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Safe Zones in PVP (Poll)
boboslave
Member Posts: 77
A question folks.
I've been thinking about a PVP based MMO concept and i'd like ask this about Safe Zones.
In other words, would you prefer safe zones to be artifically enforced to be safe, or to just be relatively safe due to natural consequences that would occur in the environment. Be it from guards, other players, etc.
Comments
Please stop beating the dead horse man. Look at him, his brains are spewed all across the lawn and his eye balls are hanging from that tree over there.
You can't have a FFA PVP game w/o safe zones. It doesn't work, ppl get camped, spawn points get camped, if spawn points are random, the newbie will die before he walks 10 steps anyway.
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Horse is alive and well and currently eating an apple!
Way to not answer the question SnaKey. I'm not talking about NOT having safe zones, i'm wanting to discuss varying forms of their implementation. Please Please don't lump me with BurningPain.
Considering i'm not even talking about a game in particular, how do you even know that there are spawn points? If you don't want to answer a simple freaking question, then that is your choice!
As for me, I just LOVE PVP, and having safe-zones without any harm at all is just lazy-talk.. I would prefer to have one with SEVERE penalties, because that makes the PVP oh so much more exciting! Imagine, You have to sneak up on the enemy, swift kill and flee.. Nothing else beats the numerous of heartbeats a second you get and all the pump flowing trhough your veins at just that moment.. Fantastic! It's almost like PK'ing in Lineage2.
Forcing non PvP zones is definetelly safer for the intruder, but is limiting your freedom I guess. I'm all for open play and concequencies to your actions, could be expressed in many ways, tracking intruder down, negative relations etc. Brings alot more responsibility.
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Emperium Online
Aye, that's what i'm asking. If people would enjoy safe zones that were only safe most of the time, as mostly nothing will ever happen to you. I'm curious, cause safe zones in MMOs that are a blanket ban break some of a world's believability for me.
Keep in mind folks, that i'm asking in relation to a PVP designed game rather than a PVE one. So if there were going to be safe zones, would you prefer them to have total noob protection or a more realistic near-total but not foolproof protection. I'd prefer the latter, as long as any noob killer quickly suffers consequences, be them guards tearing him a new A-hole or players suddenly able to hunt player for a time, or maybe a guild of assasins that offer to make the players life hell for a time for free.
I don't know really, just thinking up ideas and stuff. I'm also not a hardcore FFA PVP fan, i'm just interested in what people would think. For those that want safe zones and those that don't, Would something along these lines be a kind of compromise?
I think I can call myself a hard-core PVP'er.. Sometimes I try to PVP 3 people at the same time (having in mind that they are the same level as me).. I won't manage, but if I die, I bring my high level character disguised in low level gear, and then PVP'ing them (From the L2 open-PVP system).. This will result in them bringing THEIR high level's, and I won't stand a chance.. In the end, I am leveling my low level, with 3 spellsingers (Really good mages in L2, and owns in PVP) behind me, and I still try to PVP other people (of course, when I see them, I run away)
i didn't answer this poll. I always try to answer polls if i'm gonna post on a thread, but this one looked like i could answer A or B, B, B. Maybe i just missed the point.
Anyway, what's a severe consequence? No game i have played to date has a severe consequence. I mean if you are gonna make a player suffer some horrible, game designed punishment for killing a person in the safe zone, why allow them to attack at all? A game with some automatic consequence is only gonna encourage people to create kamikazee characters that they can log on when they feel like griefing. How about we let the society of players deal with its degenerates in the way they see fit.
BTW AC:DT had a nice set up. In the open world you could be attacked anytime by anyone with no game designed consequence. There were also level restriction dungeons that players could fight in without worrying about getting jumped by a guy 5 times his level. The dungeons weren't safe zones because you could still be attacked, but they only allowed players level 1-5, 25-35, etc etc in them. They were just safer zones. Also, that game had the worst death penalty of any that i have played. Any time you got killed you left a certain number of items on your corpse (about 1 item per 10 levels) and half your pyreals (AC gold). If you got killed by a player, they could loot you. However, you could carry what we called "death items" to help insure you didn't lose any valuable gear. If a player really wanted to make your life hell, he would find your lifestone and kill you, then loot your corpse and kill you again, and again until he had all your money and items. You wanted to keep the location of your lifestone a well guarded secret, hehe.
Which FF Character Are You?
I voted for the first option but only because I think the only true safe zone in any PvP/FFA PvP based game should be the "noob zone." Even then, I think that should be restricted by level to prevent someone from running in there to avoid getting killed.
Outside of said zone/after a certain level you are fair game. NPC guards(in towns mainly) and your friends are your only hope.
Cities, with npc guards that stick to the rules - they are the safe zones of my ideal game. There is no actual restriction on your ability to attack, but your ability to land a second blow should be severely impaired by that nice, feathered set of arrows protruding from your back. That is, competent guards, if I failed to specify.
