way. /sarcasim
First I'd like to say that the people talking about how travel is 'instantanious' are full of crap.
It isn't, not in the least. Let me give you an example.
As you heard, there is a gargoyle premium hunting area. It's located in Crossings which is the 'capital' so to speak, of the DR world. Now, my character is a politician of sorts...Elven type, wants the Elven city in Zoluran to be free of human occupation and control...anyway, all of these events where my character can push his agenda take place around Crossings. Interestingly enough, my combat 'level' so to speak is that of Gargoyles.
When I was a Premium member, and I wanted to hunt, I just put on my armor and went to the hunting area (without scripts...it's close enough). Took a minute tops to get there. Now, when I'm not a premium member I have to go down near Shard to hunt Gargoyles. If I run a script I can get down to the gondola in about five minutes. Then, I have to wait at the gondola(if it isn't there) until it comes around. If it just left the north side, the wait can be around 20 to 30 minutes. So already we're talking 25 to 30 minutes to go hunt what I want to hunt.
Next, you have crowds...now a days, it isn't crowded. Most people have moved past fighting gargoyles so it isn't a problem. But back when I was playing all the time it was a problem. If you went to the Premie area you could find a good hunting spot easy (right strength of magic/decent spawn/ect.) but if you had to go near Shard...well then you had to find a spot. Which at times was difficult.
Also, every so often they would have 'Premium Meetings' at the various buildings (that non-Premies weren't allowed in) where they would get free gifts. Sure...almost all of it was useless fluff. But it's useless fluff that only some people can get.
There are differences, and why they don't matter much in a Text game is because people don't see them. In a Graphics based game it will be a lot different. That's where the alterers will come in. For example, you see a really neat looking spear...it would fit the image of your character perfectly. The stats are the same as the spear you have now...but yours is plain. Maybe you want some feathers tied to it...maybe you want it's point to look different instead of a plain jane point that you have.
"Hey, where'd you get that spear?"
"Oh, Merchant Joey came by the Estate Holders house and took my old spear and spiffed it up a bit"
Damn, I guess there goes that idea. I'll have to wait for the normal alterer to come along and wait in line with the other thousand people waiting to get their stuff done.
Simutronics is an awesome company, the people they have working for them are wonderful people. Their gaming concepts are awesome, and I bet...from playing their text games for so long, that they will impliment them perfectly. I just want the pricing model to be flat...if they raise the price one dollar so everyone can get what everyone else can...then that would be awesome. But if they make it so I have to pay an extra 20 dollars a month just to do the neat things that will make this game special. I'm not going to deal with it.
Interesting port Mordiazi - now if they did choose to go with a tiered pricing scheme then I would expect that you would want something for it (who wouldn't), but that seemed to me that the premium content there offered either a nicety or a shortcut - now with the hunting grounds they could have just done that and there was no need to penalise standard fee paying members, that's just rubbing it in their face and making their game less enjoyable compared to people who could afford to pay more.
On the matter of rubbing it in their face whats just not right to have premium only meetings, that's separatism and can offer nothing good what so ever!
Shroom, there is one major difference between AO's setup and the one talked about here - the reduced content is down to expansions (and no one argues about expansions, they are a one off payment and very few mind that), nothing more or less - if you choose to play the free game then you expect not to have the extra content, but bear in mind the key factor here - FREE, whats being discussed here is PAYING customers not getting the same content as richer paying customers - sort of a watered down SOE exchange system I guess, to (probably) misquote Yes Minister, its the thin end of the wedge, a Bennite solution
On another point, yes its their game and yes they came make it how they wish but they are making it for me (well us but you know what I mean) and at the end of the day if I feel that I'm missing out because I cannot afford to pay whatever stupidly high figure the "premium" members pay then I'm always going to feel that I'm getting less because I'm just not rich enough to afford it - that is not a nice feeling and if I feel bad about a game then I'll move to a lesser game where I'm getting the same treatment as everyone else.
Anyway, final comment - I'm against a tiered system, its simply not fair!
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
I think I'm dropping out of this argument for now at least. (I'm going to be busy now too with HJ)
I just want you all to know why I argued for tiered pricing so hard.
A. If they look at this argument, they will get a feel for what the players -really- want, and I want what is best for everyone as a whole. Although I personally am a fan of tiered pricing, I wouldn't have them make it so, just to ruin everyone else's experience.
B. If they DO implement it, hopefully they will look at the pricing arguments, and if so, I would think that a basic price of 10-15, and a premium of 15-20 maximum. (I'm giving a lower and higher option for both). Tiered pricing DOES allow for more GMs and more GMs means more areas, quests, events, etc.
I think that's it, I might come and comment occasionally, but for the most part I should be more silent.
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
In my view, although the tiered pricing system seems to work fine in MUDs, MMO players are a different animal, with different social dynamics, and I'd hope that Simutronics takes this into account. To illustrate what I mean, I'll tell a story that gives an example (please bear with me).
The more I read about this, the more it reminds me of the original Jedi situation in Star Wars Galaxies. The first system was that Jedi was hard to get, and, though potentially extremely powerful, suffered permadeath, meaning that actually playing one was for only the most "hardcore", and even then wasn't a replacement for a regular character. In other words, having a Jedi character was a "cherry on top" - a nice addition for the player, but not really changing the main game; something to enjoy the look of, and show off to your friends. Not a bad idea, you'd think.
