FOH FORUMS: Another lead designer leaves sigil.

angerr · March 2006

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/18810-another-lead-designer-leaves-sigil.html

wow! what a crazy thread this is, several NDA violations with ceo's from sigil and soe chiming in. i think that it is freaking awsome that brad and sigil fight back and defend themselves publicly and let us know what the real facts are.

a very interesting read if you are bored and have time to read 12+pages lol ::::28::

Grymlok · March 2006

*edit: Brad quotes a lot of people in his posts, so in parts you might have to make your brain do thinky stuff to figure out where the quoted parts end...*

Nice job angerr, I was just coming here to make the same post. ;)Oh well, I'll make myself slightly useful by quoting Brad's comments here. The thread is really quite the read though, considering that Smed (John Smedley of Sony/EQ2) makes some comments in there too. Brad shreds into some trolls in great style. Really a great thread for Vanguard fans or old-time MMO'ers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redav
when sigil first got started you often stated that the people working behind the scenes should get more recognition. be carefull what you wish for?

This is true. We are very open about who works at Sigil, what they do, their past experiences and pedigree, etc. The downside of this is that when people leave, the public often notices and we really can't talk about any details as to what occured because that wouldn't respect the privacy of either Sigil or the individual leaving. It also makes it easy, btw, for head hunters to go down our roster and solicit people (not saying this occured in this case -- not commenting at all on any specific departure).

The updside is that people get recognized for their contributions and that it's on an individual basis, such that we're not some nameless corporate entity. It's been important from since Sigil formed that we promote those who work here and are open about both people coming and going (although as I mentioned, the details of why someone leaves must ethicaly remain private). And I remain proud that we are open about who works here, and what they did before coming to Sigil, involving them in interviews, promoting them where we can, etc. No regrets.

So even when people do leave and a thread pops up like this on a message board, I still feel strongly that the upsides to promoting people outweigh the downsides and such a policy is better than that of other companies who are much more private about who works there and what they do.

We wish Lawrence the best and I know he has a bright future ahead of him wherever he ends up. He contributed a lot to the game and to the company and I consider him a friend. Beyond that, however, the issue is a private one.

The bottom line is that with 95 people now at Sigil, and with projects lasting 3+ years, people will come and go. Some will be more visible as their names are known and/or they held senior positions or were with the company for a while. With other people, changes in employment sometimes aren't noticed by the gaming public. For example, we just hired two new people last week, which didn't generate a thread anywhere. Such is life.

Anyway, we will continue to be open about who works at Sigil, their backgrounds, etc., and undoubtedly people will continue to come to the company as we naturally grow, and also people will leave for a variety of reasons. And, like I said, those reasons will the vast majority of the time remain private as that's the right way to do business, even with our more open approach in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
I am talking about things other than combat. Boats, player owned ships, pirates, better NPC AI similar to scripting in Oblivion, flying mounts, and a ton of other things that are now most likely going to be cut and finished on subscription revenue.

Ok, enough revisionist history, and most certainly enough with the questionable motives.

Boats, player owned ships, pirates, ever increasing AI complexity, etc. are all going in right now or have been in. I demo'd player owned ships to testers and at Fanguards (read: the public) MONTHS ago -- who pray tell are you to come here and post that they are likely going to be cut when they're already in-game? Did I nerf your class or an item back in the early EQ days or something? Enough already.

Right now we're adjusting wind speeds, tweaking travel time between Thestra and Qalia, fixing a few bugs when ships travel between server regions, etc. Tweaking and smashing bugs, not implementing core systems.

I've watched beta testers sail up and down the river outside of Tursh. I've seen the AI using water pathing to move an NPC driven boat (e.g. pirates) displayed to me by the programmer working on it. Under no circumstances are they going anywhere but into this game by launch (and not just by launch, but people will be sailing them between continents and through archipelagos in the next phase of beta).

