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NO!!! You did not ruin D&D!!!
brentmain
Member Posts: 32
I can't believe this is supposed to be D&D. It isn't even close. The classes are not right. The magic system is not right. Combat is totally screwed up. Character creation is a joke. How could you even call this D&D?
Comments
What do you mean about the classes or character creation?
The magic system uses an alternate spell point system from the Unearthed Arcane book with modifications authorized by WotC (so its different, but still legit).
Yeah, some feats and stuff are different, but they had to change them to make them fit into an MMO.
*edit, it was unearthed arcane not complete arcane
* pulls out a +3 dwarven axe of Troll Bane *
Come 'ere &#$^%.
Nothing I love more than a detailed description of why someone doesnt like a game.
Unfortunately I havnt found that in this thread
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Despite having decent graphics the character creation is very lacking. Every character looks alike. There is very little detail that you can change when making a character. Also the didn't do justice to racial attributes. Warforge for example and not immune to poison and they can drown, this is completely against the race description. The combat system is dorked up. You can actually hit multiple targets in one swing. You can even hit a target you aren't aiming at.
All three of these things make it very NOT D&D.
How's that?
I thought the character models were adequately different, but I certainly agree there is room for improvement.
In PnP D&D I have seen a lot of targets hit that werent being aimed at. My nickname was (the lost Ranger). I always played a ranger and I always sucked LOL. I have critically missed and hit other targets on more than the odd occasion. I appreciate what your saying and whilst its RARE its not totally out of context.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
don't feed the troll.
eqnext.wikia.com
Call it what you will. I gave this game every chance in the world. I truly wanted it to work because I haven't found a D&D group in years. If this is what WoTC calls D&D then I fear for the future.
maybe because the pnp version is designed around being pnp, and a mmorpg is a different boat alltogether... If the pnp version was copied exactly it wouldnt work simply because they are played different. And frankly the only way a computer game will be true to dnd will be if it was like magic the gathering online, being a game that was a actual means to play the card game and not the game brought to life.
Rules Cyclopedia (1071 TSR) says differently...Wizards of the Crap (as they are know) absorb and destroy games, but that is a different topic entirely.
But tha alone isn't a reason to dislike a MMO really. All I found from trying it out was just a generally lack luster game. Didn't do anything all that well or sustainable in my eyes. All it really offered me was things I thought I hadn't done before, but I really had looking back over CoH/CoV WoW and a few other games.
But, that seems to be a common trend in the latest MMO releases overall, so i can't knock DDO on just that. I can knock the current industry though
Once you figure out the game I found AO more interesting overall personally and more sustainable. Which isn't a good thing when you consider the price differences.
Edit: my usual typos
Well someone was stating it did follow D&D rules and I stated where it doesn't and the reference to that information.
I played DDO in beta and stress test weekend also. It isn't sustainable. For quite a few things you NEED a group to lvl or finish a task. Thats great and all, but since it is also "casual friendly" ppl lvl too quickly. Eventually you will be stuck with pockets of ppl in similar lvl ranges which is a complain ppl have in most MMOs, but hurts DDO more than others the way the group adn missions are setup. Once the free trials are over the frustration of the low to mid lvl hump will start appearing and ppl will be getting vocal.
And the game play didn't mesh for me. Enter room, get a voiceover, click semi glowy object and goto next room. Hit middle of instance heal/pray/camp to learn spells and such. Kill XX monster that hardly has anythign to do with the plot half the time, get a reward voiceover, click semi glowy object and finish task and insta warp out. I can get that all in CoH/CoV with more character build options >M< just with a lil less story and more pointless killing. [As far as gameplay directly CoH/CoV is the closest as far as I can tell and so used for comparison]. Tell me what has DDO done new or improved?
I can't justify the price in its current state, but no MMO is the same 6 months after release...
Try reading about 80% of the threads in DD0 forum for your answers. I know you are just trying to be witty but there have been a LOT of people post why the above person is correct.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
I have to dissagree: They did not "have to change the magic system for it to work in an MMO".
Point of fact: Multiple MUDS (Multi User Domain), the pre-cursors to MMORPG's have successfully used the classic AD&D rulesets for YEARS without any major modifications to the spell casting systems.. Yes, many have used the spell point system but many have used the classic AD&D spell system quite successfully.
One of my favorite MUDs on the Internet was/is Arctic Mud. A Dragon Lance style Diku that uses the classic AD&D, DragonLance ruleset. And it adheres to it almost perfectly, right down to spell effects, combat type, etc. I played that MUD for years before UO came out... Matter of fact I still go back to it now and then.
So, no, they didn't HAVE to change the rules to make it work. They CHOSE to. Not saying the magic system is good or bad, it just is what it is. And most AD&D purists don't like it. Sure it's technically a "legal" alternative. But I can't ever remember playing a pnp campaign that used that alternative ruleset.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
For my next D&D product, I am waiting for Miniature to be released on the PSP.
Cleave is an AE attack...
RL reflex and skill, that is NOT D&D. D&D was designed to appeal to peoples who don't relly on RL skill...that is pretty much the basic, and that is pretty much what they didn't respect above all.
