Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Static vs Dynamic MMORPG- can Dynamic Worlds compete?
Huntn
Member Posts: 284
Seems like most of the most popular MMOs are static world settings. (Players gain experience and level, but nothing in the virtual world changes, plus all players are guaranteed the same questing opportunities.) My understanding is that dynamic virtual worlds are much more difficult to design to appeal to a large number of people. If players change the virtual world, then not all players will have the same opportunities for quests, but the world in question should be a lot more entertaining. For a little background, I 'll refer you to The MMO Lull and to the WoW-Life After 60 article. Before you scream that both of these reside on a Mac gaming site, the discussion is focused on MMORPGs not Macs. 
Examples of dynamic world activities: build things that remain on the landscape, unique quests first come first serve, quests whose outcomes change the dynamics of the game.
Are there any existing (or future with potential) outstanding dynamic world MMOs out there with a variety of quest types, (not just the kill and collect quests that prevail in WoW) and include combat?
Is it agreed, that if they can be designed properly, dynamic world MMOs would have as much if not more appeal than a static world MMO?
Thanks!
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Comments
Once upon a time....
I see your point. Maybe I should have said "mostly dynamic".
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
The future of MMOs has got to go dynamic if they wanna hold onto business. One of the best parts of playing pen and paper D&D was that with a good group of players, your characters could become godlike and do some amazing feat that shaped the future of the universe. A truly epic ending to any good campaign is 1000x more exciting than any MMO i have played so far.
True, our characters can attain godlike status, but so what? everyone else is godlike too, and we don't do a damn thing to influence the world.
Which FF Character Are You?
"And when everyone is special, no one will be..."- Syndrome
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
The problem dude is that we haven't seen what a dynamic world can do yet.
For example. (Note: Theorycraft follows)
Elder Scrolls : Oblivion has advanced A.I. in it, dubbed 'Radiant AI' that enables the NPCs to have wants, needs, desires and means by which they can achieve them. Now, i'm not sure how well this system works as I don't have it yet (few days /cry), but if the essence is to give computer characters the ability to seem more lifelike with real needs, it seems natural to give them the ability to judge what threats there are to them.
If we have NPCs that can determine what or who is a threat to them at any given moment, then in theory that could lead to a dynamic quest system that creates quests on the fly depending on 1) Current threats or Current Needs 2) NPC's ability to offer reward.
If for example a cave in the hills above a village was populated by race of creatures, they could over time multiply in numbers until they threaten the village below. At this point the creatures would strart roaming (decent AI of their own) into the town and attacking villagers, killing lifestock or stealing goods. A villager who happens to have some money from his trading in town offers a reward to anyone you can protect his farm from attack, and players who happen to be in the vicinity can take up the quest. This quest won't be there all the time, as that villager may have different needs/wants in the future, and therefore offer different quests to adventures who walk past. Perhaps NPCs if the situation gets dire enough with no help from passing players could dispatch an NPC to a nearby town to request aid, and if no players come to help then they could hire other NPCs to help defend. Sometimes i think it would be cool to suddenly come upon something in progress, that would feel very alive and vibrant to me, don't know bout you!
Let's say that players eagerly leap to the task of killing the creatures, even so much as to band together and eradicate them from the cave. Given that the cave is part of a large cave system within the mountain, the same or most likely different creatures could crawl up from the depths to retake the cave as their lair. In our world good lair spots rarely lie untaken, as creatures will often take over one anothers burrows when the others leave.
Consider that after the players have cleansed the area, perhaps the villages are now safe from attack from the cave. Now think how cool would it be if players who had been there before thought they might go up to that cave and clear out the creatures again, only to find that the creatures couldn't retake the cave cause a drake moved in to nest. The Drake, being a reasonably powerful creature, owns the utter crap out of the foolish player who just charged in there swords flailing. The village however is unaware of the drake's presence as the creature is yet to menace the villagers, but perhaps if left unhassled it would lay eggs and BAM! flying lizards everywhere, lots of DRAMA!!!
I would like a world that at least changes with time, some big changes caused by players would be good, but lots of little changes make a difference as well. The village might thank you for killing the little mobs, but sing your praises for slaying the big bad that moved in, and just cause it happens once doesn't mean it'll happen again.
