I know we've posted this before, but we seem to have a bunch of new people who may have not seen it. HJ is being built as a soloable game from the base. Instanced quests scale to the number of people in it as well as the level. The dual classing will allow classes, that will get deemed as support classes, a way to have a complimented combat class if wanted.
Don't be surprised though if the support classes are also effective in combat. Empaths(healers) in Gemstone are an extremely effective combat class. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs in charge of class abilities got some inspiration from there. Remember we're trying to break the mold on how MMOs are being done.
A few general reasons I like playing support classes.
Being able to shape the battle field to my groups advantage. Having a big bag O'tricks. The feeling of micro managing. Wracking my brain over life or death decisions.
Your average +stat buff for so many minutes. Some annoyingly boring spell I have to cast every so often to keep all the stats high. This reduces the support class into a buff bot role. I don't blame people for creating buff bots. It's so completely boring to cast +5str for 10 minutes. Same goes for debuffs. -5str got 3 minutes, boring. Maybe if my "debuff" turned their sword into a HAM for 1 minute it might be interesting.
Boring maintenance spells a turn off.
could not agree more
Buff Bots are the most critical downfall of the support class in my opinon
Give them something more interesting to do then cast the same spell over and over every 10 minutes to give the group that extra 10 defence or extra 25 health
Originally posted by HJ-Illuminat I know we've posted this before, but we seem to have a bunch of new people who may have not seen it. HJ is being built as a soloable game from the base. Instanced quests scale to the number of people in it as well as the level. The dual classing will allow classes, that will get deemed as support classes, a way to have a complimented combat class if wanted. Don't be surprised though if the support classes are also effective in combat. Empaths(healers) in Gemstone are an extremely effective combat class. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs in charge of class abilities got some inspiration from there. Remember we're trying to break the mold on how MMOs are being done. GM Illuminatis World Builder Hero's Journey
Yes, I do understand that, but then, if every class is effective in combat, what role does a warrior play? I myself love playing a fighter class, from basic D&D all the way to now, warriors/fighters/melee damage dealers are my main choice of classes. But MMOs basically relegate the warriors role to "movable rock with a lot of hit points". How is this game going to give me a different breed of warrior that will actually excel at combat like he should?
I will be honest, this game and Conan are the two games I've been waiting for to come out, and whichever one ends up "better" will get my money. I love the world, look and feel of Conan, as well as how they are attempting to make combat an actual visceral experience instead of mind-numbing damage-soaking. I love the customization of this game and the way the game is experienced by the players, whether you want to solo, or group. But a big thing for me will be what makes classes unique from each other, most notably the poor forgotten warrior, who currently in games does nothing that other classes can't do.
I do appreciate the timely response though. It looks like both of these games will have a staff that like to involve the population, and keep them informed. That I do like.
Originally posted by Lord_Jaroh Yes, I do understand that, but then, if every class is effective in combat, what role does a warrior play? I myself love playing a fighter class, from basic D&D all the way to now, warriors/fighters/melee damage dealers are my main choice of classes. But MMOs basically relegate the warriors role to "movable rock with a lot of hit points". How is this game going to give me a different breed of warrior that will actually excel at combat like he should? I will be honest, this game and Conan are the two games I've been waiting for to come out, and whichever one ends up "better" will get my money. I love the world, look and feel of Conan, as well as how they are attempting to make combat an actual visceral experience instead of mind-numbing damage-soaking. I love the customization of this game and the way the game is experienced by the players, whether you want to solo, or group. But a big thing for me will be what makes classes unique from each other, most notably the poor forgotten warrior, who currently in games does nothing that other classes can't do. I do appreciate the timely response though. It looks like both of these games will have a staff that like to involve the population, and keep them informed. That I do like.
While I'd like to answer this, I can't. I'm just on the World Team not development. They'll obviously have some role to plat, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it breaks away from the traditional meat shield with no brain that MMOs have made them into.
Originally posted by HJ-GOAT Hi Everyone, Goat here, dev GM in training. I'm not sure if I've introduced myself yet, but if not, howdy. In any case, and in light of the newly released info on clerics, bards, and healers, I'd like to hear what you think about the idea of support classes as a whole, in any multiplayer game. In gemstone it used to be understood that empaths healed and did very little else. It generally wasn't practical to solo with them beyond early levels, and group hunting was not all that common. As I understand it, things have changed now and empaths have a fair number of offensive-minded spells of their own. (I honestly don't know how effectively they solo like-level creatures). Some think that was a great idea, others thought empaths were getting spells that their profession should have instead. I will hopefully be too entangled in code to actually play HJ a whole bunch once its released, but I'm sure I'll have a character, and I think I may try pure support just to see what it's like. I like combat to be as strategic as possible, and adding a layer of support to the battle dynamics takes it one step further away from hack-slash-hack-slash. Do you enjoy playing classes that don't directly harm the enemy as efficiently as others but instead help group members do their thing? Do you think you'll play a character with support aspects? What design decisions make support classes thrive or fail? Goat
I generally don't like playing support classes, no. I also don't like being dependent on them, or feeling forced to be in a group that includes them (or in a group at all, sometimes). I know, it sounds like I hate 'em, but it's not quite like that. It's just that folks like me have been saddled with healer/cleric dependence in games since our days of pencil-and-paper D&D gaming, and it's wearing thin with my generation of gamers (I've been playing RPGs for the past decade and a half or so). It was easier to deal with in a PnP group, where you've got the same people every week more or less, but computer games and MMOs in particular offer the opportunity to have a much more varied experience, and I hate to see that wasted. I think options are key here; it's a good option to have some support around, but it should not be mandatory. COH/COV did a decent job of this, COV in particular, since the villains had no dedicated healer class at all, and support options were more limited. They were handy to have around, but you could and often had to do without them.
There are some good people out there who do like playing support specialists, and I have no problem with them, I only take issue with those who think that they should be an absolute necessity. Some of the most fun I've had in MMO groups were ones without a dedicated support type, it really encourages us to use tactics more and think more independently.
-Gobbo Knight
"Tie two birds together...they have four wings, but cannot fly." -Blind man, Circle of Iron
There is only 1 reason I play a chanter, it grant me instant grouping nearly all the time. Otherwise, I would have played a druid or a ranger. But instant grouping...that is nice.
If I play HJ, the first character would prolly be a solo-capable character. Then, and only then, I my start a support character. For this support character to outgrow my first character, I must have a total trust in the game and the team...it's only happen in EQ and I was disappointed in the end.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Thats okay - we understand - achievers are doers - not supporters
I find myself quite enjoying playing support characters in Guild Wars. Except for mages - I just cant get into mages - if I am going to be laying serious smack down I want to be up close and personal.
Comments
I know we've posted this before, but we seem to have a bunch of new people who may have not seen it. HJ is being built as a soloable game from the base. Instanced quests scale to the number of people in it as well as the level. The dual classing will allow classes, that will get deemed as support classes, a way to have a complimented combat class if wanted.
Don't be surprised though if the support classes are also effective in combat. Empaths(healers) in Gemstone are an extremely effective combat class. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs in charge of class abilities got some inspiration from there. Remember we're trying to break the mold on how MMOs are being done.
GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey
Yes, I do understand that, but then, if every class is effective in combat, what role does a warrior play? I myself love playing a fighter class, from basic D&D all the way to now, warriors/fighters/melee damage dealers are my main choice of classes. But MMOs basically relegate the warriors role to "movable rock with a lot of hit points". How is this game going to give me a different breed of warrior that will actually excel at combat like he should?
I will be honest, this game and Conan are the two games I've been waiting for to come out, and whichever one ends up "better" will get my money. I love the world, look and feel of Conan, as well as how they are attempting to make combat an actual visceral experience instead of mind-numbing damage-soaking. I love the customization of this game and the way the game is experienced by the players, whether you want to solo, or group. But a big thing for me will be what makes classes unique from each other, most notably the poor forgotten warrior, who currently in games does nothing that other classes can't do.
I do appreciate the timely response though. It looks like both of these games will have a staff that like to involve the population, and keep them informed. That I do like.
"I aim to Misbehave" - Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
While I'd like to answer this, I can't. I'm just on the World Team not development. They'll obviously have some role to plat, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it breaks away from the traditional meat shield with no brain that MMOs have made them into.
GM Illuminatis
World Team
Hero's Journey
It was easier to deal with in a PnP group, where you've got the same people every week more or less, but computer games and MMOs in particular offer the opportunity to have a much more varied experience, and I hate to see that wasted. I think options are key here; it's a good option to have some support around, but it should not be mandatory. COH/COV did a decent job of this, COV in particular, since the villains had no dedicated healer class at all, and support options were more limited. They were handy to have around, but you could and often had to do without them.
There are some good people out there who do like playing support specialists, and I have no problem with them, I only take issue with those who think that they should be an absolute necessity. Some of the most fun I've had in MMO groups were ones without a dedicated support type, it really encourages us to use tactics more and think more independently.
-Gobbo Knight
"Tie two birds together...they have four wings, but cannot fly." -Blind man, Circle of Iron
I guessi t depends on the class, but i do like them
My main character in EQ was a chanter.
There is only 1 reason I play a chanter, it grant me instant grouping nearly all the time. Otherwise, I would have played a druid or a ranger. But instant grouping...that is nice.
If I play HJ, the first character would prolly be a solo-capable character. Then, and only then, I my start a support character. For this support character to outgrow my first character, I must have a total trust in the game and the team...it's only happen in EQ and I was disappointed in the end.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Thats okay - we understand - achievers are doers - not supporters
I find myself quite enjoying playing support characters in Guild Wars. Except for mages - I just cant get into mages - if I am going to be laying serious smack down I want to be up close and personal.