Lastly, flying mounts are something we plan to do for sure after launch, but may possibly get in before launch, but no promises. I have been crystal clear about managing these expectations on our message boards and elsewhere. To what end would you lump in a possible feature with something we’ve committed to, like player owned ships?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
The genre needs to advance. Better physics engines, NPC behavior patterns and adjustments, weather/seasonal upgrades, dynamic world changes, etc. None of this stuff is going to start making it into MMORPG's until designers buy a clue and figure out a decent combat system doc before they design the game so they do not have to revamp mechanics 5 times in beta while everything else gets shelved.

You exhibit a fundamental misunderstanding here between implementing a system and then later tweaking it based on feedback from beta and completely starting from scratch and throwing out everything that existed before. It seems as if there is no in-between for you, that a system is either implemented perfectly the first time or if that fails, a completely new system must be created from scratch to replace the old. This is patently false.

The tweaks we are doing to balance, to make combat more proactive yet still reactive when it needs to be, the adjusting of formulas and experience curves, making sure casual content is viable, etc. are simply that: tweaks. And not all of them unexpected -- much of the data we needed to make these more final decisions could only be gained through beta testing. MMOGs are so complex, with so many variables interacting with each other, that until you have at least hundreds of people using multiple systems at the same time, you cannot simulate much of the feedback you really need (despite attempts to use automation, bots, etc. to help with some of these issues). Others still require thousands and a full server/world/shard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
That's fantastic. And Itz brings up a great point. I won't have a problem with it if they extend the beta the same amount of time that they spend revamping so they can finish everything else they wanted to finish, instead of shipping a game where say 12 months of design was intended to go into other features, but because of a severe lack of foresight, customers end up paying for the short sightedness of developers.

Again, minimal work is being re-done from scratch, but rather the bulk tweaks and formula adjustments. In fact, many of the changes are made in the database – they are data driven and don’t even require coding changes. The biggest loss of time has probably been the UI, which should be ahead of where it’s at, and does require re-work as opposed to tweaking. That is something we are pushing hard to get into the game before the next phase of beta. Like I said, the combat tweaks, or at least the next round of them, will go in in a few weeks and then we’ll see how they play out, and then make tweaks again if necessary: classic beta testing 101. Did it in EQ, and doing it in Vanguard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
But that isn't going to happen. What will happen is:

McQuaid: "We revamped combat and a lot of the game world, balance and such, and it is now fun."

Microsoft: "Ok. Ship it, and we'll finish the rest of the planned features on subscription revenue"

What should happen:

McQuaid/Microsoft: "We needed to schedule a stall of the other features while allocating time and resources to a combat/content/art revamp. We need 6 more months of dev time to finish what was stalled before we go retail"

I regret to inform you that you are not a prophet in RL, although feel free to RP one in a game other than Vanguard. The reality is that we’ve not announced a release date. We’ve no intention to launch a game before it’s ready. We’ve always advocated long betas and are involved in one right now. EverQuest was in beta 9 months. We have better tools now and are more experienced, yet Vanguard is a more complex game. So I don’t know when we’ll launch exactly, but both Sigil and Microsoft are committed to shipping a solid game.

Will that mean that the game is ‘done’? It depends on how you look at it. To me, the beauty of MMOGs is that you can always add to them, both content and features. So from that standpoint an MMOG is never done. Rather, an MMOG should be launched when you feel you have enough content and features and balance to provide a compelling game to those players who are your target audience. Additionally, when planning an MMOG early on, now that we know they can be commercially viable for 5, maybe even 10 years, MMOG developers should also do as much as possible to architect their engine, tools, and content plans such that adding both features and content to the game post-launch is as easy as possible. We didn’t do the greatest job with EQ in this regard, because we had no idea it would last so many years. With Vanguard, however, we have features and content planned for at least 4-5 expansions already. And much of that planning was done at the high level very early on so when we architected our technology and tools, the coding was done keeping in mind not just what the game might be like, or look like, or play like at launch, but far after launch. Player controlled flying mounts is a great example. We already have them in from a technology standpoint – I can enter beta right now, mount a drake, and fly several km into the air and look down at our largest city with negligible fps impact. I can fly around, traverse the entire world, swoop up and down, etc.