I'll say it again, technology is gonna give us some cool things folks, we are at the beginning of something fantastic i think, and i quite frankly I can't bloody wait!
I voted for both because i kinda think of them as 2 different genres.
It is almost impossible, with limited development resources and time, to do a game that would be both without letting down fan from both sides.
Static games tends to be more immediate games, easier to understand and to get in as the game is more linear in progress. I have defined them in the past as "theme park" games because the various activities are like rides you would find in a theme park. You enter and there are the rides, visibles to all. you choose one, do it and move to the next and so on until you are done.
Dynamic games are more non-linear free form games that requires more effort and time from the average player simply because of their nature.
I see the two genres continuing to exist side to side and not necessarily supplanting each other simply because they can appeal to different kind of people. The chances you become somebody specials are really small in a dynamic game, you will be just one of many unless you have the will and effort to do work, that might be not fun, with the community, build cities, run them and so on.
In a theme park game, you will eventually become a hero. of course one of many as well, but you are not nobody, you did great deeds and saved the world 3 times over, it is the same appeal that single player RPG usually have.
Finally, my belief is that Theme parks games have a fixed amount of entertainment they offer. This entertainment level variates a little but not much depending on how much time you put in the game.
Dynamic games, on the other hand, have this variation a loooot wider. Put little time and effort in a dynamic game, like EVE, and you get only frustration in return. Put some more and you get little entertainment. put more and more and you get more and more in return.
Personally, i am higly intrigued by the dynamic world concept but i lack the time or the effort to dedicate myself completely to just one game and even than i am not sure i would be able to have enough time for it
So, for the moment, i am stuck with theme park games, but i do keep an eye on dynamic games every now and then. Trials of Ascension promises to be one such game (but who knows when, and if, will get released), Dark & light was/is supposed to be one as well, but the game is having some serious trouble at the moment, at least by hearing the forums here on mmorpg.com (and asking full price for a pre-order is always a bad sign, means the company is small and need cash).
Tabula Rasa? Ah well that game is a mystery that only Lord British knows of. Before we know what game it will be, we will have to see it on the shelves.
Have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
The problem is, a truly dynamic world doesn't work. In real life, you kill someone, the cops catch you and you go to jail. You suffer a very dire consequence for breaking the law. In a game, your character dies, you hit respawn. If that character gets too 'hot', you create a new one. That's why killing a NPC and having him die won't work, because although 95% of the game population won't do it, there's that 5% that will go around wreaking havoc on everything. Having static content doesn't allow them to do anything like this, or only allows for a very temporary effect on the game world.
Dynamic content does work to a certain extent, like it does in EVE Online and Second Life, but you still need static content in order to keep the sense of structure. I say the best thing is to give players tools that they can work with in a static environment, such as being able to build structures (but not destroy any of the pre-existing ones) or create environments (but not alter the rest of the world in any way).
Well I've noticed in DnL (SoG) which is more or less a dynamic world that a few people are having problems with it's open-endness. Spawns moving, mobs migrating, some say they cant find mobs, or mobs are not layed out in a logical way insted many levels of mobs could be mixed up in one area. Camping is also difficult, because if you camp too long all the mobs in the area will dissapear or move on, people have complained this slows down leveling. This will only get worse when they release DnL with all feature turned on.
At this time, I don't think people understand what a dynamic world does to game play and are often left confused... I think static games will be here a long time to come... just easier to pickup and play
The only dynamic world's are Real Time Strategy games and Turn Based Strategy games. And SWG, but the devs really screwed SWG up.
Player owned structures in Shadowbane and Eve Online dont count, and neither does capture the flag in wwiionine and planetside.
Ill tell you why Player owned strucutres in shadowbane and Eve Online dont count. Because they have a bajillion hitpoints, and they take a bajillion credits/gold to build, and it requires the effort of a bajillion players in a guild to create. They might as well be put in by the developer for all practical purposes because your just one cog in the great gear-o-grind. I never felt any connection to them. Except in SWG, but boy did the devs really screw that game up. Damn SOE.
