Did she actually say anything in that article? I don't mean to sound quite so nasty, but here's what I remember after reading it:
1) The ability to solo play is... good?
2) Levels and experience are an important part of MMORPGs
3) Some separation between MMO and RPG that wasn't very cleary defined...
4) Jabbering about cookies...?
Maybe I just didn't get the point of the article but while it was entertaining to read, I came away not really knowing anything more about development, MMOs, or Hero's Journey.
All I have is this vague feeling that the author's priorities in MMORPGs (whatever they are) are quite different from my own. Anyone else get this feeling?
Originally posted by Haladar 1) The ability to solo play is... good? 2) Levels and experience are an important part of MMORPGs 3) Some separation between MMO and RPG that wasn't very cleary defined... 4) Jabbering about cookies...?
Okay let me start off with, numba 1.
Yes the ability to play solo is very good. I personally don't really like grouping. I like being able to do things by myself.. And if I want to hang out with some people while I level, I can do that too. The thing is, some people don't have the time to look for a group.. or some people, like me, just prefer doing it themselves. I have nothing against talking to people and hanging out with friends, but I like to hunt by myself, and my down time between hunting is the time I take to do that.
now 2.
Yes, levels and exp are important parts of mmorpg, because there should be a sense of gain.. of accomplishment.. But they aren't the only parts that are fun. Maybe the fact that Elanthia will constantly be evolving, the quests always being something new.. or perhaps our customization is what will make us truly a hit.. But I think it will be a combination of EVERYTHING we're doing with the game.
3. .. Well I'm not quite sure what to say about this. I can say I kinda thought it should have been titled something else.. Maybe putting the game back into rpg or something.. Not rpg into mmo..
and 4.
Who can live without cookies? Cookies are a damn important part of everyday life. Anyway, you shouldn't take things quite so seriously, this isn't an interview, it's some personal thoughts of a particularly creative GM. I feel like these are more so you can get to know at least one of the GMs working on HJ.. The rest of us, well we're either in hiding, or sneaking around the forums.
Most MMO's allow for a great deal of RP in their G but it's the player who makes the decision on whether or not to seize the opportunities. Certain games (HJ being of this genre) launch with the intent to populate servers with roleplayers, whereas other games launch with other intents -- twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play.
World of Warcraft has a couple-three RP servers on which I find very little roleplay in the classic sense. I've found ninja looters who believe that culling your loot before you do is their way of roleplaying a thief. We are all familiar with Barrens chat, which speaks volumes about the nature of players of MMOs in this day and age in that game: they are young, experts at console titles, incredibly intelligent about games, leveling systems, and in-game rewards. Can they roleplay? Mostly no. Are they encouraged to try? Not often enough. Why? There is no reward (personally or mechanically) for roleplaying.
Lest you think this is an exclusive-to-WoW proclivity, this generalization can be applied to most servers in Everquest II as well. A good chunk of the population is more concerned with getting through new tasks than kicking back and fellowshiping in the pursuit of good roleplay.
Game designers can pour thousands of personal work-hours into crafting a perfect roleplaying environment (like, believe it or not, Star Wars: Galaxies or Lineage II) and end up with servers populated by game players instead of roleplayers. There is a huge difference between these types of customers. Yes, you can craft a twitch game that is heavy with roleplay but in all likelihood, if the audience that plays twitch games isn't used to roleplaying, they aren't going to recognize the environmental reasons to do it. HJ plans to offer them tangible, recognizable opportunities, but it is still up to the player to seek them out. If a player or group of players is more accustomed to level chasing, they're going to bypass the RP content entirely.
What HJ intends to do is marry the need to level with the compulsion to roleplay. We are creating situations in everyday tasks that reward players who look closely at their environment for concrete starts to roleplaying. To bypass them wouldn't hurt anyone, but to engage them is to make the overall experience richer not just for the immediate player or group but for their peers who were off on their own adventures in another part of town. It is a game in which players create their own lore, and that lore will be supported by the gamemasters. Yes, you read that right, gamemasters will support the gameplay -- a shocking idea in the current world of MMOs but nothing new to us. We've been doing it for years.
So like, you guys are going to free roll stat points each level? Skill points each level? Standard you reach a certain level as a warrior / thief; you get this skill modified by this stat? Or as in pen and paper games or say even the Elder Scroll series shall the player define their role by crafting a 'useable' skill set on their own? That always helped me get into character.
Also are you going to dumb down the combo system and the spell 'draw to execute' line just because there's going to be a lot of gamers / rpgers out there who just can't hack the pressure of doing something correctly?
Game play and role play can coincide. To see in text the people who preached it earlier saying it just won't happen is rather disheartening.