Except it didn't work that way. When people got their Jedi, many other players of the game felt like they to have one too. Then they demanded en masse that Jedi be more playable (since they "worked hard" for it), so death penalties got softened. Then, once Jedi became playable in regular content but still more powerful than other players, all the PvPers felt like they had to have one; Jedi's advantagees in PvE became more apparent the more of them there were, so the high-end players wanted to be one as well, etc. It ended up driving a wedge through the game's community.
OK, this example isn't a perfect analogy to tiered pricing, since Jedi was acquired through grinding and not real-life money (though it's worth mentioning that there was a thriving eBay market in Jedi characters back then, which just added more fuel to the flames). The main point is how MMO players think, and how they'd react to it. From my experience in SWG, I'm convinced that those on the lower payment scales would resent what the premium players got. The premium players, in turn, would expect - no, demand - their money's worth; and if they got rewards proportional to spending five times as much per month, the non-premiums would get even more unhappy. Ultimately, I get the impression here that MUD players are (A) quite uniformly mature in age and/or attitude, and (B) less focused on acquisition and achievement. Those things are not true of the general MMO audience.
Let me also say that I'm not trying to flame here. I'm sure most of us are here on this forum because we're excited enough by what we've read about HJ to come and talk about it, even though it's still some way from release. So if even we are voicing concerns about tiered pricing, I'm certain (from all the time I've spent on game forums) that the controversy here is only a fraction of the mauling that would take place on a live game's forums - never mind that it could hurt review scores. Basically, I have high hopes for HJ, I'm just concerned that if Simutronics apply their existing pricing schemes without regard to the different audience of an MMO, it could be a blow against the game before it even launches. I don't want HJ being remembered as "it was a great game, if only they hadn't put people off and split the community with that tiered pricing, it would've been a major success."
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
Right Div, sure it could be that low. And if it is, I don't see it as much of a problem.
But wouldn't they get the same or more revenue by charging 12.50 for everyone instead of 10 for basic and 15 for Premium? Well, the average game charges 15 now. So how about 17.50 instead of 15 for basic and 20 for premium?
I think for me, it comes down to "what it's worth to me" on the tiered pricing. I've read this whole thread with an open mind. My previous posts I know show me anti-tiered but I really was trying to see the otherside here. It's not about money or that I don't have it. Fundementally, it comes down to, I will NOT pay for one GAME with a monthly charge that is more than I pay for internet service. Honestly I don't want to even pay half that.
I see all the screaming about extra services and everything and honestly I can't add anymore to the conversation against that Mr.Shroom hasn't said very well already.
If this is inevitable though. I suppose what I'd like to see is serious segregation of the "I'm willing to pay buttloads for game" from the people who are "Not willing to go broke paying for a game" in terms of servers (Shards).
I think the EQ legends server has already been mentioned. Boy, did that go over well. lol
A note, my whole speculation is under the assumption that the cost could be somewhere above the $40 mark (This is of course speculation since nothing has been announced yet). If indeed it's something around $10 - $20. I could deal with that fine. But for me the $20 mark is the magic number for me.
Anyhow, I think after this I'm shutting up on this until someone at Simu releases some damn info.
Originally posted by Dasharr So if even we are voicing concerns about tiered pricing, I'm certain (from all the time I've spent on game forums) that the controversy here is only a fraction of the mauling that would take place on a live game's forums - never mind that it could hurt review scores.
Your whole post is so true, Dasharr. That particular part is very interesting, considering the fact that we aren't so numerous in this forum and still there's an active diatribe on the tiered pricing. I WON'T play HJ if they come out with a tiered pricing, simply put.
Originally posted by jgankum "What grand assumptions do I make of DR? I said nothing of the effects of DR's pricing on DR itself; I'm talking about what effects that same pricing model might have on HJ. It's a different game and there's a different crowd. Because the aim of the game and the people who played were drastically different, things like the private hunting grounds of DR had a very small impact. I understand this. However, it would be different in a game like HJ.""1. PROVE that it would be different in HJ. 2. You said time is time. Two minutes or an hour, and advantage is still and advantage when getting to a hunting area. You made this out to be a big deal, above you say it has a small impact. Which is it? Stop changing your mind to try to make your points. 3. Div's and my examples of Prime account were, as you know, DR examples. You used these to try and make your points about how this would be unfair in HJ. Again, PROVE that it would be different in HJ. Just because you think it would be different, does not make it true.
1. Well, I find it impossible to "prove" that it would be different, but I think Dasharr did the best job of explaining why it will more than likely be different. Great example, too. Think about it. No one even had to pay extra for a Jedi. It was theoretically in everyone's reach, but they still complained. 2. What I was trying to say was that time is a big deal to MMORPG players, but in DR (not an MMORPG) it was not as big a deal. However, now Mordiazi is saying that even in DR it was a big deal, which changes some things. 3. I was taking those examples and saying that if they were in an MMORPG, they would cause problems that may or may not have existed in DR.
The bottom line is that you can't just add graphics to an MUD and call it an MMORPG, expecting MMORPG players to pick it up and love it. Different games for crowds.