Why won’t I commit to launching with player flying mounts then? Because such a feature requires more then the tech that is its foundation, but also justifies some cool game mechanics to accompany being able to fly about where you will, as well as some logical restrictions. And so that may be added post launch as a freebie or part of an expansion or any number of ways. So yes, under that scenario, we would be using subscription revenue to finish player driven flying mounts.

The key, however, is that we never promised player driven flying mounts as a component of Vanguard that would be available by launch. So an MMOG is not only done when there is enough content and features and balance to make a compelling and fun game for your target audience at launch, but also when you’ve done your best to manage expectations… have done your best to make sure the features you felt were truly necessary are indeed there at launch and that while you’ve talked about future features or content, that if you are unsure as to when they’ll realistically be ready, that you are up front with your future playerbase about those items well before launching the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
That's the whole point. It needs to stop. (In regards to a tremendous amount of bugs, or unfinished content rearing it's head on release day because the publisher decided to pull the trigger too soon to meet a fiscal quarterly goal)

If that is your goal, that MMOGs stop being pushed out the door too early, that publishers become aware of the dangers of doing this, that's fine. If you are also generally speaking out against MMOG designers who have in the past promised too much or not managed expectations, that's fine too.

What I don't get is the misinformation and the 'preemptive' strike on Vanguard. We've always been against rushing things, pro a long beta, being very upfront with the playerbase, big on managing expectations, open and up front about what might not make it in the game, etc.

Your general crusade against these things is one thing and in fact, I'm likely with you on much of the same crusade. But the attack and false accusations re: Vanguard, its beta, where things are at, predicting doom and gloom, asserting things would and would not make it in when you have no way of knowing anything of the sort, etc. is where you lose me and where I feel compelled to step in and expose the misinformation for what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome Eater
After all this defending, I do want to add one thing. If, by the time the NDA is lifted and the reports of reliable people start coming in, we hear that the game is not properly tested/content is still incomplete, and the game gets released anyway, I am flat out not going to refuse to buy it.

Fair enough

As for Froglocks, sorry man, no froggies in VG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neric
I'd say he is just wondering what you were doing for the last couple of years. My own expectation would have been similar, because I simply gave you credit for coming up with "something" and not trying to build the whole game "on the fly" during Beta. After years of "thinking" you finally came out of your shell and what do you have to show? A totally unfinished product that needs major tweaks in every single area. You should probably rename your Beta into Concept Stage Alpha 0.08.

You also don't seem to understand how MMOGs are built from the planning stage on up to prototype, beta, testing, and then release. Or, more likely, this is true and you're also trolling now that I've responded to this other person, excited by the possibility that a dev might finally respond to you directly.

In any case, we're not building the game on the fly during beta, we're tweaking it and using a beta for what it's for -- gathering data and feedback and making those tweaks using data that can only be obtained from people actually trying out systems, experiencing content, and testing the game (a fundamental truth about MMOGs since they are so complex and there are so many systems that must be tested at the same time by many people (a number that far exceeds what internal testing can accomodate) to see how they work with one another).

We don't need tweaks in 'every' area, and given how long we've been in development, we've certainly taken less time to get how far we have (of which you know very little, not working here, nor being a tester) relative to our competitors and for a lot less money too. Why? Because we've used our experience in the past making these games to be more efficient, to implement a production methodology that is iterative and that makes sense, and because we know what a beta is for and why a long period of beta testing as opposed to staying too long in a pure development phase and then rushing through a beta period at the very end, starting it later as opposed to earlier, is a far superior approach to MMOG game development in general.