But, DDO is still a nice game...it should just have another name.
Exactly like if I would do a game about Everquest, the modifications I would bring it would never allow such a game to be called EQ or something similar, it would prolly goes along the lines of Legacy of Kelethin or something like that, since AN vision is definitely more uber than THE vision or just A vision.
To the peoples complaining about the MANA points...well...technically D&D was the FIRST rpg among those that release something in the last 5 years that actually use MANA (Oeil Noir is long dead I think and Warhammer was release after Glantri, Master expansion(the black book of levels 25-36) was not even released for old D&D when Glantri hits the shelves)...the fact you didn't know how the Glantrian Magic system work and that it was never adapted for AD&D don't change this point. However, the way they implement this NEW mana system make it NOT D&D...a level 1 cleric should not be able to heal an army after a fight...and this is merely an example of everything done wrong.
Razor: Your example of hitting another target on a critical miss is flawed...in D&D the only way to hit an accidental target was if you miss (not on a critical miss) and if you would have hit without the cover, than you hit the cover, not some random target...so if the cover is another creature, you hit this other creature. You obviously uses some home rule, local adaptation or minority later optional rule...this is not wrong...but the fact YOU use this weird variation in a D&D game doesn't make it a D&D feature...In fact, on a critical miss, you can't touch anything, since you use this attack roll and on a 1, you can't touch your other hand!
1 of the points that annoy me to most about DDO is the freaking amount of potions...D&D was never a heavy potion oriented game...yes there was potions...yes it is where all potions idea come from...but heavy potions reliance on such a general widespread way? Nope, potions are magical items and thereby cost a LOT and are relatively RARE! A level 2 warrior should not have 9457295 potions of healing and then be said he play D&D, this is not D&D. Potions are exceptions, to be used IN COMBAT, for EMERGENCY, not between combat to refuel faster!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Interesting...I can understand how you feel those games are similar.
For me CoV/CoH is my favorite MMO, and DDO is by far the worst, I can't bear it...even if it would have other names.
Like I said, I understand your comparaisons, the points that matter for you. But for my points, for what matter for me...those two games can't be more widespread, more afar.
For me, DDO is rather close to a Sonic version of a MMO, where you have to jump to the right place, move to the right place, face the mob the right way and be the right distance...In CoH/CoV you have none of those nasty aspects...I can just click my attack and my character will turn itself on it own to accomplish it...select a mob at random or select automatically an attacker...I don't have to accomplish skill jump based on ME...Like I said...I understand how they are close for you...but for me...they are not even on the same planet, nothing to be compare to...the basics, the foundations, are not of the same type.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Rules Cyclopedia (1071 TSR) says differently...Wizards of the Crap (as they are know) absorb and destroy games, but that is a different topic entirely.
But tha alone isn't a reason to dislike a MMO really. All I found from trying it out was just a generally lack luster game. Didn't do anything all that well or sustainable in my eyes. All it really offered me was things I thought I hadn't done before, but I really had looking back over CoH/CoV WoW and a few other games.
But, that seems to be a common trend in the latest MMO releases overall, so i can't knock DDO on just that. I can knock the current industry though
Once you figure out the game I found AO more interesting overall personally and more sustainable. Which isn't a good thing when you consider the price differences.
Edit: my usual typos
Rules Cycopledia?? you mean the 20 years old book about BASIC D&D?
Well, flash for you, they are using 3.5 edition rules. the ones released recently, not the red box.
So whatever that book says, it has no application whatsoever on nowadays D&D edition nor DDO.
So.. the OP thinks this is not D&D because.... the Warforged (that are part of the Eberron setting and not the normal D&D races) are now immune to poison and... oh yes! you can hit two targets while swinging a sword...
If THOSE are the only thing why you think this is not D&D, I think you have to review them carefully.
To me, they seems really trivial details, but hey! maybe it is just me.
Bigger things? Real time game, reflex based, No roleplaying at all that the game supports strikes me as a little more important. (meaning, you can roleplay with your pals in the tavern, but the npcs do not do much for it).
The magic system? Yes, they choose to go with the points system instead of the memorize and I think it was the right idea for the game they have in place. A typical D&D group cannot handle more than 3-4 encounters before being out of spells. This even suppose that the casters do not go blasting stuff at every occasion (let's not remember that by normal rule a 1st level wizard can cast daily a very limited amount of spells, and after that? he is gonna bash the enemy with his staff or what?).
But here, you have dozens of encounter in each dungeon. There is no way the old slots system would work taken "as is". of course you can argue they could boost up the number of slots available and you would be right, but it doesn't seems to me that big of a change. They have everybody act like a sorcerer and changed from slots to a more versatile points system.
AS i said, i think the problems of this game are others.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Hmm... as far as I could ever tell it was always away from the "avid fan" side. What's happening now is that since the E3 announcements more of the fans have left the game than ever.