Originally posted by jgankum "What I'm saying is that if they do this a certain way, there's a very good chance that I won't play their game."What else have you been saying? Come on, you have post after post proclaiming the evils of tiered pricing. Don't back away from your proclamations now.
What are you talking about? I didn't mean that that's all I'm saying. Don't take things out of context.
Originally posted by jgankum "I don't understand why you two don't think I should be interested in my own needs as a gamer. I pick the game I play. I want to have fun playing it. If there is something that will hurt my experience, then I probably won't play. Sorry if I make myself look like the bad guy here, but I'm a consumer. I'm currently on the fence between Hero's Journey and Vanguard. HJ's pricing may be the thing that pushes me over that fence onto the other side."See, this sounds fair to me. You should be interested in yourself and I am sure you care about your fellow games as well. After all, we are talking about MMO's so you need those other players. What gets to me is how you proclaim tiered pricing must be bad. Yes, that is the way it comes across to me.
I'm not trying to say that tiered pricing is always bad and evil. It apparently worked in DR, but again, that was a different crowd. My main point here is that tiered pricing probably won't work as well in an MMORPG. I think that choosing a tiered system will hurt the game more than it will help.
Originally posted by jgankum You do nothing to look at the topic with an open mind. For all you know, tiered pricing could end up giving you a better game at a cheaper price, compared to what the Vanguard has to offer. Before you even know what Simu plans to do, you have made up your mind.
I haven't made up my mind. "On the fence" means that I haven't decided yet.
Originally posted by jgankum I see no reason why I should sit back and not point out that you are trying to profess the evils of something that does not even exist yet.
Hey, no one said you couldn't try to do that, but wasn't that the point of this topic? We're discussing the pricing system of HJ which, as you know, doesn't exist yet. I'm not professing the evils of it, either. I'm professing the potential evils of it. (If "evils" is the word you insist on using.)
Originally posted by jgankum Nice post under the character manager topic, by the way. /sarcasim
Eh?
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
How can you say DR (And GS) are not mmorpgs because they do not have graphics? DR actually ruined all graphic mmorpgs for me because they didn't compare.. They just weren't fun, pretty perhaps, but boring.
And apparently a picture is worth a thousand words, so you can't say text is more descriptive either. :P
Originally posted by xDivianaDRx I just have one comment.. How can you say DR (And GS) are not mmorpgs because they do not have graphics? DR actually ruined all graphic mmorpgs for me because they didn't compare.. They just weren't fun, pretty perhaps, but boring. And apparently a picture is worth a thousand words, so you can't say text is more descriptive either. :P
While they certainly qualify for each letter in MMORPG, I think the average gamer (certainly at MMORPG.com, though not at play.net) considers text-based games to be MUDs regardless of their size; industry definitions are one thing, but popular opinion and public perception are another. I played, built, and admistrated MUDs for years, and even I tend to think of Simtronics' text games as MUDs. I still play a mud called "Prophecies of the Pattern" that has more features than your average MMO (including Faires, roleplay experience, reincarnation, complicated spellcasting, you name it), but I'd still consider it to be a MUD even if 3000 people were playing it at a time instead of 50.
In any case, the whole "is it" or "isn't it" topic makes for an interesting discussion, but perhaps not in this thread. The gamers Simutronics should be interested in getting are the ones who are currently playing other MMOs, not the ones they already have. Otherwise, they'd just be transferring income from one of their hands to the other. As such, initial impressions of more mainstream gamers (read: not necessarily "better" or "smarter," just more numerous) is bound to be more helpful than the feedback of players they already have when it comes to determining or presenting pricing, game features, and everything in between. If anything, it'd be better for Simutronics to keep their current subscribers exactly where they are, as it'll be easier to get new players into a brand new graphical game than to replace players leaving a decades-old text game, even if that text game is the best thing since sliced bread.
Originally posted by Jenuviel The gamers Simutronics should be interested in getting are the ones who are currently playing other MMOs, not the ones they already have. Otherwise, they'd just be transferring income from one of their hands to the other. As such, initial impressions of more mainstream gamers (read: not necessarily "better" or "smarter," just more numerous) is bound to be more helpful than the feedback of players they already have when it comes to determining or presenting pricing, game features, and everything in between. If anything, it'd be better for Simutronics to keep their current subscribers exactly where they are, as it'll be easier to get new players into a brand new graphical game than to replace players leaving a decades-old text game, even if that text game is the best thing since sliced bread.
This is another really good point, and something to think about in relation to pricing. If HJ is the standard flat rate ($15/month for everyone), that will mean that when premium players transfer from their other games, they will actually be gaining less money. The other side is that with the standard flat rate, more players from other games will be more willing to try it out, and with more players they will make more money.
It breaks down to who their target audience is.
Is there a greater emphasis on their current customers? If so, they will probably stick with tiered pricing.
Or is there a greater emphasis on the general MMORPG audience? If that is the case, they shouldn't use a tiered system.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
A lot of premium members in DR have two accounts, so I don't see why they would have a problem with wanting to throw a little more HJs way and keep the accounts they already have.
