Originally posted by dekron ok obviously you haven't played SWG. Oh, you're SO right, I've OBVIOUSLY never played SWG.. that's why, between my girlfriend and myself, we have five SWG accounts. That's why I'm master architect on two different servers, have our own player city on two different servers, several times over master artisan, master doctor, she has master tailor once or twice over, etc. etc. etc. So where in all that is it OBVIOUS that we've never played SWG with the five accounts we have between us? That game failed from day one and is just now scraping by. They hardly get any new subscriptions that stay more than the free trial. SWG can be bought now for 19.99 in walmart....you know when a game's price goes down from 50.00 to 20.00 in less than a year it has problems. Yes, you've established with your initial line of ignorance ("You've obviously never played") that you're an expert. Let's also not forget FFIX, has failed to be a good game in the US. I don't care about anime-type crap. *Edited out the rest of the nonsense*
If this board has an ignore feature, you'll be added momentarily.
my point made, it is a complete failure if you have master architech on two servers, two player cities, and all the other crap you boast which you seem to think is a proud acheivment. As for you and your girlfriend having five accounts together, I think I will just keep my comments to myself. Sounds like your life is rather boring and pathetic if you have enough time to manage five accounts. I can picture it now
"Hey honey whatcha wanna do tonight"
"Why let's play SWG like we always do!"
"Ohh baby you know just how to turn me on!"
And as my "ignorant" comment that you haven't played before, forgive me and let me rephrase....If you have played long enough to have as much as you do on multiple servers and still haven't seen the sheer fact that SWG is going downhill (and yes you can very much expect SWG to see the same fate that Rubies of Eventide did, SWG will eventually just close its doors and shutdown the servers)You have a major hole in the logical part of your brain.
-------------------------------------------- If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"
*Rathma gives dekron props* same everyone thinks their on top of the world when they own 5 houses and everything. But it's not the person, it's that the game is very easy.
Originally posted by dekron If you have played long enough to have as much as you do on multiple servers and still haven't seen the sheer fact that SWG is going downhill (and yes you can very much expect SWG to see the same fate that Rubies of Eventide did, SWG will eventually just close its doors and shutdown the servers)You have a major hole in the logical part of your brain.
You are smoking a whole ton of crack to believe this.
Stop substituting your own personal disppointment for some kind of evidence as to the "failure" of the product and its supposed demise. SW:G will be here in 12 months...in 36 months...probably even in 60 months.
By the way, idiotic personal attacks like this:
As for you and your girlfriend having five accounts together, I think I will just keep my comments to myself. Sounds like your life is rather boring and pathetic if you have enough time to manage five accounts. I can picture it now "Hey honey whatcha wanna do tonight" "Why let's play SWG like we always do!" "Ohh baby you know just how to turn me on!"
don't make you more right. They just make you look like more of an idiot. Grow up, kid...learn that all the judgements you make of everyone else and their lack of a life reflect very clearly on you.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Originally posted by Kunou Hell, I WISH my fiancee would play mmogs with me, lucky man imo.
She's more into Star Wars than I am. Personally, I rank it as about #3 on my preferred sci-fi viewing/playing/whatever. (although with what I keep reading about its decline, #2 is falling rapidly into a tie with #3.. fortunately, Bab-5 will remain a solid #1. Wish there was a B5-based MMO)
Maybe I should ask her to post on here what would get some women willing to play the games with their sig. others.. heh.
mmorpg will never make mainstream until they can either find a way around the monthly fee, or find better ways to pay it...
Many people shy away from mmorpgs because of the monthly fee, or because they need to use a CC.
Once they get told why, quite a few say "okay, thats reasonable" but most dont even both asking or looking further into it.
Once that hurdle is overcome I think that mmorpgs will be able to break into the mainstream, ofcourse niche games will still be made, theat arent meant to be mass appeal to everyone except the hardcore gamers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
As far as the term "mainstream" is being used, can anyone say MEO (Middle Earth Online) or MxO (the Matrix Online), but who knows, both of these games with probably end up like SWG and FFIX, and hell while I'm at it probably EVERY OTHER MMORPG. Through out this whole post, I've yet to see some one go "Such and such game rocks so much! It blows every other MMO before it out of the water".
In my humble opinion, a very good question was asked at the begining of this post (one that I, myself, cant answer at the moment), unless I am wrong and it needs to be asked anyway; "What is the problem with nearly all MMORPG's today?" and more importantly "How can the problem be fixed?". Which are two VERY hard questions to answer becaue everybody has different answers. Though I'm pretty sure arguing (sp?) what terms like "failed" and "mainstream" mean, as well as attacking each other personally is going to get nothing acomplished. Isn't there a "Spam" board for that? I'm not trying to get on anybody's ass or anything, but I just hate to see a good question get sideswiped by, well, bullshit. More importantly I want to see MMORPG's become a funner, more enjoyable, longer experience.
