Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
MMO based on balance instead of grind & level?
DX_Intruder
Member Posts: 65
is there such an mmo? one that does include character advancement, but focuses on balance instead of making yourself better than everyone else through hours of bashing monsters?
the things I love about mmos are:
- the massive size. you can wander around wherever you like.. encounter other people or enemies, find stuff, or just wander aimlessly and be immersed in the environment and the cool weather effects. even the huge maps of battlefield 2 are no comparison for the enormous worlds of most mmos.
- the ability to be unique. unlike online fighting games like counter-strike, in mmos you can choose from a bunch of permanent characteristics, sex, eye color, build, tattoos/scars, etc, as well as the temporary elements like clothing. characters look tons more unique in mmos.
- the huge variety of bodyarmor, weaponry, items, accessories, etc. when there's so much equipment, there's always something new to try out, which is fun. this gun fires fast but is inaccurate and does low damage, but this gun I just found does more damage with a slow fire rate, etc.
- "class" difference. I don't really like the idea of "set classes", I think you should be able to do what you want to do (for example, if you start out with "all sword skill", I think you should still be able to pick up a bow later and use it, increasing your bow skill, but also deteriorating your previous sword skill. either way, some type of class differentiation is great. this guy can bash everything in close combat but is useless in longrange combat. this guy can hack terminals and remotely control mechs, but is fodder in "normal" combat. this guy can heal others and himself but is somewhat weak in combat. I think classes that help each other using teamwork is awesome and certainly fun.
- the monthly fees! I love.. well nevermind 
- the variety of choices. in most mmos, you can pretty much do whatever you want. you aren't forced to go and kill the other team in a certain time limit. you can go out and bash spiders, or climb that huge mountain outside of town, or explore a cave, or find a job from an npc or other player, etc. in a good mmo, there's always something to do.
--------
but... most mmos aren't like this. huge world size? yes. ability to be unique? yes.
class difference and the variety of choices is where I think the problems appear.
there are always some type of class difference in mmos, but I think they are often poorly executed, because of levels. with extreme level gaps, class differences often become meaningless. one example, planetside, you rank up and rank up, suddenly you can pretty much do anything. you can repair your own armor, and heal yourself, use a stealth suit, and hell why not, operate aircrafts and mechs. if you can just rank up and do everything yourself, then where does the teamwork go? another example.. this applies to pretty much any fantasy mmo. let's say there's a "level 1" archer and a "level 20" sword guy, who are enemies. archer sees swordguy walking down a path, crouches in a bush and shoots an arrow at him... and does 8 out of 60 hp damage. sword guy, being a decent level, casts a low level heal spell and a low level deflector spell on himself while running toward the archer. archer keeps shooting doing low damage. swordguy is healing himself as he dashes. swordguy bashes archer and kills him in 2 hits. I find this to be ridiculous. in the same sense, level 1 knifeguy sneaks up on level 20 magicguy and stabs him in the back of the neck. doing 15 out of 50 damage. magicguy turns around, casts heal and shield on himself instantly restoring his lost HP. knifeguy stabs again and does only 3 damage this time because of the shield spell. magicguy laughs like a maniac, as he nukes knifeguy with a fireball, killing him in one hit.
this leads to the "variety of choices" problem. how is it a problem? well, while you're eating and sleeping and going to class, everyone logged on to the mmo is bashing monsters, levelling up, and gaining that much more of a false advantage over you. I thought games were supposed to be about having fun and testing your skill, not claiming ownage over another human player because you spent more time killing computer-controlled monsters. now you have less choices when you log on if you think about it..... everyone else is repeatedly killing stuff to level up, they'll be able to kill you in one hit, so your only choice is to bash monsters too. exploring, talking to people, finding small jobs, is fun, but once a higher level comes along and kills you in one hit and steals your money, you realize all that stuff was just kind of a waste of time -- should have been levelling. you HAVE to go out and bash rats and level.
----
I'm not saying everyone should die in one hit, and I'm not saying there should be no "grind". I think you should be able to do things, like craft, swordfight, archery, build mechs, repair bodyarmor, snipe, etc, and you should be able to improve your efficiency of those things by doing them more and more (do a little more damage and swing your sword faster, repair armor a little faster than you did before, etc), but I don't think it should be out of hand. a 'sniper class' that just started the game shouldn't be utterly useless compared to a sniper class that has played for a year, although the 1 year player should have a decent advantage.
A great example of getting "a decent advantage" I think is from Battlefield 2. there's a class that uses light machine guns called Support. the default LMGs are extremely inaccurate, low damage, but have extremely high fire rates. they're great for camping in close quarters areas. when you rank up a couple of times, you could choose to unlock the unlockable LMG, called the PKM. the PKM is more accurate, does more damage, but fires about 3x slower, so this gun is better in medium-long range fights. a default LMG can still beat a PKM in a medium-long range fight, but the PKM has an advantage.
----
I first tried Neocron which turned out to be a normal mmorpg (diablo-style attack system click-on-your-enemy) disguised as an FPS. You can't just aim at something and shoot, you have to establish a "lock" by aiming at them for a certain amount of time, and then all of the bullets in your burst automatically hit your target (even if you aim away really quick).
I tried Endless Ages to find it was extremely imbalanced combat-wise and a huge level grind, although it has better FPS code than neocron, but the worst tradeskilling code of any game I've ever seen. Tradeskilling = macroing and leaving your pc in endless ages.
I then tried Planetside, which has the best FPS code so far, but is just a big level grind. All of the people who have played for years have all the mechs and tanks which kill infantry in one hit. So you have to slowly kill infantry until you can use those mechs and tanks to kill other "newbies" in one hit.