I mean, if they're paying 55 bucks for two accounts for a text game, then why not add an extra 15 for one they can play with pictures? (I'm saying add on accounts, because that is what I would do.. I don't think I'll ever be able to totally give up DR.. way too addicting)
I just saw this post on the official forums and thought it was a pretty unbiased look at the issue considering the guy is currently playing a simutronics game with tiered pricing. He starts off almost defending it but by the end has decided that based on his experience (and he has played for years) tiered pricing would be a bad idea for HJ.
I've been a basic player for years now and to be honest it really dosen't upset me that premium players get benifits and I have no idea what platnium is like so I can't talk about it, but I think it would be nice if the basic players got SOMETHING once in a while. It just seems like nowadays any event in basic is player run which is fine but when you see almost every other week another event planed for premium members it gets a little annoying.And the box office events? forget it I've never gone to one and I'll never go to one. $50+ is an absurd amount of money. If by chance simu had a raffle once a month or every six months, whatever and gave a free ticket to a basic subcriber that might influence someone like myself to actually attend them but I don't know if I'm the minority or not. Do most people go to those events?I could go buy a real PC game for $50 dollars and get a lot more entertainment value out of it then a week's work of GM run events and merchants. From what I've heard it's sort of a crapshoot to get a GM to even work with you and aside from that if I have to pay a big markup IG on weapons and armor to save $50 in RL that's fine with me. Speaking of which having two seperate paying classes IG complety screws up the econemy.Bottom line is I understand it's a business and the objective is to make money but it wouldn't hurt to throw basic players a bone once an while.I don't see a multi-tiered subscription format working in HJ.I don't think you'll see HJ gain anywhere near the player loyalty that gs has. Initally, sure it'll appeal to a wider audience but will they stick around? I doubt it. First it was EQ, then WOW, guild wars, and now D&D online is gaining in popularity, it just seems like people who play those types of games always gravitate towards the next big thing. If simu can somehow add something new to that genere I'd be surprised and regardless of how hard they try the RP in HJ is probably going to be non-existent I might be wrong but I doubt it. If it's anything like wow you can forget it.
Every pro-tiered posts on the subject that I've read so far seems to fall into one of three distinct categories: Simu fans defending tiered pricing out of loyalty, people that prefer the in-game caste system created by the basic and premium players, and the few that think tiered pricing is the only way to keep HJ economically feasible.
Then there are those that worry about the effect tiered pricing could have on HJ, both financially and community-wise. These people are dismissed for mostly not having played previous simutronics games and having no real substantiative evidence to back up their worries, which makes a rational unbiased anti-tiered pricing post from an actual player all the more important.
Another person on the official boards claimed that the people still paying to play old-fashioned MUDs were fanatics. While I think the word is way too harsh, I think it's completely obvious that many of the people so staunchly defending tiered pricing, who are also the same people paying 50+ dollars to play a mud in 2006, are not only the minority but are also in no way representative of today's common mmorpg-player.
Another person on the official boards claimed that the people still paying to play old-fashioned MUDs were fanatics. While I think the word is way too harsh...
Heheh, I believe you were referring to me.
I really didn't mean it in a negative way - I for one prefer the richness of the text games I've played to the shallow beauty of the graphical games I've played. Anyhow, I'm going to copy and paste that post because I think it sums up why tiered pricing won't work (and why it won't result in more money. So many people seem to think that as long as a portion of the playerbase is paying more, Simu's net profit will go up. There are more variables than that, though.) Anyhow, here's the post.
Jpgankum (sp?) this is for you:
Typical management short-sightedness, IMO. Willing to do whatever you can for the dollar today, regardless of the cost tomorrow.
In Gemstone and Dragon Realms, where the playerbase are essentially fanatics (I don't mean this derogatorily, just in the sense that they're still playing text games), and Simu has been the big kahuna for a LONG time, yes - premium pricing works. It's also more of a necessity to help development along because the # of subscriptions is substantially lower than any of the popular 3D MMORPGS.
Why won't that success story carry over into HJ, should they implement tiered pricing? Well, the reasons are many-fold.
First: even if HJ brings some revolutionary aspects to the table they're still a small company and don't carry the weight of either a well known company or a well known license. A lot of competitors that are out now or will be out around HJ's release will have that advantage.
Second: premium pricing splits the community. There are no two ways about it. The ramifications of this are hard to predict with any accuracy, but a few things can be assured to happen in some degree
*Some players will never try HJ because they'll feel that they won't get the full experience w/o paying the premium price, and they refuse to pay that much
*Some players will whine endlessly about premies and there benefits. It is likely that they'll spread neutral or negative word of mouth b/c of the premium divide.
*Some players will be indifferent to the premium status.
*Some players will initially be indifferent to the premium status, but will grow upset upon the introduction of a specific premium only benefit down the road. They'll most likely start complaining loudly and possibly leave.
Third: For every player that never starts playing or leaves early because of the premium divide, the community as a whole is weakened. The weaker the community, the more difficult it is to draw and keep new players. A few key people (guild leaders and such) leaving b/c of the exorbitant (from their perspective) premium price could have a serious trickle down effect. If a few serious guilds leave the game, other guilds may be tempted to follow suit. This is especially likely if the guilds interest in the game is tied in any other way to other guilds (through world politics, rankings, and such).