I'd guess that a problem of creating a fully dynamic content can't be solved easily. Dynamics is based on some rules and if the content is constantly changing based on those same rules it eventually becomes static. The solution is to extend those rules probably, but that is allready beyond the original design and will reach its limit eventually. This is very close in concept to a game where you can do what you like and where you like, but even if implemented to some extend there is a ton of other problems to arise. So its all relalative. I voted Static + Dynamic btw.
-------------
Emperium Online
<double post>
-------------
Emperium Online
I'm sorry what game are you referring to- DnL (SoG)? I just went down the list of MMOs and don't see it.
Actually is there a good MMORPG that has an extensively dynamic world in existence? While I don't think companies can spit out static content at a rate to keep up with players, I don't know of a dynamic world MMO that offers the kind of action that I saw in Planetside or WoW.
I was playing with Neverwinter Nights today and got bored with it pretty quick. I realize the social aspects of a MMO keep my interest level higher.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Having played PS for 18 months I mostly agree that all though base ownership changes hands, that was about all that was dynamic. After a while it bugged me that all of the base types were exactly the same, and although components could be damaged, the main infrastructure of a base was not effected. After a long while the been-there-done-that feeling really sunk in and I quit.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
Tech aint there yet Huntn, that's why you haven't seen it and there isn't good examples of what it can do. EVE Online is a good example of some of the things that a dynamic game can have, but that doesn't have the same type of action that games like WoW have. I think a dynamic game will have action that WoW could only dream of, but it also might not be everyone's cup of tea. This is why there will most likely always be a place for games like WoW, they most likely won't be the dominant form like they are now though. At the end of the day some players enjoy the 'theme park' style of play, going for rides that they can ride again. Others are looking for something else, something that they can have an effect on, and you know that won't always be the big dragon of doom like in WoW. As somtimes, the greatest evil that any world can face can be humanity itself, and THAT is something that players can play a part in, for good or ill.
bob,
Thanks for the input! If you haven't take a look at the Hero's Journey interview over at rpgvault. Hero's Journey Either this is hype or this MMO is one to keep an eye on...
Jonric: What kind of ideas do you have for making players feel like heroes who are central to the game's story?
David Whatley: In Hero's Journey, your character will have a story arc that is uniquely his or her own. To achieve this effect, we have built a sophisticated mechanism called the Journey System. It is responsible for dynamically creating story elements and plot points as you explore the world of Elanthia. Along the way the system introduces random plot elements drawn from things you do, encounters you've had, people you meet, what others do and major world events. It keeps things moving, keeps them interesting and makes your play experience unique to that character. As an added bonus, this greatly enhances replayability if you want to start over (maybe to try a different profession).
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
The LORE in Eve Online has absolutely no effect on the game or gamers whatsoever. Eve Online is a static world with gimmicky everchanging LORE to give an illusion of a dynamic world. Another gimmick to simulate a dynamic world in Eve Online is the player owned moon-oriters. They take a bajillion gold to create, a bajillion people in your guild to build, and have a bajillion hitpoints, yet they dont effect the ssytem you inhabit one iota.
Be wary of the Eve Online company posting bots.
Having played PS for 18 months I mostly agree that all though base ownership changes hands, that was about all that was dynamic. After a while it bugged me that all of the base types were exactly the same, and although components could be damaged, the main infrastructure of a base was not effected. After a long while the been-there-done-that feeling really sunk in and I quit.
-Hunt'n
Yeah and instead of, "CAPTURE THE FLAG," you "HACK THE BASE." I guess gaming companies thought of us customers as such shallow human beings, we would'nt notice the obvious quake plageurizing.
When I tried out AO for free and saw "NANOMAGE," I rolled my eyes so far I was afraid I'd never get them back out of my godamn skull.
There are a few projects going that involve dynamic worlds. I believe I've seen some of it being discussed on MMORPG.com's "Developers Corner" at times.
The dynamic world is what I always thought an MMORPG would be. I thought the point of going online with thousands of other players was to get rid of the dumb, pre-script-dictable npcs, and let players be the shopkeepers, questmasters, heroes, kings and villains.
