Originally posted by bonds0097 I just read through ten pages of posts... for some odd reason I couldn't stop. I don't even play DDO. I bought it a few weeks ago and quickly dropped it when I realized how difficult it was to find a group due to tiny server population. I also despise the combat system, but my reasons for disliking DDO are irrelevant.I saw some very good debating on this thread. I'm a debater myself and I can't help but be captivated by a good thread. There were some very poor arguments and replies as well, but on the whole, I enjoyed the twenty minutes or so I spent reading this thread. Solumnus, I must say, you hold yourself very well. I like that you never stooped to personal insults and clearly distinguised between what was provable fact and what was your own opinion, providing relevant references whenever possible. You really stood out in this thread as a positive contributer.I apologize in advance if this post bothers you for whatever conceivable reason, I write merely because as someone who loves a good debate (not argument), I too would appreciate this sort of praise. Perhaps I'm an idiot, who knows.JB
Thank you very much for your comments, bonds0097. They are high praise indeed, and I do truly appreciate them.
I enjoy a good debate as well. I spend a lot of time reading these forums and only rarely (as you can tell by my post count) contribute to their content, when I feel as though a statement may be particularly inaccurate or misleading.
I know one thing for certain; trading insults with someone very rarely leads to constructive dialogue. I try as much as possible to avoid that, although I am not always successful. It's human nature to reply defensively when you are being attacked. Luckily, a written venue such as these forums gives me the chance to think out my reply and to try to construct it as logically as possible while cooling down if I feel that I have been personally attacked.
Thank you again for your compliments!
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
The fact that you even see the need to 'ridicule' me as you so put it is quite silly, but regardless, you're wrong.
Your arguments tends to veer from impassioned anger at those that disagree with you to absolute incoherence; therefore, your statement that I wouldn't recognize a good debate if I saw one isn't quite credible I'm afraid. Given the way you write and the manner in which you personally attack those who argue with you as well as blatantly ignoring the facts before you, your so-called maturity is certainly in question.
Solumnus' argument, which he clearly stated time and time again despite the fact that comprehension of the matter is something you never quite realized, was this:
Dungeons and Dragons, while being a group-oriented game (as you have tirelessly reminded us) has also contained solo gameplay since its inception in the seventies.
He does not claim that DnD was conceived as a solo game, merely that it always offered the possibility of solo play. The '4 mistakes' you cite (not citate) are pure fallacy. He did not do any of the things you accuse him of, though I daresay you're guilty of committing more than one.
You failed to understand this, post after post after post. You say that you read only a sentence or two of Solumnus' posts. I believe you. It's quite evident from the way you respond to him, or anyone else who disagrees with you for that matter, that you _don't_ read what others write, or that you read only that which you choose to see according to what supports your preconceived notions. If you somehow feel this makes you a good debater, I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken.
I only posted to begin with because I know how frustrating it is to hold a discussion with someone like you and I hoped to give him some encouragement. I'm sorry you felt the need to 'ridicule' me because of a post that clearly wasn't talking about you.
The fact that you even see the need to 'ridicule' me as you so put it is quite silly, but regardless, you're wrong.
Get over yourself. Your arguments tends to veer from impassioned anger at those that disagree with you to absolute incoherence; therefore, your statement that I wouldn't recognize a good debate if I saw one isn't quite credible I'm afraid.
I'm sorry, but when you did become judge of argument. Remember, son, your credible is the same mine and everyone else here, which is just you're just another posert making opinion. Don't think for a minute you can decide whose the good debate and who isn't. He does not claim that DnD was conceived as a solo game, merely that it always offered the possibility of solo play.
Actually, he did, I reposted the quoted (which he reposted again up above for us in a reply I didn't read.)
"The company he created to publish and market his game, DESIGNED, RAN and PLAYEDDungeons and Dragons modules based entirely on solo play, meaning one player.” - Somnulus
These three key words right here spell it out for you. If choose to ignore them or perceive them in different way (or take Somnulus's refute in consideration), then that is fine, but don't think for a minute what you say or think matters. You see me hailing myself as victor, yet you see the need to crown Somnulus better debater. Because you admire and hate people who insult others (including yourself) doesn’t give you the right declare a victor. Like I said, the reason I stopped arguing in places like gamefaqs.com because people act like Somnulus or yourself by agreeing to disagree. (Especially when insulted.) These days the messageboard is like highschool. That’s why I stop declaring the victor or victory because their never is one as it is a matter of perspective.
I may have insulted him, but it didn’t stopped me from pointing out Somnulus shortcomings on the subjects he argued. When it turned out Gary originated the solo play idea, I admitted I was wrong, but it was turned out Chainmail and the early sessions of DnD were group-oriented, did Somnulus admit he was wrong. Nope, he refuted ever saying DnD was originally be decide for one player adventures.
Lastly, don't think I'm looking for attention from you, like I said, you threw yourself in that compromising position.
