Originally posted by Toodles WHat s sh*ton of you clusterf*cks don't take in to account is that DAOC was released a year after trammel was. DAOC came new to the scene sporting a whole new type of pvp. Anarchy Online was just before that. Many of us hard core fel-side pvp'ers were foaming at the mouths when our friends or guildmates started telling us about new games with far better graphics being developed. Soon, 1 or 2 would be invited to a beta, then they would come back to us and give us all kinds of juicy info. I Loved pvp and IDOC camping in Fel. Nothing will ever beat that for me in any game. However, the carebear turn UO took and the release of DAOC a year later coupled with EQ buying out Origin - well you had a 1-2-3 punch knocking all the wind out of whatever sail UO had still going for it. There were alot of reasons UO began to decline:
Age Competition Arguments in dev. Rule changes etc.
It's not linked to just 1 thing.
I call forum foul. Bringing facts into a highly opinionated debate is uncalled for!
I wasn't mad about PvP, it was just the change that came with AoS that bothered me. Seems you had to be rich in order to get the new things necessary just to be any good, even in PvE.
Actually UO had a steady increase in subs after trammel release, even with all the little rebelous kids leaving because they couldnt grief newbs anymore.
Six months after Trammel was released, the game had only grown by 15,000 subscriptions, which is nearly insignificant considering the game had already grown to 185,000 subscriptions without Trammel.
So yes, it did continue to grow at reduced rate and for a short while after Trammel, but how much of that was due to the success and recognition from the previous couple of years? Shortly after that Ultima Online stopped growing and on average it flatlined during the rest of it's existance and then even began gonig downhill after Age of Shadows.
Originally posted by Gameloading Trammel didn't scare people away. it was Everquest that drawed players away from UO. UO was old and outdated.
You're right, Trammel did not scare people away overnight, but what it did do is significantly alter the overall gameplay and competitiveness of the game forever, which over time has proven to do nothing for the game growth wise - just as the graph shows. Of course there are many factors, but quite simply, it is a fact that shortly after Trammel was released, Ultima Online stopped growing.
Actually UO had a steady increase in subs after trammel release, even with all the little rebelous kids leaving because they couldnt grief newbs anymore.
Six months after Trammel was released, the game had only grown by 15,000 subscriptions, which is nearly insignificant considering the game had already grown to 185,000 subscriptions without Trammel.
So yes, it did continue to grow at reduced rate and for a short while after Trammel, but how much of that was due to the success and recognition from the previous couple of years? Shortly after that Ultima Online stopped growing and on average it flatlined during the rest of it's existance and then even began gonig downhill after Age of Shadows.
EA removed the game from UO.
EA and Richard Garriott clashed game big time over the game. If EA would have let Richard continue as he had been doing things would have been fine.
Originally posted by Gameloading Trammel didn't scare people away. it was Everquest that drawed players away from UO. UO was old and outdated.
You're right, Trammel did not scare people away overnight, but what it did do is significantly alter the overall gameplay and competitiveness of the game forever, which over time has proven to do nothing for the game growth wise - just as the graph shows. Of course there are many factors, but quite simply, it is a fact that shortly after Trammel was released, Ultima Online stopped growing.
Well you are just trying to fit facts into your theory that dont exist. You can look at the chart on mmorpgchart.com and see the numbers for yourself. There is not a single game that doesnt have some drop in subs after 4yrs. In addition the PK's were leaving UO before the release of trammel when they heard the new expansion was coming. Also the game and continued to see increased subs fully 1 year after its release.
So even with all the PK's cried, moaned and quit 6 months prior thru after its release, still the game was increasing its subs.
The easy deduction to be made is that if the game was released with Trammel in the start, how much more popular would it have been. You can see how popular EQ was. It was the griefer/pks that killed UO along with its age.
They went from having not enough land for housing/population to having way too much land.
Since the world doubled in size plus added content everything was more spread out and seemed empty.