As for the Barren's chat, MMOs have their ooc-yahoo-irc-likeness for those us on the RPPVP servers turning off general seems to remedy that problem.
RPers will RP.
A suggestion that I won't bother my guild master with posting on the HJ innerloop forums since indeed you folks are here.
Have a few servers set aside for online prank kiddies and RP kill joys, they get reported enough times let them go 1337 there.
Seriously tho'. I like the surprise factor in MMOs. If you guys do mob placement and no surprise game play that dev journal #3 basically screamed in such a manner the oddity and exploration factor is destroyed while gaming then you'll just have an EQ 2 or WoW clone where everyone will just be bland chatting about their class combo and how l33t they've leveled up their gear. Which is a feature that may have been wrongly explained to me.
You can cut that out, keep innovative twitchy/strategic game play, and toss in some in game rp opps for the players and still make a great game.
The tone lately, with this topic and the reply. Just raises more questions.
"twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play."
Oblivion will probably sell a million copies within a couple of weeks. We'll probably get the whole use the mouse and move a bit to twitch your combat system they've always had. It'll force people to RP and pay attention to the back story, the surrounding, and the quests to advance. Sure the player never gets to interact with (DrrzztDrowface) and ruin the emerged but yeah, twitch gaming can make even non-RPers RP. They won't even realize they're doing it. I think they can.
Sure if you guys want to pick on Doom online gamers and say they ruin most MMOs cuz they just like to banter. There's fixes. Toss that up in a DEV journal. Tell folks..
"If you're a hardcore gamer who hates instance content and intend to just /shout over and over ROLLPLAYERS R GEHY on our RP servers, we'll move your sorry asses to the HARDCORE server where you can all banter and banter and ignore our lore all the live long day." Then that'd tell me you're bringing the RPG back to the MMORPG.
I enjoyed EQ1s off the wall things such as the tree glitch. Seeing the Eye of Zom for the first time. Being grav fluxed as a rogue over a chasm of death, because my safe fall would let me live, and searching around at a place a lot of other players never made it too. All the role playing my pals and I did in Ultima, even while PvPing a raze across a lower leveled town, it happened it can happen.
It all can happen. I just really hate seeing the reverse language in your guy's posts. A lot of dumbing down on the system I previously downloaded the videos to see seems to be taking place just cuz.. You guys think*(edit) RPers can't handle gaming?
So if gamers can't RP, RPers can't game? Is that the policy I'm seeing here? Is fun to play like EQ 2s we're basically going to give you the same rogue swashbuckler with the illusion of choice? No, please? Just no.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I don't believe any of us has identified any class of player as being less than worthy of consideration in the design of Hero's Journey or that one style of play cannot coincide with another style of play.
HJ intends to encourage roleplay as a complement to game play. Roleplay is a hallmark of Simu games so it's a top priority. But we'd be remiss if we didn't recognize that current MMO players have vastly different expectations, or that the term "roleplay" is not the same now as it was ten years ago.
In fact, you know what would be interesting, is if you responded with your definitions of roleplay. I would be interested in what's similar or not so similar in the replies.
I am so sick of these so called "GM"'s all they ever do is kiss Simutronics butt and talk about how they've played their other games. Well i have news for you people, Simutronics other games suck, not only do they suck, they suck so bad I wouldn't even know they were games until one of those "GM"'s was talking about some crap game called Dragon Realms and something else I can't even think of because it probably sucks so bad know one cares about it. Lets just face it Simutronics dropped the ball on the fact that they think that just because you fart around in a game that gives you some right to advance in the game, give me a break, they obviously have no idea what they are doing because they find fools like you poeple to make their game for them without even paying people, they sound like a total failure and a big scam.................So quit kissing their butts, it's disgusting. I can't stand when people talk about how great some small, NO NAME COMPANY is so great when they haven't done made a single successful game, not some poop text based games that no one plays except some computer geek that has nothing, and I mean nothing else to do. Get with the real world and just except the fact that this game will probably never come out because I've heard about this game for quite some time and have seen nothing but half rate screenshots and a crappy movie that they demo'd at E3, which by the way looked like the and sounded like it was entirely scripted, they probably worked for weeks on that crappy movie and demo and it didn't appear to me to be an actual working game. So their I feel better, I'm just sick of you so called GM's disagreeing with every single thing that we say and all you ever do is kiss Simutronics butt. Give it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, from a non-GM, I would have to say you are wrong on a couple of points, and right on a few others. You are wrong in saying they are not successful. Simutronics is a successful company, they make money, etc. So they actually have money and can get funding to build a game such as Hero's Journey.