Your arguments tends to veer from impassioned anger at those that disagree with you to absolute incoherence
Like I said how you perceive things, you doesn't matter. (Thank God) I throw insults to joust like "we" use to gamefaqs.com until the upstarts like yourself who starting making this dumbass defense by declaring the first person to insult the loser because guys like you alive. I only get pissed when you mock the arguement by being shameless or refuting your point. I never get pissed when insulted nor revolve my subjects around insults.
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by bonds0097
He does not claim that DnD was conceived as a solo game, merely that it always offered the possibility of solo play.
Actually, he did, I reposted the quoted (which he reposted again up above for us in a reply I didn't read.)
"The company he created to publish and market his game, DESIGNED, RAN and PLAYEDDungeons and Dragons modules based entirely on solo play, meaning one player.” - Somnulus These three key words right here spell it out for you. If choose to ignore them or perceive them in different way (or take Somnulus's refute in consideration), then that is fine.
It is you who is absolutely blind to the truth. You go so far as to emphasize certain words because you feel they help your case and so blatantly ignore the one word that completely destroys it.
modules.
Somnulus is saying that TSR designed solo _modules_ of the game. He didn't say the game was solo-oriented, he is saying that DnD was a group-oriented game that also offered solo gameplay, something he had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt despite whatever you may say.
In case you didn't catch it:
MODULES
Gary Gygax and TSR designed solo MODULES for the group-oriented game of Dungeons and Dragons.
That should help clear that up, or perhaps not given your track record. I'd love to see how you'll twist my words in an attempt to come out on on top.
Jesus Tap-dancing Christ...I didn't bother to read the rest of the post, but will you please stop making a bug deal out of this? We're trying to move along and get back on topic, yet you keep bring up this argument, which no one, but you three have agreed on. At least Ian is making an effort to get back on topic. Can you please set aside your ego so we can talk DDO about or do I have to ignore you too?
Anyway, I think DDO not doing to good and putting solo won't help to improve the game. Maybe it would be something to implement if they could reduce ways farmers could profit off the in-game material or powergame, but I think it would be best to steer clear of such content until there is some economic contorl. What do you guys think.
When i was running the campaign alone, the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk wree only 13 levels deep. On the 13th was Zagig himself--he observed what went on above, restocked, etc.LOL! Zagig did it solo, but before that session they were playing as a group. It was only 13 floors at the time.
Haha, that's cute.
Zagig is the owner of the dungeon you knob, not a player. You know, the bad guy, the mean person, the guy that everyone is trying to fight down to. Thats why "he" restocked the dungeon after the "players" cleared out certain levels.
Only 13 floors? Seriously you must not have any background in D&D at all.
Depending on how they mapped it each floor could be 10-1000 rooms each floor. Currently Gary is putting all of this castle into an adventure series and the series is 3-4 parts and each part comes in a 240 or so page hardbound book.
Not that it matters as to the size of the adventure really but the fact you keep trying to dodge the issue that they actually had people playing D&D solo back then, by the folks that made the game, just proves that you have no way to back up your claims.
Oh and btw Zagig was/is a diety of sorts incase you were wondering.
Originally posted by CaptainRPGWhen it turned out Gary originated the solo play idea, I admitted I was wrong, but it was turned out Chainmail and the early sessions of DnD were group-oriented, did Somnulus admit he was wrong. Nope, he refuted ever saying DnD was originally be decide for one player adventures.
CaptainRPG, the point was not, nor has it ever been, that Gary Gygax originated the idea or concept of solo play, which he didn't.
The point is that solo play has always been a part of Dungeons and Dragons PnP. My purpose in quoting Mr. Gygax was to illustrate that he, as co-creator of the game, his friends and literally thousands of other Dungeons and Dragons RPGers engaged in solo play, and that modules were designed and published for solo play.
In order to admit that I was wrong, I would actually have to be wrong. In this specific instance, I am not.
I'm sorry, but when you did become judge of argument. Remember, son, your credible is the same mine and everyone else here, which is just you're just another posert making opinion.
If bonds0097 has the same level of credibility as everyone else here, that also means that s/he has the same right to judge the credibility or validity of any argument or debate taking place, especially if we are all just posters with opinions.
These three key words right here spell it out for you. If choose to ignore them or perceive them in different way (or take Somnulus's refute in consideration), then that is fine, but don't think for a minute what you say or think matters.
Obviously, what bonds0097 says and thinks does matter or you wouldn't bother trying to refute or discredit it.
I throw insults to joust like "we" use to gamefaqs.com until the upstarts like yourself who starting making this dumbass defense by declaring the first person to insult the loser because guys like you alive. I only get pissed when you mock the arguement by being shameless or refuting your point. I never get pissed when insulted nor revolve my subjects around insults.
The issue isn't who insulted who. The issue is that on this particular subject, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. None. You have no experience in the area under discussion and all of the information you spit out comes from material that you don't read thoroughly enough to actually understand.
If you were insulting me AND you were correct, people may still think the insults were unecessary but at least you would be right. That simply isn't the case here.
I don't have to insult you to prove that you are ignorant of the subject. Every argument you provide shows it.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
Comments
Thank you very much for your comments, bonds0097. They are high praise indeed, and I do truly appreciate them.