Anyway what do I konw, just my two cents
(Oh and Negative, I thought the "Fight in the park with swords, can I use your cat as a familiar" comment was HILARIOUS!!! but excuss me now, while I go cut my wrists in the bathroom because you made me feal like a total loser that no body will like if they find out I play MMORPG's, LOL, I feel like a gay person in the closet now LOL) Thanks! heh
Originally posted by dekron If you have played long enough to have as much as you do on multiple servers and still haven't seen the sheer fact that SWG is going downhill (and yes you can very much expect SWG to see the same fate that Rubies of Eventide did, SWG will eventually just close its doors and shutdown the servers)You have a major hole in the logical part of your brain.
You are smoking a whole ton of crack to believe this.
Stop substituting your own personal disppointment for some kind of evidence as to the "failure" of the product and its supposed demise. SW:G will be here in 12 months...in 36 months...probably even in 60 months.
I find it humourous that you think I am basing this on my opinion. Read the recent reviews by many gaming magazines, not only on their views of the game itself...but by the number of subscribers SWG has lost since launch. 200,000 day one. They only have retained about 60% of that number. Their player base is not increasing do to horrid reviews and eventually most will more than likely tire from the game. The content and bugs are horrible and the constant nerfing of classes (especially creature handler and bounty hunter) have made this a horrible excuse for a game. And another thing on the content. From the beginning they said monthly updates to the story...what a LAUGH! They launched in July if I can remember and they are only on ACT II. They have already went through staffing changes and this is slowing the progreess of the game even more.
-------------------------------------------- If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"
A huge reason mmos fail is simply put the market. The mmorpg market is controlled by a few huge companies. These companies will do any thing to keep their strangle hold on the market. I am not kiding ive been gm o equive in 2 games annd have talked to developers of many games. In one game a guy comes in and start cussing and carrying on about hwo bad the game was then suggest every one go sign up for so and so beta. I was gm at the time so i banned him for cussing and spamming. Wehn i looked at his ip and resolved it it was one of the username.domainname.coms like you typically see used for remote connections shells etc. It was for the companies whos game he was spaming about. The company was one of the big ones who have a large to huge amount of control over the market.
Ive heard devs talk about these thigns in many games and rumors of it happening in yet more mmos. Industrail sabotage (sp?) and spying do happen in this market. And will always happen. In gneral cussing and recruiting like this wont do much damage to a given game but it does do a little and when successful it starts a snowball effect. Youll get people who will leave and go to game x come back tell their friends how great it is and their friends then leave etc.
What funny to see is when it does work for a little while people leave play the other game for a couple days and think omg this is a great game. Often the games do look great on the surface but when yu dig deaper or have a problem the company that is working on the game ignores you. So you get this mass exodous then max influx back in to the game where the spammer visited. Whats bad is some times when some one is suckered in to leaving to go to anohter game and turns in to a pit bull for that game comes back and starts spamming him self and gets banned. Ive seen this hppen a few times. The person finds out the game he was spamming about sucks and now the game he started in hes banned from and cant go back so now hes stuck with out a game.
When you see some oen spaming about another game in a games world wide chat they are low lvl chances are they have not even truely looked at the game and are there just to try and damage the game in some way. Also theres a fair chance they are working for the company whos game they are spamming about.
I say, much of mmorpgs "failed". Yep i know for example Everquest 2 is making 12 000 000 $ for month, but think that world of warcraft doesent got good graphics as in EQ2, but it is funny really.
Thats why it makes 50 000 000$ in month, ill say that MMORPGs would now get them funnier, the graphics arent the frist thing what to think. Because the customer allways wants to spend good times ingame. But the graphics cant be junkie.
Thats my word.
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Lol
You know, I found game engine what was named "Bug World 3d"
The problem is that with the impending paradigm shift MMOGs are about to experience, any future predictions of the success of proposed MMOGs are measured on metrics that are about to expire. Since there are so many MMOGs on the market in that old paradigm, only the most wild forecasted profits are going to get funding from anyone.
How successful did corporations think EQ1 was going to be before it was released? Not very... at least no where near as successful as it eventually became. I'd imagine that if things didn't happen just right for Verant, they very likely could have suffered the same fate as Wish or Mythica.
I bet something is going to surprise us in the next year or so...
Some of you are truly amazing. You slam on someone calling them ignorant for making a comment about a game, then turn right around and make an equally ignorant comment about a game you have not played either.
First of all, no true MMORPG has failed in the sense of closing up shop after GOLD release. Many have not lived up to the "Vocal" majorities expectations, however all of them are still out, still being played, Even Anarchy Online is still out and that one was predicted to fail utterly, it did not.
To the comment on FFXI failing, hmm funny last I checked they had a larger player base then nearly every single american based mmorpg with possible exception being to wow, and EQ. Looks like the game is doing pretty good to me. As to the Anime crap comment, uhh its not anime, and it has better looking charcter models then wow and EQ2, next time play the game before making comments like that.
EQ2, not failing..far from it. Overhyped yes, but there is a Very large player base that actively play.