Except for Brit bank, after the world split you got hit by a big lag spike when walking into town because there was about 3000 banksitters standing around doing nothing taking up bandwidth.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Well after the release of Trammel there was actually less land even though they doubled land. On top of that at Trammel release they added new code where you could only place 1 house per account instead of 1 house per character as was previous to that. Additionally if you wanted to place another house you had to give up all your previous houses that were placed.
First, some people here did not play Ultima Online during those days. The fact that there main argument is "But the graphics got old" clearly shows that they are part of the new generation of gamers, who only see graphics as what makes a game. And they sure as hell did not play UO, becouse else, they will have found more & better arguments then "old graphics".
I'm also one of those old people that actually played the game for jesus, how long was it ... 4 years? Bad Graphics my ass. During that era, you had the event of 3d graphics in mmorpgs, and for the most part, they looked horrible compared to the 2d sprits. Sure, sprits are not everything, but they looked way better then the blocky 3d graphics used in most mmorpg's then.
Now, Trammel was a DIRECT reason for me, and others to quit UO. We where not red's, so, why leave when the rules got more easy?
Because it got more EASY! Any person who played UO during that era, knew you did not go to the caves North of Britannia widout a) good hiding skills, b) friends as backup. Yet, in Trammel, people strip mined the place out, moving 250 or more raw ore around using the old lift-trick widout fear of getting cauth with your pants down. You did that in the original plain, you ended up a) dead because you where unable to move ( you needed to store your ore in your backpack & hide. Thus overweight ), b) needed to drop your hard earned ore on the floor, for a quick getaway. Not so in Trammel. No danger, so fear of being attacked, so no reason to move, thus you waited when people moved away.
Same with dungeon crawling. I hardly set foot in most hard dungeons because a quick ambush was lethal there. What did we see in Trammel. Dozen of people camping for the leeches to spawn. On the other plain, that was not possible, because a few quick exploding potions, and a few spells, will have whipped out the entire room.
The entire economy collapsed. The lands doubled, yet, the lands where filled with houses faster then you can say "stop". Money became easy. The gameplay became easy. There was no more challenge. And slowly, you noticed people's attitude to change. Why group anymore, when there is no real danger out there anymore? The necessity for grouping was gone. Social contacts started to falter.
UO became BORING. And that was not the fault of a old game or anything like that. But the sudden change of the gaming rules turning a challenging but rewarding game, in the next spawn camping game, with no danger, no rewards.
Why do you think they tried to up the anty so many times with new & exotic things to master, new weapons etc. Because it was so darn easy to gain the "old" power weapons. EA made the game become stuck in a circle of constant upgrading. Don't take my word for it, but my actions.
I tried UO a few years later with the next expansion ( BR? ), hell, i don't even remember the name, so little was to positive effect from it. In a mere 2 weeks, i got more equipment ( inc a house ), then you where able to do in 3 years old style playing ( and that was widout macro's etc, unlike some people ). It was do darn EASY. It was disgusting.
So don't come with that crap of old graphics. What killed UO then, was EA, not the graphics. And to counter any future arguments regarding graphics, they ( EA ) killed the successor of UO also, the departure of the games creator Richard Garriott was a clear reason why the game became like that.
Yes, a major reason for the decline in subscriptions was time. Another was the advent of the next big MMO, Ever Quest. The MAIN reason most people, everyone I knew, quit was because of trammel.
It was not like, "Zomg trammel is for noobs, I'm quitting!!!" It was how the previous poster put it, attitudes changes. The whole community and fun of the game was eliminated. Just because a majority of people chose to take the easy way out and live in trammel unless they wanted to pvp, doesn't mean it didn't ruin the game. Just because I find a copy of an upcoming test and everyone decides to use it doesn't mean the copy of the test didn't ruin the actual test.
Ever Quest was successfull because, for one, it was new and had 3D graphics. A lot of people from UO and new gamers wanted to try something new. Ever Quest, however, was not fun, it was addicting. People didn't realize what they really wanted, they were too focused on getting to level 60 and getting that leet gear.
