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Dealing with Ganker's etc...
EliasThorne
Member UncommonPosts: 338
I just read a great idea that Roma Victor are doing - they'll literally crucify you if you break the rules (gank, exploit etc).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I think its a great idea and totally within the character of the game, of course religious groups are going to complain, but then you can't please everyone, it it led to to thinking could HJ have a similar system, of course not crucifixion but maybe public stocks or even a hanging or stick heads on poles if its a permanent ban?
I also think that depending on the crime there should be a small plaque that briefly details the crime and names known associates (ie alts).
With this idea people would get to know repeat offenders and know to avoid them, especially with the amount of detail that HJs putting into the look of your character it could work very well indeed 
Of course some people with relish the idea and be encouraged by their friends to get into trouble for the fun of it, but that wont last long, a couple of week bans followed by an execution will stop them in their tracks.
Gotta love the Roman's, offering up great ideas even now
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Comments
"of course religious groups are going to complain,"
Why do you think that? Crusificying someone was a form of punishment back then. Jesus wasn't the only one to be crusified. That was standard punishment.
As far as the idea, it is a good one, I agree.
Because alot of religious groups tend to over-react.
But, yeah, it's not a bad idea.
I find that religious groups over-react because they think their religion is sent to them by god, and if you don't agree they either hate you or have to save you, and either way is horrible.. So there is a lot of conflict, and they won't agree with other religions, because those religions aren't really from god now are they?
I think that if there IS a god, all religion is really gods, even satanism and devil worship, because god would be everything, and everything definitely includes satan. (Note I know that satanism doesn't actually have anything to do with satan)
And I know that the idea of god being satan is hard for some people to accept, but if god is everything, god is evil and hateful and angry just as much as good and kind.
Crucifiying would have been a really painful way to die.. I could see something of a different version of that put up for the public, and I can imagine the hilarities, especially if they can still log in and talk, but not get out of it for a day or two.. DR has stocks, but not for if you're messing with policy, stocks are just for if you don't have a lot of fines, and you can sit in them for fifteen minutes or so instead of paying the fine off. It's pretty funny though, because there's an urchin who sells tomatos at the stocks and you can buy them and throw them at whoever is in them at the time.. I think they're snowballs in the winter...
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
Even mention religion and everything goes haywire it seems.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I like this idea.
Say someone's account is suspended. The character they were logged on as when they made the offense is then locked up in the stocks or something in the nearest town for everyone to see.
GM's could even put tomatos up for sale! We could throw things at them!
Haha, punishment, fun for the rest, and a money sink, all in one!
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I'd rather see something heavier for same.
Maybe they'd be in stocks at the end of a shooting range of sorts, but instead of bows and arrows, people'd be gived a sling and some bean bags or something. Then they'd go first person and try to hit certain spots for points.
It could be like a carnival game. Earn enough points and you could get some little items that don't really help, but are interesting looking. Like, carnival type items, or something. You know, goofy ones. Like, say, you could stitch some fake stuffed fish onto your pauldrons. Maybe they could even let you have a fish skewered on your spear... please?
I've got it! Normally, there'd be a dummy in there, so you could play whenever, but if someone made an offense, they'd have to take the place of the dummy. Maybe if they got hit enough times, they'd get bruises that would wear off around three days after they were let go. That'd be an awesome little mini-game to throw in, and it'd also be punishment.
Hrm, did someone mention that Dragonrealms has this already?
In the winter, the tomatos change to snowballs instead.
This was always fun to do. Then again, I was a thief there and I was the one always in the stocks.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
"mentally frustrating people" seems like it would only be fun to mentally frustrated people... if WoW fills your void why move to other places?
Be one with it.
MMO's offer options to a wide variety of players. And when one group of players' game is ruined due to another group, then you run into problems of lost customers. I'd think that one of the most important concerns for an MMO Game Company is player retention, and expansion, and that would be difficult if faced with rampant ganking and unsatisfied customers. I know I've heard of at least a few games where this is an issue, and it hurts the game's image (at least in my opinion).
That's just my 2 cents.
-------------------------
"An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love."
- HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM)
Hero's Journey - World Building Team
http://play.net/hj/
you stated though that the "Funnest" part of the game is what you can do on WoW... the rest would seem trivial compared to the funnest part...
maybe its the funnest part because thats all that you can do that is fun in WoW. imagine a game thats got more to it then making people angry. personally i think ganking is bad unless theres a system that effectively discourages it...
because its not balanced if you can kill somone and take there stuff without fear of any kind of retaliation.... then ganking is unbalanced and needs to be in check. ganking would be more fun in my opinion if you might be aprehended... then it becomes more skillfull and not just a lame and pitifull way to piss people off and get items because u have nothing better to do in a crappy game
Be one with it.