There could be villages and more poorly protected cities, as well as cities that required you to give up your weapons at the gates (but you could sneak in a dagger if you dared try and were lucky/skilled, by concealing it - or find an alternate entrance where you could bring any weapon). In a city where no weapon is allowed, you need to be able to conceal the weapon until it is used, if not longer.
These are logically safe zones that make sense in most settings. And you know there is no guarantee that you won't get kiled. Even fists can get the job done in a pinch. Well, maybe a pinch *ouch* won't do...
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
lol, yeah, sorry Kahnz I can see how it could confuse.
What i'm doing is attempting to think about a middle ground between those that want safe zones that are enforced and those that want none at all.
B, C & D are basically the same concept just extended a little.
I haven't defined severe punishment, as that would be something worked out by the game and its style. I guess punishment is the wrong word, as I wouldn't want any game to say 'bad player, bad'.
Let me try to explain a little.
If you can kill a player anywhere at anytime, but in some areas there a repocusions for doing so. It might create a naturally safe zone, where not as much killing occurs. The repocussion may in some cases be game driven, such as guards etc, but they also might be player driven as well. In a game that features Permadeath this would also add something interesting to the mix.
What i would like to see is a game that has (relatively) realistic responses from the world and players for getting caught, note - not the act of killing but the getting busted for it. In the real world there are only repocussions if you get caught, clever people don't. I think it would be interesting if a game allowed people to break the rules, and avoid consequences but have it very difficult to do so.
Example. Let's say i wish to kill a player who is currently staying in a heavily defended town. When i enter the town, the guards take my weapons away from me telling me that i'll get them back when i leave, so now my trusty dagger is no longer of use. Luckily for me, my stash of poisons are still very much with me. I change my clothes into something that offers some form of disguise, and enter the main section of town.
Now, knowing that the player lodges at a particular tavern, I begin talking with the bar wenches. Flirting outrageously with em, giving them a false name of course. I notice that the player is enjoying a game of dice with other players in the inn. Seems to be winning too. Smiling I begin my plan to change his luck. After laying many smiles and advances on the barwench I begin to have an effect on her, taking my opportunity I distract her and poison the goblet of wine that she has just poored for our unfortunate friend.
After making promises to the wench that i'll never ever keep, i slip out the back of the tavern unnoticed, shed my disguise and head for the gate. I find out from my contacts/friends/allies in the town who know me, that my mission was successful and my target is dead (his unfortunate friends as well).
Having covered my tracks well, nothing points to me as the culprit. My reputation as a skilled assasin is becoming well known, and the list of jobs awaiting my return to my base of operations is mounting. Players are so happy to have me kill other players, as often they lack the skill to do so without getting themselves in trouble with the law.
Combine this with server support for permadeath and i think you'd get a real interesting challenge for players, one that would keep someone playing even if their character dies. I haven't discussed various implementations of permadeath yet, but with these kind of safe zones i think it would be hella fun.
I know Kahnz, that you'd like a world totally run and driven by players, and whilst i would find that interesting as well. I think that i'd like a world that is not devoid of NPCs, but instead have the NPCs serve the players rather than the other way round. If a player was clumsy and was spotted pooring the poison into the drinks, perhaps friends of the murdered player could investigate the tavern and talk to the people there. They may find information very useful in tracking down the would be assassin, allowing them to hand out revenge of the coolest order.
I like the idea of lifestones, that might make permadeath a little bit easier for those folks that shirk at that as well.
This just me spouting ideas guys, feel free to say they're crap, but realise that i'm only curious here. I'm interested in seeing if a middle ground could be found the variety of different PVP'ers out there on a number subjects, cause if there was i think we'd have one hell of a game on our hands. Most of my ideas would take some pretty cleaver dev programming, which is something that i certainly lack. Thanks all.
Hehe, that's the direction i'm thinking in. Zones that are safe only because the world around you makes sense. I missed your post before i posted mine, now i just look like a copied. /cry
It doesn't just have to be guards, getting busted for a crime could hurt your standing with some NPCs to the point where even if you managed to escape you may not be able to enter the city again due to guards wanting to kill you. Of course, you don't alwasy have to enter by normal means though now do you.
Creative > Hack and Slash is i guess my point.
I want other ways to kill and to PVP, ways that make sense to the world and environment that i'm playing in and not forced on me by game mechanics only there to make it easier on those more sensitive among us.
Note: These ideas would need by necessity a non-level based game, where noobs are not defenseless against older characters. In WoW lvl 60 vs lvl 1 would be a very short blink of a fight! lol
[quote]Originally posted by boboslave
[b][quote]
It doesn't just have to be guards, getting busted for a crime could hurt your standing with some NPCs to the point where even if you managed to escape you may not be able to enter the city again due to guards wanting to kill you. Of course, you don't alwasy have to enter by normal means though now do you.