Wow, not failing either..Overhyped definitally, but as this game appeals more to your casual gamer crowd, I expect to see it do just fine. Its not my taste though too easy to level get bored too quickly.
Apply this to any other mmorpg out there, none have failed, and none will with rare exception. They will simply appeal to a different crowd. No MMORPG will Ever please Everyone.
Originally posted by Regal_TR , hardcore gamers are the lifeline, not the people who log in for 5-10 hours a week.
I beg to differ. The vast majority of players are casual gamers. Casual gamers usually have a life, ya know jobs,family, Real Live friends. Casual gamers put just as much money into the game as the hardcore, but not the time. For the casual gamer their gametime is usually a break from the every day grind.
So gaming companies want to appeal to them why? Because you make your game based on the hardcore gamer, the causal gamer is never going to experince all the cool things of higher levels. In all likelyhood the casual will bore and wonder off to a new game.
Hardcore gamers push the game, yes. But it is the casual gamer that gives the larger percentage of the income for these games. And what is the most imortant thing to the gaming companies? The players? Not likely it is the money. These games will not be made for the minority of hardcores for sheer pleasure, they will be made for causal gamers that help pay the bills.
I think Regal is correct. It's true that casual people pay just as much money, but they are not the ones who keep the games flourishing. The sense of an active community, the ability to get groups, spoilers, large functional guilds to help you advance - all these things and more result from the efforts of the hardcore people. Remove the hardcore people and there isn't going to be any functioning community in a game. Even casual players want to enjoy what the games have to offer, and they generally can't do it without the hardcore people. If you want to find groups in a game, one hardcore person can be available for others to group with as much as ten casual people. Even the casual people don't want to log into empty space and that's what they would find to a large degree without the hardcore people. Everyone likes to have an active, bustling game, and you can't have one without the hardcore people.
The companies are making a huge mistake by tailoring games more and more to the casual people because they can't keep the hardcore people entertained this way. As a result you just see an inreasing number of threads of people complaining that they got bored with this, that, or the other game in two months, or that the games are too easy and don't provide any sense of challenge or excitement.
EQ has succeeded so well for so long because it held onto its hardcore people so long. The primary reason they started leaving in droves even prior to EQ2 and WOW is because they've dumbed the game down to the point that it doesn't hold the interest of the hardcore players anymore. Nevertheless, it will still hold large numbers for a long time - just like UO did - because of its diehards ... not because of people who log in a couple hours now and then. Note that SOE saw what worked long-term in UO and that's precisely what they've been doing ... just giving their diehards more and more to do. But again, you remove the 10 most hardcore people who form the nucleus of the big guild I left behind in EQ and the casual members will poof overnight because their community will be gone.
You don't even need new ideas to keep players. Life isn't new and we still like it. What you need is a good solid game that gives people a lot to do and keeps it coming. Companies can't depend on the people who always want something new anyway ... no matter what they're given they get bored and go from one game to another.
Well, I love how World of Warcraft "hides" the grinding through quests.
WoW feels like there isn't any grind at all.
You'll do a quest that says: "Collect 10 Bear Hides for me", thing is, the Bear Hide you need will drop only 1 out of 3 bears you kill. So you end up killing over 30 bears, get 10 hide, go back to the NPC, collect your reward.
While it may seem anoying, it is not! It's great! I hate grinding, I hate having to chose random creatures, kill hundreds of them, then level.
What I prefer in WoW is doing less than 5 quests, killing a couple hundred creatures, get a great reward or cash, then level!
See the difference with WoW compared to other MMORPGs?
I've reached Level 36 as a Hunter just by doing quests. Never have I just went into the wilderness with mobs, kill the mobs non-stop just to gain experience. What sucks about grinding is that it's repetitive and only has 1 goal... to give you XP to reach your next level!
WoW, even if you are kinda "grinding" just to obtain 10 bear hides that don't drop after every kill, once you are done with the quest, you'll know you have done lots of great XP, you'll know there's even more XP to be gained after talking back to the NPC, you'll know there's a sweet reward for what you have done, then you go on to the next quest and kill different creatures or NPCs for more XP, money and reward! You never get bored because you keep alternating.
Please name me an RPG with as many fun quests as WoW! I'd like to know. All I know is that EQ2, SWG, CoH and DaoC are not like this.
I think a big problem with companies is that they sometimes fail to see that this genre is supposed to be fun because it is still a game. They might brush off mechanical squirrels and virtual fireworks as fluff and not necessary. Instead of allowing a player to mass slay packs of monsters while soloing, they look at balance issues and decide that it's not realistic for a player to slaughter 10 creatures his/her same level or relatively lower. Instead, the player should only be able to take 1 creature his/her own level at a time (Horizons) without dying. And while we're at it, let's throw away all excitement of combat and not even discuss permanent death; and heck, programming severable limbs is too hard or creates too many issues with lag so let's forget that idea and go with every cookie-cutter game out there.