Ganking is not griefing, let's remember this.
Open PvP is a ton of fun. It works for the kinds of people who like this sort of thing, where the abuse can go on and no one can cry foul. I have no problem with this; I play on Illidan in WoW and absolutely love it. But when it's time to slow down, I'll play on a normal server. It is good to be able to choose to PvP by server but it's also nice to be able to elect to PvP on any server. Decisions, decisions...
I don't know yet if we will offer pure PvP servers for HJ or if we will make PvP a player- or guild-elected option. The one thing we are keen on in any setup is PPvP, purposeful player-versus-player. We want real reasons for PvP, reasons that matter for your character, your guild, your home town, your country, your deity.
My own philosophy is that there should be as much reward for abstaining from griefing as there is for engaging in PvP in the first place. Something a little more substantial than points won or points lost. Does anyone have any ideas?
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When you do something right people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
What I like about DR is the fact that anyone can kill anyone(if they're powerful enough) at any time BUT!...yes, a big but (one T not two), it's so discouraged that it's very rare. Some of my favorite moments have been sudden PvP on a boat, or what not and you can't escape...you have to deal with it.
Another BUT, that is in a text game and while you do get your snerts now and then(like that griefer guy above..there is a difference between ganking and griefing...killing people to 'mentally frustrate' them would be in the griefer catagory) it's mostly intelligent/mature people. In graphical MMORPGs, you get a whole new batch of 13 year olds who get beat up all the time and feel the need to make people 'mentally frustrated'. So I don't know if the above system would work...just look at UO.
But to prevent griefing there has to be an ingame solution to detect and recognize griefing...
Well.... what if the attacker - instead of the kill gets a message that he "now can kill" his opponent...
if he does it he can not again kill this player for 24 Hours... if he does not kill his opponent (because he clicks "I will not kill my worthy foe" he gets some "Honor reward points" or someting... I can not tell what factions etc there are in the game.. but maybe some neutral group that gives you goodies when you are honored enough.... maybe some priests of a livegiving god(dess) or something?
I do like PvP and I could enjoy the danger of FFA PvP except for the fact that bad or criminal behavior is not censured strongly enough.
Some games deal with this in a simple but effective way. In Planetside, for example, the accumulation of "Grief Points" (by account, not just tagged to one character) does put a damper on simply wasting friendlies. You will hit friendlies and they will hit you, but the simple use of a Grief Point system does, surprisingly, keep pointless ganking (of friendlies) to a minimum -- you have to be really sloppy to rack up 1000 GPs.
Lemme give a short example:
One day while testing New Frontiers for DAoC, I enter the game and ask, "What ruleset is being used today?"
Somebody replies: "PvP."
Two seconds later, somebody comes up to me (cuz I opened my big mouth and asked a question) and BLAMMO! kills me. That is, somebody on my OWN SIDE did that.
Now, the death penalty is insignificant in DAoC (PvP), however, when there is no functionality to deal with "bad" behavior, bad behavior abounds. This also trivializes the whole concept of PvP in that there is little "reward" (except the twisted pleasure of causing grief to another player, which many love to do) yet there is also no "punishment" for the act.
So, my general feeling is that PvP is fun and FFA PvP can also be fun IF there is functionality to include punishment for "bad" behavior, such as newbie ganking, which additionally means there will be little risk for perpetrating the "criminal" act and no (server-side) consequences for doing it.
Seems to me that, yes, there should be the possibility of "criminal" actions (PvP attacks on friendlies, for example), however, with significant punishments for breaking the rules (of the game society).
~ Ancient Membership ~
/signed as far as this topic goes. Yeah, crucifixion would be out of place, but I believe the stockades and heads on pikes idea would be perfect for this game.
I am relitively new to online gaming. A few years. Gaming in general really. I enjoy a challenge. But a challenge with a purpose.
I to this day can not understand the draw of games like Unreal and other online FPS. Running around a hundred miles an hour trying to get the drop on some poor slob is fun for maybe a half an hour if that. To me that is.
But in MMORPGs I just don't see the point in bashing other players. They have nothing to do with my quests. I get nothing for it. And mainly it isn't what I would do if I were the character I am playing. I am not a RPer. That has it's merits. But I am in the virtual world to explore and enjoy trhe content. Not to see if I can beat down someone that is weaker than me.