I enjoy a good debate as well. I spend a lot of time reading these forums and only rarely (as you can tell by my post count) contribute to their content, when I feel as though a statement may be particularly inaccurate or misleading.
I know one thing for certain; trading insults with someone very rarely leads to constructive dialogue. I try as much as possible to avoid that, although I am not always successful. It's human nature to reply defensively when you are being attacked. Luckily, a written venue such as these forums gives me the chance to think out my reply and to try to construct it as logically as possible while cooling down if I feel that I have been personally attacked.
Thank you again for your compliments!
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
The fact that you even see the need to 'ridicule' me as you so put it is quite silly, but regardless, you're wrong.
Your arguments tends to veer from impassioned anger at those that disagree with you to absolute incoherence; therefore, your statement that I wouldn't recognize a good debate if I saw one isn't quite credible I'm afraid. Given the way you write and the manner in which you personally attack those who argue with you as well as blatantly ignoring the facts before you, your so-called maturity is certainly in question.
Solumnus' argument, which he clearly stated time and time again despite the fact that comprehension of the matter is something you never quite realized, was this:
Dungeons and Dragons, while being a group-oriented game (as you have tirelessly reminded us) has also contained solo gameplay since its inception in the seventies.
He does not claim that DnD was conceived as a solo game, merely that it always offered the possibility of solo play. The '4 mistakes' you cite (not citate) are pure fallacy. He did not do any of the things you accuse him of, though I daresay you're guilty of committing more than one.
You failed to understand this, post after post after post. You say that you read only a sentence or two of Solumnus' posts. I believe you. It's quite evident from the way you respond to him, or anyone else who disagrees with you for that matter, that you _don't_ read what others write, or that you read only that which you choose to see according to what supports your preconceived notions. If you somehow feel this makes you a good debater, I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken.
I only posted to begin with because I know how frustrating it is to hold a discussion with someone like you and I hoped to give him some encouragement. I'm sorry you felt the need to 'ridicule' me because of a post that clearly wasn't talking about you.
JB
Your arguments tends to veer from impassioned anger at those that disagree with you to absolute incoherence
Like I said how you perceive things, you doesn't matter. (Thank God) I throw insults to joust like "we" use to gamefaqs.com until the upstarts like yourself who starting making this dumbass defense by declaring the first person to insult the loser because guys like you alive. I only get pissed when you mock the arguement by being shameless or refuting your point. I never get pissed when insulted nor revolve my subjects around insults.
It is you who is absolutely blind to the truth. You go so far as to emphasize certain words because you feel they help your case and so blatantly ignore the one word that completely destroys it.
modules.
Somnulus is saying that TSR designed solo _modules_ of the game. He didn't say the game was solo-oriented, he is saying that DnD was a group-oriented game that also offered solo gameplay, something he had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt despite whatever you may say.
In case you didn't catch it:
MODULES
Gary Gygax and TSR designed solo MODULES for the group-oriented game of Dungeons and Dragons.
That should help clear that up, or perhaps not given your track record. I'd love to see how you'll twist my words in an attempt to come out on on top.
I can only assume you know what a DnD module is.
JB
Zagig is the owner of the dungeon you knob, not a player. You know, the bad guy, the mean person, the guy that everyone is trying to fight down to. Thats why "he" restocked the dungeon after the "players" cleared out certain levels.
Only 13 floors? Seriously you must not have any background in D&D at all.
Depending on how they mapped it each floor could be 10-1000 rooms each floor. Currently Gary is putting all of this castle into an adventure series and the series is 3-4 parts and each part comes in a 240 or so page hardbound book.
Not that it matters as to the size of the adventure really but the fact you keep trying to dodge the issue that they actually had people playing D&D solo back then, by the folks that made the game, just proves that you have no way to back up your claims.
Oh and btw Zagig was/is a diety of sorts incase you were wondering.
Cheers.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
CaptainRPG, the point was not, nor has it ever been, that Gary Gygax originated the idea or concept of solo play, which he didn't.
The point is that solo play has always been a part of Dungeons and Dragons PnP. My purpose in quoting Mr. Gygax was to illustrate that he, as co-creator of the game, his friends and literally thousands of other Dungeons and Dragons RPGers engaged in solo play, and that modules were designed and published for solo play.
In order to admit that I was wrong, I would actually have to be wrong. In this specific instance, I am not.
If bonds0097 has the same level of credibility as everyone else here, that also means that s/he has the same right to judge the credibility or validity of any argument or debate taking place, especially if we are all just posters with opinions.
Obviously, what bonds0097 says and thinks does matter or you wouldn't bother trying to refute or discredit it.
The issue isn't who insulted who. The issue is that on this particular subject, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. None. You have no experience in the area under discussion and all of the information you spit out comes from material that you don't read thoroughly enough to actually understand.
If you were insulting me AND you were correct, people may still think the insults were unecessary but at least you would be right. That simply isn't the case here.
I don't have to insult you to prove that you are ignorant of the subject. Every argument you provide shows it.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes