Game Vs World Simulation Helios Posts in Game Discussion Forum

Edmonde

This is Helios Post on the Game Discussion Forum...my reply to his is underneath it!!!

 

 

So I made a comment about SWG moving away from being mostly a world simulation towards being more of a game.  As there may have been some misunderstanding, I'll take a minute to clarify.

 

In any simulation the point is to model the real thing as close as possible in an effort to bring the experience to life.  This generally only works well if the simulation is extremely accurate.  A world simulation is one of the most complex kind of simulations you could think of building, involving literally billions of variables, knobs and switches that all interconnect in some harmonious manner.

 

Of course, an extremely accurate world simulation is not only beyond the capacity of a team of game developers to create but is also beyond  the processing power of any computers available on the free market today.  As such, when game developers create world "simulations" they already have to allow for a large number of inconsistencies (light sabers in SWG have never carried the danger of chopping off a limb, for instance). 

 

World simulations are difficult to maintain because of their inherent lack of precision - there are no truly self governing systems.   In addition, while extremely accurate world simulations may not be feasible with today's technology, world simulations with a dizzying number of rules, causes and effects certainly are.  Such world simulation games typically suffer from an extreme learning curve and tend to foster unnatural and repetitive game play.  I'm not saying that such undesireable gameplay is the result of the world simulation itself - no - it is instead a direct result of our inability to create extremely accurate world simulations.  Everything computers do has a pattern to it, and humans have an innate ability to master patterns in the most efficient way possible.  Only nature itself is truly random.

 

As you make more and more provisions for the lack of accuracy in your simulation you naturally gravitate towards a more pliable and "game-y" environment.   A "simulation" and a "game" are in essence the same thing, only with varying degrees of accuracy.

 

This shift away from "simulation" and towards "game" can happen "orderly" as part of a conscious decision making process or it can happen "chaotically" as a side-effect of making provisions for an inaccurate simulation.

 

That being said, while we may have made a conscious decision to put more "game" into SWG, we are still endeavoring to provide an exciting Star Wars fantasy set in a persistent state world.  Persistent state worlds do not necessarily imply "simulation", but they do imply things like community, a virtual society, an economy and other such things we gave grown to enjoy about SWG. 

 

 

-Helios Titan
-Lead Systems Designer, SWG
"I find your lack of faith...disturbing."

 

Tho I appreciate your candor by actually posting your thoughts but making the "game" I loved into Battlefield 2 just is not ideal in my perspective...

I had over 20 accounts and all of the professions covered...but you and the others took that away...I enjoyed SWG even with the CU but when I wanted to come back I did not have the heart to change my great toons of old into something "Iconic"...

If I wanted to play Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke or Leia then I will play BF2 or some other Star Wars game...but I came here to play Edmonde Dantes, Mercades Dantes, Coeda Oskir, Kanyon Callinine, Phoen, Brutusarock, Violator, Ph'art Schmellar, Dhon De La Croutaghn, and many others that are not "Iconic"...but one thing was for sure with the community that I played with(Kauri) it sure the hell was "Star Warsy" to us...

I hope that some day the people who made the decision to put in the NGE and take away many peoples time money and fun, find out that what was before even with all of the bugs and frustrations this game was the game of all games...it was not a game for the "younglings" but it was a game for Star Wars Fans everywhere...

and if you asked us before what would have brought all of those veterans back...all it would have taken was a little time fixing bugs and communicating with the player base...

but Now I fear its too late because there is no change of ever getting the game I loved back...not with the likes of Chris Cao and yourself Helios thinking of what YOU want to work on is what WE want you to work on...

again Helios I will say it...SWG is not BF2 and what you and the other devs are doing is making it into BF2...sorry to say it will not work...especially when we dont have to pay for a sub to play BF2...

to all my friends within all communities here in SWG...I have lost all hope for this game...I am sorry if I let you down...

Edmonde

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Helios_SOE wrote:

So, the question "what should be more like a game" arises.  The specific example that started this discussion was that a Politician skill shouldn't be required to place and/or manage player structures.  That's a perfect example of how trying to retain the idea of a world simulation or "sand box" makes gameplay more opaque than it needs to be.   In fact, improving overall player ability to manipulate world structures in a cohesive manner would be an enhancement to the community.  Over-complicating things for the sake of simulation detracts rather than adds to gameplay in many instances.  