I can understand contests with prizes. One on one battles, party battles and so on. But with tangible items to gain. And not just fighting. Contest to see who can get through an area without killing anything or the least kills. Heck have scavenger hunts.
Arenas to test your mettle for bragging rights as the most powerful wizard. If you remain undefeated for so many battles you are grand champion until you are deposed. This brings with it the use of a special spell or item bestowed by the local magistrate.
Maybe gladiatorial battles to work off debt by entertaining those who would like to watch a battle. The better you perform the more debt you work off. Have a NPC croud that reacts like an applause meter based on how much smack down you achieve.
Maybe avatars can pick an alignment. Good would obviously never harm the weak or anyone undeserving. The more shady alignments would and could do less reputable things like attack someone. But they themselves could be attacked by all good alignments as well as other shady alignments. Shady equals constantly in danger.
If quests were joined in a way that two or more could be at odds with each other. So if solos or groups have opposing quests then the ensuing PVP would be quest related and actually have meaning and probably be tons of fun. There are always opposing factions in these games. This house hates that house, the theives guild being hounded by the local authority. And they all give quests. So it stands to reason that these quests goals would probably be at odds with one another. I think that is the perfect opportunity to pit players against each other.
Have areas set up where you have to trap the opposing team. Use the environment to incapacitate as many of the other team as possible. While trying to keep your own team out of trouble.
But no matter how much I think about PVP I can never seem to find a reason for it to be a free for all. Sad to say but people usually do not play by the rules. And one loser that killed another player just out of sheer mean stupidity is one too many in my book. I would never give weak willed people the chance to mess up the fun of others.
I would love the chance to pit my skills and brains and tactics against another real person. But only if unbreakable rule sets are applied. Otherwise, I may never join in the mass hysteria that is PVP.
Great post with some good ideas in there, I like the alignment idea in principle but I suspect it wouldn't work as "evil" guilds roam the land unopposed - remember that the hardcore pvp crowd are a load and vocal set, some of whom seem to lack self control and at times common decency...
...thankfully the bulk of them are fine... and there I go off topic (again!!)
Anyway nice ideas, arenas and especially the crowd
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
/signed as far as this topic goes. Yeah, crucifixion would be out of place, but I believe the stockades and heads on pikes idea would be perfect for this game.
So since I 'ganked' your low level character I have to stand in time-out for 30minutes? Sounds pathetic, and an easy cancelation of a mass number of poeple.
How about a jail then, where you can talk with other inmates?
In DR I spend plenty of time (waay too much) locked up, and then when I do finally get sentenced, I have to pay a fine on top of it. Most people who play have been arrested for something or other, accidental or not, I don't see anyone canceling their accounts because of a little jail time. I do think 30 minutes is excessive, but a good 5 minute break, per person killed, once caught, sounds pretty fair to me. (In DR I sit around the jail for a good 5-10 minutes, and if I could still go to the stocks it would be another 5 or so minutes there.)
What about the 30+ minutes the other player (you know, the dead one) has to make up in exp or whatever death "lesson" they choose?
You can't just think about one side of it, there are always at least two sides to a story.
Oh and I don't know at all how death, or any of those systems will work. This is just my little disclaimer so people who don't know me, know I don't know what I'm talking about most of the time.
I just like to blablbaabablab
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
I just don't belive spending 'time-out' would appeal to a lot of people who are hardcore PvP. If this was implemented in WoW you would see a mass-account cancelation I can gaurentee you that. And if you say 'well let them play WoW', then you need to figure that Simutronics I am sure is trying to steal some of their subscribers to say.
I know you put that disclaimer, but I'm sure that the death penalty wont even be a waste of 5 minutes. Just allow gankers, griefers. I don't see the big deal.
Okay a couple of points, just because you disagree with a game approach (ie a time out box) that would not mean a "mass cancelation", it would mean you cancelled, and maybe a couple of your mates - which as you think ruining the fun of others is fun then I say no loss there.
Second piont, in think 5 minutes it too little as that person would spend their entire jail term boiling the kettle - but yeah 30 mins may be harsh - 15-20 mins should be enough, a decent deterent but not enough to turn the game off, go into a hissy fit, spit your dummy so far and hard that it makes bullet holes in your cot and then cancel
I don't think we need to go over yet again why ganking is a big deal so I wont bother onless my some goats come and rattle my bridge again
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
-------------------------
"An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love."
- HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM)
Hero's Journey - World Building Team
http://play.net/hj/
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall