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Maps? No thanks!
untale
Member Posts: 21
I think there shouldn't be real-time mini-maps like this
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/screenshots/022006/5915.jpg
A not so detailed static map should be enough.
Take WoW. You have a pretty detailed map. I don't really need to explore a newly discovered area, when the fog of war is gone I just check the map and instantly know that there's a cave in such and such place, a camp behind the hill, a road and two houses. Once I discovered a place I don't even have to make an effort to remember it, you have everything in the map. When you are near the zone you are heading to, you just throw a glance at the minimap and know exactly what direction to take in order to shorten the distance as much as possible. At times I was so perfectly oriented that I could run straight for miles and hit the target spot with an incredible precision. This annihilates immersion.
Now take real life. I'm in a new town and I have no idea where I am. I have to ask people, to read the signs on the corners of the roads, and maybe I'll need to buy a map. Being in a medieval era maps cost, they are hand drawn and poorly accurate. Even with a map I need to realize where I am on it and this is going to be confusing at times.
You need to stop, open the map and then consult it with a compass.
This would make the game much more immersive I think. In such a way you would actually need to give attention to the environment surrounding you. You'd become more familiar with places around the world because you had to intimately discover them step by step, experiencing every single corner.
What do you think?
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/screenshots/022006/5915.jpg
A not so detailed static map should be enough.
Take WoW. You have a pretty detailed map. I don't really need to explore a newly discovered area, when the fog of war is gone I just check the map and instantly know that there's a cave in such and such place, a camp behind the hill, a road and two houses. Once I discovered a place I don't even have to make an effort to remember it, you have everything in the map. When you are near the zone you are heading to, you just throw a glance at the minimap and know exactly what direction to take in order to shorten the distance as much as possible. At times I was so perfectly oriented that I could run straight for miles and hit the target spot with an incredible precision. This annihilates immersion.
Now take real life. I'm in a new town and I have no idea where I am. I have to ask people, to read the signs on the corners of the roads, and maybe I'll need to buy a map. Being in a medieval era maps cost, they are hand drawn and poorly accurate. Even with a map I need to realize where I am on it and this is going to be confusing at times.
You need to stop, open the map and then consult it with a compass.
This would make the game much more immersive I think. In such a way you would actually need to give attention to the environment surrounding you. You'd become more familiar with places around the world because you had to intimately discover them step by step, experiencing every single corner.
What do you think?
Comments
What I see in the screenshot is something commonly called "radar" in that it shows an overhead view of the locations of NPCs and PCs. I actually like this type of arrangement for "close quarters" work, for example, when trying to either find specific mobs or if trying to avoid mobs.
An overall zone area map is all right when it does not include too much detail.
A sidenote to that is the use of location coordinates on the map. I tend to particularly hate that x, y, z-system that divides every zone into four quadrants of (+) and/or (-) numbers and would rather gameworld locations be expressed in the more useful N-S-E-W compass coordinates.
But, in truth, most of all I want E3 to come and go so that Simutronics will give us info-dumps about the game and start ramping up beta testing.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Tragically I need maps, I dont exactly have what could be described as razor sharp memory and its embarasing as hell contantly asking people where things are!
I say keep the maps, dumbies like me need em
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
The design philosophy is "more fun, less tedium." Stumbling around lost is tedium. I like the maps.
Of course, they could make a UI customization feature where you could turn the map off if you wish.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I like the maps in Guild Wars - the main map lets you jump instantly to any town you have already been too.
The mini-map and main map highlight the quest with a green star, and show a red dottet line for the path you have walked.
The radar lets you ping and draw on it - which team mates can see. And it also shows the aggro zone so you can sneak past monsters. The radar is inside the compass, and also shows a green arrow for the direction you need to travel for your current quest.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Those Guild Wars maps and radar were really well done. Especially pinging and drawing on the radar map. Until of course somebody started writing "EAT ME" on the radar map, grrrr.
Well, okay, I guess I did laugh about the first hundred times that was done -- but that's all.
~ Ancient Membership ~
In regards to maps. Maps are good. No maps are bad.
Detailed maps are good. Many filters are good. Zooming maps are good. On off toggle for maps are good.
