"It was garbage before NGE and its still boarderline junk now. I'm playing my free vet time right now. its still the same old SWG except with classes now.
In all honesty, in the scope of being a video game, its not all bad, Sony just sucks and can't competently execute anything."
You failed to mention in general discussion that it was all our fault! Getting forgetfull in your old age?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
sry its late, i apologise. But THATS whats changed...... the population, even these carefree entertainers finally got fed up with it and quit, im pretty sure they had some sub combat proffesions... but now they cant have them, now its only /flo 1 /flo 3 /flo 4. do you not see it ..... or am i not seein something
Its cool
I guess all I'm saying is this. The mechanics are largely intact from what I see. (yes I know some professions got shit on) I'm not defending Sony at all. I think their management is for shit.
I am just a SW fan. People did great things within the context of the game rules then. I don't see why people can''t do it now is all. I just thought maybe a good reflective debate would be good for the soul Thats all. I'm not advocting everyone run out and resub. Its a matter of personal choice/taste.
This board is full of alot of hate. I mean come on, someone is even singling out in post titles that guy Obirak, some guy named Wepps and anyone else who says anything good about the game. Some of you even have made threats of violance against the devs. I know (or hope) its all just talk. I understand you all had a passion for the game. I can understand that. But now your creative passion has turned to destructive HATE. Thats not good.
I guess I'm just currious as to why its so intense here. The game was "ok" at best before NGE (IMHO) and its "ok" now. It just has some different rules then before. The people who made the Cantina Crawls (which I love, they show what people with the creativity and passion can do within the confines of a rule set can do) made their enterainers and enjoyed, created and had fun within the scope of the game. Entertainers are really not that much different now then they where last summer.
Thats what disappoints me I guess. I'm a SW fan (not a SWG fan) I see the "game world" of SW still there. I see the the people who had the passion not there because of a damn ruleset change.
I hate the idea of Jedi as a class. Its a game stopper for me. I have less tolerance of Jedi then I do bots in L2. And if you knew how much I hate bots and go out of my way to give them a hard time, that says alot. I've wasted many evening trying to kill them (bots) with trains just so I could have the satisfaction of taking their stuff and then reporting them.
EDIT
Just an observation, I noticed the mobs all drop crap for loot. All my "best" stuff is all crafter made. Thats just me though. I do still use a weapon I got as a quest reward.
EDIT EDIT
By the way, for those of you who missed it I did post my thoughts on a skill system rather then the NGE stuff last week.
Torak I understand what you are trying to tell everybody, and im going to agree with you because I understand every word youre saying here man. I played SWG from early beta until the CU hit, poped in every once in awhile, then offically holstered my pistols and parked my Firespray for good the day the NGE went live. Ive made several post up here saying almost the same thing you are, just not as in depth, and they are usually ignored lol. Its not so much that the CU and the NGE are that much worse than the origional game, its the manner it was given to us is what has caused most of the hate I believe, eventhough 99% of the others wont agree.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Wow, so lets see just because the graphics did not change, the game did not change?
SWG when first came out, had one basis, to appeal to players other then just SW fans, and one way to gain players is via game mechanics. Game mechanics are viral, when a good game comes out, people tell other people. And as far graphics go, people don't seem to have much preference what they as long as the game mechanics are well done and fun. Kingdom Hearts was an unexpected hit because nobody though Disney characters in an RPG would be very successful seller to anyone other then kids. Yet both kingdom hearts 1 and 2 have done well in other age brackets if not better.
When you change the underlying game mechanics, especially a major overhaul like the NGE, its not like adding features or changing small bits, its more like changing the game from a co-op RTS, to a adventure FPS. The adverse reaction is going to be strong.
And even if only a few of the rulesets have been changed. The rulesets that were changed took major changes and the gaming systems involved were altered radically.
The game was not about going and slaying the Krayt dragon, there was more to it. You are still missing out on the fact that the gameworld does not make up the majority of the game. The gameworld is just where the rules come into play.
Imagine you are playing a game of american football, you are on a giant field and lots of people are watching and cheering. Then half-time comes, and the game rules are changed drastically, people are still cheering, your linemen are all in the huddle, everything looks the same, but the rules are different. Is it the same? No, and if anything it feels awkward. And if that is a bad metaphor think of it as mid season the game rules are changed drastically.
And its not really the same but rearranged, rearranged would mean that you could do the things you did before. Which in some ways you can, and many ways you cannot.
75% of it doesn't work post-nge anyway.
Nobody considers Pre-CU to be a utopian/camelot/holy grail period. Anyone you ask will agree it had problems, but they liked the way the game played and just wanted the problems addressed.
But what did the dev team spend time on? Jedi/bounty hunter/expansions. No wonder it is in the state that it is in.
Then, after you watch one. (don't bother to comment until you have watched one)
Tell me what has changed?
All Sony has done has changed a few of the arbatary rule sets of the game. (again, no question the management style stinks)
You can't change skills, sure that limits your freedom. You don't like the Legancy quest? Don't do them. Its still the same.
My point is this. These movies where created not because of uber classes, uber loot, or any of that game mechanic crap. They where created by imaginitive people with a passion for SW. They where SW fans working within the boundries of the game. They where SW fans not SWG fans. They played and their characters lived within the boundries of that gameworld. The gameworld is still there. YOU are not.
You guys are the ones taking this away. You are all up in arms because they changed some rule sets but you lost the point. You can still do the things you liked (for the mostpart, I know people like the CH got pooped on) Its your attitudes that have soured.
When a rule is changed in professional sports do the players all quit? No they deal with it and learn to work with it. Do the fans stop watching the game? No, they deal with it.
The game is still the same only rearranged. All the same rules are intact. (aside from things they are "revamping" again because of YOU the player)
Half of it didn't work pre NGE anyway.
_________
Ok, I'll tell you ... but the Cantina Crawls were a really bad example if you didn't want to hear from an entertainer (who makes videos, btw).
You can't HAVE Crawls like you used to. Pre-NGE you had groups of 20 that could all flourish the same steps/play the same flourishes ... cut to 8 at CU. You can't even get anyone to MAKE a Cantina Crawl video since the NGE. Musicians can't play a couple of their instruments (they say it's fixed but playing the Narlagon does NOT work the way it used to). I attended Pre-CU and CU Crawls and the the Crawls made after the CU had about half the attendance of the Pre-CU Crawls. Also, since the NGE FPS crap it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to line your dancers up in a straight line to even make a video ... and their heads move back and forth should anyone walk by.
The combat animations that made the old videos so enjoyable are gone (unless you use an illegal mod).
The mechanics are much different. The community is completely different ... torn in two. The good will is gone. Certainly creative people will find ways to make good videos today, but the feel is completely different -- and unless YOU were responsible for making one of the videos you want us to watch you can't really argue with me. I was there.
I think where our views are different is this; I see the it as a gameworld / community first while many of you see it as a mechanic first.
When I played SWG the thing that kept me there was the outstanding community. Not the mechanics. I will be blunt, the mechanics IMHO sucked then to.
Persoanlly I do not put that much emphasis on an underlying mechanic, as long as it works, I'm generally happy. Thats where the problem for this game come in. Rather then fix it the first time they decided to rip the guts out and redo it. Twice. Thats just poor decission making. Why couldn't they just fix the first version? Who the hell knows. The CU IMHO was a set up for this all along.
NGE isn't new. IMHO. The CU was a testing / beta for it and the NGE is the result. The class levels (or whatever we called it in CU are proof of that and the accidental XP nerf back last summer, that wasn't a nerf, that was the new XP system) I'm sure you all know that by now.
Where I do agree with almost everyone is the way Sony went about this. You guys are totally justified being pissed at them. No question. It is bad unprofessional management. I don't need to say more, you guys have pretty much covered that.
Originally posted by Torak freebirdpat, I see your point and I can agree. I think where our views are different is this; I see the it as a gameworld / community first while many of you see it as a mechanic first. When I played SWG the thing that kept me there was the outstanding community. Not the mechanics. I will be blunt, the mechanics IMHO sucked then to. Persoanlly I do not put that much emphasis on an underlying mechanic, as long as it works, I'm generally happy. Thats where the problem for this game come in. Rather then fix it the first time they decided to rip the guts out and redo it. Twice. Thats just poor decission making. Why couldn't they just fix the first version? Who the hell knows. The CU IMHO was a set up for this all along. NGE isn't new. IMHO. The CU was a testing / beta for it and the NGE is the result. The class levels (or whatever we called it in CU are proof of that and the accidental XP nerf back last summer, that wasn't a nerf, that was the new XP system) I'm sure you all know that by now. Where I do agree with almost everyone is the way Sony went about this. You guys are totally justified being pissed at them. No question. It is bad unprofessional management. I don't need to say more, you guys have pretty much covered that.
I think you got it backwards. The mechanics are still there (buried somewhere under the pile of bugs) and the pretty scenery is there. But the game itself is gone. Gone is the interdependency of classes, no longer will I send an e-mail to my friends, telling them that I'll be logging in tonight, so they would get their orders ready and drop any "special components" they might have on my shop. They only need to go kill something to get their uber guns. Gone are the days of medics healing and buffering, now they are an uber PVP class.
Mechanics and pretty graphics don't make a game.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Originally posted by Torak First take a look at this link...and watch one of the movies. http://swvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Movies.List&category_select_id=3 Then, after you watch one. (don't bother to comment until you have watched one) Tell me what has changed? All Sony has done has changed a few of the arbatary rule sets of the game. (again, no question the management style stinks) You can't change skills, sure that limits your freedom. You don't like the Legancy quest? Don't do them. Its still the same. My point is this. These movies where created not because of uber classes, uber loot, or any of that game mechanic crap. They where created by imaginitive people with a passion for SW. They where SW fans working within the boundries of the game. They where SW fans not SWG fans. They played and their characters lived within the boundries of that gameworld. The gameworld is still there. YOU are not. You guys are the ones taking this away. You are all up in arms because they changed some rule sets but you lost the point. You can still do the things you liked (for the mostpart, I know people like the CH got pooped on) Its your attitudes that have soured. When a rule is changed in professional sports do the players all quit? No they deal with it and learn to work with it. Do the fans stop watching the game? No, they deal with it. The game is still the same only rearranged. All the same rules are intact. (aside from things they are "revamping" again because of YOU the player) Half of it didn't work pre NGE anyway.
Torak, if you havent understood by now why the changes go deeper then just adding levels and quests and taking professions out and changing the combat around ( wow that sounds like a lot just listing them), then you wont ever understand it. I replied to a post of yours with a similar topic (which i cant find now) in which i tried to explain why it is a completely different game now, but i see many people here have said the same thing in many different ways and examples.
Yet, you are still not getting it. I dont know why, but maybe you and others look at mmo's in kind of a 2d way, you kill things, you see people, you play with them if you feel like it, but if not then you do whatever till you shut the game off. Kind of like playing playstation. You are aware of things like a player economy and socialization and interdependency, but you dont really pay much attention to them, as long as you can still kill things and see people, it doesnt matter how those things work and it doesnt matter how much the developers change those things.
That isnt the way i look at mmo's and its not how i played swg. I dont have to explain to you my point of view, because many in this thread already have, and like i said, you wont get it. Im not trying to be condescending, i just dont know why you cant see that swg is not the same game to us in any way.
Maybe if you could look past the surface of the little activites that you can do to keep busy (like crafting or dancing) and start thinking about how other parts of the game relate to and effect it (like decay, loot, adk's, battle fatigue, group size, buffs etc.) and why it is no longer the same as it used to be, you'll start to understand.
Again, im not trying to be mean, I think we just look at it differently, thats why some people still play the nge, and the rest of us think it is a pile of crap.
Originally posted by Squidi Community isn't a gameplay mechanic. If the community went sour, it's not because of the change in mechanics.
That is true... But there are game mechanics wich foster socializing and community, which in my view is always a good thing. One of them was doctor heals and buffs. Meeting up on starports to get buffs and chatting up with the person in front of you on the line was cool. Now medics are an uber PVP class... How messed up is that?! Same when we used to wait 5 minutes for shuttles. I always wound up chatting with the next guy, complement him on his nice gear or offer him my services as a WS. Entertainers and Musicians had a purpose within their chosen class, which served for socializing as well (when they weren't AFK of course). Another example was the dependency of the adventure classes and the crafting classes, which is all but gone now.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Torak, your points are irrelevent. The game is not the same because the game was a community, it was interdependancy. The community was destroyed because of the lies, the changes, the nerfs to non-combatants. End of story. Stop talking about mechanics and stop blaming the players, shut-up and go play if you are satisfied with it...
Originally posted by duncan_922 Originally posted by Squidi Community isn't a gameplay mechanic. If the community went sour, it's not because of the change in mechanics.
That is true... But there are game mechanics wich foster socializing and community, which in my view is always a good thing. One of them was doctor heals and buffs. Meeting up on starports to get buffs and chatting up with the person in front of you on the line was cool. Now medics are an uber PVP class... How messed up is that?! Same when we used to wait 5 minutes for shuttles. I always wound up chatting with the next guy, complement him on his nice gear or offer him my services as a WS. Entertainers and Musicians had a purpose within their chosen class, which served for socializing as well (when they weren't AFK of course). Another example was the dependency of the adventure classes and the crafting classes, which is all but gone now.
Ive seen plenty strong communities in games which featured none of these. Like WoW. CoH. Guild Wars. Auto Assault. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by duncan_922 Originally posted by Squidi Community isn't a gameplay mechanic. If the community went sour, it's not because of the change in mechanics.
That is true... But there are game mechanics wich foster socializing and community, which in my view is always a good thing. One of them was doctor heals and buffs. Meeting up on starports to get buffs and chatting up with the person in front of you on the line was cool. Now medics are an uber PVP class... How messed up is that?! Same when we used to wait 5 minutes for shuttles. I always wound up chatting with the next guy, complement him on his nice gear or offer him my services as a WS. Entertainers and Musicians had a purpose within their chosen class, which served for socializing as well (when they weren't AFK of course). Another example was the dependency of the adventure classes and the crafting classes, which is all but gone now.
Ive seen plenty strong communities in games which featured none of these. Like WoW. CoH. Guild Wars. Auto Assault. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I'm not arguing and if you didn't notice, my first sentence is agreeing with you... I'm saying that SWG had these mechanics that fostered socializing and community and they've been all but removed. Take it easy man... This is the first time I've seen a non-trollish post from you, no need to mess it up.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Comments
Torak
"It was garbage before NGE and its still boarderline junk now. I'm playing my free vet time right now. its still the same old SWG except with classes now.
In all honesty, in the scope of being a video game, its not all bad, Sony just sucks and can't competently execute anything."
You failed to mention in general discussion that it was all our fault! Getting forgetfull in your old age?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Its cool
I guess all I'm saying is this. The mechanics are largely intact from what I see. (yes I know some professions got shit on) I'm not defending Sony at all. I think their management is for shit.
I am just a SW fan. People did great things within the context of the game rules then. I don't see why people can''t do it now is all. I just thought maybe a good reflective debate would be good for the soul
Thats all. I'm not advocting everyone run out and resub. Its a matter of personal choice/taste.
This board is full of alot of hate. I mean come on, someone is even singling out in post titles that guy Obirak, some guy named Wepps and anyone else who says anything good about the game. Some of you even have made threats of violance against the devs. I know (or hope) its all just talk. I understand you all had a passion for the game. I can understand that. But now your creative passion has turned to destructive HATE. Thats not good.
I guess I'm just currious as to why its so intense here. The game was "ok" at best before NGE (IMHO) and its "ok" now. It just has some different rules then before. The people who made the Cantina Crawls (which I love, they show what people with the creativity and passion can do within the confines of a rule set can do) made their enterainers and enjoyed, created and had fun within the scope of the game. Entertainers are really not that much different now then they where last summer.
Thats what disappoints me I guess. I'm a SW fan (not a SWG fan) I see the "game world" of SW still there. I see the the people who had the passion not there because of a damn ruleset change.
I hate the idea of Jedi as a class. Its a game stopper for me. I have less tolerance of Jedi then I do bots in L2. And if you knew how much I hate bots and go out of my way to give them a hard time, that says alot. I've wasted many evening trying to kill them (bots) with trains just so I could have the satisfaction of taking their stuff and then reporting them.
EDIT
Just an observation, I noticed the mobs all drop crap for loot. All my "best" stuff is all crafter made. Thats just me though. I do still use a weapon I got as a quest reward.
EDIT EDIT
By the way, for those of you who missed it I did post my thoughts on a skill system rather then the NGE stuff last week.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/75724
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
Wow, so lets see just because the graphics did not change, the game did not change?
SWG when first came out, had one basis, to appeal to players other then just SW fans, and one way to gain players is via game mechanics. Game mechanics are viral, when a good game comes out, people tell other people. And as far graphics go, people don't seem to have much preference what they as long as the game mechanics are well done and fun. Kingdom Hearts was an unexpected hit because nobody though Disney characters in an RPG would be very successful seller to anyone other then kids. Yet both kingdom hearts 1 and 2 have done well in other age brackets if not better.
When you change the underlying game mechanics, especially a major overhaul like the NGE, its not like adding features or changing small bits, its more like changing the game from a co-op RTS, to a adventure FPS. The adverse reaction is going to be strong.
And even if only a few of the rulesets have been changed. The rulesets that were changed took major changes and the gaming systems involved were altered radically.
The game was not about going and slaying the Krayt dragon, there was more to it. You are still missing out on the fact that the gameworld does not make up the majority of the game. The gameworld is just where the rules come into play.
Imagine you are playing a game of american football, you are on a giant field and lots of people are watching and cheering. Then half-time comes, and the game rules are changed drastically, people are still cheering, your linemen are all in the huddle, everything looks the same, but the rules are different. Is it the same? No, and if anything it feels awkward. And if that is a bad metaphor think of it as mid season the game rules are changed drastically.
And its not really the same but rearranged, rearranged would mean that you could do the things you did before. Which in some ways you can, and many ways you cannot.
75% of it doesn't work post-nge anyway.
Nobody considers Pre-CU to be a utopian/camelot/holy grail period. Anyone you ask will agree it had problems, but they liked the way the game played and just wanted the problems addressed.
But what did the dev team spend time on? Jedi/bounty hunter/expansions. No wonder it is in the state that it is in.
Originally posted by Torak:
First take a look at this link...and watch one of the movies.
http://swvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Movies.List&category_select_id=3
Then, after you watch one. (don't bother to comment until you have watched one)
Tell me what has changed?
All Sony has done has changed a few of the arbatary rule sets of the game. (again, no question the management style stinks)
You can't change skills, sure that limits your freedom. You don't like the Legancy quest? Don't do them. Its still the same.
My point is this. These movies where created not because of uber classes, uber loot, or any of that game mechanic crap. They where created by imaginitive people with a passion for SW. They where SW fans working within the boundries of the game. They where SW fans not SWG fans. They played and their characters lived within the boundries of that gameworld. The gameworld is still there. YOU are not.
You guys are the ones taking this away. You are all up in arms because they changed some rule sets but you lost the point. You can still do the things you liked (for the mostpart, I know people like the CH got pooped on) Its your attitudes that have soured.
When a rule is changed in professional sports do the players all quit? No they deal with it and learn to work with it. Do the fans stop watching the game? No, they deal with it.
The game is still the same only rearranged. All the same rules are intact. (aside from things they are "revamping" again because of YOU the player)
Half of it didn't work pre NGE anyway.
_________
Ok, I'll tell you ... but the Cantina Crawls were a really bad example if you didn't want to hear from an entertainer (who makes videos, btw).
You can't HAVE Crawls like you used to. Pre-NGE you had groups of 20 that could all flourish the same steps/play the same flourishes ... cut to 8 at CU. You can't even get anyone to MAKE a Cantina Crawl video since the NGE. Musicians can't play a couple of their instruments (they say it's fixed but playing the Narlagon does NOT work the way it used to). I attended Pre-CU and CU Crawls and the the Crawls made after the CU had about half the attendance of the Pre-CU Crawls. Also, since the NGE FPS crap it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to line your dancers up in a straight line to even make a video ... and their heads move back and forth should anyone walk by.
The combat animations that made the old videos so enjoyable are gone (unless you use an illegal mod).
The mechanics are much different. The community is completely different ... torn in two. The good will is gone. Certainly creative people will find ways to make good videos today, but the feel is completely different -- and unless YOU were responsible for making one of the videos you want us to watch you can't really argue with me. I was there.
Regards,
Aunti
freebirdpat, I see your point and I can agree.
I think where our views are different is this; I see the it as a gameworld / community first while many of you see it as a mechanic first.
When I played SWG the thing that kept me there was the outstanding community. Not the mechanics. I will be blunt, the mechanics IMHO sucked then to.
Persoanlly I do not put that much emphasis on an underlying mechanic, as long as it works, I'm generally happy. Thats where the problem for this game come in. Rather then fix it the first time they decided to rip the guts out and redo it. Twice. Thats just poor decission making. Why couldn't they just fix the first version? Who the hell knows. The CU IMHO was a set up for this all along.
NGE isn't new. IMHO. The CU was a testing / beta for it and the NGE is the result. The class levels (or whatever we called it in CU are proof of that and the accidental XP nerf back last summer, that wasn't a nerf, that was the new XP system) I'm sure you all know that by now.
Where I do agree with almost everyone is the way Sony went about this. You guys are totally justified being pissed at them. No question. It is bad unprofessional management. I don't need to say more, you guys have pretty much covered that.
I appreciate your reply, but the Cantina Crawls were all ABOUT community. Trust me. I miss them.
Aunti
I hear you. I even dabbled in dancing a bit lol
My Smuggler still has his hawtpants. sssssh dont tell anyone.
phew, anyway you guys have worn me out lol.
Mechanics and pretty graphics don't make a game.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Yet, you are still not getting it. I dont know why, but maybe you and others look at mmo's in kind of a 2d way, you kill things, you see people, you play with them if you feel like it, but if not then you do whatever till you shut the game off. Kind of like playing playstation. You are aware of things like a player economy and socialization and interdependency, but you dont really pay much attention to them, as long as you can still kill things and see people, it doesnt matter how those things work and it doesnt matter how much the developers change those things.
That isnt the way i look at mmo's and its not how i played swg. I dont have to explain to you my point of view, because many in this thread already have, and like i said, you wont get it. Im not trying to be condescending, i just dont know why you cant see that swg is not the same game to us in any way.
Maybe if you could look past the surface of the little activites that you can do to keep busy (like crafting or dancing) and start thinking about how other parts of the game relate to and effect it (like decay, loot, adk's, battle fatigue, group size, buffs etc.) and why it is no longer the same as it used to be, you'll start to understand.
Again, im not trying to be mean, I think we just look at it differently, thats why some people still play the nge, and the rest of us think it is a pile of crap.
For the Horde!
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Torak, your points are irrelevent. The game is not the same because the game was a community, it was interdependancy. The community was destroyed because of the lies, the changes, the nerfs to non-combatants. End of story. Stop talking about mechanics and stop blaming the players, shut-up and go play if you are satisfied with it...
Ive seen plenty strong communities in games which featured none of these. Like WoW. CoH. Guild Wars. Auto Assault. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Ive seen plenty strong communities in games which featured none of these. Like WoW. CoH. Guild Wars. Auto Assault. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I'm not arguing and if you didn't notice, my first sentence is agreeing with you... I'm saying that SWG had these mechanics that fostered socializing and community and they've been all but removed. Take it easy man... This is the first time I've seen a non-trollish post from you, no need to mess it up.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!