Trammel perverted an excellent game design and I, for one, cannot wait until a risky development team decides to create another, similar concept of FFA PvP.
For the record I definately agree with the previous poster that graphics wasn't the downfall of UO. Also, the only reason OLD games decline is because players get bored with them and move on to different games. If the game stays fun, then they will remain loyal for the most part. Since trammel made the game boring for the loyal UO crowd (whether they chose to play in trammel or not, it still made the game more boring for them), that opened the gate for subscribers to switch games to something new. Therefore, being old and the advent of trammel go hand in hand in the decline of UO, the greatest MMO of all time.
Originally posted by kpatterson12 I don't think Trammel made the game boring. I think lack of events made it boring
Lack of events? The game itself was one big event. You can't say that Trammel dident make the game boring? You actually used to run for life from reds all the time ( ok, not all the time ). From what did you run on Trammel? NPC's? lol... And with the inclusion of the no-loot option to your body ( think it was after trammel? Don't remember for sure ), you where able to die widout any worry in the world from npc's ...
In my 3 years, i only did one event. Sure, it was fun, but to be honest, i had the same amount of fun ( and more ) exploring the dangerous world itself. The event felt to much like a ... well, fixed path.
After UO, i have yet to find any MMORPG that gave me the same feeling of fun & excitement as the old UO did. And i tried ... 2 mmorpgs, 5 beta's ... max was one month in a full mmorpg, and 6 months in a beta ( the canceled wish. Pity, but it was going in the direction as any other mmorpg ( making it easy on the player ), instead of staying true to there UO ideals like the developers focused on at first ).
Hell, i even developed in a UO emulator ( POL if i remember ) at the time, and rebuild Britannia for a shard ( 2 months of hard work, with some days of 12 a 16h working on it ), only to see the project main coordinator closing the project, and not releasing the map file ... fucking bastard ( he just took of with the map, 9/10 changes he released it under his own name while he did 0% work ) ... I learned my lesson that day regarding helping people on any projects. Take my advice, if somebody asks you for help on a free project, say no ( unless you have access to all the source & input for the project ).
Originally posted by kpatterson12 I don't think Trammel made the game boring. I think lack of events made it boring
Events were not needed when the gameplay was the event.
Players were the citizens, heros and vilians. Scripted monsters, NPCs, events and new content were only side notes.
What Trammel effectively did over time was shift the game from one of exciting multiplayer competition that kept all players on their toes, competing and interested in playing the game into a more solo player game necessitating constant updates, new content, events, and new expansions to keep players interested.
It was not very well designed at all - in fact, the whole Trammel expansion was just a copy of existing lands!
Originally posted by Dreadkin Too many posts to read them all.
Yes, a major reason for the decline in subscriptions was time. Another was the advent of the next big MMO, Ever Quest. The MAIN reason most people, everyone I knew, quit was because of trammel.
This statement is incorrect. After trammel's release, UO had a sharp INCREASE in customers not decrease. This is despite the fact that some whiner pk/gankers quit, still UO increased heavily. UO actually didnt start to lose customers until DAOC was released. This is despite the fact that Lineage, EQ, and AC were all released. Coincidently the same exact time UO decreased customers was when AC also lost customers for the first time, which was DAOC release.
It was not like, "Zomg trammel is for noobs, I'm quitting!!!" It was how the previous poster put it, attitudes changes. The whole community and fun of the game was eliminated. Just because a majority of people chose to take the easy way out and live in trammel unless they wanted to pvp, doesn't mean it didn't ruin the game. Just because I find a copy of an upcoming test and everyone decides to use it doesn't mean the copy of the test didn't ruin the actual test.
So you are trying to say the people who were quiting UO were the PVE'ers because they thought it was boring? So all the PVPer's converted to PVE trammelites? LOL this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Then in the next breath you say the PvPers went to EQ? You do realise that EQ didnt even have PVP. So you are trying to lead us to believe all these PVP'ers either converted to trammelites or went to EQ?