Fog clearing as you adventure is good. Clear concise individual icons for people places and things are good.
Clicking on party members who show on a map is good. Clicking on them and being able to chose to send a tell to them is good.
The ability to mark permanent waypoints is good. Being able to remove those permanent waypoints that were mistakingly added is good.
Maps always oriented North are good. Maps that absolutely do not rotate and change their orientation based on the direction you are traveling are good.
Quests showing on maps are good. Quest givers showing on maps are good.
Now that is all only my opinion. But if I were really hunting dragons and adventuring in ghoul infested swamps and what not, I would take copious notes. And I would constantly update the maps that I carried on my person and the ones I looted off the dead bodies of evil minions.
Only the most brave or foolhardy venture blindly into the unknown. Heck, even Kirk used star charts.
I would even go so far as to say we should be able to show our maps to others if we so desire. If I were approached by a wandering minstral that needed directions through the Dire Fell Black Blastedlands I would give him or her verbal as well as visual instructions. Hence a map. Or a stick and a clear patch of dirt.
Maybe we could have dirt maps instead. So they ask directions and I pull out my trusty stick...er...map. I could then make a mark on their map. This would not clear the fog of an area they had yet to visit but it would give them a point deep in the fog to navigate towards.
They would have to discover all the interesting small bits themselves. So as far as I am concerned that would actually help with making the world seem more real and interactive.
No more spamming instructions and requests back and forth in the chat boxes. Instead a person could walk up to the nearest warm body, click on that person and then click on the tab in the drop down menu (which includes an instant Tell option among many others) for "Oh mighty warrior could you direct an unworthy underling?". No response would close the window and maybe make a derisive noise of some kind. And "yes" would open a private chat between the two, or the party and the person asked (so everyone in the party wouldn't have to individually ask the same question), and open everyones maps for the helpful X marks the general spot.
For those who do not like maps they could make maps a quest item. If you want a map of the area you wish to adventure in, then you do the map quest for that area. So those that did not wish to use maps would choose not to do the map quests.
I, like another poster mentioned, have a hard time navigating around in virtual worlds. In a game you tend to miss you peripheral vision which is used to orient yourself in space. Which in turn is used almost subconsciously in familiarizing your self with your surroundings. Recognizing where you are is a cumulation of many things seen and barely seen as well as the use of other senses. But we do not have that ability in a game. We have a pretty limited frontal view even with a camera pulled way back. And of course there are no scratch and sniff games yet so smelling where you are is definitely out.
Sorry. Long story short. I think maps are very useful in a game.
Oof. Looks like I'm on the less popular side when it comes to this issue on maps. So why do I dislike maps? I'll list the reasons below.
1. Exploration. I like discovering things on my own. I'd rather be the trail blazer, taking mental notes of little landmarks so that I don't lose my way. Its always fun to find that secluded lake or the mysterious cave too.
2. Realism. I keep on hearing people yammering about this "suspension of disbelief" stuff, like that armor thread. I just can't imagine maps, especially accurate maps, being so common that the whole population has their own personal versions. Some games are even worse when they map npcs or monsters on the map. I can't really imagine a real paper map in real life with an 'x' and the words "Bob is here".
3. Community. I think not having maps would really add to the interaction between players. For those of less-than-stellar navigation skills, finding others to show them how to get to places would be pretty cool. It might even go as far as to become a sort of occupation. People with a passion for travel might decide to become professional guides as a way of making money.
4. Badass. Yeah, lets face it. You feel a lot cooler going into uncharted territory, not knowing what you're up against but willing to face any challenge. Thats part of being a hero in my opinion, which is what this game is all about. I think the previous poster explained it pretty well in his post; "Only the most brave or foolhardy venture blindly into the unknown." Brave? Foolhardy? I consider those compliments. This game is about being a hero - having an actual sense of bravery for stuff you accomplish would be pretty sweet.