----
It's just that I don't feel like playing a game if there is 0% of me being able to fight back against a player. I would rather be able to learn an enemy's pattern, and figure out a strategy to finally beat that guy that killed me 3 times in a row, instead of saying, "oh, darn, he's 30 levels above me. guess i'll have to run away and gain 30 levels and try again in half a year."
Is there any mmo that exists that doesn't have the problems that I described? If not, does anyone agree with my ideas? or do most of you enjoy the level-based style of pvp? mmo suggestions and/or thoughts welcomed.. thanks for reading 
Comments
I ask myself those same questions everyday, unfortunately the horrid truth is there are no MMOs at this time like that, but there are enough games to look forward too, ye just have to grit your teeth and wait.
I have to disagree with you about Planetside being a level grind though. First off, it doesn't have levels or increased stats. This means no one can get stronger than anyone else from playing for longer. Certifications though are for everyone, it only takes 3 points to get the main assault tank. Being higher battle rank only means you have access to more things at once, not things that newbs can't have. Advancing through these ranks doesn't take that long, once you reach about br 10 you can have heal, repair, re-enforced armour, a decent selection of weapons and maybe a vehicle. That said, everything has it's weaknessess. You can't expect to not be shot when wondering about outside with enemy tanks. As with mechs, they are a bit of a grind and quite a few people don't like them, but i'll give you a hint: use a jammer grenade and their shields will be tempararily disabaled, that's how most people deal with them. They also take up a lot of cert points so not that many vets bother.
It sounds like you tried the trial and had a bad experience. People are only good in that game because they think about the situation and what's the best course of action. imo it's the only 'fair' MMO for anyone that doesn't like stat busters, unfortunately the learning curve is much bigger than standard FPS' and it's all about being in the right place at the right time.
I just think you should have to choose between implants, not be able to get practically all of them by ranking up. same with classes, I believe there should be vehicle drivers who are weak in combat (only shotguns maybe?), and snipers weak in close range, tank-like classes weak in speed/agility (MAX suits, except those things can fly, wth?). but there should still be customization and freedom... this can be accomplished
Anyway sorry I'm going off-topic, PS is fun for a little bit but it's not for me. Losing a base means nothing, it doesn't affect you in any way.. gaining one means nothing, I dunno, it feels empty to me
anyway..
Yeah, I know what you're looking for. Unfortunately, all the potential is scattered into a variety of MMOs, all saddled with so many weaknesses that they collectively suck.
Guild Wars had a wonderful skill system, and I can only wonder how much more fun it might be if they were to make a real MMO with hundreds of skills available AT ALL TIMES.
SWG and EVE managed some impressive player-run economies. But SWG died, and EVE (which I'm currently trying out... for the second time) is the most fun when you're not actually playing, but planning, mixing, matching, inventing e.t.c.
EVE managed an INCREDIBLE pvp setup, but it can't be found in any other game currently released right now... except the rapidly dying Shadowbane, which was also mind-numbingly boring, and had other notable shortcomings, such as a lack of anything in the world, a terrible grapic/interface arrangement and a horrible plague of cookie-cuttering.
What you're looking for a is a game with an EVE Online/SWG economy, with EVE-like politics and player run open PVP, combat with Guild Wars-like skill complexity and breadth, with equipment as nuanced as EVEs, only with the twitchy, simple-but-visceral feel managed sometimes by WoW or Diablo 2 at their best. While you're dreaming it would also be nice to have the kind of player-driven customization available in a more polished version of Morrowind or Ryzom's attempts to let you create your own skills and spells. All of this would have to come packaged in a game engine of unparallelled flexibility, allowing for the gameworld to be added to as readily as Neverwinter Nights, but without the tiling system that made everything look the same in that game.
The game engine would also benefit from being relatively low-tech in some ways, eschewing various graphical bells and whistles allowing for as much simultaneous gameplay flexibility as possible, allowing for a list of possibilites including, but not limited to: climbing, jumping, swimming, flying, simple terrain deformation, destructible materials (windows, foliage, specific wall and vegetation types), manipulation of objects, collision detection, vehicles, real stealth/darkness, constructable buildings e.t.c.
All of these features have been pulled off in various different games, not all of them MMOs, and while I don't believe it's anywhere near possible to do a good job in making all of these things possible in the same engine, it would certainly be worth a try.
But in answer to your original question, NO, no such game exists, or is even on the horizon really... though some notable upcoming games are talking vaguely about implementing some of these things in limited ways.
haha, when you listed all the elements the game would need, you make it sound so impossible.. but i suppose it might be.. well not impossible, but just not even attempted.
-
it's just like, I love player vs player combat too much, to be able to partake in what is referred to as "PvP" in mmos. (lol, in fact, the moment an ADMIN in the Endless Ages forum posted to my friend that noob ganking was "PvP", was the moment my friend and I stopped playing that game forever)
Take counter-strike for example.. when did the early versions of cs come out, like 2000? according to Xfire's website, CS 1.6 and counter-strike: source are among the current top 5 most played online games. in some ways there are classes in counter-strike. if you pick a sniper rifle, you're a sniper class for that round pretty much. you have an advantage in long range areas, and a disadvantage in close quarters. someone with an HKMP5 is just the opposite. that's fun, even in it's tiny arenas. so why not add all the content of mmos and maintain the "class balance"? (and it wouldn't have to be counter-terrorists vs terrorists with M4s and AKs. it could be knights and wizards or space marines and mech pilots fighting each other.. as long as the PvP is fun, addicting, and fair.)
oh well, I supposed game companies are lacking a pair of you know what to attempt something like this..
..hmm, Haladar, you mentioned a good skill system in Guild Wars. is it only a good skill system once your character is capped? (like, right now you only get level 1 fireball which sucks against everything, but eventually you'll get inferno which is good against this but can be countered by this, etc)?