Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, you can't say we didn't try and warn you. God know we tried, but I've given up.
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
MS has a reputation for abandoning Mythica and dumping Asherons Call
at least SOE doesnt "pull the plug" on their games
Originally posted by Gresteh
If we look to the western market we can see that (NCSoft) have only one big hit: CoH/CoV and the numbers of suscribers to those games are much smaler than the numbers of suscribers of SOE games.
So if we focus on the western market, SOE is a better choice than NCsoft.
in defense of NCSoft, GuildWars sold over 1 million copies in the 1st 5 months
simple sigil bought back rights from MS because MS was trying to rush the game, and they took the publishing rihgs and gave them to SoE, this in fact gave sigil more controll over there game, and SOE has none.
Microsoft is very focused on Xbox 360 -- as big as Vanguard is, their console business involves BILLIONS of dollars. After talking for quite a while with upper management at Microsoft Game Studios, it made the most sense for both of us to do this separation. They can focus on building their platforms (Windows, Vista, Xbox360), as well as their other titles, but we can now do what we need to do to take an ambitious title like Vanguard and use our expertise and experience to shape to an even greater extent it into the game it needs to be. We now have the time we need/decide to keep the game in beta until its truly ready -- there is no risk of being rushed out, which is something large titles like MMOGs often face.
1) I've read posts that have leaked that say the beta tests aren't going that well and that they're not getting better very quickly. Many will say, "That's what beta is for". Actually no. Beta is for testing "feature complete" software to eliminate bugs, not to test new features that have just been added. I've written software for the past 15 years and have seen comments like these from internal and external testers and the software doesn't sound like it will be near ready for the projected release.
2) I think the state of the game wasn't near where MS wanted it to be this close to release. No, MS has not done well with the MMO market, but I believe they want to and don't feel they can afford another bad release.
As for the market share charts on MMO, I would hazzard a guess that EQ, EQII and SWG all count station passes as a subscriber. This inflates SOE's numbers by at least a factor or 3. Last subscriber count for SWG that I heard was closer to 40k. I'm sure that's not 1.5% of the market. If you notice on the pie chart, each of SOE's games are about 1.5% of the market. Do you really believe that SWG has as many subscribers as EQII. You'd definately have to be smoking crack to come up with that conclusion.
I don't actively bash SOE, but I've seen them scam their customers on a regular basis ever since EQ came out. By the way, that was when supposedly they had no control over the game then also, when Verant still supposedly ran things. I can garantee that the publicity about SOE having little say in what goes on with Vangard is a load of crap.
I hope Vangard does do well for Brad's sake. I think he really wants to create a great game. However, I don't think it will happen. SOE just can't leave well enough alone. SOE is hurting right now. They need online subscriptions from any where they can get them. Why else would they bring on another fantasy MMO that directly competes with two (EQ and EQII) they already have.
With the possible dissapointing numbers from the PS3 and Blue Ray and their summer movie tent pole "The Da'Vinci Code" all receiving mediocre to bad reviews, SOE and Sony in general are scrambling to remain composed. I wouldn't buy anything their currently pushing and certainly wouldn't believe a single word they say or their associated company say.
Originally posted by Tuvarin My thoughts are that MS did dump Sigil. 1) I've read posts that have leaked that say the beta tests aren't going that well.... ... The disgrunted and discontent always leak negative posts. I've written software for the past 15 years.... ... Yes, I believe you. Now, had you said you did MMORPG development for the past 15 years, that would have been far more impressive. 2) I think the state of the game wasn't near where MS wanted it to be this close to release.... ... Correct. They wanted to rush the game out before it was ready. I don't actively bash SOE, but I've seen them scam their customers on a regular basis ever since EQ came out. ... *Ahem* THAT kind of statement is actively bashing. I wouldn't buy anything their [*they're* = SOE] currently pushing and certainly wouldn't believe a single word they say or their associated company say. ... Then you openly admit you have nothing positive to say about SOE.
Microsoft is very focused on Xbox 360 -- as big as Vanguard is, their console business involves BILLIONS of dollars. After talking for quite a while with upper management at Microsoft Game Studios, it made the most sense for both of us to do this separation. They can focus on building their platforms (Windows, Vista, Xbox360), as well as their other titles, but we can now do what we need to do to take an ambitious title like Vanguard and use our expertise and experience to shape to an even greater extent it into the game it needs to be. We now have the time we need/decide to keep the game in beta until its truly ready -- there is no risk of being rushed out, which is something large titles like MMOGs often face. --Brad McQuaid, CEO, Sigil.
... And there's the smoking gun. A tacit admission that Microsoft wanted to rush Vanguard to retail release before Sigil felt it would be ready.
... Clearly, SOE will not force the release Vanguard before Sigil feels it is ready: "...there is no risk of being rushed out...."
If you would like information about how Sigil has responded to this situation, you might even try reading the following new FAQs (Section 36) added to the SilkyVenom list:
The question is NOT who was interested in producing VSOH, but rather who was going to give Sigil a better deal. For all we know Sigil has been talking with NCSoft and other companies, but SOE just gave them a better deal (more money, royalties, longer milestones, etc etc). Since we dont know what really happened behind the doors, everything is pure speculation. I wouldnt even throw away a theory about Sigil dumping MS becuase SOE gave them a much better deal. In reality... who knows.
Originally posted by SpiritofGame I don't actively bash SOE, but I've seen them scam their customers on a regular basis ever since EQ came out. ... *Ahem* THAT kind of statement is actively bashing. I wouldn't buy anything their [*they're* = SOE] currently pushing and certainly wouldn't believe a single word they say or their associated company say. ... Then you openly admit you have nothing positive to say about SOE.
... Clearly, SOE will not force the release Vanguard before Sigil feels it is ready: "...there is no risk of being rushed out...."
If you would like information about how Sigil has responded to this situation, you might even try reading the following new FAQs (Section 36) added to the SilkyVenom list:
You are correct, most of what I posted was purely my opinion. Even my grammar mistakes . However, my statement about not bashing SOE, then stating that they've scammed their customers time and again is fact. If you want to get down to it, the fact that they distributed rootkits on their music CD's and then installed them without warning was not only questionable but absolutely malicious. I don't see how you can say that saying, "SOE scams it's customers" is bashing. ITS A FACT that's been documents often and continues to happen.
Like I said, I wish Brad the best. I just think that everyone that thinks that SOE will sit idly by and be content just hosting this game is naive. I may be wrong, but SOE's track record is the ten ton hammer that's on my side.
You are correct, most of what I posted was purely my opinion. Even my grammar mistakes . However, my statement about not bashing SOE, then stating that they've scammed their customers time and again is fact. If you want to get down to it, the fact that they distributed rootkits on their music CD's and then installed them without warning was not only questionable but absolutely malicious. I don't see how you can say that saying, "SOE scams it's customers" is bashing. ITS A FACT that's been documents often and continues to happen.
Like I said, I wish Brad the best. I just think that everyone that thinks that SOE will sit idly by and be content just hosting this game is naive. I may be wrong, but SOE's track record is the ten ton hammer that's on my side.
Just my opinion
Tuv
Ive read in the newspaper about Sony's rootkit CDs - it would install some software without your concent, often crippling your computer to a point where you had to reformat or reinstall windows. I will fight ANY attempt by a corp (or anyone for that matter, including my parents) to control my life, to force me DO what i do not want to do. If they want to fight piracy as they claim they do, fight it by making quality product and not charging it so much that I have to sell my left arm and my left testicle to purchase it - 40-60$ for a music CD is RIDICULOUS.
PS: I think they were even sued for installing that virus-like software. But i dunno the details.
Originally posted by GungaDin Originally posted by ajaxx My gut feeling is that MS felt Vanguard was a stinker. There have been a lot of leaks of Vanguard being poorly recieved in beta. I just don't think MS would let a game they've funded go, if they thought it would generate a lot of money. Brad said MS was concentrating their efforts on the XBOX360 and forgetting about MMO's, than the next week MS turns around and provides funding for Age of Conan on Windows Vista? Doesn't make a lot of sense. MS dumped Sigil, forcing Brad to turn to the darkside.
I agree with you Ajaxx. I think Microsoft saw AOC as a better investment and pulled out. This forced Vanguard to look to SOE for backing. Simple as that. If MS thought Vanguard was that good then I don't see why they would reverse their thinking. MS is clearly looking for a top notch MMORPG and Vanguard didnt sit well with them. Microsoft wanted to make Vanguard Vista only. This presents many problems for Sigil. They would have had a limited playerbase for quite some time and far more meddling than any other co-publisher on the planet. The release date for Vista has moved more than the San Andreas fault. Sigil would have been waiting on MS to finally release Vista. Vista was supposed to be out already, now MS is saying next year. Sigil bought back the MS stake in the publishing and went shopping for a new publisher.
Originally posted by Trystan365 Originally posted by GungaDin Originally posted by ajaxx My gut feeling is that MS felt Vanguard was a stinker. There have been a lot of leaks of Vanguard being poorly recieved in beta. I just don't think MS would let a game they've funded go, if they thought it would generate a lot of money. Brad said MS was concentrating their efforts on the XBOX360 and forgetting about MMO's, than the next week MS turns around and provides funding for Age of Conan on Windows Vista? Doesn't make a lot of sense. MS dumped Sigil, forcing Brad to turn to the darkside.
I agree with you Ajaxx. I think Microsoft saw AOC as a better investment and pulled out. This forced Vanguard to look to SOE for backing. Simple as that. If MS thought Vanguard was that good then I don't see why they would reverse their thinking. MS is clearly looking for a top notch MMORPG and Vanguard didnt sit well with them. Microsoft wanted to make Vanguard Vista only. This presents many problems for Sigil. They would have had a limited playerbase for quite some time and far more meddling than any other co-publisher on the planet. The release date for Vista has moved more than the San Andreas fault. Sigil would have been waiting on MS to finally release Vista. Vista was supposed to be out already, now MS is saying next year. Sigil bought back the MS stake in the publishing and went shopping for a new publisher.
theres more than that ... you guys need to go speak with your beta testers ... M$ saw the game in god aweful shape and put pressure on sigil
Comments
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, you can't say we didn't try and warn you. God know we tried, but I've given up.
Hope it works out for you.
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, you can't say we didn't try and warn you.
Hope it works out for you.
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, you can't say we didn't try and warn you.
Hope it works out for you.
Well, I didn't jump ship (dont like much of what Vanguard offers), but I think you overestimate how many people like the "oldskool EQ" ultra grindfest. They really are not doing much that is truely innovative, but actually going back to some pretty old and unpopular ideas. It's going to be popular among a certain crowd, but whether it remains the same game has doubts and with the exodus of many that would have played it pre-SOE, I'm sure it won't be "the game" to play or rake in boatloads of cash. Don't worry, you won't see me there, I plan on playing a truely very innovative game that is coming out next year, and I'll probably get TCoS in the meantime. For you guys planning on playin, I hope that the games works out for you, but I'd be cautious with SOE. And if it gets pushed out early, with tons of bugs and then changes start being made.....
Well, you can't say we didn't try and warn you.
Hope it works out for you.
in defense of NCSoft, GuildWars sold over 1 million copies in the 1st 5 months
http://games.ign.com/articles/653/653128p1.html
GuildWars is not a mmorpg but it is a online game using many servers
EQ2 fan sites
Aradune had this say about leaving Microsoft (I added the bold)
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1039996&postcount=198
EQ2 fan sites
My thoughts are that MS did dump Sigil.
1) I've read posts that have leaked that say the beta tests aren't going that well and that they're not getting better very quickly. Many will say, "That's what beta is for". Actually no. Beta is for testing "feature complete" software to eliminate bugs, not to test new features that have just been added. I've written software for the past 15 years and have seen comments like these from internal and external testers and the software doesn't sound like it will be near ready for the projected release.
2) I think the state of the game wasn't near where MS wanted it to be this close to release. No, MS has not done well with the MMO market, but I believe they want to and don't feel they can afford another bad release.
As for the market share charts on MMO, I would hazzard a guess that EQ, EQII and SWG all count station passes as a subscriber. This inflates SOE's numbers by at least a factor or 3. Last subscriber count for SWG that I heard was closer to 40k. I'm sure that's not 1.5% of the market. If you notice on the pie chart, each of SOE's games are about 1.5% of the market. Do you really believe that SWG has as many subscribers as EQII. You'd definately have to be smoking crack to come up with that conclusion.
I don't actively bash SOE, but I've seen them scam their customers on a regular basis ever since EQ came out. By the way, that was when supposedly they had no control over the game then also, when Verant still supposedly ran things. I can garantee that the publicity about SOE having little say in what goes on with Vangard is a load of crap.
I hope Vangard does do well for Brad's sake. I think he really wants to create a great game. However, I don't think it will happen. SOE just can't leave well enough alone. SOE is hurting right now. They need online subscriptions from any where they can get them. Why else would they bring on another fantasy MMO that directly competes with two (EQ and EQII) they already have.
With the possible dissapointing numbers from the PS3 and Blue Ray and their summer movie tent pole "The Da'Vinci Code" all receiving mediocre to bad reviews, SOE and Sony in general are scrambling to remain composed. I wouldn't buy anything their currently pushing and certainly wouldn't believe a single word they say or their associated company say.
Just my 2 cents,
Tuv
Microsoft is very focused on Xbox 360 -- as big as Vanguard is, their console business involves BILLIONS of dollars. After talking for quite a while with upper management at Microsoft Game Studios, it made the most sense for both of us to do this separation. They can focus on building their platforms (Windows, Vista, Xbox360), as well as their other titles, but we can now do what we need to do to take an ambitious title like Vanguard and use our expertise and experience to shape to an even greater extent it into the game it needs to be. We now have the time we need/decide to keep the game in beta until its truly ready -- there is no risk of being rushed out, which is something large titles like MMOGs often face. --Brad McQuaid, CEO, Sigil.
... And there's the smoking gun. A tacit admission that Microsoft wanted to rush Vanguard to retail release before Sigil felt it would be ready.
... Clearly, SOE will not force the release Vanguard before Sigil feels it is ready: "...there is no risk of being rushed out...."
If you would like information about how Sigil has responded to this situation, you might even try reading the following new FAQs (Section 36) added to the SilkyVenom list:
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=791
~ Ancient Membership ~
The question is NOT who was interested in producing VSOH, but rather who was going to give Sigil a better deal. For all we know Sigil has been talking with NCSoft and other companies, but SOE just gave them a better deal (more money, royalties, longer milestones, etc etc). Since we dont know what really happened behind the doors, everything is pure speculation. I wouldnt even throw away a theory about Sigil dumping MS becuase SOE gave them a much better deal. In reality... who knows.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
... Clearly, SOE will not force the release Vanguard before Sigil feels it is ready: "...there is no risk of being rushed out...."
If you would like information about how Sigil has responded to this situation, you might even try reading the following new FAQs (Section 36) added to the SilkyVenom list:
http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=791
You are correct, most of what I posted was purely my opinion. Even my grammar mistakes
Like I said, I wish Brad the best. I just think that everyone that thinks that SOE will sit idly by and be content just hosting this game is naive. I may be wrong, but SOE's track record is the ten ton hammer that's on my side.
Just my opinion
Tuv
PS: I think they were even sued for installing that virus-like software. But i dunno the details.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Microsoft wanted to make Vanguard Vista only. This presents many problems for Sigil. They would have had a limited playerbase for quite some time and far more meddling than any other co-publisher on the planet. The release date for Vista has moved more than the San Andreas fault. Sigil would have been waiting on MS to finally release Vista. Vista was supposed to be out already, now MS is saying next year. Sigil bought back the MS stake in the publishing and went shopping for a new publisher.
Microsoft wanted to make Vanguard Vista only. This presents many problems for Sigil. They would have had a limited playerbase for quite some time and far more meddling than any other co-publisher on the planet. The release date for Vista has moved more than the San Andreas fault. Sigil would have been waiting on MS to finally release Vista. Vista was supposed to be out already, now MS is saying next year. Sigil bought back the MS stake in the publishing and went shopping for a new publisher.
theres more than that ... you guys need to go speak with your beta testers ... M$ saw the game in god aweful shape and put pressure on sigil