I think you may be right a little bit in that Simutronics does not have the success of WOW, of course not many do. They get about 6000-7000 players to log on a day. That is not niche, and not mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.
On the 'Can Simutronics make a game that will be a success?', probably, are they as in-tune with the folks that play the graphical type games as they need to be, probably not. I have not seen them give outward representation of this.
Yes, it does get a little trying hearing the same group of people say you will love it, this is how it was done elsewhere, etc. I would have liked to think that this was much further along than they let on with their initial timeline and all. I believe E3 in May will paint a very very clear picture of where HJ is currently in the timeline of development, and possibly we will even get a scheduled Beta timeframe.
I think if you talked intelligently about your issues, you could get someone to actually address them.
Comments
Ummm, what the hell?
Did she actually say anything in that article? I don't mean to sound quite so nasty, but here's what I remember after reading it:
1) The ability to solo play is... good?
2) Levels and experience are an important part of MMORPGs
3) Some separation between MMO and RPG that wasn't very cleary defined...
4) Jabbering about cookies...?
Maybe I just didn't get the point of the article but while it was entertaining to read, I came away not really knowing anything more about development, MMOs, or Hero's Journey.
All I have is this vague feeling that the author's priorities in MMORPGs (whatever they are) are quite different from my own. Anyone else get this feeling?
Okay let me start off with, numba 1.
Yes the ability to play solo is very good. I personally don't really like grouping. I like being able to do things by myself.. And if I want to hang out with some people while I level, I can do that too. The thing is, some people don't have the time to look for a group.. or some people, like me, just prefer doing it themselves. I have nothing against talking to people and hanging out with friends, but I like to hunt by myself, and my down time between hunting is the time I take to do that.
now 2.
Yes, levels and exp are important parts of mmorpg, because there should be a sense of gain.. of accomplishment.. But they aren't the only parts that are fun. Maybe the fact that Elanthia will constantly be evolving, the quests always being something new.. or perhaps our customization is what will make us truly a hit.. But I think it will be a combination of EVERYTHING we're doing with the game.
3. .. Well I'm not quite sure what to say about this. I can say I kinda thought it should have been titled something else.. Maybe putting the game back into rpg or something.. Not rpg into mmo..
and 4.
Who can live without cookies? Cookies are a damn important part of everyday life. Anyway, you shouldn't take things quite so seriously, this isn't an interview, it's some personal thoughts of a particularly creative GM. I feel like these are more so you can get to know at least one of the GMs working on HJ.. The rest of us, well we're either in hiding, or sneaking around the forums.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
Most MMO's allow for a great deal of RP in their G but it's the player who makes the decision on whether or not to seize the opportunities. Certain games (HJ being of this genre) launch with the intent to populate servers with roleplayers, whereas other games launch with other intents -- twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play.
World of Warcraft has a couple-three RP servers on which I find very little roleplay in the classic sense. I've found ninja looters who believe that culling your loot before you do is their way of roleplaying a thief. We are all familiar with Barrens chat, which speaks volumes about the nature of players of MMOs in this day and age in that game: they are young, experts at console titles, incredibly intelligent about games, leveling systems, and in-game rewards. Can they roleplay? Mostly no. Are they encouraged to try? Not often enough. Why? There is no reward (personally or mechanically) for roleplaying.
Lest you think this is an exclusive-to-WoW proclivity, this generalization can be applied to most servers in Everquest II as well. A good chunk of the population is more concerned with getting through new tasks than kicking back and fellowshiping in the pursuit of good roleplay.
Game designers can pour thousands of personal work-hours into crafting a perfect roleplaying environment (like, believe it or not, Star Wars: Galaxies or Lineage II) and end up with servers populated by game players instead of roleplayers. There is a huge difference between these types of customers. Yes, you can craft a twitch game that is heavy with roleplay but in all likelihood, if the audience that plays twitch games isn't used to roleplaying, they aren't going to recognize the environmental reasons to do it. HJ plans to offer them tangible, recognizable opportunities, but it is still up to the player to seek them out. If a player or group of players is more accustomed to level chasing, they're going to bypass the RP content entirely.
What HJ intends to do is marry the need to level with the compulsion to roleplay. We are creating situations in everyday tasks that reward players who look closely at their environment for concrete starts to roleplaying. To bypass them wouldn't hurt anyone, but to engage them is to make the overall experience richer not just for the immediate player or group but for their peers who were off on their own adventures in another part of town. It is a game in which players create their own lore, and that lore will be supported by the gamemasters. Yes, you read that right, gamemasters will support the gameplay -- a shocking idea in the current world of MMOs but nothing new to us. We've been doing it for years.
Question tho'.