________________________________ The meaning of your life is not found in words but in your actions.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by Johnark Well, I love how World of Warcraft "hides" the grinding through quests. WoW feels like there isn't any grind at all. You'll do a quest that says: "Collect 10 Bear Hides for me", thing is, the Bear Hide you need will drop only 1 out of 3 bears you kill. So you end up killing over 30 bears, get 10 hide, go back to the NPC, collect your reward. While it may seem anoying, it is not! It's great! I hate grinding, I hate having to chose random creatures, kill hundreds of them, then level. What I prefer in WoW is doing less than 5 quests, killing a couple hundred creatures, get a great reward or cash, then level! See the difference with WoW compared to other MMORPGs? I've reached Level 36 as a Hunter just by doing quests. Never have I just went into the wilderness with mobs, kill the mobs non-stop just to gain experience. What sucks about grinding is that it's repetitive and only has 1 goal... to give you XP to reach your next level! WoW, even if you are kinda "grinding" just to obtain 10 bear hides that don't drop after every kill, once you are done with the quest, you'll know you have done lots of great XP, you'll know there's even more XP to be gained after talking back to the NPC, you'll know there's a sweet reward for what you have done, then you go on to the next quest and kill different creatures or NPCs for more XP, money and reward! You never get bored because you keep alternating. Please name me an RPG with as many fun quests as WoW! I'd like to know. All I know is that EQ2, SWG, CoH and DaoC are not like this.
Then you know absolutly nothing about EQ2.
My quest journal in EQ2 is full all the time, and 99% of the time The area I am leveling in, is also completing not one but usually multiple quests, some I will return to town to complete, some that are instant reward and some that are ongoing and progressive pushing me to find creatures in different areas of the zone or world. If your in an area in EQ and are just level grinding with no quests, then your screwing up and doing it the hard way, as the quests yield tons of exp, coin and usable armor/weapon upgrades. I can easily say 60%+ of my experience in any given level came from quests. Right now I am 37 and still not seeing any signs of the quests slowing down, I have more quests then I honestly know what to do with and every single one of them have me fighting very tough creatures which yield a ton of exp by themselves not to mention good drops, stack the quest reward and exp on top of that and I fail to see how anyone could just Level grind in this game. I will say it bluntly, If you are level grinding in EQ2 with no quests, you are a complete idiot, and yea your gonna hate the game. From my experience with wow, its no different. Do the quests and your gear and levels come easy, dont and you are killing yourself.
Good examples of what to expect from a Quest in EQ exp only. on the average.
Grey quests, half a percent not much, but this quest is far below your level and trivial.
Green quests, 1 percent, see above.
Blue quests, 1-2 percent this is an easily soloable quest, it will yield marginal exp/items and coin.
White quests 3-4 percent, Soloable but challenging. this quest will require you to think before crashing into the area and trying to kill em all.
Yellow quests, 5-8 percent. Plan on grouping this is an difficult task that would be very difficult to solo. Some of these can be done solo with alot of thought and planning.
Red quests, 12% + Soloing these is outright out of the question with few exceptions, Risk is extremely high, Reward is as well.
Note the above is just the Exp recieved off the quest reward its self. This does not take into account the exp you would get killing the mobs, loot, or coin.
Originally posted by jimothypetro You know this thread was bumped from 12 months ago..
ROFL, didn't notice.
And Johnark, lol, come on ... it's great you are enjoying your game, but this whole bear hide business practically has me falling out of my chair. THIS is something you feel is worthy of note?? If I didn't know from your other posts that you've played other games I would have to ask if you've ever played any mmorpg before LOL, dang, that example is precisely a textbook example of braindead activity that people complain about. Damn, you made my morning, lol. And for the record, I don't mind collecting bear hides either ... but then I am an idiot grinder And apparently so are you ... you just don't know it yet =p
LOL, it was bumped. Almost makes posting pointless, except the issue still stands a year later!
Anyway, EQ2 is nothing like what has been described here. After level 20, you can kiss decent quest experience good bye! The formula is grouped grind, just like the original EQ. Except with this one there is an illusion of purpose because you may just happen to have a meaningless quest to kill those mobs you are grinding on. It just isn't fun anymore.
Oh the bear thing had me cracking up (thank you for the great laugh)
eq 2 had me killing 500 + knolls still didn't finish the needed quest items and spirit shard
and though not so eleocantly put aeric67, did state my feelings about eq 2 post 20 as well
i understand a game needing a tutorial but having a game (to me so fundementaly change in how i perceive it after a certain point post 20) seems to me to be more mechancis then anything else.
as far as games failing na, just not holding on to ole die hards like they use to ,and when folks stop having fun they leave (plain and simple)
Originally posted by aeric67 LOL, it was bumped. Almost makes posting pointless, except the issue still stands a year later! Anyway, EQ2 is nothing like what has been described here. After level 20, you can kiss decent quest experience good bye! The formula is grouped grind, just like the original EQ. Except with this one there is an illusion of purpose because you may just happen to have a meaningless quest to kill those mobs you are grinding on. It just isn't fun anymore.
