Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Should MMORPG.COM be promoting illegal activities?
Blurr
Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
Well like many of you I loaded up the mmorpg.com site this morning and there were, of course, a couple of big ads on the screen. Only thing was, one was for an mmo leveling service, and the other was for a gold buying service. Both of those are pretty much against the rules in every MMO I've ever played. I'm no lawyer but I believe that doing any of these activities breaks the EULA contracts and can get you sued if the company feels it necessary.
Frankly the fact that the site is promoting these services at the same time as they call down gold farmers and post news articles about bannings (ie, the banning movie from RFO), seems to contradict itself.
Do the game developers know that when they come here, they're coming to a site that promotes many of the things they are trying to keep out of their games? Can you respect a 'news source' that advertises buying and selling gold/items or leveling services? Is it responsible of them to be taking money from the same people whom many of us feel are ruining our games?
Thoughts?
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
There's already an exhaustive sticky at the top of the forums about this exact topic. Have you read it and their stance on it and why they are allowing the ads that they do? If you read that, maybe you'll have better insight bud.
- Zaxx
when you start using words like 'illegal' you should take a lesson in picking your terms.
2nd - read the sticky up top as this issue is old and has been discussed time and time again.
You have been a member for over 2 years and have posted over 100 times, yet you just today notice they advertise resellers, etc?
No wonder you didn't notice the 10 page sticky above already discussing this.
And yes, I truly wish people would stop using the term 'illegal'. Nobody is going to jail over anything to do with reselling. It breaks the EULA for most games, but it is not against any laws.
__________________________
Malianea
Yawn......................
Anyway.........
IGE IS NOT AN ILLEGAL SITE. Just to put facts straight.
This kind of business might be immoral for the majority of MMORPG players, but it's not illegal by any means.
The Eula is an agreement between you and the developers, which you need to agree in order to keep playing the game, if you cheat and get busted your account will be canceled, and that's as far is permitted by this kind of agreement.
Breaking the Eula is not a criminal offence, therefore you are not a criminal if you break it and the companies that take advantage of it are not criminal either.
MMORPG.com has to pay for the servers and the staff blah blah blah...........................
If you don't like their policy, just move your (free) custom somewhere else.
I very much prefer having a good site like MMORPG.com for free than having to pay for a membership, thank you very much.
The banners don't disturb me a bit, in fact I never clicked on them, and neither should you.
But keeping resurrecting the dead horse is just plain annoying, it has been beaten to death and beyond for long enough.
Ads are ads, but don't disillusion yourself. Selling something that belongs to someone else and hasn't given you the right to sell is illegal in most countries.
Advertising them may or may not be depending on the localtion of the server of the ads or the site, but it isn't the sites resposibility to make sure you follow the laws in your area, it is yours. It is not illegal to explain how to make a bomb on the internet, but it is illegal to make them in many areas. To be able to legally advertise somethign and to legally use what is advertised are completely different issues.
BTW, people can eliminate almost all of them with foxfire and flashblocker (or similar sounding name module).
This is ridiculous.
IT IS NOT ILLEGAL PEOPLE!! Gawd forbid.
Will you all stop with selling gold and mmo items is "illegal" and saying that mmorpg.com is promoiting "illegal" activites??
An ad selling illegal drugs would be illegal. An ad selling sex for money would be illegal.
These ads may sell virtual goods and services that are AGAINST THE EULA or their CODE OF CONDUCT.
But breaking the little games rules is NOT ILLEGAL. Again, I repeat, it is NOT illegal activity. It is simply against the games rules, and IF (I repeat "IF") the game would actually back up it's own rules... THE WORST THAT WOULD HAPPEN IS THE USER COULD LOSE HIS ACCOUNT!
Losing an account because you broke the games rules is hardly illegal activity.
Geez this is such an old, worn out topic and people still run around exclaiming the word "Illegal" and saying that this site is promiting "illegal" activity. It's totally ubsurd and sickening. Use your damn heads people. God gave you some common sense for a reason, please use it for crying out loud. I back this site 110% on every ad they have and have used. If it pays their bills, good for them. The simple soultion is uhhh DUH... don't click the damn ads if you don't want the virtual goods that you claim are ummm so "illegal".
- Zaxx
Ads are ads, but don't disillusion yourself. Selling something that belongs to someone else and hasn't given you the right to sell is illegal in most countries.
Advertising them may or may not be depending on the localtion of the server of the ads or the site, but it isn't the sites resposibility to make sure you follow the laws in your area, it is yours. It is not illegal to explain how to make a bomb on the internet, but it is illegal to make them in many areas. To be able to legally advertise somethign and to legally use what is advertised are completely different issues.
BTW, people can eliminate almost all of them with foxfire and flashblocker (or similar sounding name module).