Fourth: HJ is not ostensibly revolutionizing the genre, and to a lot of casual MMO players it may appear to be "just another fantasy MMO". It will be difficult as it is to attract those who are already rooted in another game - it will be impossible if they feel they'll have to pay twice as much to get an experience comparable to that which they currently have. It doesn't help than no one else is doing it, either.
Fifth: Even if a portion of the playerbase is paying the premium fee - that does not guarantee that Simu is actually netting more profit. You have to consider the # of people that either won't try the game or have left early b/c of the premium divide, and calculate the increased revenue of the premium accounts against the potential revenue of all the lost accounts. Of course, it's impossible to do anything but predict the # of accounts lost - and that's what makes it impossible to prove either way that premium will or won't yield more net profit. Given all of the negatives listed above I feel that premium accounts won't yield the most profit over the long term.
I should add that I'm not debating against premium pricing because I personally don't want to pay it. I'm debating against it because I believe that premium pricing will only harm the image of and the community in the game, and will also negatively impact the lifespan of the game.
I'd really like to see HJ do as well as it deserves, and I think any sort of tiered pricing is going to negatively impact that.
I like how you repost here instead of responding to the counter arguments already made on the HJ forums. I'm not going to cut and paste what those people posted. If people here are interested, they can go read the thread. Besides, the debate on the HJ forums for this topic is much more informative and thought provoking.
Shroom_Mage:
I just can't debate with you because your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.
"I haven't made up my mind. "On the fence" means that I haven't decided yet."
You said you are on the fence about playing HJ or V. I said you have already made up your mind about tiered pricing. These are different points wise guy! Thanks for the useless "on the fence" definition.
Comments
What grand assumptions do I make of DR? I said nothing of the effects of DR's pricing on DR itself; I'm talking about what effects that same pricing model might have on HJ. It's a different game and there's a different crowd. Because the aim of the game and the people who played were drastically different, things like the private hunting grounds of DR had a very small impact. I understand this. However, it would be different in a game like HJ.
You're accusing me of being selfish now. I have a mind to dispute this, but I think there is a better approach.
I'm trying to decide which game I play next. I'm looking for the game that will be fun for me to play. Not you. Not anyone else. Just me. Why in the world should I play a game if I'm not having fun? The way I see it, I sure better be interested in myself and what I get. I'm going to be the one paying for the game; I should hope I have fun with it.
Neither do I. It is their game, and they can do what they want. I'm not trying to argue that. What I'm saying is that if they do this a certain way, there's a very good chance that I won't play their game. This isn't a communism of some sort. I'm not being forced to play HJ on whatever pricing model Simutronics chooses. They choose their pricing, and I choose whether or not I pay it.I don't understand why you two don't think I should be interested in my own needs as a gamer. I pick the game I play. I want to have fun playing it. If there is something that will hurt my experience, then I probably won't play. Sorry if I make myself look like the bad guy here, but I'm a consumer. I'm currently on the fence between Hero's Journey and Vanguard. HJ's pricing may be the thing that pushes me over that fence onto the other side.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
"What grand assumptions do I make of DR? I said nothing of the effects of DR's pricing on DR itself; I'm talking about what effects that same pricing model might have on HJ. It's a different game and there's a different crowd. Because the aim of the game and the people who played were drastically different, things like the private hunting grounds of DR had a very small impact. I understand this. However, it would be different in a game like HJ.""
1. PROVE that it would be different in HJ.
2. You said time is time. Two minutes or an hour, and advantage is still and advantage when getting to a hunting area. You made this out to be a big deal, above you say it has a small impact. Which is it? Stop changing your mind to try to make your points.
3. Div's and my examples of Prime account were, as you know, DR examples. You used these to try and make your points about how this would be unfair in HJ. Again, PROVE that it would be different in HJ. Just because you think it would be different, does not make it true.
"What I'm saying is that if they do this a certain way, there's a very good chance that I won't play their game."
What else have you been saying? Come on, you have post after post proclaiming the evils of tiered pricing. Don't back away from your proclamations now.
"I don't understand why you two don't think I should be interested in my own needs as a gamer. I pick the game I play. I want to have fun playing it. If there is something that will hurt my experience, then I probably won't play. Sorry if I make myself look like the bad guy here, but I'm a consumer. I'm currently on the fence between Hero's Journey and Vanguard. HJ's pricing may be the thing that pushes me over that fence onto the other side."
See, this sounds fair to me. You should be interested in yourself and I am sure you care about your fellow games as well. After all, we are talking about MMO's so you need those other players. What gets to me is how you proclaim tiered pricing must be bad. Yes, that is the way it comes across to me. You do nothing to look at the topic with an open mind. For all you know, tiered pricing could end up giving you a better game at a cheaper price, compared to what the Vanguard has to offer. Before you even know what Simu plans to do, you have made up your mind. I see no reason why I should sit back and not point out that you are trying to profess the evils of something that does not even exist yet.
Nice post under the character manager topic, by the way. /sarcasim
First I'd like to say that the people talking about how travel is 'instantanious' are full of crap.
It isn't, not in the least. Let me give you an example.
As you heard, there is a gargoyle premium hunting area. It's located in Crossings which is the 'capital' so to speak, of the DR world. Now, my character is a politician of sorts...Elven type, wants the Elven city in Zoluran to be free of human occupation and control...anyway, all of these events where my character can push his agenda take place around Crossings. Interestingly enough, my combat 'level' so to speak is that of Gargoyles.