The above stuff is just my little opinion - I'm not trying to say map dependents are bad or anything. I liked one idea that Laoosaer proposed in his last post: the whole using a stick and a patch of dirt deal. This would be fun for roleplaying. Not only could you draw rudimentary maps, but it could have other uses too. Maybe you're chatting with a bunch of friends, and they want an idea of what that "terrifying beast" you always are bragging about actually looks like. Its sure to amuse them with a crappy little dirt drawing you come up with. If people want to get somewhere they don't much about, they can always get aid from other players. Or, for the less social, perhaps major cities would have single copies of giant maps for public view in the libraries, universities or any other type of place where such referance material could be found (like the arcanum or something).
To
be honest this partial result surprises me, I was almost sure that
the majority was going to reply like Volsung (I 100% agree with
him).
Maybe we just have different views on what's fun in a
MMOG and what is not.
Someone said in this thread that "less
tedium" is the way to go. I think on the contrary that some
tedium is needed. Tedium, fear, desperation.. these are emotions as
well, and along with the pleasant ones they make you never forget the
most exciting experiences. I'm going a little bit OT now.
A
friend of mine used to play Ultima Online (I played it too, it was
the best MMOG experience so far). He made big sacrifices to buy a
tower deed and after weeks of efforts he collected the necessary
amout of money. He bought the deed and was going to settle the tower
outside Trinsic. But he made a big and stupid mistake.. he went
alone. He encountered a PK and here begins the tragic part. The PK
chased and killed him, and of course looted the deed.
He
described the chase as moments of pure terror, and he told me that
when he realized he had lost the deed he cried like a baby!
But
nothing is wrong in this event, he just took a too big risk, it was a
(stupid) bet. "Maybe I'm lucky and..". Heh..
Risk
grows proportionally to bravery / crazyness. If you are VERY brave,
you are taking a BIG risk.
And
if you accomplish something after being VERY brave.. heck, you
accomplished something you won't forget for a long time.
If,
on the other hand, there is no risk.. then there's no bravery nor
crazyness, no matter what you do. In a game with no.. tedium? you are
not a hero.
What
I'm trying to say is that when risk is involved you will think twice
before doing stupid things. With risk you must really use your
intelligence and every new adventure is full of excitement because
you know it may end up in a tragic way. In a true RP environment you
must take in consideration the consequences of your actions. If you
just take away the tedious part because.. because it's tedious (?)
and you "don't like it" (of course, who likes tedium!), you
don't solve the problem in an RP way, you just thoroughly eliminate
the problem from its roots, from the game mechanics, making it
impossible to happen.
Returning
to the maps.. well, this is just a (maybe only little) part of my
view on the matter.
1 - exploration - thats what the fog of war on your map is for.
2 - realism - disagree here. Of course everyone wouldnt really have a map. The map substitutes for the knowledge of the land and environs you would have if you actually spent your entire life in that make believe world instead of in this real one.
3 - not convinced on this.
4 - fog of war - you dont know what towns you will find, monsters you will encounter etc until you go there. All you know if that someone asked you to walk 30 leagues east and collect a letter from Tom (hes that quest marker on your map surrounded by fog)
I agree we should be able to take stuff from our map, and mark it onto other peoples maps - as if we were a quest giver. So if someone said where is Town XXXX if we had been there we could give them directions - ie mark a spot on their map.
I dont think having maps - lowers the risk. It just removes the tedium of stumbling around in the dark.
Personally I have a couple of hours a day to play, and I want ot have fun. Stumbling around with no idea where I am going is not my idea of fun.
Knowing where I am going doesnt mean there is no risk as I have no idea what I will encounter in my travels.
That said I often like to going exploring. So I will open my map, look to see where I have never been (thats where the fog is), travel as close as I can then head off into the wilderness to see what is out there.
With no my I can either wander aimlessly around, or I am stuck following the quests (very linear) to find new places.
Games these days are so big, without a map if you went exploring and found something interesting - say a new dungeon - how would you ever find it again to take your friends there?
Also not everyone thinks being griefed/PK is fun. Thats why games provide PvP and PvE servers or options like HJ for opting in and out.
Still they remove part of my fun. You call it the "tedium of stumbling around in the dark". This is something FUN.. if you ask me.
A world without maps is much more realistic because you have to remember places, to find places like you do in the real life. It enhances communication, thus immersion (you have to ask sometimes). It rewards me if I have been much time in the same place because I will feel more familiar with the environment.