As for NDAs which you apparently also don't understand as per your response to Oloh above, I'll leave it to him to try to explain to you if he, by some strange chance, is also in the mood to feed trolls like I am this evening

- Grym

(p.s. no froglocks in VG? /crytosleep)

Pantastic · March 2006

I was highly amused by the guy whining that the beta was buggy and he had a hard time finding groups, that he felt somehow ripped off. I don't think he knew what a beta actually is, since it's supposed to have bugs and design flaws - your job as a tester is to find them, it's not just 'play the game for free for a while'.

Iadien · April 2006

Brad commented about this, and said that he wasn't a lead designer, and that only Jeff Butler and himself were lead designers. Just thought I would throw that out there.

ste2000 · April 2006

The only lead designers in this game are Brad and Jeff.

The others are just well paid pawns in their chess board, so as long those 2 have the reins of the horse, I am happy with it.

BlackWhysper · April 2006

Whos cares lol, if they left it was probably for the better, they either were not up to bar with what Sigil wanted or they didnt want to work with them.....

angerr · April 2006

this guy was supposedly their main spell effect guy and was the same guy that did everquest's spell effects. i agree as long as jeff and brad are in charge i am fine but they need good programmers and designers to help them make a good game don't they?

i will be honest, the publicity that has come out about vanguard as of late does worry me.....especially now with the rumors of no pvp servers at launch. i am still confident that sigil will release a great game when it is ready, but i am a bit worried about certain aspects of the game that are in there now.

but again, these guys know what they are doing, and once they get more beta testers in there I'm sure they will get a much better idea on what will work and what will not.

but i do think, in order for this to be a great game they need the best most experienced designers in there....especially those that worked on eq1..... like the designer that they let go being talked about in this thread. ::::21::

Iadien · April 2006

Originally posted by angerr

this guy was supposedly their main spell effect guy and was the same guy that did everquest's spell effects. i agree as long as jeff and brad are in charge i am fine but they need good programmers and designers to help them make a good game don't they?
i will be honest, the publicity that has come out about vanguard as of late does worry me.....especially now with the rumors of no pvp servers at launch. i am still confident that sigil will release a great game when it is ready, but i am a bit worried about certain aspects of the game that are in there now.
but again, these guys know what they are doing, and once they get more beta testers in there I'm sure they will get a much better idea on what will work and what will not.
but i do think, in order for this to be a great game they need the best most experienced designers in there....especially those that worked on eq1..... like the designer that they let go being talked about in this thread.

He had nothing to do with Vanguard's spell effects, Brad made a post about this recently.

angerr · April 2006

Originally posted by Iadien

He had nothing to do with Vanguard's spell effects, Brad made a post about this recently.

thats kool, can you link me? ::::02::

Aradune · April 2006

Originally posted by angerr

Originally posted by Iadien

He had nothing to do with Vanguard's spell effects, Brad made a post about this recently.

thats kool, can you link me? ::::02::

I also believe we'll launch with at least one PvP server -- maybe more -- it's all relative to how many servers we launch with as a whole.

dunadurium · April 2006

Originally posted by Aradune
I also believe we'll launch with at least one PvP server -- maybe more -- it's all relative to how many servers we launch with as a whole.

thats great to hear Brad. If your still browsing, can you give any estimation as to how many people each server may support, or will this all be worked out in the next phases of beta?

~Dunadurium

angerr · April 2006

Originally posted by Aradune

Originally posted by angerr Originally posted by Iadien He had nothing to do with Vanguard's spell effects, Brad made a post about this recently.
thats kool, can you link me?
I also believe we'll launch with at least one PvP server -- maybe more -- it's all relative to how many servers we launch with as a whole.

right on man, i am happy again lol ::::20::

ste2000 · April 2006

To be fair on Brad, PVP wasn't even planned when he dreamed about Vanguard.