When I was a Premium member, and I wanted to hunt, I just put on my armor and went to the hunting area (without scripts...it's close enough). Took a minute tops to get there. Now, when I'm not a premium member I have to go down near Shard to hunt Gargoyles. If I run a script I can get down to the gondola in about five minutes. Then, I have to wait at the gondola(if it isn't there) until it comes around. If it just left the north side, the wait can be around 20 to 30 minutes. So already we're talking 25 to 30 minutes to go hunt what I want to hunt.
Next, you have crowds...now a days, it isn't crowded. Most people have moved past fighting gargoyles so it isn't a problem. But back when I was playing all the time it was a problem. If you went to the Premie area you could find a good hunting spot easy (right strength of magic/decent spawn/ect.) but if you had to go near Shard...well then you had to find a spot. Which at times was difficult.
Also, every so often they would have 'Premium Meetings' at the various buildings (that non-Premies weren't allowed in) where they would get free gifts. Sure...almost all of it was useless fluff. But it's useless fluff that only some people can get.
There are differences, and why they don't matter much in a Text game is because people don't see them. In a Graphics based game it will be a lot different. That's where the alterers will come in. For example, you see a really neat looking spear...it would fit the image of your character perfectly. The stats are the same as the spear you have now...but yours is plain. Maybe you want some feathers tied to it...maybe you want it's point to look different instead of a plain jane point that you have.
"Hey, where'd you get that spear?"
"Oh, Merchant Joey came by the Estate Holders house and took my old spear and spiffed it up a bit"
Damn, I guess there goes that idea. I'll have to wait for the normal alterer to come along and wait in line with the other thousand people waiting to get their stuff done.
Simutronics is an awesome company, the people they have working for them are wonderful people. Their gaming concepts are awesome, and I bet...from playing their text games for so long, that they will impliment them perfectly. I just want the pricing model to be flat...if they raise the price one dollar so everyone can get what everyone else can...then that would be awesome. But if they make it so I have to pay an extra 20 dollars a month just to do the neat things that will make this game special. I'm not going to deal with it.
Interesting port Mordiazi - now if they did choose to go with a tiered pricing scheme then I would expect that you would want something for it (who wouldn't), but that seemed to me that the premium content there offered either a nicety or a shortcut - now with the hunting grounds they could have just done that and there was no need to penalise standard fee paying members, that's just rubbing it in their face and making their game less enjoyable compared to people who could afford to pay more.
On the matter of rubbing it in their face whats just not right to have premium only meetings, that's separatism and can offer nothing good what so ever!
Shroom, there is one major difference between AO's setup and the one talked about here - the reduced content is down to expansions (and no one argues about expansions, they are a one off payment and very few mind that), nothing more or less - if you choose to play the free game then you expect not to have the extra content, but bear in mind the key factor here - FREE, whats being discussed here is PAYING customers not getting the same content as richer paying customers - sort of a watered down SOE exchange system I guess, to (probably) misquote Yes Minister, its the thin end of the wedge, a Bennite solution
On another point, yes its their game and yes they came make it how they wish but they are making it for me (well us but you know what I mean) and at the end of the day if I feel that I'm missing out because I cannot afford to pay whatever stupidly high figure the "premium" members pay then I'm always going to feel that I'm getting less because I'm just not rich enough to afford it - that is not a nice feeling and if I feel bad about a game then I'll move to a lesser game where I'm getting the same treatment as everyone else.
Anyway, final comment - I'm against a tiered system, its simply not fair!
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
I think I'm dropping out of this argument for now at least. (I'm going to be busy now too with HJ)
I just want you all to know why I argued for tiered pricing so hard.
A. If they look at this argument, they will get a feel for what the players -really- want, and I want what is best for everyone as a whole. Although I personally am a fan of tiered pricing, I wouldn't have them make it so, just to ruin everyone else's experience.
B. If they DO implement it, hopefully they will look at the pricing arguments, and if so, I would think that a basic price of 10-15, and a premium of 15-20 maximum. (I'm giving a lower and higher option for both). Tiered pricing DOES allow for more GMs and more GMs means more areas, quests, events, etc.
I think that's it, I might come and comment occasionally, but for the most part I should be more silent.
Especially since this headache won't leave me.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
Hey at least nothing mentioned $39
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
In my view, although the tiered pricing system seems to work fine in MUDs, MMO players are a different animal, with different social dynamics, and I'd hope that Simutronics takes this into account. To illustrate what I mean, I'll tell a story that gives an example (please bear with me).
OK, this example isn't a perfect analogy to tiered pricing, since Jedi was acquired through grinding and not real-life money (though it's worth mentioning that there was a thriving eBay market in Jedi characters back then, which just added more fuel to the flames). The main point is how MMO players think, and how they'd react to it. From my experience in SWG, I'm convinced that those on the lower payment scales would resent what the premium players got. The premium players, in turn, would expect - no, demand - their money's worth; and if they got rewards proportional to spending five times as much per month, the non-premiums would get even more unhappy. Ultimately, I get the impression here that MUD players are (A) quite uniformly mature in age and/or attitude, and (B) less focused on acquisition and achievement. Those things are not true of the general MMO audience.