In the real world what happened was, PK/gankers moved to Lineage and AC. But despite this UO still gained in popularity because the PVE'ers came in droves. But after UO was in its 4th year of release DAOC was released and it took a large chunk of alot of games player bases. UO slowly lost customer until AOS was released, then UO had a new high of customers, but a year after it started losing customers again, and has slowly since.
Trammel perverted an excellent game design and I, for one, cannot wait until a risky development team decides to create another, similar concept of FFA PvP.
Only people that want FFA pvp are gankers. Since only gankers like playing games where ganking is allowed, FFA PVP games will always have low customer bases.
Also if you look at the charts, before trammel, EQ was getting huge player subscriptions, and UO was barely gaining people. After trammel released, EQ leveled off and UO had its biggest increase in customers ever. Coincidence? I think not.
If you want ganking PVP, maybe try shadowbane? I hear thats doing real well.
This statement is incorrect. After trammel's release, UO had a sharp INCREASE in customers not decrease. This is despite the fact that some whiner pk/gankers quit, still UO increased heavily. UO actually didnt start to lose customers until DAOC was released. This is despite the fact that Lineage, EQ, and AC were all released. Coincidently the same exact time UO decreased customers was when AC also lost customers for the first time, which was DAOC release.
This does nothing to show that over time trammel did not made the game, overall, more boring for everyone, even if some people liked the idea of a safe world at first. So you are trying to say the people who were quiting UO were the PVE'ers because they thought it was boring? So all the PVPer's converted to PVE trammelites? LOL this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Then in the next breath you say the PvPers went to EQ? You do realise that EQ didnt even have PVP. So you are trying to lead us to believe all these PVP'ers either converted to trammelites or went to EQ?
In the real world what happened was, PK/gankers moved to Lineage and AC. But despite this UO still gained in popularity because the PVE'ers came in droves. But after UO was in its 4th year of release DAOC was released and it took a large chunk of alot of games player bases. UO slowly lost customer until AOS was released, then UO had a new high of customers, but a year after it started losing customers again, and has slowly since.
Once again, yes, I am saying even PvEers left EVENTUALLY (not right away) even though they thought they liked the idea of trammel at first. Trammel hurt PvP because AFTER TRAMMEL the only people in feluccia were gankers / PKers. I, for one, was a PvEer who loved the possibility of havng to fight for my life in a dungeon. I never PvP'd. SO, when trammel came out and feluccia dungeons filled with ONLY Pkers, it made it near impossible to PvE effectively in feluccia. At least when it was only feluccia there were others around who were just trying to PvE as well wh could jump in and help.
You say the "PvEers came in groves" to UO. That is kind of my point. They came...and after a while of realizing UO is terrible without ffa PvP, they left for better Pvp games or better Pve games. It was not some instant thing, like I said before.
Only people that want FFA pvp are gankers. Since only gankers like playing games where ganking is allowed, FFA PVP games will always have low customer bases.
Also if you look at the charts, before trammel, EQ was getting huge player subscriptions, and UO was barely gaining people. After trammel released, EQ leveled off and UO had its biggest increase in customers ever. Coincidence? I think not.
If you want ganking PVP, maybe try shadowbane? I hear thats doing real well.
This is just a flat wrong and ignorant statement. Your logic is comepletely flawed. Only gankers want ffa pvp? That is just ludicrous, I wasn't a ganker (barely even PvP'd), but I wanted ffa PvP, and I'll bet there are plently of old time UO players that will agree with me. It's not the being able to gank noobs thats fun, its the thrill of the possibility of being attacked, of having to run through a dungeon with a red chasing you. If you died...so what? You lose an easily replaceable set of armor and some reagents maybe. Come back with some friends and hunt that PKer down. There were also many anti-PK (I assume when you say "ganker" you mean PKer?) guilds and such thats sole purpose was to hunt down PKers, I assume they like FFA PvP.
I'd like to know if you even played pre-trammel UO, or if your just looking at some chart? Because, every single person pre-trammel I;ve ever known thought trammel ruined the psychology of the game and, over time, destroyed the best part of UO. My little thing about EQ was simply to try to explain the carebear attitude most MMO players have since trammel. I blame EQ, maybe I'm wrong, but yeah it had no PvP and people loved it. EQ wasn't, as many will agree, fun, it was just addicting. Fun was what UO was pre-trammel and fun is what I look for in a game, not some endless grind to get the best gear, which is only used to fight harder stuff and get more gear.
I assume you won't agree with what I have to say, but I think most old time UO players will agree that trammel was the ultimate downfall of UO.
You say the "PvEers came in groves" to UO. That is kind of my point. They came...and after a while of realizing UO is terrible without ffa PvP, they left for better Pvp games or better Pve games. It was not some instant thing, like I said before. PVEers came in groves not PVPers. Them leaving over time is true of all MMO's. However UO has been one of the most consistent games to retain thier player bases of any MMO made. I cant even see on the charts a game that retained its player base over time more effectively as a percentage. So why are all the other games dieing off so quickly? They all added trammels? What you dont realize is trammel actually held on to the player base. Which is exactly why not only did UO gain subs after its release. But it has kept its player base over time, in fact 3 years after trammels release and 6 years after UO's release it gained a NEW HIGH in subs. Show me another game that has happened to. In fact 10 years later UO has almost as many subs currently now as pretrammel. You point is obviously unresearched and completely wrong. Also if you look at similiar FFA style games like AC. Where is that now? DEAD, how can you explain that. UO saved thier game with trammel PERIOD. This is just a flat wrong and ignorant statement. Your logic is comepletely flawed. Only gankers want ffa pvp? That is just ludicrous, I wasn't a ganker (barely even PvP'd), but I wanted ffa PvP, and I'll bet there are plently of old time UO players that will agree with me. It's not the being able to gank noobs thats fun, its the thrill of the possibility of being attacked, of having to run through a dungeon with a red chasing you. If you died...so what? You lose an easily replaceable set of armor and some reagents maybe. Come back with some friends and hunt that PKer down. There were also many anti-PK (I assume when you say "ganker" you mean PKer?) guilds and such thats sole purpose was to hunt down PKers, I assume they like FFA PvP. When I say ganker I actually am also refering to Griefers. Which the world was running rampant with. Which is why it trammel is necessary. Trammel didnt prevent PVP. You could go to felucca and still pvp. You could still go dungeon crawling or whatever and risk your equipment. Even now if you want risk you can run around with your best equipment without insurance. Funny how all the PVPers dont do that however. If you go all the way back to day 1 of this game you will see the ganking/griefing. People killing people with animals, stealing kills. Stealing house keys, and taking the entire house and its contents. I had a red for awhile, and when I gated my other red friends in, what all the blues would do is run, the few that would fight would all die. There was no risk, we came with pvp weapons and timing. Would go from room to room killing people as they fleed. Low risk, high reward. There was no PK hunting. Thats an absolute joke. If some blues came, we would be long gone raiding another dungeon. On the very few occasions I stuck around to see, I could just recall out if things got hectic. You are just remembering some fantasy, that was not existent. How can you hunt reds when they can gate, recall or just go into thier house and ban you? Even if you caught and killed an afk / lagged red. What would you get a GM weapon, 10 of each reagent? Yet I would get vanqs and other magic armor all the time off the pve'ers. I'd like to know if you even played pre-trammel UO, or if your just looking at some chart? Because, every single person pre-trammel I;ve ever known thought trammel ruined the psychology of the game and, over time, destroyed the best part of UO. Every single person you know? You are kidding right? First off I was here long before trammel, and long after trammel. I am actually a PVPer and participated in pvp alot. I was also involved in Factions after trammel, and joined DAOC for 3 years with almost nothing but pvp. The main reason for having a red guy was because of all the blue healers that would heal thier grey friend so they wouldnt take a murder. 99% of the reds/pvpers used to hang right outside all the newb towns. Coincidence? Ya right, they were there because all they wanted to do was kill newbs. Easy prey. Blues 7x gm wouldnt attack me or anyone else unless I attacked them first. And usually they would just run. If you really wanted PVE thrill why didnt those players just go on SP shard? There is a perfectly good reason why. Because the people that were quiting only wanted to kill easy newb prey. SP was a difficult PVP oriented shard and they didnt want hard core pvp. When trammel was released the newbs went to trammel, eliminating easy prey. Even the miners went over there even thou 2x ore on felluca side. The main reason is people couldnt stand the gankers/griefers. If people wanted thrills of pvp why not just join chaos / order? Again not easy griefer prey. Along with all of that was the naked thiefs stealing in town where you couldnt do a damn thing about it. Im sorry man but the game you imagine didnt exist.