It is something he added to the project because in the official forums people asked about PVP, and because Sigil listen to their fanbase, unlike SoE and Blizzard, they will try to do their best to satisfy the PVPers.
But don't be disappointed, even if it will only be ready for the first expansion it will probably be a decent PVP, or do you prefer to have a really crap PVP ala EQ2 just to make you happy?
Sigil is basically redesigning the entire structure of the game to make PVP fair and fun to play, it isn't an easy thing to do.
I guess Vanguard PVE and Vanguard PVP will be 2 complete different games in term of game dynamics.
Sigil is not just going to switch on the PVP mode on their PVE game, they will try to adapt the PVE to the PVP, not the other way round.

What you are worried about guys?
You have the luck that Vanguard is developed by an hardcore MMORPG player, who basically is creating the game he wants to play, unlike some "professional" developers who don't even play their own game (SoE anyone?)
Will he fail?
Absolutely no.
Brad is the most experienced MMO designer, he has the support of Microsoft the biggest corporation in the world, and he has the best team you can get around.

You need to understand that his game is complex, it ain't straight forward like EQ2 or WoW, the road will be difficult, and we will lose people along the way.
This is normal in every business, as Mr Smedley pointed out in a recent post in another forum, kinda defending his ex employee.
SoE has lots of staff turnover, Brad himself left SoE to fund Sigil.
There was a time when Blizzard was losing lots of programmers who were poached by NCSoft.
But that's how business works, it is normal.

If Sigil fails, I'll go back to play offline games, since Vanguard is my last hope for me keep playing MMORPGs, I can't see any other developer around that will be able to create the game I want to play.
If there is one team that can pull it off that's Sigil, and no one else.
So keep the faith

Echorox · April 2006

Jesus, i feel like im running into the mighty Aradune everywhere. I know that when i get into the trolling message board mood, i can litteraly be on for hours without realizing the time reading each thread and responding when i think my opinion matters. It must be painfull trying to balance the urge to defend something you are so passionate about and yet not give away to much or appear to be pandering to the trolls. Obviously, you are only human, but I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be better not to be your own public spokesperson. So many of these people are just looking for a chink in your armor, a place to get in and annoy you, not because they care about your game, but because they are pathetic. So, when you respond even to defend, even when your post is informative, it almost gives credence to the troll that posted in the first place. Anyways, i salute ya for being human, and I can't say i'd do anything different if i were in your position. I'll personally be first in line to try out Vsoh.

Anofalye · April 2006

I honestly can't believe they are still catering to uber raiders to that point.

I honestly become a Game Designer over this raiding thingy.

May Bioware appeased my soul with the best MMO ever. Otherwise I guess I will have to eventually be part of a team which will do a good MMO. This is sooo unbelievable.

They are still catering to FoH, after everything, after all the "dear valued customers" they shaft to pleased to uber raiders.

I just can't believe it.

Amathe · April 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

I honestly can't believe they are still catering to uber raiders to that point.

There is a small cadre of people around Brad, all of whom, like him, believe that games should be designed based solely on the needs and wishes of people who play them with an extreme degree of devotion. From Brad's point of view, if you are not a hardcore player your only purpose for being in the game is to admire and be looked down upon by the people who are. You aren't supposed to have fun because fun is a right you have to earn. I simply can't buy into that notion.

In a recent interview, they had the gall to suggest that casual players should content themselves with being crafters, not adventurers. "Spit and polish there, Mr. L33t d00d? I am too insignificant to fight monsters but maybe I can shine that sword for you?" The arrogance is repulsive, and I refuse to buy a game where I feel insulted by the gamemaker before it even launches.

Iadien · April 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by Anofalye

I honestly can't believe they are still catering to uber raiders to that point.

There is a small cadre of people around Brad, all of whom, like him, believe that games should be designed based solely on the needs and wishes of people who play them with an extreme degree of devotion. From Brad's point of view, if you are not a hardcore player your only purpose for being in the game is to admire and be looked down upon by the people who are. You aren't supposed to have fun because fun is a right you have to earn. I simply can't buy into that notion.

In a recent interview, they had the gall to suggest that casual players should content themselves with being crafters, not adventurers. "Spit and polish there, Mr. L33t d00d? I am too insignificant to fight monsters but maybe I can shine that sword for you?" The arrogance is repulsive, and I refuse to buy a game where I feel insulted by the gamemaker before it even launches.

You definately should not be playing this game if you get insulted by reading an interview. lol They're all against you!

Nubaa · April 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

I honestly can't believe they are still catering to uber raiders to that point.

I honestly become a Game Designer over this raiding thingy.

May Bioware appeased my soul with the best MMO ever. Otherwise I guess I will have to eventually be part of a team which will do a good MMO. This is sooo unbelievable.

They are still catering to FoH, after everything, after all the "dear valued customers" they shaft to pleased to uber raiders.

I just can't believe it.

Way to go off on a rambling tangent there, bud. Did you even read that thread?

angerr · April 2006

Originally posted by Nubaa

Originally posted by Anofalye
I honestly can't believe they are still catering to uber raiders to that point.I honestly become a Game Designer over this raiding thingy.May Bioware appeased my soul with the best MMO ever. Otherwise I guess I will have to eventually be part of a team which will do a good MMO. This is sooo unbelievable.They are still catering to FoH, after everything, after all the "dear valued customers" they shaft to pleased to uber raiders.I just can't believe it.
Way to go off on a rambling tangent there, bud. Did you even read that thread?

he keeps saying the same thing in every post he makes, he actually thinks that there is more raiding content than any other in vanguard (read my Sig), witch has been stated by the Dev's time and time again that it is mostly small group oriented.

what, are they lying and there is actually a ton of hidden raid content that the Dev's arnt telling us about? is it some sort of diabolical scheme to trick all the semi casual "core" gamers into playing vanguard? ::::12::

i gave up trying to have a civilized debate with him because he just comes back with the same replies, or he says your opinion is "irrelevant" because you like to raid sometimes.

i mean, ano has made hundreds if not thousands of posts about how he does not like raiding and how any game is a "failure" if they cater to people that enjoy raiding.

ano, we know how you feel man....we have known like 1000 posts ago, why must you still troll these boards with the same argument over and over?

you don't see me on other boards spreading my vanguard fanboyism with 1000's of posts saying the same damn thing over and over again do you? give it a freaking rest!

Thrymer · April 2006

Hands angerr a 12 year old scotch “I feel you.”

ste2000 · April 2006

Anofalye the suggestion I give you is always the same: "Go and read the official forums before you post, because as usual you are misinformed"
The majority of content will be for groups, with raiding and solo almost equal, but even if it was 100% raiding, you need to understand that there is people who like raids, is it difficult to understand it or do you think that only people that like your kind game style deserve to play their own game?

Secondly, I will repeat this concept over again for those who still don't get it:
"This game is not for casual players and it will never be, so go and find another game, there is no need to be disappointed about a game that is not intendet to target people like you".

I don't mind people having a go at the game but the critics need to be in a "core" oriented context, I don't understand why casual gamers keep complaining about the game not being casual enough, if the game is not being designed for casual players in the first place.

"Oh I would like to drink Fanta, but I don't like it because it tastes orange, can we make it taste like Coca Cola?" - "Hell no, go and buy a bloody Coca Cola ffs"

Amathe · April 2006

Originally posted by ste2000
The majority of content will be for groups, with raiding and solo almost equal, but even if it was 100% raiding, you need to understand that there is people who like raids, is it difficult to understand it or do you think that only people that like your kind game style deserve to play their own game?

Lol. Someone has been drinking the Sigil CoolAid from the boards and can't read between the lines. If, as you claim, "raiding and solo are almost equal", then why aren't they saying in interviews (as they are about soloing) that people who like to raid probably won't enjoy the game? If they're about the same, why is one group being shooed away and not the other?

And if the game is directed to grouping, why wouldn't a casual player enjoy it? I know many thousands of casual players who like to group. Yet Sigil tells us casual players probably won't.