Even when the fans of the game WERE loud, around 90% of people who tried DDO felt it wasn't worth a monthly fee. Backed up by polls at numerous sites, including this one. THAT is why Turbine is throwing in solo content and PVP. Unfortunately for them that isn't enough. The problems I have always seen loudest about DDO have nothing to do with PvP. Solo content will help a little... but it's only one small piece of the puzzle.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Hmm... as far as I could ever tell it was always away from the "avid fan" side. What's happening now is that since the E3 announcements more of the fans have left the game than ever.
Even when the fans of the game WERE loud, around 90% of people who tried DDO felt it wasn't worth a monthly fee. Backed up by polls at numerous sites, including this one. THAT is why Turbine is throwing in solo content and PVP. Unfortunately for them that isn't enough. The problems I have always seen loudest about DDO have nothing to do with PvP. Solo content will help a little... but it's only one small piece of the puzzle.
Guess I was basing my opionion off the DDO forums where during BETA I was gang beat for stating the problems with DDO.
Hmm... as far as I could ever tell it was always away from the "avid fan" side. What's happening now is that since the E3 announcements more of the fans have left the game than ever.
Even when the fans of the game WERE loud, around 90% of people who tried DDO felt it wasn't worth a monthly fee. Backed up by polls at numerous sites, including this one. THAT is why Turbine is throwing in solo content and PVP. Unfortunately for them that isn't enough. The problems I have always seen loudest about DDO have nothing to do with PvP. Solo content will help a little... but it's only one small piece of the puzzle.
Guess I was basing my opionion off the DDO forums where during BETA I was gang beat for stating the problems with DDO.
Bad thing about the official forums:
Only people PLAYING DDO can post there
Now... if the OFFICIAL forums are starting to change then DDO is in a serious world of hurt. That's a small audience to begin with. I ran the numbers:
90% of poll respondents (not just here, but numerous sites I read) state the game isn't worth it's current monthly fee.
DDO announced UNIT sales of 300k (That's boxes sold to RETAIL outlets, not people).
So doing basic math, if EVERY box sold that is 300,000 people that tried the game
If 90% feel it's not worth a monthly fee then that leaves 30,000 people paying a monthlly fee.
30k players isn't enough to pay off a 40 million dollar debt. Turbine is in deep trouble. And that 300k people is GENEROUS. Odds are it's more likely that 150k to 200k people actually bought the game and the other 100k are still on shelves. Otherwise the number would be much higher than 300k units sold because stores would have bought more to re-stock.
So if the number is 200k people bought the game then only 20k people are subscribers at this point.
Granted: This is theoretical because Turbine has not released subscriber numbers. Even though they COULD do so. If they had 300,000 SUBSCRIBERS they would have been screaming to the hills about it because THAT would be something to be proud of.
300k units sold is just PR fluff saying "the game is selling!!!" But no real income seen yet. Another bad thing about unit sales: Retailers can return the merchandise to turbine and demand a refund. If it gets into the hands of joe-user that's not possible once they register the key.
A Registered user is guaranteed income. A Unit sale is not.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Don't know if you saw this. I threw it onto another thread:
http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35420
There are some serious fanboys on this one. If you look at the posters, a lot are Founders.
Well I tried DDO over the weekend and even though I ALWAYS try to find the positive in just about any game, even if it's not what I'm into, but this is really just aweful stuff.
I kinda had a decent idea of what to expect going into the game, I knew it was largely instanced and figured I could live with that to a degree, I knew there was no crafting and again, that's something I can live with even though I almost always enjoy crafting above combat in most MMO's and I also knew about the more or less forced grouping, which to me seemed ideal because I love dungeon crawling with people, intense fighting and getting to know players.
Unfortunately DDO is no where near that exciting or interactive. I found the character selection screen woefull but that's certainly not game ending, what was daunting was the beginers quests, at points so difficult and I wondered what the point of it all was.
The instancing was as I expected but much worse, I mean seriously people, instances all over town ON TOP of all the external instancing. Public spaces were more then just dead, THEY HAD NO LIFE to speak of, immersion is quite literally impossible with this game.
And the dungeon crawls I was looking forward too ? Once you finally manage to get a group together, if the servers and login don't buck their ugly heads (more on this later), I found most of them bairly spoke to each other, unless it was absolutely necessary. Then, although the first few quests were somewhat interesting, I found most players just wanted to do nothing but dungeon grind which was utterly beyond me.
Even if you can live with the poor char creation tools, even if you can live with the blandness of the world afterwards, what I couldn't live with after all was said and done was the server issues that make the WoW servers almost seemed organized. Over this weekend I got dropped or disconnected no less then 20 times, sometimes I could log back in, quite often I could not. There were very little announcement on the main site that I could find anyways, and all I could really find were official forums filled with disspleased players.
With everything missing in this game, (a la: player housing, open spaces, exploration, pvp, solo content, crafting, continue long list here) I find it amazing that what they DO have, they do very poorly. I do undestand that the D&D name carries a certain wheight and that alone will create fans, but if you were take away this games name, I just don't see how it would ever survive in the current gaming market, especially the MMO market.
Anyways, sorry for the long rant fest, I just thought I'd offer my oppinion as a newbie to DDO to this particular conversation as it seems slightly topical.
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