ummm I was kind mixed up what I posted on different forums.
Obivously I noticed the only suggestions I posted here are PvE, combat sytsem, and 3d glasses.
The entire picture of my idea of a perfect game is far from having only above elements. It also include detailed pvp/war system nobody ever come close to it from what I see, and character customization system, ingame games, etc.
I think I might make a new thread just for a complete show off all my ideas of what a perfect game should be...later.
All I can say is that I am upset to anyone who is upset about my messages on the subject, and about what was perhaps a poor choice of words. I use "Oriental" and "Asian" interchangably when speaking in generalities.
That said, as I said from the beginning I am speaking from experience. As far as my opinions being marginalized, well, let's not forget we are talking about gaming here and what I'm talking about isn't exactly something that is unique to me. There has been a *LOT* said about the issue of asians in MMOs and their influance on them. The point about grinding, well I'm repeting pretty much what a few game developers have said about marketing. Notice that one of the first questions asked when it comes to a lot of new games involves whether or not American, European, and Asian servers will be segregated from each other. I'm actually going out of my way to try and be polite compared to some of the things I've seen said on the subject already since I don't agree with everything I've seen said on the subject. I'm merely trying to point to the issue as being one of the factors when it comes to PVE development. I'm not exactly suave, so my apologies if this all came accross the wrong way, as I was sure it was going to.
Criticizing someone's "real world" experience in a conversation about games is not wise. After all it's liable to degenerate into politics (more so that a few things already have) and then it will get nasty, and problems will start. That wasn't really the intent here, even though I knew this was a touchy thing to mention.
At any rate I am sorry to anyone who I offended, and I realize many people are going to label me as ignorant (on this subject at least) but I feel it's a big enough issue to have mentioned. As far as empirical evidence, well I haven't been going out of my way to collect any, but I figure if I started and came back in a few weeks/months and crossposted a bunch of messages and captures from various games where the subject was discussed it would get very nasty as many of the 'sources' are not polite and I would be seen as supporting their views in their entirety as opposed to simply accepting the existance of issues that affect games in general.
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As far as the idea of getting EVERYONE in the MMO community to play a game I don't think that is going to happen. Think of it this way, in this thread a alone people have rushed out to say that WoW is a cruddy game and "it primarly attracts people new to MMOs". This is not in the least true as I myself happen to think it's the best game out there and represents the standard by which further games will be judged and I was stupidly experienced when it comes to MMOs before it's release (although I admit I played EQ II first and left due to the "Station Exchange" before going to WoW which I genuinely believe is the superior game). By the same token most of the people I "hang out" with in WoW are also a more experienced crowd. The name helped to begin with, but a name is not going to net a game 5 million subscribers. Look at DDO, while some people like it, the game does not seem to be a smashing success, people who went to it because it was "D&D" (a name with a lot of connotations, including a history of fairly good computer games in a number of generes) and a lot of them left VERY disappointed.
The point here is not to defend WoW, but to point out that tastes vary to the degree that even such a dream game would not appeal to everyone or attract the entirty of 20 million gaming enthusiasts, assuming there are even that many. Consider that a lot of people are subscribed to more than one game. While I am only set for CoH/CoV at the moment I've in the past dabbled with 2-3 MMOs at one time. Given my pre-order of Auto Assault I'll probably be juggling that game with CoH/CoV for a while and then who knows what is going to happen when the WoW expansion comes out since that is what I am killing time towards.
Depending on what kind of solid info I collect, I may or may not go back to WoW at the same time I am doing CoH/CoV simply to grind some gold if it seems like a worthwhile project. One of the reasons I've been hanging out on MMORPG.Com today is trying to find out the specifics of the latest WoW update and how much gold (exactly) you get for quests after level 60 now and whether or not my sole level 60 character will get anything retroactively for all the quests I "wasted" while biding my time.