Then consider what is the difference between a "core" player and a "hardcore" one. Say the core player has 4 hours a night to play. What do you plan to spend those 4 hours doing? Oh, you want to go to certain dungeon? Your ability to do that will be a function of whether it is available for you to experience, depending on how many other people want to enjoy that same non-instanced content - same as EQ. Which means, same as EQ, that hardcore players, the ones with the time to wait for that kind of thing, are the ones who will be having the good times. You can't put in a game system that caters to hardcore players (and/or people with a ton of time on their hands to wait on content) and honestly say that your game is directed to core players.

And who exactly are the hardcore players in a world populated only by other hardcore players? It will be amusing to see the wheat separated from the chaff amongst so many people who all believe they are the "best." It will be even more amusing to see hardcore players who went searching for a game to escape the casuals discover that, relatively speaking, they are casuals.

Could it be ... ding ding ding ... that what is stated on the boards isn't fair or accurate?

But don't get me wrong. I LOVE the fact that Sigil is making Vanguard. If they can successfully attract all the self important gamers who thrive on believing they are better than everyone else and who think their cartoon is their virtual dick, the rest of the mmorpg world will be a better place for their absence. So please, don't let me discourage you if you feel that way! Play Vanguard. Play it to the exclusion of everything else.

angerr · April 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Lol. Someone has been drinking the Sigil CoolAid from the boards and can't read between the lines. If, as you claim, "raiding and solo are almost equal", then why aren't they saying in interviews (as they are about soloing) that people who like to raid probably won't enjoy the game? If they're about the same, why is one group being shooed away and not the other?

really? here is a recent quote from brad..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I am not being tricky with my words. Approximately 20% of adventuring content will be solo/casual oriented -- I was not only talking about diplomacy and crafting/harvesting.

And I've also fully acknowledged that we have problems with the viability of casual/solo content right now and that addressing this problem is a high priority.
http://www.silkyvenom.com/?page=devtracker&devid=4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am pretty confident you will not find a post where any Dev has said people that like to solo probably wont enjoy the game, in fact if you like i can dig up more quotes where they say just the opposite.

angerr · April 2006

BTW i love how ano derails yet another topic with his raiding BS he always posts, freaking trolls i swear! ::::07::

ste2000 · April 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by ste2000
The majority of content will be for groups, with raiding and solo almost equal, but even if it was 100% raiding, you need to understand that there is people who like raids, is it difficult to understand it or do you think that only people that like your kind game style deserve to play their own game?

Lol. Someone has been drinking the Sigil CoolAid from the boards and can't read between the lines. If, as you claim, "raiding and solo are almost equal", then why aren't they saying in interviews (as they are about soloing) that people who like to raid probably won't enjoy the game? If they're about the same, why is one group being shooed away and not the other?

And if the game is directed to grouping, why wouldn't a casual player enjoy it? I know many thousands of casual players who like to group. Yet Sigil tells us casual players probably won't.

Then consider what is the difference between a "core" player and a "hardcore" one. Say the core player has 4 hours a night to play. What do you plan to spend those 4 hours doing? Oh, you want to go to certain dungeon? Your ability to do that will be a function of whether it is available for you to experience, depending on how many other people want to enjoy that same non-instanced content - same as EQ. Which means, same as EQ, that hardcore players, the ones with the time to wait for that kind of thing, are the ones who will be having the good times. You can't put in a game system that caters to hardcore players (and/or people with a ton of time on their hands to wait on content) and honestly say that your game is directed to core players.

And who exactly are the hardcore players in a world populated only by other hardcore players? It will be amusing to see the wheat separated from the chaff amongst so many people who all believe they are the "best." It will be even more amusing to see hardcore players who went searching for a game to escape the casuals discover that, relatively speaking, they are casuals.

Could it be ... ding ding ding ... that what is stated on the boards isn't fair or accurate?

But don't get me wrong. I LOVE the fact that Sigil is making Vanguard. If they can successfully attract all the self important gamers who thrive on believing they are better than everyone else and who think their cartoon is their virtual dick, the rest of the mmorpg world will be a better place for their absence. So please, don't let me discourage you if you feel that way! Play Vanguard. Play it to the exclusion of everything else.

Sorry, but with all due respect........what the hell are you talking about?
I totally missed the point.

-Who said that Core and Hardcore are the same? Why are you trying to explain to me this concept?
As explained few times in those forum and thousands of time in the official Forums, camping won't be as bad as EQ and the world is so big that it should be enough content for everyone, so you won't see 5 guilds camping the same mob.
Time sink will be reduced considerably in Vanguard, therefore you don't need to be an hardcore player in order to enjoy this game.

-Raiders don't need reasurance because they don't moan as much as soloers, and won't be disappointed by Vanguard.
Soloers will probably be. That's why Sigil is warning that for pure soloers, probably the content won't be enough.
This way we will avoid crocodile's tears in the future.

-And how do you know that people who likes Vanguard has nothing else to do in their lives?
WTF do you know about that?

Ah probably you just wanted to pop in and teach us how to live our lives.
I am sure you are a jock, partying all the night long and sourrounded by beatiful Vixen all the times.

Hmmh naah........... maybe you are just one of those guys that like to spend all their time watching porn 12 hours a day and playing with their little willy, who feel the need to belittle someone else from time to time in order to make them feel alive.

Ok you are alive, now get back in your cavern, and refrain to patronise other people you don't know.

There are people who play WOW more than 6 hours a day and people who plays EQ max 3 hours a day and viceversa.
It s not the kind of game that decide how many hours you will stay online, but the individual who decide that.
Of course there are people addicted to MMORPG who will spend all of their time online, but that could happen in every game, either WOW, EQ or Vanguard.
Let's try not to generalize please, when you want to discuss with people in a forum try to stick with the arguments people are discussing, instead of playing the smartass.

SpiritofGame · April 2006

It's a law of MMORPGs that players will gravitate to where the big XP and uber loot is -- if that big XP and uber loot is at the bottom of raid dungeons, trust me, "the game" will be about RAIDING.

It will have nothing to do with percentages of solo, small group and raid content.

Solo players will be marginalized, small group content will be PUGs, and only uber guilds able to field a large number of players at one time will be the ones who will dominate "the game" and that game will be all about RAIDING.

As much as I admire Vanguard: Saga of Heroes I cannot help but feel that this will truly be a "forced grouping" game. That is not a bad thing, but it does mean there will be "a way" to play the game, sometimes known as the Golden Path. This suggests to me that the game will suffer from inflexibility.

This is particularly noted when the Devs respond to the concerns of casual or soloist players by saying they can "do crafting" while waiting on guild members to log on, regardless of the fact that players do NOT WANT to "do crafting" just because they cannot find a group or belong to a large guild.

Devs have already said that the best loot will be dropped in raid situations and that you will either need to raid to get it or buy it from those who have done the raiding. And that is "the way" the game will be played regardless of any percentages of solo, small group and raid content they make available.

This makes me sad because the attraction of Vanguard to me is in the vast seamless world available to explore and adventure in -- and trying to do this as a solo adventurer sounds as if you will be marginalized to a rather insignificant role in the gameworld.

Nor does solo adventuring mean that you never have social contacts in the game -- it simply means that your character is able to effectively engage in solo combat against one or more mobs without the necessity of being supported by several other classes of players.

Crafting and Harvesting, while interesting endeavors to some, is not likely to ever be a big draw in MMORPGs -- or else Horizons would have been a blockbuster, and it is most certainly not.

Nor does Diplomacy sound like a very intriguing game occupation even though it will become necessary to use to enter some (surprise, surprise) "raid" situations.

Well ... time will tell if this game delivers the excitment and complexity that many mature gamers are looking for. I really hope it does, but, just the same, I would not put all my eggs into the Vanguard basket.

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