It turned out that most mmorpg's were designed to provide for an endless string of player heroes, handing them npcs of all kinds, but none that could live up to the quality of a fully planned offline rpg. So most of the online roleplaying experience I've had has been less interesting and dynamic than my offline experiences.
The concept I always saw was player driven, perhaps with a few npcs to fill roles that would otherwise be unmanned. This is a challenge, but it is being worked on.
Adellion is my strong hope for the future, a game in development for some time now (and aiming to stay in development for so long that they actually have a complete game upon release!) that provides lore, a policy that requires in-character behaviour, premade societies/communities with law enforcement (in-character law), player driven leadership, economy and religion, and also warfare (although war is going to be such a huge drain on national wealth you won't see much of it), everything but the animals, a few shopkeepers and some hireling guards for the filthy rich will be players. (Almost - statement is inaccurate)
There will be quests there, but the most obvious quests will be tutorials by nature, giving you some basic equipment and teaching you some useful commands for everyday survival.
There was some mention of near-intelligent npcs reacting to their surroundings earlier. On Adellion forums, a fan asked some questions regarding being chased by wolves. The answer is: Humans won't be chased by wild animals often. I believe CAF was the one to add the following tip: Just don't kill all the deer in an area. (If you do, you will have starving wolves that chase and kill anything)
This kind of gameplay is currently left to the indies, they call it a niche market.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Looks interesting, and is certainly where they should go. You were asking for examples of dynamic worlds in action though, and since this is a game in development - we don't know if it'll work like they say it will. I certainly hope it does, as that combined with advanced A.I. and dynamic versions of things like the quest system will certainly lead to an exciting game experience I think.
I hope your not referring to me. I haven't played EVE Online and am certainly no bot for them. I'm not saying that EVE is the perfect example of a dynamic game, as there are many elements as you point out that are far from dynamic. The game however (not necessarily the gameworld) is driven and is fun for people (from what i can tell) because of player interaction, something that developers should keep in mind when designing the framework for their in-game economy in any dynamic game. EVE is not like all the other games out there, and so breaks the mold a little. Once we have dynamic games out that play well, then we will not need to reference EVE in this context.
Once the gameplay gets a bit of polish on it (as most of these games are still yet to even see the light of playtime) then I think it'll move away from niche. The potential is high, but the tech leap is great. Current mainstream has had some time to mature, with even EQ hitting 7 years old. WoW has shown what the old framework can do if polished well. I am struck with nervous anticipation about the future game that shows us what the dynamic framework can do if polished well, even if that is a fair time away.
At the moment, games like WoW and EQ2 give us the MMO part of MMORPG. In the future however, I forsee dynamic games giving us a bit more of the RPG, something that I certainly look forward to.
I'm sorry what game are you referring to- DnL (SoG)? I just went down the list of MMOs and don't see it.
Actually is there a good MMORPG that has an extensively dynamic world in existence? While I don't think companies can spit out static content at a rate to keep up with players, I don't know of a dynamic world MMO that offers the kind of action that I saw in Planetside or WoW.
I was playing with Neverwinter Nights today and got bored with it pretty quick. I realize the social aspects of a MMO keep my interest level higher.
-Hunt'n
DnL = Dark and Light which is yet to be released http://www.darkandlight.net
SoG = Settlers of Ganareth prequel to DnL out now as a free cut down demo with few features.
DnL has been developed as a Dynamic World, which is actually quite huge in size, with actual weather patterns/seasons, wind/wave dynamics and mob roaming/migrating behavior. (we will see if this all works together after release - 27th April 06).
Many people playing SoG atm are confused with the mob spawns, as they expect static sequencial level spawning with easy to find perminent camping spots, but as you know in a dynamic World this rarely happens, so many players are put off... static Worlds are just easier to play.
The tech leap is great? I suppose that is true, in a way. To provide automatically generated content and intelligent world development based on scripts and programming would be very advanced. But if players could be trusted to play the game rather than the exploits and loopholes, they could have been put in charge of the whole everything long time ago and it would have been the end of dull and predictable scripts.
So... We're gonna be walking around with big sticks and whacking youngsters (and some older ones) over their heads until they learn discipline and good fun!