This is not to imply, however,  that over-simplification is desirable.  Ideally, you would make a game like Chess vs. a game of Checkers.  Both have fairly simply rules for engagement.  When you look at the whole thing, however,  Chess is infinitely more strategic because of how it's set up.  It's easy to grasp the basic concept, but once you understand those basics you can take the same building blocks to make something much more interesting and diverse.

As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system.  While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market).  With the NGE the system was over-simplified.  We have recognized the deficiency in the NGE skill system and are introducing an expertise system that gives you the customization of the previous system without the complexities it's predecessor suffered.  

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Let me get this straight...you would rather have a game where it was not in depth and didn't have any kind of learning curve at all? I mean come on this game was supposed to be a game for mature players was it not? if mature players could not learn the game then it obviously was not for them...hell why didnt you guys just make another MMO for the lower learning curve you were looking for...you know EQ sounds about right...so why couldnt you just leave SWG alone for the mature players to play...we all loved the higher learning curve...it kinda meant we were assured mature players...ofcourse tho we had ass hats on every server who were 15 yr old kids with nothing better to do but exploit and grief but I guess that is the player base you wish to serve now...its just easier for them now...

ALSO I know this has been said Millions of times but don't you think that one of the biggest problems of this game was JEDI??? Even now you guys say that Jedi deserve to be the forefront because "Everyone wants to be one"...well hell I had one yet I only played him maybe 5% of the time...I enjoyed my crafters the most...I feel the biggest problem with Pre-CU and CU was the Jedi getting all of the attention...I believe if the Devs would have given the other professions as much time then we wouldn't be in this mess...

again tho I am leaving and it looks like me and my 20+ accounts will not be back...thanks alot to you and the other Devs that have lost sight of what this game was...

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Helios_SOE wrote:

So, the question "what should be more like a game" arises.  The specific example that started this discussion was that a Politician skill shouldn't be required to place and/or manage player structures.  That's a perfect example of how trying to retain the idea of a world simulation or "sand box" makes gameplay more opaque than it needs to be.   In fact, improving overall player ability to manipulate world structures in a cohesive manner would be an enhancement to the community.  Over-complicating things for the sake of simulation detracts rather than adds to gameplay in many instances.  

This is not to imply, however,  that over-simplification is desirable.  Ideally, you would make a game like Chess vs. a game of Checkers.  Both have fairly simply rules for engagement.  When you look at the whole thing, however,  Chess is infinitely more strategic because of how it's set up.  It's easy to grasp the basic concept, but once you understand those basics you can take the same building blocks to make something much more interesting and diverse.

As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system.  While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market).  With the NGE the system was over-simplified.  We have recognized the deficiency in the NGE skill system and are introducing an expertise system that gives you the customization of the previous system without the complexities it's predecessor suffered.  

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Let me get this straight...you would rather have a game where it was not in depth and didn't have any kind of learning curve at all? I mean come on this game was supposed to be a game for mature players was it not? if mature players could not learn the game then it obviously was not for them...hell why didnt you guys just make another MMO for the lower learning curve you were looking for...you know EQ sounds about right...so why couldnt you just leave SWG alone for the mature players to play...we all loved the higher learning curve...it kinda meant we were assured mature players...ofcourse tho we had ass hats on every server who were 15 yr old kids with nothing better to do but exploit and grief but I guess that is the player base you wish to serve now...its just easier for them now...

ALSO I know this has been said Millions of times but don't you think that one of the biggest problems of this game was JEDI??? Even now you guys say that Jedi deserve to be the forefront because "Everyone wants to be one"...well hell I had one yet I only played him maybe 5% of the time...I enjoyed my crafters the most...I feel the biggest problem with Pre-CU and CU was the Jedi getting all of the attention...I believe if the Devs would have given the other professions as much time then we wouldn't be in this mess...

again tho I am leaving and it looks like me and my 20+ accounts will not be back...thanks alot to you and the other Devs that have lost sight of what this game was...