So what exactly do you consider meaningful? Personally to get a 12% bump from one quest while killing the same things that give me excellent grind exp and satisfy the requirement for a couple of other quests at the same time is more then meaningful experience, especially when it is coupled with decent coin or a nice item. But I suppose that is just me, and since my wife plays Wow and I see the exact same time of reward system, I fail to see the Difference in either game outside Wow's experience curve being smaller.
Zoey, I assume you are referring to the betrayal quest..Did you honestly expect the betrayal quest to be anything other then a flat out waste of time? I did the quest going from Qeynos to freeport..and yep I killed 500 grey orcs to finish it, It was a pure pain in the ass. however I would hope your not judging the quest system by a lvl 14 quest that was by design suppossed to be a huge time sink to make players realize that Switching city allegiance was not a trivial matter.
Quest rewards do not diminish 20+ if you are steadily getting good quests, if anything they get better. Especially if you collect all the Lore and Legend quests, Collection quests yield a ton of exp and nice items, and Heritiage quests like the Glowing black stone, Legendary journeyman boots, Serrated Bone dirk, Flowing black silk sash yeild not only insanly nice items, but Crazy amounts of experience. Not all the quests are going to be worth while, there are thousands of quests, yea some of are going to be utter crap. Try looking for ones that are not blue, grey or green, trying sticking to red and yellow you will find the exp rewards are much larger.
Oh and Dare I mention Writ quests..talk about worthwhile.
The reason they fail is that these small companies don't realize much hard work has to go into a MMORPG. You need a really large staff to make one of these games.
Thats why WOW , EQ, FFXI, Stars wars are all successful. They are all made by large companies with a large staff.
when I started reading this thread from the begining I was wondering why Negative71 said
quote:
the only major MMOG I know of that has "failed" in the last 12 months is Motor City Online.
Then looked at the date 01/04
Loved the prediction that SWG would fall in 12 months. Just goes to show, predictions are worthless. They didn't even a mention of "Earth and Beyond" being shut down.
Right now, this whole thread is falling into a "My MMO is better then your MMO." Got to love these old posts.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Comments
my point made, it is a complete failure if you have master architech on two servers, two player cities, and all the other crap you boast which you seem to think is a proud acheivment. As for you and your girlfriend having five accounts together, I think I will just keep my comments to myself. Sounds like your life is rather boring and pathetic if you have enough time to manage five accounts. I can picture it now
"Hey honey whatcha wanna do tonight"
"Why let's play SWG like we always do!"
"Ohh baby you know just how to turn me on!"
And as my "ignorant" comment that you haven't played before, forgive me and let me rephrase....If you have played long enough to have as much as you do on multiple servers and still haven't seen the sheer fact that SWG is going downhill (and yes you can very much expect SWG to see the same fate that Rubies of Eventide did, SWG will eventually just close its doors and shutdown the servers)You have a major hole in the logical part of your brain.
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If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"
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-- Death to picture-sigs. --
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Ahhh yes, I almost forgot.. thanks for reminding me, rathma:
LET THE JEALOUS BICKERING BEGIN!
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-- Death to picture-sigs. --
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You are smoking a whole ton of crack to believe this.
Stop substituting your own personal disppointment for some kind of evidence as to the "failure" of the product and its supposed demise. SW:G will be here in 12 months...in 36 months...probably even in 60 months.
By the way, idiotic personal attacks like this:
don't make you more right. They just make you look like more of an idiot. Grow up, kid...learn that all the judgements you make of everyone else and their lack of a life reflect very clearly on you.
Hell, I WISH my fiancee would play mmogs with me, lucky man imo.
Kunou
GM - Desolation
www.desolation-guild.org/genforum
Soc: 66% Exp: 66% Ach: 60% Kill: 6%
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
She's more into Star Wars than I am. Personally, I rank it as about #3 on my preferred sci-fi viewing/playing/whatever. (although with what I keep reading about its decline, #2 is falling rapidly into a tie with #3.. fortunately, Bab-5 will remain a solid #1. Wish there was a B5-based MMO)
Maybe I should ask her to post on here what would get some women willing to play the games with their sig. others.. heh.
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-- Death to picture-sigs. --
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mmorpg will never make mainstream until they can either find a way around the monthly fee, or find better ways to pay it...
Many people shy away from mmorpgs because of the monthly fee, or because they need to use a CC.
Once they get told why, quite a few say "okay, thats reasonable" but most dont even both asking or looking further into it.
Once that hurdle is overcome I think that mmorpgs will be able to break into the mainstream, ofcourse niche games will still be made, theat arent meant to be mass appeal to everyone except the hardcore gamers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
As far as the term "mainstream" is being used, can anyone say MEO (Middle Earth Online) or MxO (the Matrix Online), but who knows, both of these games with probably end up like SWG and FFIX, and hell while I'm at it probably EVERY OTHER MMORPG. Through out this whole post, I've yet to see some one go "Such and such game rocks so much! It blows every other MMO before it out of the water".
In my humble opinion, a very good question was asked at the begining of this post (one that I, myself, cant answer at the moment), unless I am wrong and it needs to be asked anyway; "What is the problem with nearly all MMORPG's today?" and more importantly "How can the problem be fixed?". Which are two VERY hard questions to answer becaue everybody has different answers. Though I'm pretty sure arguing (sp?) what terms like "failed" and "mainstream" mean, as well as attacking each other personally is going to get nothing acomplished. Isn't there a "Spam" board for that? I'm not trying to get on anybody's ass or anything, but I just hate to see a good question get sideswiped by, well, bullshit. More importantly I want to see MMORPG's become a funner, more enjoyable, longer experience.
Anyway what do I konw, just my two cents
(Oh and Negative, I thought the "Fight in the park with swords, can I use your cat as a familiar" comment was HILARIOUS!!! but excuss me now, while I go cut my wrists in the bathroom because you made me feal like a total loser that no body will like if they find out I play MMORPG's, LOL, I feel like a gay person in the closet now LOL)
Thanks! heh
You are smoking a whole ton of crack to believe this.
Stop substituting your own personal disppointment for some kind of evidence as to the "failure" of the product and its supposed demise. SW:G will be here in 12 months...in 36 months...probably even in 60 months.
I find it humourous that you think I am basing this on my opinion. Read the recent reviews by many gaming magazines, not only on their views of the game itself...but by the number of subscribers SWG has lost since launch. 200,000 day one. They only have retained about 60% of that number. Their player base is not increasing do to horrid reviews and eventually most will more than likely tire from the game. The content and bugs are horrible and the constant nerfing of classes (especially creature handler and bounty hunter) have made this a horrible excuse for a game. And another thing on the content. From the beginning they said monthly updates to the story...what a LAUGH! They launched in July if I can remember and they are only on ACT II. They have already went through staffing changes and this is slowing the progreess of the game even more.
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If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"
A huge reason mmos fail is simply put the market. The mmorpg market is controlled by a few huge companies. These companies will do any thing to keep their strangle hold on the market. I am not kiding ive been gm o equive in 2 games annd have talked to developers of many games. In one game a guy comes in and start cussing and carrying on about hwo bad the game was then suggest every one go sign up for so and so beta. I was gm at the time so i banned him for cussing and spamming. Wehn i looked at his ip and resolved it it was one of the username.domainname.coms like you typically see used for remote connections shells etc. It was for the companies whos game he was spaming about. The company was one of the big ones who have a large to huge amount of control over the market.
Ive heard devs talk about these thigns in many games and rumors of it happening in yet more mmos. Industrail sabotage (sp?) and spying do happen in this market. And will always happen. In gneral cussing and recruiting like this wont do much damage to a given game but it does do a little and when successful it starts a snowball effect. Youll get people who will leave and go to game x come back tell their friends how great it is and their friends then leave etc.
What funny to see is when it does work for a little while people leave play the other game for a couple days and think omg this is a great game. Often the games do look great on the surface but when yu dig deaper or have a problem the company that is working on the game ignores you. So you get this mass exodous then max influx back in to the game where the spammer visited. Whats bad is some times when some one is suckered in to leaving to go to anohter game and turns in to a pit bull for that game comes back and starts spamming him self and gets banned. Ive seen this hppen a few times. The person finds out the game he was spamming about sucks and now the game he started in hes banned from and cant go back so now hes stuck with out a game.
When you see some oen spaming about another game in a games world wide chat they are low lvl chances are they have not even truely looked at the game and are there just to try and damage the game in some way. Also theres a fair chance they are working for the company whos game they are spamming about.
Ok.
I say, much of mmorpgs "failed". Yep i know for example Everquest 2 is making 12 000 000 $ for month, but think that world of warcraft doesent got good graphics as in EQ2, but it is funny really.
Thats why it makes 50 000 000$ in month, ill say that MMORPGs would now get them funnier, the graphics arent the frist thing what to think. Because the customer allways wants to spend good times ingame. But the graphics cant be junkie.
Thats my word.
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Lol
You know, I found game engine what was named "Bug World 3d"
The problem is that with the impending paradigm shift MMOGs are about to experience, any future predictions of the success of proposed MMOGs are measured on metrics that are about to expire. Since there are so many MMOGs on the market in that old paradigm, only the most wild forecasted profits are going to get funding from anyone.
How successful did corporations think EQ1 was going to be before it was released? Not very... at least no where near as successful as it eventually became. I'd imagine that if things didn't happen just right for Verant, they very likely could have suffered the same fate as Wish or Mythica.
I bet something is going to surprise us in the next year or so...
Some of you are truly amazing. You slam on someone calling them ignorant for making a comment about a game, then turn right around and make an equally ignorant comment about a game you have not played either.
First of all, no true MMORPG has failed in the sense of closing up shop after GOLD release. Many have not lived up to the "Vocal" majorities expectations, however all of them are still out, still being played, Even Anarchy Online is still out and that one was predicted to fail utterly, it did not.