Let me also say that I'm not trying to flame here. I'm sure most of us are here on this forum because we're excited enough by what we've read about HJ to come and talk about it, even though it's still some way from release. So if even we are voicing concerns about tiered pricing, I'm certain (from all the time I've spent on game forums) that the controversy here is only a fraction of the mauling that would take place on a live game's forums - never mind that it could hurt review scores. Basically, I have high hopes for HJ, I'm just concerned that if Simutronics apply their existing pricing schemes without regard to the different audience of an MMO, it could be a blow against the game before it even launches. I don't want HJ being remembered as "it was a great game, if only they hadn't put people off and split the community with that tiered pricing, it would've been a major success."
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
Right Div, sure it could be that low. And if it is, I don't see it as much of a problem.
But wouldn't they get the same or more revenue by charging 12.50 for everyone instead of 10 for basic and 15 for Premium? Well, the average game charges 15 now. So how about 17.50 instead of 15 for basic and 20 for premium?
I think for me, it comes down to "what it's worth to me" on the tiered pricing.
I've read this whole thread with an open mind. My previous posts I know show me anti-tiered but I really was trying to see the otherside here.
It's not about money or that I don't have it.
Fundementally, it comes down to, I will NOT pay for one GAME with a monthly charge that is more than I pay for internet service. Honestly I don't want to even pay half that.
I see all the screaming about extra services and everything and honestly I can't add anymore to the conversation against that Mr.Shroom hasn't said very well already.
If this is inevitable though. I suppose what I'd like to see is serious segregation of the "I'm willing to pay buttloads for game" from the people who are "Not willing to go broke paying for a game" in terms of servers (Shards).
I think the EQ legends server has already been mentioned. Boy, did that go over well. lol
A note, my whole speculation is under the assumption that the cost could be somewhere above the $40 mark (This is of course speculation since nothing has been announced yet). If indeed it's something around $10 - $20. I could deal with that fine. But for me the $20 mark is the magic number for me.
Anyhow, I think after this I'm shutting up on this until someone at Simu releases some damn info.
I WON'T play HJ if they come out with a tiered pricing, simply put.
2. What I was trying to say was that time is a big deal to MMORPG players, but in DR (not an MMORPG) it was not as big a deal. However, now Mordiazi is saying that even in DR it was a big deal, which changes some things.
3. I was taking those examples and saying that if they were in an MMORPG, they would cause problems that may or may not have existed in DR.
The bottom line is that you can't just add graphics to an MUD and call it an MMORPG, expecting MMORPG players to pick it up and love it. Different games for crowds.
What are you talking about? I didn't mean that that's all I'm saying. Don't take things out of context. I'm not trying to say that tiered pricing is always bad and evil. It apparently worked in DR, but again, that was a different crowd. My main point here is that tiered pricing probably won't work as well in an MMORPG. I think that choosing a tiered system will hurt the game more than it will help. I haven't made up my mind. "On the fence" means that I haven't decided yet. Hey, no one said you couldn't try to do that, but wasn't that the point of this topic? We're discussing the pricing system of HJ which, as you know, doesn't exist yet. I'm not professing the evils of it, either. I'm professing the potential evils of it. (If "evils" is the word you insist on using.) Eh?"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I just have one comment..
How can you say DR (And GS) are not mmorpgs because they do not have graphics? DR actually ruined all graphic mmorpgs for me because they didn't compare.. They just weren't fun, pretty perhaps, but boring.
And apparently a picture is worth a thousand words, so you can't say text is more descriptive either. :P
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
While they certainly qualify for each letter in MMORPG, I think the average gamer (certainly at MMORPG.com, though not at play.net) considers text-based games to be MUDs regardless of their size; industry definitions are one thing, but popular opinion and public perception are another. I played, built, and admistrated MUDs for years, and even I tend to think of Simtronics' text games as MUDs. I still play a mud called "Prophecies of the Pattern" that has more features than your average MMO (including Faires, roleplay experience, reincarnation, complicated spellcasting, you name it), but I'd still consider it to be a MUD even if 3000 people were playing it at a time instead of 50.
In any case, the whole "is it" or "isn't it" topic makes for an interesting discussion, but perhaps not in this thread. The gamers Simutronics should be interested in getting are the ones who are currently playing other MMOs, not the ones they already have. Otherwise, they'd just be transferring income from one of their hands to the other. As such, initial impressions of more mainstream gamers (read: not necessarily "better" or "smarter," just more numerous) is bound to be more helpful than the feedback of players they already have when it comes to determining or presenting pricing, game features, and everything in between. If anything, it'd be better for Simutronics to keep their current subscribers exactly where they are, as it'll be easier to get new players into a brand new graphical game than to replace players leaving a decades-old text game, even if that text game is the best thing since sliced bread.
Cheers.
It breaks down to who their target audience is.
Is there a greater emphasis on their current customers? If so, they will probably stick with tiered pricing.
Or is there a greater emphasis on the general MMORPG audience? If that is the case, they shouldn't use a tiered system.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
A lot of premium members in DR have two accounts, so I don't see why they would have a problem with wanting to throw a little more HJs way and keep the accounts they already have.