Psychologically talking it radically changes the way we see the world in the game.
The worst things are the "radars". I hate them and you can't imagine how..
Your question got an obvious answer: you ask. There are towns, there are NPCs and players who already know that there's a dungeon. They are here to interact with you, this isn't a single player game. If you communicate with the world around you (MMOGs are about social interaction as well) you will come to know whatever you want, and, with a bit of lucks, even interesting secrets.
MMOGs have huge potentials but the social one is often wasted. I'm also against free inspections because I see it as a violation of my (virtual) privacy and I want people to ASK me what's my stuff, not click a button f rom distance and come to know everything about me.
Take away maps and you'll see how fun the game will become.
I don't like other players being able to see my items or what level I am either.
I think being able to see that also encourages others to irritate or kill, among other things, once they know they can take the other.
I like the idea of basic maps, perhaps purchased or "drawn".. with an ability to place your own markers on them.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
Well in Guild Wars - there are underground lcoations where you dont get to use maps. These are fun. But again they are small areas.
News Flash - Games dont force you to use the map or compass. Dont press the M key
Turn off the compass and enjoy to your hearts content.
I think you missed my point (or I didnt make it very clearly) - if you travel off into the wilderness for 2 hours, find a new dungeon and its not on your map - how are you going to take your friends or anyone to visit it. I dont think they want to stumble around in the wilderness for 3 or 4 hours in the hope you can find it again. I know my friends dont want that. They want to take the straight line - spend an hour travelling and then get to explore in the dungeon.
And I do ask NPC's - thats how I get quests to go somewhere and do something. And you know what they do tell me where it is - by marking it on my map
Maps let me set goals and judge distances / time required. So I can look at a quest, look at the map, look at how much time I have to play and make a decision as to whether that is acheivable within my time constraints. Without the map I would spend hundreds of hours not achieving my goal (quest).
Wow - I actually agree with you on the inspection thing. Not that Guild Wars lets you do that anyway.
On the tedium topic - I have never paid to watch a movie, then come out three hours later asking where was the tedious bits. I have read Lord of the rings many times, I wouldnt have done that if I had to slog through thousands of pages of Frodo taking a crap, setting up camp, walking for 2 weeks with nothing happening etc. I like my games to fast forward it a bit.
Yeah I very much like the idea of "drawn" maps with the ability to put markers on them. I'm all for interaction and deep immersion rather than unilateral and predetermined things. Dynamic > static.
_Shadowmage
It seems you played only few MMOGs (this is my impression). Guild Wars is a highly instanced game. You even just have to click on the map to instantly travel. I played it for a short period of time but that just wasn't something I could enjoy much.
They tell by marking on your map? That's GW. Maps let me set goals and judge distances / time required? That's GW again. We are just looking for different gaming experiences!
"News Flash - Games dont force you to use the map or compass. Dont press
the M key
This doesn't make sense for me, if there's a map I will use it no matter what, I'm not nerfing myself or going to "force" a game with strange tricks. What I'm talking about is everything behind the choice to not include an easy map in the game, hum.. the philosophy behind it.
EDIT -
"I don't like other players being able to see my items or what level I am either." - > xDivianaDRx
I agree! I'm not a number nor a shop window showing off my stuff. And if the game doesn't provide you level and maybe even class, very fun things are made possible.
For instance I could make me look like a noob and walk in the woods waiting a PK, just to pwn him.
Upon creating a character and opening the map you would see a small icon representing your starting town. That’s it, everything else is blank parchment. If you were to zoom in, you would notice that only the immediate area around your character is filled in. As you explored your first town the map would fill in the shops, landmarks, roads and whatever else you stumbled across.
Now you’ve wandered around town, explored all the buildings and got yourself set up to dungeon crawl. You head over to the tavern where some inebriated guy in a dress is rambling on about his exploits in an abandoned mine south of town. So you ask the drunken man-wench to point it out to you on your map. After a few ales he agrees. Now when you open your map there’s a marker placed on it indicating the area where you can find this dungeon. Nothings been revealed but at least you know where to walk.