To the comment on FFXI failing, hmm funny last I checked they had a larger player base then nearly every single american based mmorpg with possible exception being to wow, and EQ. Looks like the game is doing pretty good to me. As to the Anime crap comment, uhh its not anime, and it has better looking charcter models then wow and EQ2, next time play the game before making comments like that.
EQ2, not failing..far from it. Overhyped yes, but there is a Very large player base that actively play.
Wow, not failing either..Overhyped definitally, but as this game appeals more to your casual gamer crowd, I expect to see it do just fine. Its not my taste though too easy to level get bored too quickly.
Apply this to any other mmorpg out there, none have failed, and none will with rare exception. They will simply appeal to a different crowd. No MMORPG will Ever please Everyone.
I beg to differ. The vast majority of players are casual gamers. Casual gamers usually have a life, ya know jobs,family, Real Live friends. Casual gamers put just as much money into the game as the hardcore, but not the time. For the casual gamer their gametime is usually a break from the every day grind.
So gaming companies want to appeal to them why? Because you make your game based on the hardcore gamer, the causal gamer is never going to experince all the cool things of higher levels. In all likelyhood the casual will bore and wonder off to a new game.
Hardcore gamers push the game, yes. But it is the casual gamer that gives the larger percentage of the income for these games. And what is the most imortant thing to the gaming companies? The players? Not likely it is the money. These games will not be made for the minority of hardcores for sheer pleasure, they will be made for causal gamers that help pay the bills.
I think Regal is correct. It's true that casual people pay just as much money, but they are not the ones who keep the games flourishing. The sense of an active community, the ability to get groups, spoilers, large functional guilds to help you advance - all these things and more result from the efforts of the hardcore people. Remove the hardcore people and there isn't going to be any functioning community in a game. Even casual players want to enjoy what the games have to offer, and they generally can't do it without the hardcore people. If you want to find groups in a game, one hardcore person can be available for others to group with as much as ten casual people. Even the casual people don't want to log into empty space and that's what they would find to a large degree without the hardcore people. Everyone likes to have an active, bustling game, and you can't have one without the hardcore people.
The companies are making a huge mistake by tailoring games more and more to the casual people because they can't keep the hardcore people entertained this way. As a result you just see an inreasing number of threads of people complaining that they got bored with this, that, or the other game in two months, or that the games are too easy and don't provide any sense of challenge or excitement.
EQ has succeeded so well for so long because it held onto its hardcore people so long. The primary reason they started leaving in droves even prior to EQ2 and WOW is because they've dumbed the game down to the point that it doesn't hold the interest of the hardcore players anymore. Nevertheless, it will still hold large numbers for a long time - just like UO did - because of its diehards ... not because of people who log in a couple hours now and then. Note that SOE saw what worked long-term in UO and that's precisely what they've been doing ... just giving their diehards more and more to do. But again, you remove the 10 most hardcore people who form the nucleus of the big guild I left behind in EQ and the casual members will poof overnight because their community will be gone.
You don't even need new ideas to keep players. Life isn't new and we still like it. What you need is a good solid game that gives people a lot to do and keeps it coming. Companies can't depend on the people who always want something new anyway ... no matter what they're given they get bored and go from one game to another.
Well, I love how World of Warcraft "hides" the grinding through quests.
WoW feels like there isn't any grind at all.
You'll do a quest that says: "Collect 10 Bear Hides for me", thing is, the Bear Hide you need will drop only 1 out of 3 bears you kill. So you end up killing over 30 bears, get 10 hide, go back to the NPC, collect your reward.
While it may seem anoying, it is not! It's great! I hate grinding, I hate having to chose random creatures, kill hundreds of them, then level.
What I prefer in WoW is doing less than 5 quests, killing a couple hundred creatures, get a great reward or cash, then level!
See the difference with WoW compared to other MMORPGs?
I've reached Level 36 as a Hunter just by doing quests. Never have I just went into the wilderness with mobs, kill the mobs non-stop just to gain experience. What sucks about grinding is that it's repetitive and only has 1 goal... to give you XP to reach your next level!
WoW, even if you are kinda "grinding" just to obtain 10 bear hides that don't drop after every kill, once you are done with the quest, you'll know you have done lots of great XP, you'll know there's even more XP to be gained after talking back to the NPC, you'll know there's a sweet reward for what you have done, then you go on to the next quest and kill different creatures or NPCs for more XP, money and reward! You never get bored because you keep alternating.
Please name me an RPG with as many fun quests as WoW! I'd like to know. All I know is that EQ2, SWG, CoH and DaoC are not like this.
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Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
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"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Then you know absolutly nothing about EQ2.
My quest journal in EQ2 is full all the time, and 99% of the time The area I am leveling in, is also completing not one but usually multiple quests, some I will return to town to complete, some that are instant reward and some that are ongoing and progressive pushing me to find creatures in different areas of the zone or world. If your in an area in EQ and are just level grinding with no quests, then your screwing up and doing it the hard way, as the quests yield tons of exp, coin and usable armor/weapon upgrades. I can easily say 60%+ of my experience in any given level came from quests. Right now I am 37 and still not seeing any signs of the quests slowing down, I have more quests then I honestly know what to do with and every single one of them have me fighting very tough creatures which yield a ton of exp by themselves not to mention good drops, stack the quest reward and exp on top of that and I fail to see how anyone could just Level grind in this game. I will say it bluntly, If you are level grinding in EQ2 with no quests, you are a complete idiot, and yea your gonna hate the game. From my experience with wow, its no different. Do the quests and your gear and levels come easy, dont and you are killing yourself.
Good examples of what to expect from a Quest in EQ exp only. on the average.
Grey quests, half a percent not much, but this quest is far below your level and trivial.
Green quests, 1 percent, see above.
Blue quests, 1-2 percent this is an easily soloable quest, it will yield marginal exp/items and coin.
White quests 3-4 percent, Soloable but challenging. this quest will require you to think before crashing into the area and trying to kill em all.
Yellow quests, 5-8 percent. Plan on grouping this is an difficult task that would be very difficult to solo. Some of these can be done solo with alot of thought and planning.
Red quests, 12% + Soloing these is outright out of the question with few exceptions, Risk is extremely high, Reward is as well.
Note the above is just the Exp recieved off the quest reward its self. This does not take into account the exp you would get killing the mobs, loot, or coin.
You know this thread was bumped from 12 months ago..
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
ROFL, didn't notice.
And Johnark, lol, come on ... it's great you are enjoying your game, but this whole bear hide business practically has me falling out of my chair. THIS is something you feel is worthy of note?? If I didn't know from your other posts that you've played other games I would have to ask if you've ever played any mmorpg before
LOL, dang, that example is precisely a textbook example of braindead activity that people complain about. Damn, you made my morning, lol. And for the record, I don't mind collecting bear hides either ... but then I am an idiot grinder 
And apparently so are you ... you just don't know it yet =p
So WOW "hides" the grinding with hides huh, rofl.
LOL, it was bumped. Almost makes posting pointless, except the issue still stands a year later!
Anyway, EQ2 is nothing like what has been described here. After level 20, you can kiss decent quest experience good bye! The formula is grouped grind, just like the original EQ. Except with this one there is an illusion of purpose because you may just happen to have a meaningless quest to kill those mobs you are grinding on. It just isn't fun anymore.
Oh the bear thing had me cracking up
(thank you for the great laugh)
eq 2 had me killing 500 + knolls still didn't finish the needed quest items and spirit shard
and though not so eleocantly put aeric67, did state my feelings about eq 2 post 20 as well
i understand a game needing a tutorial but having a game (to me so fundementaly change in how i perceive it after a certain point post 20) seems to me to be more mechancis then anything else.
as far as games failing na, just not holding on to ole die hards like they use to ,and when folks stop having fun they leave (plain and simple)
So what exactly do you consider meaningful? Personally to get a 12% bump from one quest while killing the same things that give me excellent grind exp and satisfy the requirement for a couple of other quests at the same time is more then meaningful experience, especially when it is coupled with decent coin or a nice item. But I suppose that is just me, and since my wife plays Wow and I see the exact same time of reward system, I fail to see the Difference in either game outside Wow's experience curve being smaller.
Zoey, I assume you are referring to the betrayal quest..Did you honestly expect the betrayal quest to be anything other then a flat out waste of time? I did the quest going from Qeynos to freeport..and yep I killed 500 grey orcs to finish it, It was a pure pain in the ass. however I would hope your not judging the quest system by a lvl 14 quest that was by design suppossed to be a huge time sink to make players realize that Switching city allegiance was not a trivial matter.
Quest rewards do not diminish 20+ if you are steadily getting good quests, if anything they get better. Especially if you collect all the Lore and Legend quests, Collection quests yield a ton of exp and nice items, and Heritiage quests like the Glowing black stone, Legendary journeyman boots, Serrated Bone dirk, Flowing black silk sash yeild not only insanly nice items, but Crazy amounts of experience. Not all the quests are going to be worth while, there are thousands of quests, yea some of are going to be utter crap. Try looking for ones that are not blue, grey or green, trying sticking to red and yellow you will find the exp rewards are much larger.
Oh and Dare I mention Writ quests..talk about worthwhile.
The reason they fail is that these small companies don't realize much hard work has to go into a MMORPG. You need a really large staff to make one of these games.
Thats why WOW , EQ, FFXI, Stars wars are all successful. They are all made by large companies with a large staff.
when I started reading this thread from the begining I was wondering why Negative71 said
quote:
the only major MMOG I know of that has "failed" in the last 12 months is Motor City Online.
Then looked at the date 01/04
Loved the prediction that SWG would fall in 12 months. Just goes to show, predictions are worthless. They didn't even a mention of "Earth and Beyond" being shut down.
Right now, this whole thread is falling into a "My MMO is better then your MMO." Got to love these old posts.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't