I mean, if they're paying 55 bucks for two accounts for a text game, then why not add an extra 15 for one they can play with pictures? (I'm saying add on accounts, because that is what I would do.. I don't think I'll ever be able to totally give up DR.. way too addicting)
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
I just saw this post on the official forums and thought it was a pretty unbiased look at the issue considering the guy is currently playing a simutronics game with tiered pricing. He starts off almost defending it but by the end has decided that based on his experience (and he has played for years) tiered pricing would be a bad idea for HJ.
Every pro-tiered posts on the subject that I've read so far seems to fall into one of three distinct categories: Simu fans defending tiered pricing out of loyalty, people that prefer the in-game caste system created by the basic and premium players, and the few that think tiered pricing is the only way to keep HJ economically feasible.
Then there are those that worry about the effect tiered pricing could have on HJ, both financially and community-wise. These people are dismissed for mostly not having played previous simutronics games and having no real substantiative evidence to back up their worries, which makes a rational unbiased anti-tiered pricing post from an actual player all the more important.
Another person on the official boards claimed that the people still paying to play old-fashioned MUDs were fanatics. While I think the word is way too harsh, I think it's completely obvious that many of the people so staunchly defending tiered pricing, who are also the same people paying 50+ dollars to play a mud in 2006, are not only the minority but are also in no way representative of today's common mmorpg-player.
Heheh, I believe you were referring to me.
I really didn't mean it in a negative way - I for one prefer the richness of the text games I've played to the shallow beauty of the graphical games I've played. Anyhow, I'm going to copy and paste that post because I think it sums up why tiered pricing won't work (and why it won't result in more money. So many people seem to think that as long as a portion of the playerbase is paying more, Simu's net profit will go up. There are more variables than that, though.) Anyhow, here's the post.
Jpgankum (sp?) this is for you:
Typical management short-sightedness, IMO. Willing to do whatever you can for the dollar today, regardless of the cost tomorrow.
In Gemstone and Dragon Realms, where the playerbase are essentially fanatics (I don't mean this derogatorily, just in the sense that they're still playing text games), and Simu has been the big kahuna for a LONG time, yes - premium pricing works. It's also more of a necessity to help development along because the # of subscriptions is substantially lower than any of the popular 3D MMORPGS.
Why won't that success story carry over into HJ, should they implement tiered pricing? Well, the reasons are many-fold.
First: even if HJ brings some revolutionary aspects to the table they're still a small company and don't carry the weight of either a well known company or a well known license. A lot of competitors that are out now or will be out around HJ's release will have that advantage.
Second: premium pricing splits the community. There are no two ways about it. The ramifications of this are hard to predict with any accuracy, but a few things can be assured to happen in some degree
*Some players will never try HJ because they'll feel that they won't get the full experience w/o paying the premium price, and they refuse to pay that much
*Some players will whine endlessly about premies and there benefits. It is likely that they'll spread neutral or negative word of mouth b/c of the premium divide.
*Some players will be indifferent to the premium status.
*Some players will initially be indifferent to the premium status, but will grow upset upon the introduction of a specific premium only benefit down the road. They'll most likely start complaining loudly and possibly leave.
Third: For every player that never starts playing or leaves early because of the premium divide, the community as a whole is weakened. The weaker the community, the more difficult it is to draw and keep new players. A few key people (guild leaders and such) leaving b/c of the exorbitant (from their perspective) premium price could have a serious trickle down effect. If a few serious guilds leave the game, other guilds may be tempted to follow suit. This is especially likely if the guilds interest in the game is tied in any other way to other guilds (through world politics, rankings, and such).
Fourth: HJ is not ostensibly revolutionizing the genre, and to a lot of casual MMO players it may appear to be "just another fantasy MMO". It will be difficult as it is to attract those who are already rooted in another game - it will be impossible if they feel they'll have to pay twice as much to get an experience comparable to that which they currently have. It doesn't help than no one else is doing it, either.
Fifth: Even if a portion of the playerbase is paying the premium fee - that does not guarantee that Simu is actually netting more profit. You have to consider the # of people that either won't try the game or have left early b/c of the premium divide, and calculate the increased revenue of the premium accounts against the potential revenue of all the lost accounts. Of course, it's impossible to do anything but predict the # of accounts lost - and that's what makes it impossible to prove either way that premium will or won't yield more net profit. Given all of the negatives listed above I feel that premium accounts won't yield the most profit over the long term.
I should add that I'm not debating against premium pricing because I personally don't want to pay it. I'm debating against it because I believe that premium pricing will only harm the image of and the community in the game, and will also negatively impact the lifespan of the game.
I'd really like to see HJ do as well as it deserves, and I think any sort of tiered pricing is going to negatively impact that.
This is kind of funny, ImagiWorld (Seth).
I like how you repost here instead of responding to the counter arguments already made on the HJ forums. I'm not going to cut and paste what those people posted. If people here are interested, they can go read the thread. Besides, the debate on the HJ forums for this topic is much more informative and thought provoking.
Shroom_Mage:
I just can't debate with you because your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.
"I haven't made up my mind. "On the fence" means that I haven't decided yet."
You said you are on the fence about playing HJ or V. I said you have already made up your mind about tiered pricing. These are different points wise guy! Thanks for the useless "on the fence" definition.