Sorry mate but, but you are wrong.
Reselling virtual goods in an online game is not illegal in any country in the world, so it doesn't matter where the servers are. I know that for sure.
It's not illegal in US, not in Europe, certainly not in China or Korea where it is widespread.
The game publisher cannot sue none of those companies neither you can be prosecuted for breaking the Eula.
Laws about trading virtual goods in online games are not yet being contemplated by any governament yet, and they are not covered by the existing laws that covers the digital material such as music, movies or games.
A game is cosidered digital material, a sword although is part of the game is considered virtual material, and there is no law in this world that covers this field yet.
You just need to know that IGE 's been bought by Microsoft, I really don't think a big corporation like Microsoft would have done something like that, unless their 1000s lawyers told mr Gates that it was safe to do so.
The game developers tells you that it is illegal, but they misquote the word intentionally just to scare the crap out of you.
Basically all their arguments are just vaporware. Trust me.
Sorry Blurr, you won't find any sympathy here. Like any mmo has rabid, blind fans, so does mmorpg.com
Fans here think its perfectly alright to have leveling services and farming companies promote their games. Farming companies who get their gold by infesting servers with afk bots.
Fans here think mmorpg.com can't attract 2 new advertisers to replace the two that are causing so much controversy.
Ask any developer of mmorpg games and ask them if they support gold farming or 3rd party levelers. Odds are they will say no. Yet the namesake site of the industry does, why? Because they want to earn a profit. I don't buy the argument that those 2 ads are the make it or break it funding needed to keep the site alive.
so ur goin against the stie that u go on?
how strange...
If you dont like it, why dont you pay a monthly fee enough so that mmorpg.com can run without ad?
There is already a sticky about this, read it if you still need to be convinced.
Your better go talk to a copyright attorney, since you are disillusioned. And, yes, I do have one. I am a videographer.
They are not reselling virtual goods. Anyone who told you that doesn't understand that there is no definiton of a virtual good since it doesn't fit the definition of a good or product. It does however fall under items created in the minds of a group and is so itellectual property. It is illegal to sell the intellectual property that you do not have permission to sell. Logging into the game gives you no right to resell anythign you get in the game because the authors didn't give you the right.
It is the same as selling excerpts of a book without permission. The laws of reselling products do not apply, but the laws for IP do and always will. Yes, some "virtual resellers" have been sued and shutdown for plagarism and not under property laws, but this whole "virtual property" is just a misleading statement.
Virtual material may not exist. But currency is content and is intellectual property.
IGE wasn't purchased by MS either, read to much into the rumor mill. Gmae developers tell you it is illegal because it is. I remember various MP3 trading services telling its users it was legal to trade MP3s if the song was out of print in their area...lasted a while until they got shutdown when they got large enough to get major label attention. Right now the MMO market is too small to get that kinda attention. It is still illegal, but the companies can't afford to shut them down. On top of that the MMO market is tiny in terms of cash flow and no one cares about it lobbying.
Again, virtual goods don't exist. Plagarism and reselling of intellectual property does.
When a person sells gold in Ultima Online for example, he is not selling intellectual property. He is basically asking for compensation for his time spent aquiring that amount of gold in the game. And people pay him for this gold (or time he has spent aquiring it)
Again, this isn't "illegal" activity. It is simply against many mmos rules and EULAs, which as it states specifically in those user agreements that the consequences of breaking the EULA or user agreements can typically result in a simple users ban or suspension from the game.
NONE OF THESE EULAS STATE THAT SELLING THE VIRTUAL PROPERTY IS ILLEGAL AND WILL/CAN RESULT IN LAW ENFORCEMENT OR PRISON TIME! (because it isn't "illegal")
The illegal part as you speak of stealing intellectual property is more on the lines of hosting your own servers for the game for profit or stealing parts of the code or game world for your own game or profit.
So please stop stating that breaking the rules of the game (EULA, user agreements) which most games don't even enforce anyhow with bans and suspensions is "illegal". It is NOT illegal activity. By you stating such, you are pointing your finger at eBay, IGE, this website, and hundreds of other mediums as being/permitting "illegal" activities. You better damn well get your facts straight before you go pointing that kinda finger at the innocent.
- Zaxx
Nope, the currency never leaves the property of the people who own the game. You are merely paying for the ability to enjoy it with your subscription. Like a rental fee.
EULAs mean nothing in court. Never have never will, all they do is give the company the ability to kick you from the server for the reason stated in the EULA without having to goto court. The legal liablities of breakign copyright are listed there as a convenience, not because of the power of the EULA.
The paying for the time thing has been tossed out as a defense numerous times now. That defense was accepted once for a power leveling service and has somehow been attached to currency selling without merit. And the accounts involved in that case were all shutdown because they allowed those who didn't pay access to the game through their accounts, which is not allowed because they didn't pay for the service.
Intellectual property extends past servers and such to ANYTHING that an author has rights to. Even if the currency is called "gold" it only exists in relation to the world the authors created. You are paying a monthly fee for the right to use the IP of the author, not a license to resell it. The gold may be given away freely ne with a valid account, but once money changes hands it does become illegal.
You say that because peopel aren't being banned left and right that it must be legal? It is hard to know who is doing what without directly observing them, and almsot no game can afford the GMs to do that. It is just like how many speeders never get a ticket because they weren't directly observed. And being banned or not doesn't mean anything. In the words of a famous psychopath "mrder is legal as long as no one catches you".
No, I am not blaming the companies that list the ads. You can advertise alot of illegal activities legally. Like I said above it is not this site's responsibility to make sure you follow your local laws and since this is an international site there are things legal in some areas that are not necessarily in other readers areas.
So, please stop misleading people.
lol why don't you stop and actually think about it for a minute? this has been going on for years (gold and account selling services) do you see anyone getting sued? do you see any of these services going down?
it isn't illegal by any means, if it was these websites would go down in a heartbeat....end of discussion.
edit: BTW I'm not arguing the fact that it should be legal, because i wish it was illegal.....but its not.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
As I said there are digital materials that are covered by law, like music, movies, games and so on.
All the infringements of copyrights refer to those laws.
Those laws don't cover what we call virtual goods or whatever you want to call them.
If you know about any law that deal directly with this issue, please post it right here.
Til then, stop confusing the normal copyright infringiments with something that is not contemplated by any law yet, or doesn't exists.
yes you said it, there is not such a thing like Virtual Goods, how can you make a law that rules something it doesn't exists?
Yes there is not actual definition for those kind of goods, because anyone has been able to categorize them, let alone make a law that rules them.
Again, normal copyright rules don't apply to this kind of materials.
Prove me wrong please.
Do you want to sue IGE pants? Or better do you want to reveal the super secret headquarters of this bunch of criminals to Blizzard and co, so they can sue them on your behalf?
There you go, I ll help you out:
Los Angeles IGE
Suite 511
369 South Doheny Drive
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
Miami IGE
Suite 222
635 Euclid Avenue
Miami Beach, FL 33139
Now the culcripts have been unmasked, you can send the FBI in.................
From Northeasterns legal information site, which you do need a membership to read, but you can further research the issue through other legal resources.
The Themis Group's Richard Bartle have argued and won battle based on the notion of virtual property is inherently flawed [4] since players do not "own", materially or intellectually, any part of the game world, and merely pay to use it. In fact, one of the dangers of investment in virtual property is that the game developer is free to change the game world at any time.
Furthermore, because "virtual property" is actually owned by the game developer, a developer who opposed real commerce of in-game currencies would have the right to destroy virtual goods as soon as they were listed on eBay or otherwise offered for real trade, though this decision would be highly controversial.
Many parts of the article are on various wikipedias....illegally may I add. Fee free to contact the legal group listed, they offer a PDF of common IP misonceptions.
No man, you really don't get it. I don't need to read that.
You need to send those precious documents to all those clueless layers that spent years studying law and yet failed to convict a single one of those companies.........what a bunch of fools they are.
Maybe the game companies should have hired you instead, considering you are such an expert.
In fact game developers didn't even tried to sue those companies once.
My common sense tells me that probably their lawyers told them they didn't stand a chance...........what do you think?
Come on man, use your head and stop this non sense please.
The companies should also stop misquoting the word illegal.......... forbidden (by them and THEIR rules) would be most appropriate word to use.
you wish to get into MMORPG.com advertising policies and want us to read/respond, please take it to the
often mentioned sticky thread.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Actually they have. But due to the fly-by-night IP and account usage that these companies use it is often not worth the costs to pursue them in court. Shutting down accounts takes far less time, effort and costs.
People are trying to get the laws changed to allow anyone to sell things they have earned in games, but they don't exist yet. It is called utilitarian value and earned rights to the value you created. But, laws alloowing to do that are not in place yet.
Second Life is the only massmarket MMO game that I know of where a players creations are legally their IP and cen sell it however they want.
BTW forbidden by law is one definition of illegal. Depending on what thesaurus you use illegal is listed by some.
The legallity of the ads is not in question, merely using the service.
Erahn is simply out of control here continuing to spout this illegal garbage the way I see it.
Hey everyone... since your charcater in any mmo isn't actually yours as Erahn says... and the gold isn't actually yours... and your characters swords and armor isn't actually yours... well then be careful!! In a game like UO where you can "steal" these virtual items OMG! Think about it under Erahns way of thinking. If your character "steals" a sword in a game like UO then you have committed a theft of a virtual good that isn't yours.. and oh my, yes that is umm "ILLEGAL" too!! You could and should go to prison. If you have ever stole gold, virtual goods of any kind off of any player or players corpse in any mmo, then you should change your legal name, move to a new address, dye your hair, and keep an eye out for the police. 'Cuz you have committed a great crime and will very likely be locked up by the cops any moment now!!! You have stolen virtual goods that are by law according to Erahn the rights of the mmo company of the game you have stolen in. {{ Wiiirrrr, Wiiiirrrrr Police sirens Wirrrring closer to your house!! Wiirrrrr, Wirrrrr }}
..This is exactly the rational and intelligence of Erahn and anyone else stating that selling gold and services of mmos is an "illegal" activity. Like I say Erahn, you better get your damn facts straight before you go pointing such a wild finger at so many innocent people, players, and online mediums of such affairs.
Actually yes, I agree - Lets move this now heated debate to the above sticky here very soon. I personally request a LOCK on this thread and have it moved to the approprite thread (sticky) above....especially with the major finger pointing and accusations of illegal activities being spouted so freely.
- Zaxx
Actually they have. But due to the fly-by-night IP and account usage that these companies use it is often not worth the costs to pursue them in court. Shutting down accounts takes far less time, effort and costs.
Actually they don't..............any proof?
If companies could shut those business they would, stop kidding yourself.
It is a matter of principle is not just a matter of money.
If I made a game and spent millions to do it, I would sue the arse out of everyone who tries to exploit my hard work.
The attitude "I can't be bothered" doesn't apply in business.
Companies sue people and other companies for less serious stuff than that.
Also you don't need to get their IP addresses to catch them, theiy are confessing their "dodgy business" in their own website:
http://www.ige.com/about (please don't buy anything)
So we know their crime, for their own admission. no other proof is needed.
We also know where they are
Los Angeles IGE
Suite 511
369 South Doheny Drive
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
Miami IGE
Suite 222
635 Euclid Avenue
Miami Beach, FL 33139
What else do you need to convict them?
Oh yes the right laws..................except they don't exist yet
A. The characters are not your, you should really know that by now. You didn't create the graphics for it, the armor for it, the skills you use, the spells you cast, you didn't create any of it after then name. All you did was assemble it from things that you paid to have access to. Your thoughts have nothing to do with your character except the roleplaying you do with it. You own that aspect nothing else, well so far, laws are still unclear here (see end)
B. An ingame mechanic and out of game action are two different things. Your in game theft example has no real place here.
C. If companies had the resources to stop virtual selling they would, but it is impractical right now. Do you know the entire idea behind the serial numbers on crafted items in SWG? It was to track players selling their wares out of game so that they could all be removed from the game when the player selling out of game was discovered. If a company could put a serial number on every item created and every piece of currency within their game then they could instantly remove all ill gotten currency from the game. But immagine the server load. It just won't happen.
Imagine what would happen to the currency selling companies involved? most would just stop and those left would be the one time almost impossible to track sellers in ebay or such. The issue would be much less than it is now. Who would buy a milllion gold and use it on the action house if that gold was tracked since it existed in the game and everything purchased with it suddenly disappeared.
The limiting factor to stop out of game sales is the cost of man power, the server laods and costs for more nodes, costs for possible legal services, and I am sure more things most game companies really could not afford to pay and keep the games alive.
D. This is what we call irony.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For some reason people think money should get you anything time can. The jury is still out on absolute legality as far as this goes really. It isn't really legal or illegal yet. It doesn't really fall into any laws specifically, but it does touch on others.
Do you have the utilitarian rights to the specific combination of data that is your character because you put the effort in to create that combination?
No court seems to have touched that issue yet specifically, or if the time involved is legal to sell.
If all parties have paid access to the service are they allowed to make deals out of game buying/selling somethign that already exists in that game world and only to be used by those who have legitiment access to that game world?
Civil suites since MUDs have gone both ways on this and there realyl isn't a standard yet because it never goes to a higher court, heck would you bother with such a tiny issue at a higher court?
It really isn't legal or illegal right now, just kinda depends on circumstances. One issue a lot of people are not discussing here is that fact that a large amount of the gold and items that are being sold shouldn't exist in the game world and even if it is legal to sell somethign you earned many of the items should not be. Duping and exploiting are a source for alot of the items being sold online and that brings up additional issues.
This greed, jealousy, and gimme-gimme attitude is what is going to destroy the MMO market. Legal or not if buying and selling currency or items becomes standard the MMO market will die. Start adding up the costs per month to play and buy currency and how fast players burn through content. It is about $.50 a day to play an online game now, double or triple that to stay competitive and people will just stop playing.