Well, I'm at least glad it existed for me. Half the fun was the adreneline pumping. I will admit, the game would have been much better without recall though. Also, you seem to know what you're talking about, but you WERE the griefer / ganker...so your opinion is probably as biased as my PvE one. Even after trammel the PvP in UO was still one of the best because it was SKILL based...which is really what I look for, which is also why subscriptions remained steady. Games like WOW where better gear is all you need to win are pointless in my opinion. Keep in mind, I'm not saying trammel lowered subscriptions overall or anything, I'm saying it ruined the game's mentality and did cause a lot of long time subscribers to leave. Also the fact that all the house locations on trammel filled up in about an hour when every single person on the server logged on at once to put their castle down. That pissed me off almost as much as trammel. But either way, I think I'm done with this argument. Suffice to say, I just hope darkfall turns out how I hope it does so I can get a new-age FFA PvP Skill based RPG.
Originally posted by Dreadkin Well, I'm at least glad it existed for me. Half the fun was the adreneline pumping...
Me too, so far in over nine years no MMOG has matched the experience of the original UO MMOG prior to the Renaissance / Trammel expansion. Hopefully Roma Victor will take that experience to a new level, but as of now the game has only been out a few months and has a low population, I am patient though - especially with no monthly fee.
But, that was one of the greatest things about Ultima Online in 1999, after two years of growth it had a decent population, but best of all, in a time before seperate servers for seperate playstyles, that population included all types of diverse players in one world, something that will likely never be repeated again to that degree. Roma Victor has a single server like Eve, but I don't think the game will attract many carebears, it's mostly for veteran or hardcore crafters, roleplayers and PvP types. Carebears would get frustrated in such a game within a matter of hours. The thing is, virtual worlds are not the same without carebears and everyone in between; as initially strange as that may seem.
For a virtual world to be well-implemented, it must be fairly virtual.
UO was my first MMO, and I loved it, at first. I got driven out by the FFA PvP and bugs. Consensual PvP is fine, but it was annoying to have places overrun with wild gangs.
I also tend to think the ganking/griefer mentality the old open UO had also attracted the exploiters. I quit when my house and boat got stolen on the same day.
If Trammel had been there from the beginning I think UO might have held its attraction for more people longer than it did.
UO has been a consensual Trammel game for 7 years now and it has gone nowhere. The only time it had steady growth was for the two years it was non-consensual.
I'd say it's growth was highest when it first came out, before the gankers/griefers discovered it, and if it had been consensual earlier it wouldn't have lost so many people.
People that prefer non-consensual still have that in UO... if people really liked that that side would be more populated than the consensual side. It's really primarily the gankers/griefers that like non-consensual.
Originally posted by Cerene I'd say it's growth was highest when it first came out, before the gankers/griefers discovered it, and if it had been consensual earlier it wouldn't have lost so many people.
People that prefer non-consensual still have that in UO... if people really liked that that side would be more populated than the consensual side. It's really primarily the gankers/griefers that like non-consensual.
I liked my UO non-consensual. I never got red, I never went notoPK (exploiters of the flaws in the noto system, for those that didn´t play back then), I never killed a miner or a newb...no griefer, no ganker, not even PK..I only attacked reds, IF theyattacked me or anyone in my presence and I did kill blue exploiters (kill-stealers, ppl that ran into my firewall or blade spirit to get me gray etc). That was it. I left with trammel, came back. left again, joined briefly after AoS, puked and went away. So much about me.
Now, isn´t the fact that we are still debating about a 6 year old patch indicating that there was something terribly wrong with it ?
Sure, it is the tip of the iceberg, sure, at first everyone was excited about it. But why ? Because it gave us new land to build. Anyone there on patch day ? Anyone around the castle plots ? It was pathetic. Every guild in the game, RP, pvp, casual, wanted to build a castle or atleast a "city" or "village"...that was what trammel was about....from there on it just got boring. The guild IRC channels got full of ppl crafing/gathering AFK on macro-mode, the popular banks became hell, economy went straight down the toilet and fel became real gankerland, something the original game never was. Why ? Because in the original game you got 5 of your buddies with you when you went out hunting, so the PKs had to REALLY bring it on, or go play somewhere else. After the patch I felt lucky when I got one or two ppl together for a fel hunt. Pathetic.
But whatever, that´s history, now RL grind took over and there´s no goldseller out there willing to do me a discount, so take care and pray for someone to produce a game like UO used to be.
Comments
Six months after Trammel was released, the game had only grown by 15,000 subscriptions, which is nearly insignificant considering the game had already grown to 185,000 subscriptions without Trammel.
So yes, it did continue to grow at reduced rate and for a short while after Trammel, but how much of that was due to the success and recognition from the previous couple of years? Shortly after that Ultima Online stopped growing and on average it flatlined during the rest of it's existance and then even began gonig downhill after Age of Shadows.
EA removed the game from UO.
You're right, Trammel did not scare people away overnight, but what it did do is significantly alter the overall gameplay and competitiveness of the game forever, which over time has proven to do nothing for the game growth wise - just as the graph shows. Of course there are many factors, but quite simply, it is a fact that shortly after Trammel was released, Ultima Online stopped growing.
Six months after Trammel was released, the game had only grown by 15,000 subscriptions, which is nearly insignificant considering the game had already grown to 185,000 subscriptions without Trammel.
So yes, it did continue to grow at reduced rate and for a short while after Trammel, but how much of that was due to the success and recognition from the previous couple of years? Shortly after that Ultima Online stopped growing and on average it flatlined during the rest of it's existance and then even began gonig downhill after Age of Shadows.
EA removed the game from UO.
EA and Richard Garriott clashed game big time over the game. If EA would have let Richard continue as he had been doing things would have been fine.
You're right, Trammel did not scare people away overnight, but what it did do is significantly alter the overall gameplay and competitiveness of the game forever, which over time has proven to do nothing for the game growth wise - just as the graph shows. Of course there are many factors, but quite simply, it is a fact that shortly after Trammel was released, Ultima Online stopped growing.
Well you are just trying to fit facts into your theory that dont exist. You can look at the chart on mmorpgchart.com and see the numbers for yourself. There is not a single game that doesnt have some drop in subs after 4yrs. In addition the PK's were leaving UO before the release of trammel when they heard the new expansion was coming. Also the game and continued to see increased subs fully 1 year after its release.
So even with all the PK's cried, moaned and quit 6 months prior thru after its release, still the game was increasing its subs.
The easy deduction to be made is that if the game was released with Trammel in the start, how much more popular would it have been. You can see how popular EQ was. It was the griefer/pks that killed UO along with its age.
Since the world doubled in size plus added content everything was more spread out and seemed empty.
Except for Brit bank, after the world split you got hit by a big lag spike when walking into town because there was about 3000 banksitters standing around doing nothing taking up bandwidth.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I hated that new rule. Each character should have at least one house and not have to worry as to whether it's grandfathered or whatever.
First, some people here did not play Ultima Online during those days. The fact that there main argument is "But the graphics got old" clearly shows that they are part of the new generation of gamers, who only see graphics as what makes a game. And they sure as hell did not play UO, becouse else, they will have found more & better arguments then "old graphics".
