Originally posted by brihtwulf This is the same viewpoint people had when AC2 was on its way to the MMO graveyard. People who said, "I'm glad we're weeding out all those people who don't want to play." The thing is, your little handful of friends isn't capable of paying the bills for a large corporation who spend millions of invested money and lisencing on this project. Like it or not there was a mass exodus from DDO and the blood keeps spilling out of the wound. This is quite evident when you consider the number of posts on the forum for one. It used to be that you would be licky if your thread was put back 10 pages or more in one day. Now a new post pops up in a much lesser frequency. <snip> The elitist asses over at DDO and here on the forums need to realize the game wasn't built for a small group of people to tinker around in. You can't just say "screw you, good riddance" to everyone with a problem over the game. The game NEEDS players to survive!
The attitude Briht describes above never ceases to amaze me. The narrow mindedness of it is incredible. "As long as I'm happy, the game will survive." I'm sure that's what the folks playing AC2 or E&B thought right up to the point that the announcement was made that the servers were closing.
The glee that the elitists throw out their "Go play WoW!" or "CIHYS?" makes you wonder if they have the simplest grasp of the economics being discussed. SWG hemorraged players after the CU and gushed players after the NGE, but with the financial backing of both Sony and LA the game can survive. MxO was in serious trouble until SOE picked it up, and again Sony's money is all that's keeping it afloat.
Turbine is privately owned and in debt up to it's eyeballs from the money it borrowed to make DDO and LotR:O. AC does not have enough players to turn enough of a profit to overcome it's debt. Turbine is desparately trying to dig up players for DDO ... not because of any great love of it's playerbase, but to pay off it's debts. That's why the price of the box dropped so soon, and why they resorted to a free trial so early in the game's life cycle.
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this. But I'd be surprised to see DDO last much longer than a few months after LotR:O launches unless the DDO team makes wholesale changes to thier game to attract new players.
You'll know it's close to the end when they introduce solo content. After having drawn a line in the sand with their "Friends don't let friends solo" campaign, should they introduce solo content it would be a firm indication that they are grasping at straws for players.
Originally posted by Crash86 The attitude Briht describes above never ceases to amaze me. The narrow mindedness of it is incredible. "As long as I'm happy, the game will survive." I'm sure that's what the folks playing AC2 or E&B thought right up to the point that the announcement was made that the servers were closing. The glee that the elitists throw out their "Go play WoW!" or "CIHYS?" makes you wonder if they have the simplest grasp of the economics being discussed. SWG hemorraged players after the CU and gushed players after the NGE, but with the financial backing of both Sony and LA the game can survive. MxO was in serious trouble until SOE picked it up, and again Sony's money is all that's keeping it afloat.
That's exact behavior the AC2 player displayed on attack of the show when it first aired. When it was noted that AC2 was going to be closed down for good, the players were shocked? How could they be shocked when the players base was nearly empty. I mean 90% left and only 10%, even X-play made fun of the fact that no one played it.
I hope gevrik goes down with the ship because I can't wait to see him post his reactions about why the game is ending. It'll be hilarious.
Originally posted by Crash86 You'll know it's close to the end when they introduce solo content. After having drawn a line in the sand with their "Friends don't let friends solo" campaign, should they introduce solo content it would be a firm indication that they are grasping at straws for players.
And when they start consolidating servers so that remaining subscribers can still find groups. I see this happening soon. Even the fanbois are starting to complain about how hard it is to find a group at certain times now.
Everybody has an opinion about this game. I hated it. I don't think a game can survive without solo players. I don't mind teaming up sometimes but I play solo about 60 - 70% of the time. Thats why I played a ranger. I wanted to explore the world and adventure by myself. Could be some time in the future this game will have enough content and solo capability that I will come back but I don't think the game will survive that long. Too bad, I so wanted this game to rock. Guess I'll try AOC in the fall....
Originally posted by Ferretrodeo Everybody has an opinion about this game. I hated it. I don't think a game can survive without solo players. I don't mind teaming up sometimes but I play solo about 60 - 70% of the time. Thats why I played a ranger. I wanted to explore the world and adventure by myself. Could be some time in the future this game will have enough content and solo capability that I will come back but I don't think the game will survive that long. Too bad, I so wanted this game to rock. Guess I'll try AOC in the fall....
It could have survived without solo had they actually made it appealing to their target audience which I feel for the most part they dropped the ball on. The one's that are argueing the details of the 3.5 ruleset are NOT the heart of PnP players. I never gave a rat's backside which version I was playing (I did have my preferences though), I was far more interesting in what was going on in the adventure then how the combat was resolved.
However they completely missed the ball on capturing what AD&D is, and therefor they have just another MMO that is very thin on content. It's pretty sad when 2 months after release a chunk of the community is already looking for something to do.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
But if you want to stay on the sunking ship that is DDO, and follow it's captain (Turbine) into yet another iceberg (as the one of AC2), then by all means drown in the frigid waters... My only hope is to keep people from getting on board only to die horrible deaths and the hands of a mad captain.
Nice!
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I try to defend DDO when I can, even if I strongly dislike it myself. Many of my friends enjoy it a lot.
About the trashing all folks who dislike it by telling them they are soloers who doesn't like grouping...a real grouper don't need to trash on soloers. I don't think all peoples qualify as soloers...do I qualify as such? Don't think so. Does Fadeus above qualify as a soloer? Not at all. And so on. (The fact someone solo a little doesn't make him a soloer above everything else)
Solo is, after grouping, the single most important aspect for a MMO IMO.
DDO is a real great ACTION game, underline the word ACTION many times, it is not a RPG, it is an ACTION game with a rpg skin, nothing more than a very tiny insufficient rpg skin. Diablo was more a RPG than DDO will ever be.
D&D past computer products are all solo friendly, including NWN after playing it (and more or less enjoying it, it pass time but it is nothing close to the quality of BG2). I agree with a game that put the priority on grouping, I can only applaud to that. But when grouping is done at the expense of solo, than it is an unworthy grouping system IMO. Real groupers don't need to trash soloers.
I am myself somewhat of a hybrid, 65% grouper, 30% soloer and 5% whatever else. So if you want to pass the test, starting with a maximum result of 65% assuming you score perfect certainly put you trailing far behind a game like CoV, as CoV overall score beat 65%, with no solo you can't even compete.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this.
I imagine that you are correct.
After AC2 and this debacle, my attitude towards LotR:O could at best be described as "skeptical." Releasing a game where soloing is nearly impossible (after the first few missions) and with content you can blow through before your trial month is up was abysmally stupid, imo. Turbine seems to have an attitude of "you'll like what we tell you to like" worse than any developers I can think of, second perhaps to the guys associated with EQ and SWG. That doesn't fly in today's market, we have far too many choices to stand for it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Originally posted by Fadeus However they completely missed the ball on capturing what AD&D is, and therefor they have just another MMO that is very thin on content. It's pretty sad when 2 months after release a chunk of the community is already looking for something to do.
Pre-Kunark EQ community was done in far less than 2 months...if you remember. Of course, most of them left the game and never come back as the devs make raiding choices. Raiding choices you happen to enjoy as a minority claiming to be a majority seem to enjoy. I remember the first players I meet in EQ, the real uber folks...they left, relatively quietly, as the mana stones where altered, kiting rules changes and most importantly, raids added. The folks who have been trailing behind join and where quite happy to master an empty game, where all the highbess have left...but that would be another story...a story Brad doesn't like much.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Fadeus However they completely missed the ball on capturing what AD&D is, and therefor they have just another MMO that is very thin on content. It's pretty sad when 2 months after release a chunk of the community is already looking for something to do.
Pre-Kunark EQ community was done in far less than 2 months...if you remember. Of course, most of them left the game and never come back as the devs make raiding choices. Raiding choices you happen to enjoy as a minority claiming to be a majority seem to enjoy. I remember the first players I meet in EQ, the real uber folks...they left, relatively quietly, as the mana stones where altered, kiting rules changes and most importantly, raids added. The folks who have been trailing behind join and where quite happy to master an empty game, where all the highbess have left...but that would be another story...a story Brad doesn't like much. riiight....
like with how many people have ipods just because advertisements make kids with them look uber cool
consumers can be easily persuaded, we just have to do so carefully, that is, without them knowing they are being persuaded.
warcraft is a gamers ip, which means that it will have more success releasing a new game than a card game.
d&d is a card game which means it will have more success releasing cards than games.
blizzard made the warcraft ip
turbine bought the d&d ip
sadly, todays market caters far too well to ip's... which means that big game comps like ea get to do crappy knockoffs of every great movie, card game, or book of all time, and get great sales and moderate reviews simply because people love the franchise.
todays market , in my mind, is what screws us the most, screws our most beloved universes into corporate cashflow hell.
take lotr for instance.
the movies, the books and the lore are far superior to anything warcraft has, yet blizzard makes better warcraft games than lotr.
ip's have so much more nostalgia then anything else really can, thus they have a capactity to become a greater game.
it's not that people are bound to the world or events in the books or stories, it's that game developers dont really care about the franchise and it's all been rushed together.
ip destruction is one of the sorriest losses that gamers have to face, but we continue to force it.
we buy ip'd games
ip'd games become expensive to get licenses for
only big nazi corps (ea) can afford rights...
it's a viscous cycle that forces us all to eat our share of garbage.
world of warcraft might save us tho
as it stands, it has been cheaper, easier, and more successful to do crappy rushed ip games.
wow has eaten up so much market, that games are now having to try and supplant it rather than replace it.
this could lead to devs getting
less crunch more resources more time
this has as you can probably imagine, tons of great consequences for all of us, and the game industry as a whole.
thanks blizz
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Lets get real. This game isnt the best, but it is fun. In the end thats what it comes down to right? I dont like WoW, thats just me, but over 50 million other people do. Its all in what you like to do, I do like some of the things WoW have to offer. Like raids I bet those can be fun, then again I only played WoW for a day or two, it just didnt catch my attention. I have Uber ADD lol, I will play a game for 15 days or so and just stop. I cant remember the last game I finished.
Originally posted by Jd1680a Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon I only have one problem with you post... You start out by putting down anyone who has a problem with DDO... Not a very good way to get others to listen to what you have to post.
I have a right to criticize with people who have a different view then mine. almost all posts i have seen so far have been only negative to DDO. nobody is listening to this post is because its something that is actually positive and its not what they want to hear because they are looking for something bad about DDO.
I read your post. I dissagree with you. The problem with DDO has nothing to do with grouping. I actually like that it strongly encourages, almost forces, grouping. I played EQ for 6 years after all. Behind UO that's the longest I've ever played any one MMO (Though DAOC is catching up to EQ since I cancelled SOE games altogether after NGE and am still playing DAOC). I still play UO. Another game where you can solo but going in a group is better (if only for strength in numbers when PK's show up).
My problems with DDO have nothing to do with 'forced grouping'. My problem is very simple:
The game is not worth paying a monthly fee for.
There's no world to explore
The combat system leaves me cold. Since WHEN does AD&D require twitch reflexes to keep your cursor over a target?? Sorry, that ain't AD&D.
The quests are pretty stale and you can run through ALL the content, even with the new expansions, in under a month or two.
There's no "re-play-ability" in the game. Once you have done it once you've done it. The urge to 're play it' is *nil*. Why? Because not only are there not a hell of a lot of quests and absolutely *no* world to explore... oh and no crafting... and 100% instanced.... you also have NO diversity in quests worth mentioning. Regardless which class you choose you'll be doing the same quests over and over. WHEE who f'in cares. Even GuildWars gives you more quest diversity. DAOC, a game 5 years older than DDO (hell almost 6 years older) has more quest Diversity.
Did I mention it has no world to explore?
Did I mention that it's even more instanced than GuildWars? (And I though THAT would be impossible)
If DDO were like guild-wars in that it were a box price but no monthly fee it wouldn't be a bad purchase. I probably would play it from time to time. But for $14.95 a month? NO WAY.
I dissagree with your posts point as well. I'm not the only one that has said this. In fact most people who don't like DDO and have taken the time to post their reasons have *included* the forced grouping but for the most part it wasn't a major point but rahter 'one reason among many' that they didn't like it.
If you like paying $15 a month for a quest engine that's great. But for free you can get a better one, it's called NeverWinter Nights. And you can even create your own campaigns in that one if you want to.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Pirate_x Lets get real. This game isnt the best, but it is fun. In the end thats what it comes down to right? I dont like WoW, thats just me, but over 50 million other people do. Its all in what you like to do, I do like some of the things WoW have to offer. Like raids I bet those can be fun, then again I only played WoW for a day or two, it just didnt catch my attention. I have Uber ADD lol, I will play a game for 15 days or so and just stop. I cant remember the last game I finished.
My stance is this:
If you enjoy the game and like paying $15 a month to play it, then fine. But what those who don't like about the game is no less valid than the fact that you like it. In fact, if they vastly out number your opinion, in the long run it's theirs that matters. Because without sufficient subscribers Turbine will be forced to shut the game down.
I respect that there ARE people who like DDO. My points (above) are simply this:
The game, to most people who have tried it, is *not* worth a monthly fee. Those of us who were in the beta gave Turbine a huge laundry list of reasons why they should have an explorable world, even if it was as instanced as Guildwars world is. It should have a basic crafting system. It should have a guild system. It should have more content. It should have more targetted storylines. It should have more storyline variation.
It's not like Turbine hasn't done MMO's before. I'd have a LOT more tolerance for this if it were made by a startup. But Turbine has now produced 3 MMORPG's. Asheron's Call 1 was the best of them. They've gone downhill since, imo. And from everything I've read about LOTR:O I'm affraid it's going to flop as well. But at least it will have a world to explore.
You can't charge people $15 a month for a quest engine with nothing else to do. Most won't pay it. And those that do will leave as soon as they burn through the content.
I made this point in another thread as well:
The problem DDO faces is that GuildWars offers players just about everything that DDO does plus GuildWars throws in a basic crafting system (nothing spectacular but there IS a crafting system), guild alliances, PVP, PVP Rewards, A world to explore and the ability to solo anytime you want. All this with no monthly fee and a current box price in the $30 range depending where you buy it.
I can quest in both games
Both games reward you for questing
But in GuildWars if I cant get a group, or just don't have time, I can hop on and finish up a quick quest or just go out exploring for a bit. And since there's no monthly fee I don't have to even think twice about whether the game is worth the fee I'm paying for it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this. But I'd be surprised to see DDO last much longer than a few months after LotR:O launches unless the DDO team makes wholesale changes to thier game to attract new players.
You'll know it's close to the end when they introduce solo content. After having drawn a line in the sand with their "Friends don't let friends solo" campaign, should they introduce solo content it would be a firm indication that they are grasping at straws for players.
Wow well said.
Though i would add that if they are really desprate, they will add solo content as a paid expansion and kill the game soon after.
Solo content wouldnt work well with the game mechanic right now. Some types of chars are weak against bosses, other weak against hordes of kobolds, or skeletons. Only very balanced chars could solo. There is the problem of healing: in the solo content there either has to be lots of shrines, or some other way of healing, because potions cost much.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Originally posted by random11 Solo content wouldnt work well with the game mechanic right now. Some types of chars are weak against bosses, other weak against hordes of kobolds, or skeletons. Only very balanced chars could solo. There is the problem of healing: in the solo content there either has to be lots of shrines, or some other way of healing, because potions cost much.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Let me get this straight... You are saying that gouping is just fine the way it is right now... But the ability to solo would ruin group play because everyone would solo... So actually something is wrong with group play if no one would group if they did not have to. Right?
Originally posted by random11 Solo content wouldnt work well with the game mechanic right now. Some types of chars are weak against bosses, other weak against hordes of kobolds, or skeletons. Only very balanced chars could solo. There is the problem of healing: in the solo content there either has to be lots of shrines, or some other way of healing, because potions cost much.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Erm... wait... giving people the option to solo... the ability to play at times they otherwise can't.... that's a bad thing for the game?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
I notice you stayed far far away from the "lack of a world to explore" problem
Didn't mention the lack of a crafting system problem either.
Didn't mention that there's no player housing or really any goal other than 'getting to the next level' either.
Lack of any kind of coherent storyline for players to follow.
The fact that the game remembers nothing about you other than your level and how many times you have done X quest.
DDO has multiple problems. Lack of an ability to play alone when your friends aren't on or you can't get in a group in a quick timeframe is only the tip of the iceberg.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon Originally posted by random11 Solo content wouldnt work well with the game mechanic right now. Some types of chars are weak against bosses, other weak against hordes of kobolds, or skeletons. Only very balanced chars could solo. There is the problem of healing: in the solo content there either has to be lots of shrines, or some other way of healing, because potions cost much.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Let me get this straight... You are saying that gouping is just fine the way it is right now... But the ability to solo would ruin group play because everyone would solo... So actually something is wrong with group play if no one would group if they did not have to. Right?
Time is valuable, although I am a very sociable kind of guy, I often found myself roaming alone in wow, even though I intended to group. It is simply easier to solo, because you don't have to wait for others, and you can go pick up that coke from the kitchen at any time. Solo content would be imbalanced imho, like I said before, and it has the above mentioned latent danger. Yes grouping works fine right now, though I posted some more suggestions on the boards of how to make it more effective, dev responded they will consider it :P. I never play rogue or cleric these days, yet always manage to get a full grp (if that is my will) in max 15 mins, usually under 10, guild helps a lot.
TBH the major problem is with warforged, sadly many dislike them, only with good communication can the wf class be a successful.
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by random11 Solo content wouldnt work well with the game mechanic right now. Some types of chars are weak against bosses, other weak against hordes of kobolds, or skeletons. Only very balanced chars could solo. There is the problem of healing: in the solo content there either has to be lots of shrines, or some other way of healing, because potions cost much.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Erm... wait... giving people the option to solo... the ability to play at times they otherwise can't.... that's a bad thing for the game?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
I notice you stayed far far away from the "lack of a world to explore" problem
I did, for the casual player it is good stuff, I rarely have time to explore much these days, so I don't lack it. Others surely do, and they will have to figure out something about this. I think non-instanced zones might hold some integrity type of danger. It would be possible if players could rest at will, but like so, it's hard to achieve now.
Didn't mention the lack of a crafting system problem either.
I didn't. I never crafted tbh, so I don't know the feeling, either I fight (not most cases), sneak or trade, economy is my favourite. The way you get the equipement is fine by me, though some measure of crafting could be introduced, nicely balanced of course...think they'll add this feature.
Didn't mention that there's no player housing or really any goal other than 'getting to the next level' either.
Player housing to be added, confirmed by lead game designer, though it's not a priority...my own opinion about it is, player housing is a waste of time. Sry for all those who like it, but I can live without.
Lack of any kind of coherent storyline for players to follow.
Give it some slack, the game has the best quests out there, all quests have nice long juicy stories...some ppl don't even read, but it's quite good. I hate that they don't have persuade present more often, could say I was spoiled by force persuade :P
The fact that the game remembers nothing about you other than your level and how many times you have done X quest.
What should it remember?
DDO has multiple problems. Lack of an ability to play alone when your friends aren't on or you can't get in a group in a quick timeframe is only the tip of the iceberg.
Everyone who tried got a group, remember to ask the important questions though: how much can you play, can you speak english(or any other) proper, do you have respect for each class's specific role. If you can communicate proper, then you can have a very friendly PUG experience, being party leader requieres real life social skills..this is a pro.
In most good MMOs, grouping...just happens, you start out solo and you go to a spot and all of a sudden you encounter someone else there...do you move on or do you say hi?(or in some games gank them ) ...if you say hi the next thing you know your in a grouped with that person, all of a sudden you encounter someone else doing the same thing and they join you too..so forth and so forth...thats basically part of the adventure ...nothing mechanical or force...just random encounter. Its one of the things i always found lacking in instanced games like GuildWars and of course DDO
Soloing does not determine a game been boring.I mean take EQ1 when i played it i had epic dagger planar armor (best at that time) and could not solo nothing at all.Yet it was fun.
DDO is boring because there is absolutely nothing to do but dungeon instances and sit in some inn and wait for a group.No outdoor quest,no explorations,no crafting,no housing .It lost all the elements that make ppl love mmorpg and then the slap a mmorpg price on it .
In most good MMOs, grouping...just happens, you start out solo and you go to a spot and all of a sudden you encounter someone else there...do you move on or do you say hi?(or in some games gank them ) ...if you say hi the next thing you know your in a grouped with that person, all of a sudden you encounter someone else doing the same thing and they join you too..so forth and so forth...thats basically part of the adventure ...nothing mechanical or force...just random encounter. Its one of the things i always found lacking in instanced games like GuildWars and of course DDO
Well in DDO you will probably never have such encounters, because the classes are not autonomous. Imagine an open are with many ppl...well that just won't work, what will the rogues do alone? There certainly wouldn't be any traps or secret doors (this is obvious afterall, how could you implement secret doors, when everybody is there:P ), thus making rogue useless. Now if we have an open public space, that means mobs have to respawn, makes it difficult with casters, they constantly run out of mana (and it is known casters are for special kind of mobs and bosses, to take them out fast), unless they make shrines usable many times...that would make the casters overpowered. Everybody would have the issue of running out of hp, this would make healers overpowered. After all this speculation I simply ask how can you make a soloable public space in DnD withought causing major imbalance.
All this means groups are an absolute necessity in the game. Game does not force grouping, game is created for ppl who like grouping from the get go.
Originally posted by Crash86 Originally posted by gevrik If you take a look at the official forum, you will find a majority of the posters loving the game.
Really, now?
The "I'm quitting this game because <insert reason here>" posts are a very odd way of showing it. Although those have seemed to dwindle lately as those folks have actually .. y'know ... quit playing.
Here's a better way to tell how much everyone is loving the game:
Since this thread was started on 3/29, you can count on one hand the number of times a server listed had a snapshot if more than 1000 players. And those times were before the first month was over.
I don't have a problem with someone liking the game, Gevrik. However, I do have a problem with people trying to blow sunshine up people's cabooses about how the game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's not.
People who love the game are playing it. People who wanna bitch, by and large, come to sites like this.
When I first started coming here this site was mostly people helping each other find a kewl game to play. Now it is overrun with bitchy moaners who want nothing more than to whine non-stop. The DDO forum is ground zero.
Comments
The attitude Briht describes above never ceases to amaze me. The narrow mindedness of it is incredible. "As long as I'm happy, the game will survive." I'm sure that's what the folks playing AC2 or E&B thought right up to the point that the announcement was made that the servers were closing.
The glee that the elitists throw out their "Go play WoW!" or "CIHYS?" makes you wonder if they have the simplest grasp of the economics being discussed. SWG hemorraged players after the CU and gushed players after the NGE, but with the financial backing of both Sony and LA the game can survive. MxO was in serious trouble until SOE picked it up, and again Sony's money is all that's keeping it afloat.
Turbine is privately owned and in debt up to it's eyeballs from the money it borrowed to make DDO and LotR:O. AC does not have enough players to turn enough of a profit to overcome it's debt. Turbine is desparately trying to dig up players for DDO ... not because of any great love of it's playerbase, but to pay off it's debts. That's why the price of the box dropped so soon, and why they resorted to a free trial so early in the game's life cycle.
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this. But I'd be surprised to see DDO last much longer than a few months after LotR:O launches unless the DDO team makes wholesale changes to thier game to attract new players.
You'll know it's close to the end when they introduce solo content. After having drawn a line in the sand with their "Friends don't let friends solo" campaign, should they introduce solo content it would be a firm indication that they are grasping at straws for players.
That's exact behavior the AC2 player displayed on attack of the show when it first aired. When it was noted that AC2 was going to be closed down for good, the players were shocked? How could they be shocked when the players base was nearly empty. I mean 90% left and only 10%, even X-play made fun of the fact that no one played it.
I hope gevrik goes down with the ship because I can't wait to see him post his reactions about why the game is ending. It'll be hilarious.
Everybody has an opinion about this game. I hated it. I don't think a game can survive without solo players. I don't mind teaming up sometimes but I play solo about 60 - 70% of the time. Thats why I played a ranger. I wanted to explore the world and adventure by myself. Could be some time in the future this game will have enough content and solo capability that I will come back but I don't think the game will survive that long. Too bad, I so wanted this game to rock. Guess I'll try AOC in the fall....
It could have survived without solo had they actually made it appealing to their target audience which I feel for the most part they dropped the ball on. The one's that are argueing the details of the 3.5 ruleset are NOT the heart of PnP players. I never gave a rat's backside which version I was playing (I did have my preferences though), I was far more interesting in what was going on in the adventure then how the combat was resolved.
However they completely missed the ball on capturing what AD&D is, and therefor they have just another MMO that is very thin on content. It's pretty sad when 2 months after release a chunk of the community is already looking for something to do.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I try to defend DDO when I can, even if I strongly dislike it myself. Many of my friends enjoy it a lot.
About the trashing all folks who dislike it by telling them they are soloers who doesn't like grouping...a real grouper don't need to trash on soloers. I don't think all peoples qualify as soloers...do I qualify as such? Don't think so. Does Fadeus above qualify as a soloer? Not at all. And so on. (The fact someone solo a little doesn't make him a soloer above everything else)
Solo is, after grouping, the single most important aspect for a MMO IMO.
DDO is a real great ACTION game, underline the word ACTION many times, it is not a RPG, it is an ACTION game with a rpg skin, nothing more than a very tiny insufficient rpg skin. Diablo was more a RPG than DDO will ever be.
D&D past computer products are all solo friendly, including NWN after playing it (and more or less enjoying it, it pass time but it is nothing close to the quality of BG2). I agree with a game that put the priority on grouping, I can only applaud to that. But when grouping is done at the expense of solo, than it is an unworthy grouping system IMO. Real groupers don't need to trash soloers.
I am myself somewhat of a hybrid, 65% grouper, 30% soloer and 5% whatever else. So if you want to pass the test, starting with a maximum result of 65% assuming you score perfect certainly put you trailing far behind a game like CoV, as CoV overall score beat 65%, with no solo you can't even compete.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this.
I imagine that you are correct.
After AC2 and this debacle, my attitude towards LotR:O could at best be described as "skeptical." Releasing a game where soloing is nearly impossible (after the first few missions) and with content you can blow through before your trial month is up was abysmally stupid, imo. Turbine seems to have an attitude of "you'll like what we tell you to like" worse than any developers I can think of, second perhaps to the guys associated with EQ and SWG. That doesn't fly in today's market, we have far too many choices to stand for it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
riiight....
like with how many people have ipods just because advertisements make kids with them look uber cool
consumers can be easily persuaded, we just have to do so carefully, that is, without them knowing they are being persuaded.
warcraft is a gamers ip, which means that it will have more success releasing a new game than a card game.
d&d is a card game which means it will have more success releasing cards than games.
blizzard made the warcraft ip
turbine bought the d&d ip
sadly, todays market caters far too well to ip's... which means that big game comps like ea get to do crappy knockoffs of every great movie, card game, or book of all time, and get great sales and moderate reviews simply because people love the franchise.
todays market , in my mind, is what screws us the most, screws our most beloved universes into corporate cashflow hell.
take lotr for instance.
the movies, the books and the lore are far superior to anything warcraft has, yet blizzard makes better warcraft games than lotr.
ip's have so much more nostalgia then anything else really can, thus they have a capactity to become a greater game.
it's not that people are bound to the world or events in the books or stories, it's that game developers dont really care about the franchise and it's all been rushed together.
ip destruction is one of the sorriest losses that gamers have to face, but we continue to force it.
we buy ip'd games
ip'd games become expensive to get licenses for
only big nazi corps (ea) can afford rights...
it's a viscous cycle that forces us all to eat our share of garbage.
world of warcraft might save us tho
as it stands, it has been cheaper, easier, and more successful to do crappy rushed ip games.
wow has eaten up so much market, that games are now having to try and supplant it rather than replace it.
this could lead to devs getting
less crunch
more resources
more time
this has as you can probably imagine, tons of great consequences for all of us, and the game industry as a whole.
thanks blizz
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
I have a right to criticize with people who have a different view then mine. almost all posts i have seen so far have been only negative to DDO. nobody is listening to this post is because its something that is actually positive and its not what they want to hear because they are looking for something bad about DDO.
I read your post. I dissagree with you. The problem with DDO has nothing to do with grouping. I actually like that it strongly encourages, almost forces, grouping. I played EQ for 6 years after all. Behind UO that's the longest I've ever played any one MMO (Though DAOC is catching up to EQ since I cancelled SOE games altogether after NGE and am still playing DAOC). I still play UO. Another game where you can solo but going in a group is better (if only for strength in numbers when PK's show up).
My problems with DDO have nothing to do with 'forced grouping'. My problem is very simple:
The game is not worth paying a monthly fee for.
There's no world to explore
The combat system leaves me cold. Since WHEN does AD&D require twitch reflexes to keep your cursor over a target?? Sorry, that ain't AD&D.
The quests are pretty stale and you can run through ALL the content, even with the new expansions, in under a month or two.
There's no "re-play-ability" in the game. Once you have done it once you've done it. The urge to 're play it' is *nil*. Why? Because not only are there not a hell of a lot of quests and absolutely *no* world to explore... oh and no crafting... and 100% instanced.... you also have NO diversity in quests worth mentioning. Regardless which class you choose you'll be doing the same quests over and over. WHEE who f'in cares. Even GuildWars gives you more quest diversity. DAOC, a game 5 years older than DDO (hell almost 6 years older) has more quest Diversity.
Did I mention it has no world to explore?
Did I mention that it's even more instanced than GuildWars? (And I though THAT would be impossible)
If DDO were like guild-wars in that it were a box price but no monthly fee it wouldn't be a bad purchase. I probably would play it from time to time. But for $14.95 a month? NO WAY.
I dissagree with your posts point as well. I'm not the only one that has said this. In fact most people who don't like DDO and have taken the time to post their reasons have *included* the forced grouping but for the most part it wasn't a major point but rahter 'one reason among many' that they didn't like it.
If you like paying $15 a month for a quest engine that's great. But for free you can get a better one, it's called NeverWinter Nights. And you can even create your own campaigns in that one if you want to.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
My stance is this:
If you enjoy the game and like paying $15 a month to play it, then fine. But what those who don't like about the game is no less valid than the fact that you like it. In fact, if they vastly out number your opinion, in the long run it's theirs that matters. Because without sufficient subscribers Turbine will be forced to shut the game down.
I respect that there ARE people who like DDO. My points (above) are simply this:
The game, to most people who have tried it, is *not* worth a monthly fee. Those of us who were in the beta gave Turbine a huge laundry list of reasons why they should have an explorable world, even if it was as instanced as Guildwars world is. It should have a basic crafting system. It should have a guild system. It should have more content. It should have more targetted storylines. It should have more storyline variation.
It's not like Turbine hasn't done MMO's before. I'd have a LOT more tolerance for this if it were made by a startup. But Turbine has now produced 3 MMORPG's. Asheron's Call 1 was the best of them. They've gone downhill since, imo. And from everything I've read about LOTR:O I'm affraid it's going to flop as well. But at least it will have a world to explore.
You can't charge people $15 a month for a quest engine with nothing else to do. Most won't pay it. And those that do will leave as soon as they burn through the content.
I made this point in another thread as well:
The problem DDO faces is that GuildWars offers players just about everything that DDO does plus GuildWars throws in a basic crafting system (nothing spectacular but there IS a crafting system), guild alliances, PVP, PVP Rewards, A world to explore and the ability to solo anytime you want. All this with no monthly fee and a current box price in the $30 range depending where you buy it.
I can quest in both games
Both games reward you for questing
But in GuildWars if I cant get a group, or just don't have time, I can hop on and finish up a quick quest or just go out exploring for a bit. And since there's no monthly fee I don't have to even think twice about whether the game is worth the fee I'm paying for it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
My guess ... and it's just that, a guess ... is that if the numbers of players (good players, bad players, kids or adults) doesn't start to increase, they'll cut their losses sooner rather than later. Not before LotR:O goes live, for sure. The bad press from killing DDO before LotR:O goes live could cause LotR:O to be stillborn, and the suits are smart enough to know this. But I'd be surprised to see DDO last much longer than a few months after LotR:O launches unless the DDO team makes wholesale changes to thier game to attract new players.
You'll know it's close to the end when they introduce solo content. After having drawn a line in the sand with their "Friends don't let friends solo" campaign, should they introduce solo content it would be a firm indication that they are grasping at straws for players.
Wow well said.
Though i would add that if they are really desprate, they will add solo content as a paid expansion and kill the game soon after.
Soloing would also kill the grouping, noone would group often, they would just solo.
imho the groups work just fine now, not having solo content is not the biggest issue with DDO, adding it would definetly fasten up it's death, if it would ever occur.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
I notice you stayed far far away from the "lack of a world to explore" problem
Didn't mention the lack of a crafting system problem either.
Didn't mention that there's no player housing or really any goal other than 'getting to the next level' either.
Lack of any kind of coherent storyline for players to follow.
The fact that the game remembers nothing about you other than your level and how many times you have done X quest.
DDO has multiple problems. Lack of an ability to play alone when your friends aren't on or you can't get in a group in a quick timeframe is only the tip of the iceberg.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Time is valuable, although I am a very sociable kind of guy, I often found myself roaming alone in wow, even though I intended to group. It is simply easier to solo, because you don't have to wait for others, and you can go pick up that coke from the kitchen at any time. Solo content would be imbalanced imho, like I said before, and it has the above mentioned latent danger. Yes grouping works fine right now, though I posted some more suggestions on the boards of how to make it more effective, dev responded they will consider it :P. I never play rogue or cleric these days, yet always manage to get a full grp (if that is my will) in max 15 mins, usually under 10, guild helps a lot.
TBH the major problem is with warforged, sadly many dislike them, only with good communication can the wf class be a successful.
Erm... wait... giving people the option to solo... the ability to play at times they otherwise can't.... that's a bad thing for the game?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
I notice you stayed far far away from the "lack of a world to explore" problem
I did, for the casual player it is good stuff, I rarely have time to explore much these days, so I don't lack it. Others surely do, and they will have to figure out something about this. I think non-instanced zones might hold some integrity type of danger. It would be possible if players could rest at will, but like so, it's hard to achieve now.
Didn't mention the lack of a crafting system problem either.
I didn't. I never crafted tbh, so I don't know the feeling, either I fight (not most cases), sneak or trade, economy is my favourite. The way you get the equipement is fine by me, though some measure of crafting could be introduced, nicely balanced of course...think they'll add this feature.
Didn't mention that there's no player housing or really any goal other than 'getting to the next level' either.
Player housing to be added, confirmed by lead game designer, though it's not a priority...my own opinion about it is, player housing is a waste of time. Sry for all those who like it, but I can live without.
Lack of any kind of coherent storyline for players to follow.
Give it some slack, the game has the best quests out there, all quests have nice long juicy stories...some ppl don't even read, but it's quite good. I hate that they don't have persuade present more often, could say I was spoiled by force persuade :P
The fact that the game remembers nothing about you other than your level and how many times you have done X quest.
What should it remember?
DDO has multiple problems. Lack of an ability to play alone when your friends aren't on or you can't get in a group in a quick timeframe is only the tip of the iceberg.
Everyone who tried got a group, remember to ask the important questions though: how much can you play, can you speak english(or any other) proper, do you have respect for each class's specific role. If you can communicate proper, then you can have a very friendly PUG experience, being party leader requieres real life social skills..this is a pro.
double posted, edited this one out, sry
Soloing does not determine a game been boring.I mean take EQ1 when i played it i had epic dagger planar armor (best at that time) and could not solo nothing at all.Yet it was fun.
DDO is boring because there is absolutely nothing to do but dungeon instances and sit in some inn and wait for a group.No outdoor quest,no explorations,no crafting,no housing .It lost all the elements that make ppl love mmorpg and then the slap a mmorpg price on it .
Well in DDO you will probably never have such encounters, because the classes are not autonomous. Imagine an open are with many ppl...well that just won't work, what will the rogues do alone? There certainly wouldn't be any traps or secret doors (this is obvious afterall, how could you implement secret doors, when everybody is there:P ), thus making rogue useless. Now if we have an open public space, that means mobs have to respawn, makes it difficult with casters, they constantly run out of mana (and it is known casters are for special kind of mobs and bosses, to take them out fast), unless they make shrines usable many times...that would make the casters overpowered. Everybody would have the issue of running out of hp, this would make healers overpowered. After all this speculation I simply ask how can you make a soloable public space in DnD withought causing major imbalance.
All this means groups are an absolute necessity in the game. Game does not force grouping, game is created for ppl who like grouping from the get go.
Really, now?
The "I'm quitting this game because <insert reason here>" posts are a very odd way of showing it. Although those have seemed to dwindle lately as those folks have actually .. y'know ... quit playing.
Here's a better way to tell how much everyone is loving the game:
http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19540
Since this thread was started on 3/29, you can count on one hand the number of times a server listed had a snapshot if more than 1000 players. And those times were before the first month was over.
I don't have a problem with someone liking the game, Gevrik. However, I do have a problem with people trying to blow sunshine up people's cabooses about how the game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's not.
People who love the game are playing it. People who wanna bitch, by and large, come to sites like this.
When I first started coming here this site was mostly people helping each other find a kewl game to play. Now it is overrun with bitchy moaners who want nothing more than to whine non-stop. The DDO forum is ground zero.