A few other players in the tavern over hear and ask to go with you. Now you’ve got a little party going on. You interacted, yey.
Markers could be added by npc’s and players. If you stumble into some ramshackle goblin town, you won’t have any problem leading your blood-thirsty pack of friends back for dinner and a show. Those who explore could even sell information on various locations. The guy with 300 hours of exploration is rewarded with a detailed map and the guy sneaking in 30 minutes before work is rewarded with directions.
Of course web sites will probably have all this information map or no maps. Not much you can do about that. Then there are the player created radars that seem to pop up no matter what. Might as well provide players with an interesting in-game alternative.
Yes Guild Wars is the only MMOG I have played.
The mini-map in guild wars provides an extra layer of communication with the ability to draw and ping on it and have party members see it. I like the aggro circle that helps with sneaking as well.
The instant travel to any location you have visited is great for the community. You can easily form up parties with friends and guild members without having to spend an hour traipsing across the map to get to the same town.
True it was exciting taking the risk and painful to lose a character in pen and paper - but at least in pen and paper the GM didnt say sorry you cant play with your friends anymore until you spend two years catching up, you could start a new character at about the same level of development.
Or at least I could with the GM I played with, and when I GM'd I let my players do that.
So in some MMORPG's that isnt true (Not syaing HJ is like this), but if there was a permanent death then if you died suddenly you are being penalised and cant play with your friends anymore.
And there is no lag in Pen and Paper games
And you know what - in pen and paper we had maps - even when we were playing vikings. Not very realistic, but helped us as players visualise where we were going.
Thats why I think maps are great, and games having keys to turn them on/off is great - people arent forced to use the map.
map. You don't want other players to have a map which would in effect
nerf everyone. But if everyone is nerfed, no one is nerfed. But if
everyone has a map no one is nerfed either. Since no one will be nerfed
either way, might as well have robust map features.
The only way I could possibly justify not having a detailed and elaborate mapping system is if we were all playing the game with full vr helmets that game us full 360 degree and complete peripheral vision and the textures and objects were so detailed and realistic that no 2 objects or inches of any terrain ever looked identicle ever.
Those are the very reasons I don't need detailed maps in real life...because in real life nothing is perfectly identicle and terrain never forms perfect texture patterns. But videogames have not evolved to that point. Terrain objects and textures will look exactly alike, and will make travel an excercise in tedium and confusion. Thats why we need maps at this level of our computer gaming technology. So while I see the value in what you are saying, the map is simply a simptom of (or compensation for) the bigger problem and that problem may fade as computer technology advances.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I played EQ1 during a time when they didn't have in-game maps, yet I knew my way around. Not by looking at a map mind you, but learning the layout of each zone and using landmarks to navigate the zones.
Maps are NOT needed, they are a crutch.
Burn the maps!!!
And for crying out loud...no radars. I mean, what's next, get a GM to hold your hand around the game so you don't get lost?
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't nerf yourself by turning off your
map. You don't want other players to have a map which would in effect
nerf everyone. But if everyone is nerfed, no one is nerfed. But if
everyone has a map no one is nerfed either. Since no one will be nerfed
either way, might as well have robust map features.
Sure, I correct you.. you are wrong.
You are twisting what I said. If the game was originally designed to contain a detailed map then there's nothing I can do, the map is just there and I am not going to nerf myself while everybody around me is using it.
IF the game was designed without maps, then nobody has a map and nobody is nerfed. We are just talking about a game with no maps.
To let you understand better I'm now just going to replace X-ray with maps on what you said.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't nerf yourself by turning off your your X-rays. You don't want other players to have X-rays which would in effect
nerf everyone. But if everyone is nerfed, no one is nerfed. But if
everyone has a map no one is nerfed either. Since no one will be nerfed
either way, might as well have robust X-ray features.
See my point?
I beleive the original poster has realized that his idea isn't as popular as he thought it would be, and is now scrambling to prove that it is the best. FACE IT. We like maps, we like radar. If we wanted to live in a tottally realistic fantasy world we would want in-game bathrooms, toilets, necessary food, and the such.
Tedious sucks in MMORPG's, sorry, but it's true.