Originally posted by Therumancer At any rate I am sorry to anyone who I offended, and I realize many people are going to label me as ignorant (on this subject at least) but I feel it's a big enough issue to have mentioned. As far as empirical evidence, well I haven't been going out of my way to collect any, but I figure if I started and came back in a few weeks/months and crossposted a bunch of messages and captures from various games where the subject was discussed it would get very nasty as many of the 'sources' are not polite and I would be seen as supporting their views in their entirety as opposed to simply accepting the existance of issues that affect games in general. - >>>----Therumancer--->
apology accepted as far as i'm concerned...i think if you pointed to the race plus the socioeconomic group...eg chinese farmers then you wouldnt have gotten the same negative response...it would be like judging Americans by the people that live in impoverished conditions such as shelters or slums.
btw many farmers are actually quite clever...they often run several programs at once and are decent at pvp as well...not all of them of course, but when you do something as your profession you are bound to gain some competence at it
empirical evidence would be like controlled experiments showing a particular groups abilities to solve complicated puzzles and problems...if i'm not mistaken Asians tend to be overrepresented in areas like math and science that require this type of thought...but i will hesitate to assert this as i also haven't actually collected data on the subject...a collection of posts by other amateurs wouldn't qualify as this type of evidence
anyway i hate political correctness so i'm not telling you not to give your honest opinions should you feel this way...i'm just saying cite some sources such as paper written by a phd on the subject rather than referring to the second hand information of gamers that may or may not have legitmate competence to make such judgments
Originally posted by Jazia I'd also like to explain my idea of "real quest" in more details. For example, If I take a quest to act as a detective in a murder case, the quest npc tells me that he suspious the boss of the bar on this case, and it asks me to check out the bar while being undercover and look for anyone who talks to the bar boss. So I go all the way to the bar, and sit there protend to be a customer, while keep eyes on the boss. Then there spawned a "customer" walked into the bar and talked to the boss of the bar in private, then both of them walked out with the stranger having a bag from the boss. So I can either sit there fail the quest because of nothing will happen, or follow the newly respawned stranger who just talked to the boss. And I follow the stranger across the town(anything can happen depend on your own action), if you walk too close the target will start to run or turn around try to kill you when reach some corner of the street without anyone else. Or there can randomly respawn some gangsters(buddy of this stranger) at anywhere where it is suitable try to kill you while let the stranger to get away......many random possibilities that is depend on your action or might be just being random. You can be a perfect follower and keep following the stranger to a new building, and watch him having secret conversation with some other newly spawned npc, etc. etc.
I hope you get the idea lol. We need REAL quests that are fun, and have many many random possibilities for each situation(situations that made by your own action), and npcs that for you to fight can be spawned near you randomly(random time, random location) depend on the situations created by yourself. (also I think it would be fun if let players to fill in as the bad guys of the quest when there are players registered for the opposite side of the same quest)
Or for example another quest, You arrived in a village, someone told you there is a tiger in the woods near the village that eats people. The npc tells you the direction, but nobody knows the exactly location. So you go into the woods, and there will spawn some "signs" such as footprint, tiger hairs or waste near you, if you don't notice then you have to spend longer time on searching. If you noticed, and follow the right direction of these "signs", soon tiger will be randomly spawn near you, it can be that the tiger is there and wasn't expecting you, or it can suddenly jump out of no where sneak attack on you. Well it's a random roll of possibilities depend on random situations. Key point, no fixed spawn spot. Basicly the idea is to have many programmed "solutions" for each situation that players create. Most quest mobs don't respawn at fixed locations. Instead, it is like you are carrying the spawn point of mobs with you, but nothing will spawn until certain conditions/situations is met. Also of course the World needs to have thousands of this kind of REAL interesting quests, combine with the static dungeons/mob strongholds just like on Aventia of NWN, and in come case random habit mobs can be randomly spawned near players who are walking on a trip anywhere any time. Plus the open PvP and castle siege such as L2's, And of course this will require very big world, and realistic complex cities and buildings, etc. Wouldn't mind to have a world that have 5000 miles distance between 2 sides, or actually having a round planet that kind of size for people being able to travel around the world in circle but takes months and months if not years. also in the case of actual combat, I'd rather having a combat system that players actually control each blow like Street Fighter etc. type of fighting game, so it actually require certain "skills" to do well in combat not just character stats. And would be nice to have 3D glasses to allow players see things in first person mode, and move around the head to see things around/behind you instead of point and move with mouse. While having ingame voice chat implanted, I bet this kind of game will be like a dream to most people. (btw, it's really not that hard to have fun story based real quests. Just hire 100 people go through story books, history books, novels, police files in some cases, movies, etc. and make them come up with 1 good story per day for 1 year, you'll have 36,500 quests right there after having some kind of "movie director" to make dramatic details for each story, You will get a bunch of interesting stories/quests! Of course still need programmers to code them)
Hello there.