Creative > Hack and Slash is i guess my point.
I want other ways to kill and to PVP, ways that make sense to the world and environment that i'm playing in and not forced on me by game mechanics only there to make it easier on those more sensitive among us.
Note: These ideas would need by necessity a non-level based game, where noobs are not defenseless against older characters. In WoW lvl 60 vs lvl 1 would be a very short blink of a fight! lol
[/b][/quote]
Of course, a non-level based game isn't necessarily proof against that. And theoretically, a level-based system could be built to work around that as well, though doing so would be much harder.
The PVP should be about the freedom to do it. If you cannot (Like lineage2) attack people inside villages whatsoever, then there can be the abusing this Safe-zone feature! Attack, and retreat.. With severe penalties (Like loosing a weapong [Ahh the agony, in Lineage2]) there is more excitement, as Akuzura has already stated.
yes, I also voted for "Severe penalties"
I play Lineage2!!!!
True, a creative dev team could do anything that their tech and imagination would allow, and so could possibly find the means. Level games however, do generally put 'overall power' on a treadmill so to speak, with first level being incredibly less powerful than last level. Making it harder to balance the noob gankage aspect, especially if there is no risk to the veteran player by attacking the noob player.
Non-level based games have the opportunity to allow for progression that is not just purely about your power, making noob vs veteran not such a known result. Perhaps progression could be based on influence and knowledge, and the application of such proving skill. I'm not sure what could be done, but I do feel that level games do not offer the best area to test and play with ideas like these.
A couple of things:
First, poisons are a cool idea for the predator, but it's a classic example of when gameplay should preside over roleplay. Imagine if, instead of being the assasin, you are the target. You are relaxing in a safe zone playing some mini-game, then BAM! your dead. That sounds about as much fun as lagging into a lair of gorgons. I know that you can have some constitution roll, maybe an antidote that you need to carry all the time. However, it's nothing more than a gank, a one-shot from a stealther, getting rolled by a zerg. Now, if this is a game with permadeath, i am a guy who was trying to take a break from the grind, and i get one shotted. My character is dead and i had no fun dieing. Well, i guess i could start from scratch again, but i think i'll just go back to RvRing with my level 50 in DAoC because who wants to start all over if some A-hole is just gonna kill you at the craps table.
I like the idea of having to remove all your weapons, but only because there would be bar brawls all over the place:)
Seriously, though if guards are gonna kill any murderers in town, people are just gonna try it to beat the guards. That's what i do when i get bored. You can implement all kinds of rules to discourage it, but why try so hard? Either say, "this town is safe" or say, "you're on your own" All the inbetween shit just sucks up resources that should be spent trying to develop content.
I don't really have a problem with safe zones in PvP as long as the player can't xp there.
Also, what about instead of having, guards, check-in stations, blah blah you just allow guilds to "claim" a town as their base. When the members of those guilds are in the town limits they have some awesome advantage, like really high HP regen. Anyone could attack you in the town, but because you are defending your "home" you are fighting much harder.
There would be no limit to the number of guilds who could claim any one town (only one town at a time tho), so if an enemy guild wanted to raid, they would sneak in to claim the town, talk to the mayor, hit the bindstone, whatever. Then they could have massive battles that would last a very long time since both sides would have the HP regen.
BTW i don't think that every game should be devoid of NPCs. Alot of Devs just aren't talented enough to design content without someone guiding yuo through every step. I'd hate to see all those guys put out of work.
Which FF Character Are You?
Yes Kahnz, it's a gank. BUT, what if that was the point of the game. The greater or cleverer the gank, the more respect and fear for the killer. The victim doesn't have to be helpless in this situation, if i reversed the story I could spin a yarn about a trader who after securing a highly sort after trade deal, discovered through his own contacts that a contract had been taken out on his life. Obviously, the trader would then take precautions to preserve his life where possible, and if he is stupid enough to trust wine from just any old barwench, then perhaps he should die from his stupidity anyway.
I wasn't really discussing permadeath dude, as i'm only really interested in how safe zones might work. What I was alluding to, was that it might be an interesting thing to combine with permadeath rules, I didn't say what is or isn't a permadeath. Perhaps dying from poison isn't permanent, as you can be brought back to life from your [insert convenient way of storing ones soul here]. You also assume, that playing cards/dice is taking a 'break' from the grind. What if the game didn't have a grind and this type of gameplay was a valid method of progressing your characters influence in the world? What if besting someone in a game of chess (in-game) had repocussions that might lead to PVP action elsewhere, or provide a stepping stone to get closer (socially) to the person who you'd really like to kill. Kahnz bud, I don't have a game here to show, just the ideas. Stop thinking of the game around them, as that could be anything given a creative developer's imagination (of course where would we find that?).