The ultimate dynamic setting would leave room for only a few great individuals, or the setting would go racing in all kinds of directions at once. And there are enough of those who play for the power only, aren't there? I absolutely feel that this is the best kind of mmorpg, and I'd be well able to enjoy a role where I didn't constantly progress towards greatness - and there are many like us.
But I suppose that at least, will remain a niche product for some time yet. Because what does it help that heroes are special, if I can't be a hero?!?!
Of course - you can. It just doesn't happen easily or assuredly. It takes time, effort and courage. You compete primarily against other players, and most progress will be in cooperation with and/or at the expense of other players. Who have the same tools in their hands that you have. Who may bring you down for their own benefit. There is the element of actual challenge, risk, purpose and probably a good bit of failure to counterpoint the successes.
It'll be a niche market until people figure out what's good for them.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Static is going to remain the mainstay for quite some time because it is very, very difficult to create dynamic content after the decision has been made to create a static environment.
I do believe a dynamic environment is feasible, but it would have to dictate the environment rather than exist within the environment. The current project I'm working on is dynamic, and just dealing with the problems of content that is generated by interaction of players has proven to be a very interesting mind bender on its own. I mean, if you have a final vision for where the game should be heading, it's hard to allow player interaction to be the driving force, because it sets up a bit of anarchy in the playing dynamic. So, I came to somewhat of a solution (just one of many) that can address this, and that's to either have an ultimate end process where players will unlock it (the easier process) so that it's already built into the world environment, or to allow an either/or circumstance environment where the choices of the multitude of players allows them to dictate the future development of the world itself. This would then require multiple choices for the world itself, meaning cross programming of the environment but it would definitely open up the world for the actions of the players themselves.
Granted, this type of dynamic world is designed for massive involvement, not just one player making a choice to change the course of future history.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
I like a combination of static and dynamic and would very much like to see this implemented again in some MMORPG.
The best example I can think of as a static-dynamic model was the old, old Asheron's Call were there were many static quests, and tons of dungeons, and a HUGE seamless world to explore -- but also included monthly (approximately) story-arc advancement with occasional one-time-only quests and occasional MASSIVE changes to the gameworld which tended to galvanize the players into a fighting force of epic proportions.
(OMFG! Where the frak did Arwic go?! All that is here is a fraking big smoking ugly crater and ... "Eeeeeahhhhh!" Oh whoa, somebody logged on their hugely overburdened mule high above the new ground level where a building used to be and ... SPLAT! *dead*")
(Or: *logs on* OMFG! The seas have all turned blood-red! We are all gonna DIE!!!")
(Or: *runs a short distance outside a town, comes screaming back* OMFG! I just got jumped by about 15 Shadows hidden in the trees outside town and my corpse is right near them! Help, help, help, help!"
If you missed the first 18-month story-arc of Asheron's Call called "The Shadow Wars," this was CLASSIC stuff which may never again be repeated (immense effort to churn out these monthly updates). The only kudos I give Turbine is for this wonderfully compelling storyline and the huge excitment it brought into our online lives -- you really felt you were directly involved some some great, ongoing story.
Since AC2 was a bust (they should've cloned AC1 with state-of-the-art graphics instead), believe it or not I still forlornly hope someday Turbine will do, "Asheron's Call: The Prequel (the events leading up to Asheron's "call" which opened portals to other worlds pulling in people -- the players -- to assist Dereth in its time of need)." And this time GET IT RIGHT.
(BTW, AC had probably one of the very best "intro" movies (it was more than just a trailer) ever made for any online game -- except probably WoW's fantastic effort (even if you don't like WoW).
If some online games starting doing "story-arcs" with mystery, danger and excitment, it would please me very much.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Does dynamic have to involve changing the world? What about just small changes, in specific areas?
I'd like to see a world where spawns move around and react in a natural seeming fashion to what they run into. Non-intelligent creatures might build dens or move into caves, set up hunting territories. Intelligent things might roam around looking for a place to start building a village, gather together, send out scouts, go on raids. Basically giving them an ant/bee like AI. When something is wiped out, it doesn't just respawn. New spawns and a constant movement and gathering of NPCs would simulate a more natural seeming world.
Once upon a time....