Your idea about quests is pretty interesting and i can see something like that already was creeping in the industry, but for some reason, never materialized. SWG was supposed to have "points of interests" that would randomly happens on the player (or be triggered when you do something or be somewhere) and they would work more or less like you said.
One of the examples Raph Koster gave was that as you are walking in the desert ot Tattoine, you spot a wounded woman runnin toward you, she approaches you and tell you her story about being chased by stormtroopers, and, soon enough, a patrol of said troopers appears on the horizon. what you do? give up the woman to the troopers than then could hire you to find out another filthy rebel hiding nearby OR you defend the woman and defeat the stormtrooper that could lead to the woman asking you to escort her to Mos Esley to meet with a certain smuggler than can bring her away from here.
The thing never made it in the game, no one knows exactly why....
Your other ideas, however, are not so good.
Having a 5000 miles world is a bad idea. How many players you need to populate such a big world? you guessed it: 6 billions.
Making big worlds in general means having lots of players on a single server. Can the hardware keep up with the numbers? Not at the moment nor in the forseeable future.
A street fighter combat system? Well this is, i think, a preference thing. Personally if i buy a RPG, i prefer it having a rpg combat system.
About the 3d glasses... sounds good enough, but i always play in 3rd person mode also i am doubtful about voice chat, how you are gonna filter out the various channels? if you don't you would have /general overwriting basically anything else said, if you filter it out you have no idea what the others are saying. I think voice chat can works, but only for party or maybe Guild chats, that is where it is the most useful. Also hearing the burly 300 lbs barbarian of muscles and steel speaking with a 9-year old girl voice kinda destroy immersion as fast as a 300 lb hammer on your car's glass.
About the 10000 programmers thing, the problem is not in the numbers but in teamwork. You can't just hire loads of people, put them together in a room and expect them to compose a shakespeare play, the 10000 people are prolly much bad than good. you need a team that is used to work together, can divide work efficiently and so on... not an easy task at all and it does not get any easier the more people you have. Same for graphic artists and musicians.
The quest ideas are very valid, however, keep it up
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Comments
ummm I was kind mixed up what I posted on different forums.
Obivously I noticed the only suggestions I posted here are PvE, combat sytsem, and 3d glasses.
The entire picture of my idea of a perfect game is far from having only above elements. It also include detailed pvp/war system nobody ever come close to it from what I see, and character customization system, ingame games, etc.
I think I might make a new thread just for a complete show off all my ideas of what a perfect game should be...later.
All I can say is that I am upset to anyone who is upset about my messages on the subject, and about what was perhaps a poor choice of words. I use "Oriental" and "Asian" interchangably when speaking in generalities.
That said, as I said from the beginning I am speaking from experience. As far as my opinions being marginalized, well, let's not forget we are talking about gaming here and what I'm talking about isn't exactly something that is unique to me. There has been a *LOT* said about the issue of asians in MMOs and their influance on them. The point about grinding, well I'm repeting pretty much what a few game developers have said about marketing. Notice that one of the first questions asked when it comes to a lot of new games involves whether or not American, European, and Asian servers will be segregated from each other. I'm actually going out of my way to try and be polite compared to some of the things I've seen said on the subject already since I don't agree with everything I've seen said on the subject. I'm merely trying to point to the issue as being one of the factors when it comes to PVE development. I'm not exactly suave, so my apologies if this all came accross the wrong way, as I was sure it was going to.
Criticizing someone's "real world" experience in a conversation about games is not wise. After all it's liable to degenerate into politics (more so that a few things already have) and then it will get nasty, and problems will start. That wasn't really the intent here, even though I knew this was a touchy thing to mention.
At any rate I am sorry to anyone who I offended, and I realize many people are going to label me as ignorant (on this subject at least) but I feel it's a big enough issue to have mentioned. As far as empirical evidence, well I haven't been going out of my way to collect any, but I figure if I started and came back in a few weeks/months and crossposted a bunch of messages and captures from various games where the subject was discussed it would get very nasty as many of the 'sources' are not polite and I would be seen as supporting their views in their entirety as opposed to simply accepting the existance of issues that affect games in general.