So like, you guys are going to free roll stat points each level? Skill points each level? Standard you reach a certain level as a warrior / thief; you get this skill modified by this stat? Or as in pen and paper games or say even the Elder Scroll series shall the player define their role by crafting a 'useable' skill set on their own? That always helped me get into character.
Also are you going to dumb down the combo system and the spell 'draw to execute' line just because there's going to be a lot of gamers / rpgers out there who just can't hack the pressure of doing something correctly?
Game play and role play can coincide. To see in text the people who preached it earlier saying it just won't happen is rather disheartening.
As for the Barren's chat, MMOs have their ooc-yahoo-irc-likeness for those us on the RPPVP servers turning off general seems to remedy that problem.
RPers will RP.
A suggestion that I won't bother my guild master with posting on the HJ innerloop forums since indeed you folks are here.
Have a few servers set aside for online prank kiddies and RP kill joys, they get reported enough times let them go 1337 there.
Seriously tho'. I like the surprise factor in MMOs. If you guys do mob placement and no surprise game play that dev journal #3 basically screamed in such a manner the oddity and exploration factor is destroyed while gaming then you'll just have an EQ 2 or WoW clone where everyone will just be bland chatting about their class combo and how l33t they've leveled up their gear. Which is a feature that may have been wrongly explained to me.
You can cut that out, keep innovative twitchy/strategic game play, and toss in some in game rp opps for the players and still make a great game.
The tone lately, with this topic and the reply. Just raises more questions.
"twitch games are in a genre that generally doesn't consider RP content as a Top Three reason to play."
Oblivion will probably sell a million copies within a couple of weeks. We'll probably get the whole use the mouse and move a bit to twitch your combat system they've always had. It'll force people to RP and pay attention to the back story, the surrounding, and the quests to advance. Sure the player never gets to interact with (DrrzztDrowface) and ruin the emerged but yeah, twitch gaming can make even non-RPers RP. They won't even realize they're doing it.
I think they can.
Sure if you guys want to pick on Doom online gamers and say they ruin most MMOs cuz they just like to banter. There's fixes. Toss that up in a DEV journal. Tell folks..
"If you're a hardcore gamer who hates instance content and intend to just /shout over and over ROLLPLAYERS R GEHY on our RP servers, we'll move your sorry asses to the HARDCORE server where you can all banter and banter and ignore our lore all the live long day." Then that'd tell me you're bringing the RPG back to the MMORPG.
I enjoyed EQ1s off the wall things such as the tree glitch. Seeing the Eye of Zom for the first time. Being grav fluxed as a rogue over a chasm of death, because my safe fall would let me live, and searching around at a place a lot of other players never made it too. All the role playing my pals and I did in Ultima, even while PvPing a raze across a lower leveled town, it happened it can happen.
It all can happen. I just really hate seeing the reverse language in your guy's posts. A lot of dumbing down on the system I previously downloaded the videos to see seems to be taking place just cuz.. You guys think*(edit) RPers can't handle gaming?
So if gamers can't RP, RPers can't game? Is that the policy I'm seeing here? Is fun to play like EQ 2s we're basically going to give you the same rogue swashbuckler with the illusion of choice? No, please? Just no.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I don't believe any of us has identified any class of player as being less than worthy of consideration in the design of Hero's Journey or that one style of play cannot coincide with another style of play.
HJ intends to encourage roleplay as a complement to game play. Roleplay is a hallmark of Simu games so it's a top priority. But we'd be remiss if we didn't recognize that current MMO players have vastly different expectations, or that the term "roleplay" is not the same now as it was ten years ago.
In fact, you know what would be interesting, is if you responded with your definitions of roleplay. I would be interested in what's similar or not so similar in the replies.
Well, from a non-GM, I would have to say you are wrong on a couple of points, and right on a few others. You are wrong in saying they are not successful. Simutronics is a successful company, they make money, etc. So they actually have money and can get funding to build a game such as Hero's Journey.
I think you may be right a little bit in that Simutronics does not have the success of WOW, of course not many do. They get about 6000-7000 players to log on a day. That is not niche, and not mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.
On the 'Can Simutronics make a game that will be a success?', probably, are they as in-tune with the folks that play the graphical type games as they need to be, probably not. I have not seen them give outward representation of this.
Yes, it does get a little trying hearing the same group of people say you will love it, this is how it was done elsewhere, etc. I would have liked to think that this was much further along than they let on with their initial timeline and all. I believe E3 in May will paint a very very clear picture of where HJ is currently in the timeline of development, and possibly we will even get a scheduled Beta timeframe.
I think if you talked intelligently about your issues, you could get someone to actually address them.
marc.