Originally posted by Shayde If there's CD.. will people standing in front of a caster break line of sight?
You mean LoS, like if a caster starts casting a spell does it get interrupted if you hide behind a meat shield? I'd have to think yes. To the game there would be an obstruction there, be it a wall or a building or an army of Orc enemies.
Originally posted by Size-Twelve I think CD DOES add potential for griefing. If some high levels want to world PvP that's bloody awesome, but to wage a 500 man war outside a popular newb zone which basically prevents me from leaving the area for 2 or 3 hours while it's going on due to enemy collision detection.....yeah I see a problem with that.
The difference is in a non-CD scenario, I'd get whacked, but eventually I could go on about my way. With CD, I'm stuck where I'm at, even if I offer nothing to the battle. Maybe I'd be better off in an instanced scenario trying to win against even level players, and doing my faction some good, but instead I'm pinned inside some little hut, unable to escape due to the massive black orc in front of the door. Will this situation eventually end......yeah, of course. I will be able to leave at some point, but is it 10 minutes away, an hour, 3 hours...?
Call it griefing, or whatever, but the potential for more problems IS there, whether you want to see it or not. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? Like I've said from the beginning, I'm not sold on the idea. I've never had a problem PvPing with no collision detection in the past, in either FPS or MMO. Not having it has never taken anything away from a game IMO. It could work well if pulled off, tanks protecting healers with a body shield was a good example, but just because something "sounds" good in theory, doesn't mean it will work that way in practice.
Some people will be worry warts wringing their hands on what might be out of fear or out of hidden agenda. CD allows for some real tactical combat (non of this diode type CD as some suggest) based on positional exploitation. The current aggro modle is hardly satisifying to me and CD related tactics are much more interesting.
Why don't you give it a try first? What is your real objection? I have my doubts. In any case. you have a lot of games without CD, let this one experiment and let time tell which is better.
Originally posted by Size-Twelve You mean LoS, like if a caster starts casting a spell does it get interrupted if you hide behind a meat shield? I'd have to think yes. To the game there would be an obstruction there, be it a wall or a building or an army of Orc enemies.
I think it would be better if the game would let you finish your spell even if you lose LOS, but that it would then go in a straight line from you to the original target, so it would probably hit the meat shield. More 'realisitc' IMO, and makes the tank have to actually soak the damage. If you had wow-like casting you could spend 1.5 out of 3 seconds on your spell, then someome steps in front for an instant and you lose it, so you target them, but the back guy steps in front and you lose it again, and then they're all on top of you without you finishing a spell.
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Some people will be worry warts wringing their hands on what might be out of fear or out of hidden agenda. CD allows for some real tactical combat (non of this diode type CD as some suggest) based on positional exploitation. The current aggro modle is hardly satisifying to me and CD related tactics are much more interesting. Why don't you give it a try first? What is your real objection? I have my doubts. In any case. you have a lot of games without CD, let this one experiment and let time tell which is better.
Well, I guess you're responding to me since it's my post you quoted up there. I'm not worried, and I don't have a hidden agenda, lol. The purpose of this thread was for a real debate on collision detection. I think it's already been shown, the positive things CD can bring to a game like this. Improved tactics, meatshielding, and more realism are all good things, and they have already been discussed. It's not hard to imagine the positives.
However, there are also negatives. Bandwidth was already mentioned, so I tried to think up some griefing scenarios which could potentially cause problems. I'm sure there are lots of other factors that we haven't thought up yet as well. It wouldn't be a very helpful discussion if everyone was on the same side, and all we talked about was how cool CD would be, and then circle jerked around the projected release date.
So please, relax. I've no hidden agenda, and wouldn't be here if I didn't want WAR to be as good a game as it could be.
"Enemy only" CD does not cause extra griefing... because you can have your friends kill the person annoying you. 500 enemy block off a newb town... (as opposed to just killing the newbs) call in 500 allies to kill them for you. Ta Da.
If allies have CD then yes, you can/will have griefing... also think of how much of a pain in the arse it would be when a 100+ person raid wipes and all rez back at the same bind point. Ouch... the person in the middle of that mob is in trouble.
Historicly CD has not broken LOS. They are completely different things. However, In some games if a projectile hits an object with CD it will be stopped. I doubt they allow player driven CD to break LOS, otherwise you'd have some really badly gimped casters. However,Stuff like trees, rocks, wall and such should break LOS and also have CD. I think we all grew tired of archers hiding inside trees... or behind tress and shooting through... Heck, it almost ruined DAoC until they put in /last attacker and /face.
Having a bunch of allies kill all the griefers works ok if the sides are even, but what happens if server pops are not balanced? Early in WoW I played on the Lothar server with 15,000 alliance, and only 9,500 horde, lol. If you take a scenario like that and add collision detection, there could be problems.
In a game like WOAR, I'd like to see fewer guard spawns, meaning less safe areas. Could you imagine an alliance group some 500 strong, raiding ogrimmar and blocking everyone in the Auction House or something? Without guard spawns, and with an uneven server population, a coordinated attack could lock people in there for a long time. You also can't rule out coordination on either side. If large guilds on both sides wanted to collude together, they could block instance entrances or something to make life miserable for rival guilds.
Originally posted by Size-Twelve Could you imagine an alliance group some 500 strong, raiding ogrimmar and blocking everyone in the Auction House or something? Without guard spawns, and with an uneven server population, a coordinated attack could lock people in there for a long time.
No, a coordinated attack wouldn't do any good, the only way to block people in would be to not attack, just stand around and hope your healers keep you up while the 'blocked' people attack their way out. Sounds like an attempt like that would be sweet for any mages 'trapped' to start spamming AOEs for free honor points, there's no way that healers are going to be able to keep people up in a situation like that when there will be such insane lag (I tried a 100 or so person raid on Org before I left WOW, it was like a slideshow). The master plan would end up with a big pile of dead bodies who foolishly didn't even fight before blizzard, hurricane, rain of fire, etc. tore them to shreds. If they do fight, then all you have to do to escape is just die, then you can run back and res outside of the AH and laugh at their 'clever' plan.
Plus you're having to set up the game rules specifically for that to happen anyway - I don't expect that capital cities will be free of guards. And I don't think they plan to set up the game such that you have undefended areas that are mostly PVE oriented (your guardless auction house) sitting in PVP-enabled areas.
Collision detection, when done intelligently, is the way to go. Actually I guess it's not all one or the other. I mean, collision where it's needed but not to block people into buldings, etc. It makes you think about how tyou handle mobs, too. If you get backed into a corner, you die. I like anything that makes you think in a game!
After thinking through the pros and cons of CD, I've voted yes, if done correctly it's going to makethe PvP just a little more special, no more mage run through the middle of you and spams a slowing or AoE attack, they would have to move round, or jump over you?
I do think though that it should only count in live zones, were it tags you for PvP as it has been said one side of the river your PvP marked keep to the other and your not.
Then again it all raises questions of blocking and so forth, and yet again two groups say, one wants to go in to an area and the otehr is blocking the entire entry, your going to start combat anyway because of who they are, healers can heal but archers can hit healers behind and damadge no matter what it is is damadge, put in the moral you get from it a few well used special moves on a player the heals are not going to keep up,
To balance it and make it work would be a dream come true, somthing else that adds a edge of just how good the game is, to not do it correctly would damadge everything this game has going for it.
Im parying and hoping that they get this right and it does stay in the game.
Considering the potential mass appeal of this game, it would make room for a lot of griefing and exploiting. You might have the occasional "drunken dwarven human wall" in Khaz-a-Karak blocking everyday business. In open PvP areas I'd say you should be able to have collision derection, but not in trade areas or closed areas where merchants or vital NPCs can be blocked. So I voted "situational".
Ya I would have to say situational CD for sure. In PvP and PvE it would be quite awesome oh and to respond to someone that asked about Raiding. Yes there will be some form of raiding in the game however it seems like they are focusing on making the items that you get from raiding only good for raiding or you get cool stuff like titles but nothing that will effect the RvR they learned from their past mistakes.
Anyone who wants GREAT pvp will say yay for CD. Sure it might cause some griefing here and there but if you cant handle few idiots then you really shouldnt play MMO's at all. Anyway, griefers will be there, CD or not.
Originally posted by busdriver Anyone who wants GREAT pvp will say yay for CD. Sure it might cause some griefing here and there but if you cant handle few idiots then you really shouldnt play MMO's at all. Anyway, griefers will be there, CD or not.
Comments
Some people will be worry warts wringing their hands on what might be out of fear or out of hidden agenda. CD allows for some real tactical combat (non of this diode type CD as some suggest) based on positional exploitation. The current aggro modle is hardly satisifying to me and CD related tactics are much more interesting.
Why don't you give it a try first? What is your real objection? I have my doubts. In any case. you have a lot of games without CD, let this one experiment and let time tell which is better.
I think it would be better if the game would let you finish your spell even if you lose LOS, but that it would then go in a straight line from you to the original target, so it would probably hit the meat shield. More 'realisitc' IMO, and makes the tank have to actually soak the damage. If you had wow-like casting you could spend 1.5 out of 3 seconds on your spell, then someome steps in front for an instant and you lose it, so you target them, but the back guy steps in front and you lose it again, and then they're all on top of you without you finishing a spell.
However, there are also negatives. Bandwidth was already mentioned, so I tried to think up some griefing scenarios which could potentially cause problems. I'm sure there are lots of other factors that we haven't thought up yet as well. It wouldn't be a very helpful discussion if everyone was on the same side, and all we talked about was how cool CD would be, and then circle jerked around the projected release date.
So please, relax. I've no hidden agenda, and wouldn't be here if I didn't want WAR to be as good a game as it could be.
"Enemy only" CD does not cause extra griefing... because you can have your friends kill the person annoying you. 500 enemy block off a newb town... (as opposed to just killing the newbs) call in 500 allies to kill them for you. Ta Da.
If allies have CD then yes, you can/will have griefing... also think of how much of a pain in the arse it would be when a 100+ person raid wipes and all rez back at the same bind point. Ouch... the person in the middle of that mob is in trouble.
Historicly CD has not broken LOS. They are completely different things. However, In some games if a projectile hits an object with CD it will be stopped. I doubt they allow player driven CD to break LOS, otherwise you'd have some really badly gimped casters. However,Stuff like trees, rocks, wall and such should break LOS and also have CD. I think we all grew tired of archers hiding inside trees... or behind tress and shooting through... Heck, it almost ruined DAoC until they put in /last attacker and /face.
Having a bunch of allies kill all the griefers works ok if the sides are even, but what happens if server pops are not balanced? Early in WoW I played on the Lothar server with 15,000 alliance, and only 9,500 horde, lol. If you take a scenario like that and add collision detection, there could be problems.
In a game like WOAR, I'd like to see fewer guard spawns, meaning less safe areas. Could you imagine an alliance group some 500 strong, raiding ogrimmar and blocking everyone in the Auction House or something? Without guard spawns, and with an uneven server population, a coordinated attack could lock people in there for a long time. You also can't rule out coordination on either side. If large guilds on both sides wanted to collude together, they could block instance entrances or something to make life miserable for rival guilds.
====================
Remember man that passes by,
as you are now so once was I.
And as I am so must you be,
prepare yourself to follow me.
No, a coordinated attack wouldn't do any good, the only way to block people in would be to not attack, just stand around and hope your healers keep you up while the 'blocked' people attack their way out. Sounds like an attempt like that would be sweet for any mages 'trapped' to start spamming AOEs for free honor points, there's no way that healers are going to be able to keep people up in a situation like that when there will be such insane lag (I tried a 100 or so person raid on Org before I left WOW, it was like a slideshow). The master plan would end up with a big pile of dead bodies who foolishly didn't even fight before blizzard, hurricane, rain of fire, etc. tore them to shreds. If they do fight, then all you have to do to escape is just die, then you can run back and res outside of the AH and laugh at their 'clever' plan.
Plus you're having to set up the game rules specifically for that to happen anyway - I don't expect that capital cities will be free of guards. And I don't think they plan to set up the game such that you have undefended areas that are mostly PVE oriented (your guardless auction house) sitting in PVP-enabled areas.
I do think though that it should only count in live zones, were it tags you for PvP as it has been said one side of the river your PvP marked keep to the other and your not.
Then again it all raises questions of blocking and so forth, and yet again two groups say, one wants to go in to an area and the otehr is blocking the entire entry, your going to start combat anyway because of who they are, healers can heal but archers can hit healers behind and damadge no matter what it is is damadge, put in the moral you get from it a few well used special moves on a player the heals are not going to keep up,
To balance it and make it work would be a dream come true, somthing else that adds a edge of just how good the game is, to not do it correctly would damadge everything this game has going for it.
Im parying and hoping that they get this right and it does stay in the game.
Die Noctique, By Day and Night