-
As far as the idea of getting EVERYONE in the MMO community to play a game I don't think that is going to happen. Think of it this way, in this thread a alone people have rushed out to say that WoW is a cruddy game and "it primarly attracts people new to MMOs". This is not in the least true as I myself happen to think it's the best game out there and represents the standard by which further games will be judged and I was stupidly experienced when it comes to MMOs before it's release (although I admit I played EQ II first and left due to the "Station Exchange" before going to WoW which I genuinely believe is the superior game). By the same token most of the people I "hang out" with in WoW are also a more experienced crowd. The name helped to begin with, but a name is not going to net a game 5 million subscribers. Look at DDO, while some people like it, the game does not seem to be a smashing success, people who went to it because it was "D&D" (a name with a lot of connotations, including a history of fairly good computer games in a number of generes) and a lot of them left VERY disappointed.
The point here is not to defend WoW, but to point out that tastes vary to the degree that even such a dream game would not appeal to everyone or attract the entirty of 20 million gaming enthusiasts, assuming there are even that many. Consider that a lot of people are subscribed to more than one game. While I am only set for CoH/CoV at the moment I've in the past dabbled with 2-3 MMOs at one time. Given my pre-order of Auto Assault I'll probably be juggling that game with CoH/CoV for a while and then who knows what is going to happen when the WoW expansion comes out since that is what I am killing time towards.
Depending on what kind of solid info I collect, I may or may not go back to WoW at the same time I am doing CoH/CoV simply to grind some gold if it seems like a worthwhile project. One of the reasons I've been hanging out on MMORPG.Com today is trying to find out the specifics of the latest WoW update and how much gold (exactly) you get for quests after level 60 now and whether or not my sole level 60 character will get anything retroactively for all the quests I "wasted" while biding my time.
>>>----Therumancer--->
btw many farmers are actually quite clever...they often run several programs at once and are decent at pvp as well...not all of them of course, but when you do something as your profession you are bound to gain some competence at it
empirical evidence would be like controlled experiments showing a particular groups abilities to solve complicated puzzles and problems...if i'm not mistaken Asians tend to be overrepresented in areas like math and science that require this type of thought...but i will hesitate to assert this as i also haven't actually collected data on the subject...a collection of posts by other amateurs wouldn't qualify as this type of evidence
anyway i hate political correctness so i'm not telling you not to give your honest opinions should you feel this way...i'm just saying cite some sources such as paper written by a phd on the subject rather than referring to the second hand information of gamers that may or may not have legitmate competence to make such judgments
Hello there.
Your idea about quests is pretty interesting and i can see something like that already was creeping in the industry, but for some reason, never materialized. SWG was supposed to have "points of interests" that would randomly happens on the player (or be triggered when you do something or be somewhere) and they would work more or less like you said.
One of the examples Raph Koster gave was that as you are walking in the desert ot Tattoine, you spot a wounded woman runnin toward you, she approaches you and tell you her story about being chased by stormtroopers, and, soon enough, a patrol of said troopers appears on the horizon. what you do? give up the woman to the troopers than then could hire you to find out another filthy rebel hiding nearby OR you defend the woman and defeat the stormtrooper that could lead to the woman asking you to escort her to Mos Esley to meet with a certain smuggler than can bring her away from here.
The thing never made it in the game, no one knows exactly why....
Your other ideas, however, are not so good.
Having a 5000 miles world is a bad idea. How many players you need to populate such a big world? you guessed it: 6 billions.
Making big worlds in general means having lots of players on a single server. Can the hardware keep up with the numbers? Not at the moment nor in the forseeable future.
A street fighter combat system? Well this is, i think, a preference thing. Personally if i buy a RPG, i prefer it having a rpg combat system.
About the 3d glasses... sounds good enough, but i always play in 3rd person mode
also i am doubtful about voice chat, how you are gonna filter out the various channels? if you don't you would have /general overwriting basically anything else said, if you filter it out you have no idea what the others are saying. I think voice chat can works, but only for party or maybe Guild chats, that is where it is the most useful. Also hearing the burly 300 lbs barbarian of muscles and steel speaking with a 9-year old girl voice kinda destroy immersion as fast as a 300 lb hammer on your car's glass.
About the 10000 programmers thing, the problem is not in the numbers but in teamwork. You can't just hire loads of people, put them together in a room and expect them to compose a shakespeare play, the 10000 people are prolly much bad than good. you need a team that is used to work together, can divide work efficiently and so on... not an easy task at all and it does not get any easier the more people you have. Same for graphic artists and musicians.
The quest ideas are very valid, however, keep it up
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"