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Maybe my memory is bad about the NGE

decadredecadre Member Posts: 88
in Star Wars Galaxies
But didn't the "focus" group say something to the effect to SOE that they wanted quick combat and stuff?

well...

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/5203

"Overall, the majority feedback we've collected from the boards and
elsewhere suggests that combat is currently perceived to resolve too
quickly, thus leaving little room for strategic choices or meaningful
attacks beyond the standard left-click shot. With the GCW becoming a
major factor in our game within the near future, we want to make sure
that the core combat system is enjoyable for most players as combat
will be a major aspect of the war."

I guess this is version 0.15 of teh rollback.


Comments

  • Neurox1Neurox1 Member Posts: 260

    Originally posted by decadre
    But didn't the "focus" group say something to the effect to SOE that they wanted quick combat and stuff?

    well...

    http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/5203

    "Overall, the majority feedback we've collected from the boards and elsewhere suggests that combat is currently perceived to resolve too quickly, thus leaving little room for strategic choices or meaningful attacks beyond the standard left-click shot. With the GCW becoming a major factor in our game within the near future, we want to make sure that the core combat system is enjoyable for most players as combat will be a major aspect of the war."

    I guess this is version 0.15 of teh rollback.


    this is one AREA that it was the PLAYERS fault , NOT sony's fault ... and ill tell you why

    people were BITCHING and MOANING about the 1 hour fights between JEDI and bounty hunters ( personally i liked them ), and SOE took that feedback and thought " hey lets structure the old FPS style we had on the back burner around our current engine",  and hence the NGE was born ...

    but sony needs a more KEEN or acute perception of whats going on ... it WASNT a TOTAL upheavel of the combat system people wanted, it was just a little quicker resolution to one vs one combat within the CURRENT  ( at the time) Turn based MMO style combat, a little tweaking if you will .... maybe sony got tired of constantly tweaking and decided to scrap the whole thing * shrugs* , but tweaking is what a game like the old SWG needed ... if sony's devs couldnt handle that , they should have passed the ball ....

    this was a matter of SOE hearing the people, but not being able to really DECIPHER what they were saying , and thats because the guys making the decisions with a large company like SOE is concerned,  ARENT GAMERS, smedly is NOT A GAMER, thats the main problem

    as as far as the current quote you pasted .. it shows that people werent looking for a FPS style combat engine .. and that why yet again they need to "upgrade" the mechanics in SWG

    it also didnt help sony thought they could capitalize on the new experimental "fps mmorpg" thing going on .. and say " we were the first to do it" and get press and praise ect.... but as we all know it backfired

  • InspGadgtInspGadgt Member Posts: 146

    Originally posted by Neurox1

    but sony needs a more KEEN or acute perception of whats going on ... it WASNT a TOTAL upheavel of the combat system people wanted, it was just a little quicker resolution to one vs one combat within the CURRENT  ( at the time) Turn based MMO style combat, a little tweaking if you will .... maybe sony got tired of constantly tweaking and decided to scrap the whole thing * shrugs* , but tweaking is what a game like the old SWG needed ... if sony's devs couldnt handle that , they should have passed the ball ....
    this was a matter of SOE hearing the people, but not being able to really DECIPHER what they were saying , and thats because the guys making the decisions with a large company like SOE is concerned,  ARENT GAMERS, smedly is NOT A GAMER, thats the main problem

    I disagree in that it is the players fault but agree to your reasoning to an extent.  Yes the players asked for faster combat resolution but as you said we didn't ask for a total revamp...just some tweaks.  SOE time and time again has over reacted to the requests of the players.  Their over reaction causes an imbalance to which they over react again trying to fix and we the players get caught in the middle of this yo-yo like ride.
  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529
    Faster combat resolution would have been to bring down buff strength.

    Oh wait.. that's 2 revamps ago.


    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
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    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • xPaladinxPaladin Member UncommonPosts: 741
    Actually, being a researcher, I'd also like to shed a little more light on focus group research.

    The groups are fairly expensive when done right, but for the most part, firms try to sell it for as cheap as possible. Reason being, companies don't really want to spend a lot of money for research. This kind of stuff, then, almost always goes to the cheapest vendor, which means really insufficient research.

    Based on how *bad* the NGE turned out to be, I would say the research was insufficient. It's hard to blame funding outright, because "fast paced action" in the Star Wars universe a la Battlefront II did *REALLY* well (sold ~500k copies when it was released in Q4/05, making it's way to being a top 10 seller for the year -- that's quite impressive).

    It also doesn't help matters that SOE just didn't get the formula right at all. There was absolutely no reason to essentially destroy over half the game the way they did. They blatantly and outright failed to consider the strengths and distinctive features of the game.


    -- xpaladin

    [MMOz]
    AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW

  • VexinVexin Member Posts: 297

    Originally posted by xPaladin
    Based on how *bad* the NGE turned out to be, I would say the research was insufficient. It's hard to blame funding outright, because "fast paced action" in the Star Wars universe a la Battlefront II did *REALLY* well (sold ~500k copies when it was released in Q4/05, making it's way to being a top 10 seller for the year -- that's quite impressive).


    The problem is that, in my opinion, the two genres simply don't mix well.  The NGE is proving that nicely (although it could be argued that SOE botched the implementation, which they obviously did).  MMO's are not about "twitch" combat, they're about, well, "evolution" is the only word that comes to mind at the moment.  The game "evolves" in an MMO, combat is part of that "evolution", not the primary focus of it.  It is a means to an end, not the end in itself.  "Twitch" combat is the primary focus in an FPS (in other words, the end itself), because they are intended to be short-term, intense (or "shock") gaming experiences, whereas MMO's are long-term and are more like a "build-up" than a "shock".  You don't typically play a FPS for hours a day, for years.

    I think turn-based combat fits the format of an MMO much more elegantly than does "twitch".  The intent behind turn-based combat is planning and strategy, two things "twitch" combat leaves little time for.

    I mean, really, is SWG:NGE really vastly different anymore than a group of people playing "Star Wars Battlefront II" on a server?  (Except, of course, that you only pay once for BF2.)

    /flameon

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    As ye SOE, so shall ye weep.

  • Agricola1Agricola1 Member UncommonPosts: 4,977
    If you think that these focus groups exist to (if they exist at all) help $OE improve SWG then you're deluded. They exist (if only in writing) to justify $medley & CO's ****y decisions, and as for "It's the players fault for bithching and moaning, as $OE was just doing what it was asked". Then I suppose there'll be a rollback very soon since that's what 90% of the players have been bitching and moaning for, for the last six months. That is unless the "bitching and moaning" theory is just re-directing the blame for the company responsible (and paid) for the development of SWG?

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

    CS Lewis

  • Neurox1Neurox1 Member Posts: 260

    Originally posted by Vexin

    Originally posted by xPaladin
    Based on how *bad* the NGE turned out to be, I would say the research was insufficient. It's hard to blame funding outright, because "fast paced action" in the Star Wars universe a la Battlefront II did *REALLY* well (sold ~500k copies when it was released in Q4/05, making it's way to being a top 10 seller for the year -- that's quite impressive).


    The problem is that, in my opinion, the two genres simply don't mix well.  The NGE is proving that nicely (although it could be argued that SOE botched the implementation, which they obviously did).  MMO's are not about "twitch" combat, they're about, well, "evolution" is the only word that comes to mind at the moment.  The game "evolves" in an MMO, combat is part of that "evolution", not the primary focus of it.  It is a means to an end, not the end in itself.  "Twitch" combat is the primary focus in an FPS (in other words, the end itself), because they are intended to be short-term, intense (or "shock") gaming experiences, whereas MMO's are long-term and are more like a "build-up" than a "shock".  You don't typically play a FPS for hours a day, for years.

    I think turn-based combat fits the format of an MMO much more elegantly than does "twitch".  The intent behind turn-based combat is planning and strategy, two things "twitch" combat leaves little time for.

    I mean, really, is SWG:NGE really vastly different anymore than a group of people playing "Star Wars Battlefront II" on a server?  (Except, of course, that you only pay once for BF2.)

    /flameon



    i understand your point completely, and i agree that in essence .. an MMO does posses an " evolutionary" spririt ... from the progression of one's character, to the constantly changing gameplay mechanics and fantasical world its set in ...

    but i dont think MMO's HAVE to be limited to a turn based style, or have to be saturated with emphasis on  strategy and planning... they can be whatever a developer wants them to be .. and as long as they take place in a persistant ficitonal world where any and all change is registered .. in the form of one's fortune and effect brought on by a player's action

    having said that ... i do agree that, for the most part most of the veteran MMO players are not " twitch" game players and do appreciate a more detailed and "calm" setting for the implementation for any strategic thinking to take place in ...

    the problem with SWG is not so much that an FPS system wouldnt necessarily work, but that the one implemented in SWG was archaic ... and too simplistic ...

    perhaps older, less fast paced albeit DEEP thinkers arent acustomed to, or dont fancy the twitch style of an FPS game ( the monotonous task of constantly having to target your opponent manually gets frustrasting and nerve wracking ) but it still could have found a common ground, where it could in fact appease both sides of this equation ....

    and the evolution you speak of can take place even within that type of mechanic in that the aquisition of skill and more damaging offense and a better defense is still present ..

    the thing is the veteran players became acustomed to the turn based style. they became comfortable with it, and to reconstitute combat as FPS without the addition of paced strategy and mechanics is where SOE went wrong ...the NGE's shallowness and simplicity turned off the vets .. and without any redeeming depth of combat mechanic eventually made them tired of it forcing many to quit for that reason alone ...

    ultimately i think we can BOTH agree .. on the idea that the developers within SOE who came up with the NGE werent thinking on a detailed or deep enough level to really implement a change which could be absorbed positively by the veteran player base ...so really the problem , lied in their innefficieny and shallow thinking

    but of course this doesnt address the removal of favored professions and the destruction of resources, weapons and materials players had  slaved months and months and in some cases years to obtain ... there still is no LOGIC which can shed light on that ... unless one does believe that SOE was trying to " remove" its veteran player base to make way for new blood ...

  • xPaladinxPaladin Member UncommonPosts: 741

    Originally posted by Vexin


    The problem is that, in my opinion, the two genres simply don't mix well.  The NGE is proving that nicely (although it could be argued that SOE botched the implementation, which they obviously did).  MMO's are not about "twitch" combat, they're about, well, "evolution" is the only word that comes to mind at the moment.  The game "evolves" in an MMO, combat is part of that "evolution", not the primary focus of it.  It is a means to an end, not the end in itself.  "Twitch" combat is the primary focus in an FPS (in other words, the end itself), because they are intended to be short-term, intense (or "shock") gaming experiences, whereas MMO's are long-term and are more like a "build-up" than a "shock".  You don't typically play a FPS for hours a day, for years.

    I think turn-based combat fits the format of an MMO much more elegantly than does "twitch".  The intent behind turn-based combat is planning and strategy, two things "twitch" combat leaves little time for.


    Well, you have a good point, but I slightly disagree with you. Thing is, MMORPGs have significant barriers to entry.

    WoW is one of the first games to figure out how to unlock a good number of those barriers, but it's really only the beginning. WoW is *far* from perfect, but look at the things it does "right":

    - Fast paced combat, with an RPG style,
    - Steady leveling that always sees benefit with each login,
    - Emphasis on PvP,
    - Content that requires intense tactical teamwork, and most importantly
    - A polished experience from start to end.

    SWG had some aspects of that kind of gameplay, but the bugs and very poor experience were a big time barrier to entry. Furthermore, tactical teamwork was never an issue in SWG outside of PvP, despite "AI enhancements" such as the now-laughable "stalking AI".

    In addition to the social settings, there are other, subtle things that SWG is capable of that even WoW isn't. But it is SOE that refuses to see the full potential of their game, and it is their mistake to make.


    I mean, really, is SWG:NGE really vastly different anymore than a group of people playing "Star Wars Battlefront II" on a server?  (Except, of course, that you only pay once for BF2.)

    Actually, it is, just not in a good way. At least Battlefront 2 features a robust shooter system. In comparison, NGE feels like a really cheaply done (dare I say "hacked") FPS. In fact, the NGE feels more like a cheap flash game, and I think most gamers can figure that out easily.

    As a small-time wannabe designer, I can see how twitch and turn-based can intermingle in a very elegant fashion. It's not so much having a MMOFPS, but rather, having the speed of an MMOFPS apply to a turn-based game.

    -- xpaladin

    [MMOz]
    AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW

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