I'm also one of those old people that actually played the game for jesus, how long was it ... 4 years? Bad Graphics my ass. During that era, you had the event of 3d graphics in mmorpgs, and for the most part, they looked horrible compared to the 2d sprits. Sure, sprits are not everything, but they looked way better then the blocky 3d graphics used in most mmorpg's then.
Now, Trammel was a DIRECT reason for me, and others to quit UO. We where not red's, so, why leave when the rules got more easy?
Because it got more EASY! Any person who played UO during that era, knew you did not go to the caves North of Britannia widout a) good hiding skills, b) friends as backup. Yet, in Trammel, people strip mined the place out, moving 250 or more raw ore around using the old lift-trick widout fear of getting cauth with your pants down. You did that in the original plain, you ended up a) dead because you where unable to move ( you needed to store your ore in your backpack & hide. Thus overweight ), b) needed to drop your hard earned ore on the floor, for a quick getaway. Not so in Trammel. No danger, so fear of being attacked, so no reason to move, thus you waited when people moved away.
Same with dungeon crawling. I hardly set foot in most hard dungeons because a quick ambush was lethal there. What did we see in Trammel. Dozen of people camping for the leeches to spawn. On the other plain, that was not possible, because a few quick exploding potions, and a few spells, will have whipped out the entire room.
The entire economy collapsed. The lands doubled, yet, the lands where filled with houses faster then you can say "stop". Money became easy. The gameplay became easy. There was no more challenge. And slowly, you noticed people's attitude to change. Why group anymore, when there is no real danger out there anymore? The necessity for grouping was gone. Social contacts started to falter.
UO became BORING. And that was not the fault of a old game or anything like that. But the sudden change of the gaming rules turning a challenging but rewarding game, in the next spawn camping game, with no danger, no rewards.
Why do you think they tried to up the anty so many times with new & exotic things to master, new weapons etc. Because it was so darn easy to gain the "old" power weapons. EA made the game become stuck in a circle of constant upgrading. Don't take my word for it, but my actions.
I tried UO a few years later with the next expansion ( BR? ), hell, i don't even remember the name, so little was to positive effect from it. In a mere 2 weeks, i got more equipment ( inc a house ), then you where able to do in 3 years old style playing ( and that was widout macro's etc, unlike some people ). It was do darn EASY. It was disgusting.
So don't come with that crap of old graphics. What killed UO then, was EA, not the graphics. And to counter any future arguments regarding graphics, they ( EA ) killed the successor of UO also, the departure of the games creator Richard Garriott was a clear reason why the game became like that.
Yes, a major reason for the decline in subscriptions was time. Another was the advent of the next big MMO, Ever Quest. The MAIN reason most people, everyone I knew, quit was because of trammel.
It was not like, "Zomg trammel is for noobs, I'm quitting!!!" It was how the previous poster put it, attitudes changes. The whole community and fun of the game was eliminated. Just because a majority of people chose to take the easy way out and live in trammel unless they wanted to pvp, doesn't mean it didn't ruin the game. Just because I find a copy of an upcoming test and everyone decides to use it doesn't mean the copy of the test didn't ruin the actual test.
Ever Quest was successfull because, for one, it was new and had 3D graphics. A lot of people from UO and new gamers wanted to try something new. Ever Quest, however, was not fun, it was addicting. People didn't realize what they really wanted, they were too focused on getting to level 60 and getting that leet gear.
Trammel perverted an excellent game design and I, for one, cannot wait until a risky development team decides to create another, similar concept of FFA PvP.
For the record I definately agree with the previous poster that graphics wasn't the downfall of UO. Also, the only reason OLD games decline is because players get bored with them and move on to different games. If the game stays fun, then they will remain loyal for the most part. Since trammel made the game boring for the loyal UO crowd (whether they chose to play in trammel or not, it still made the game more boring for them), that opened the gate for subscribers to switch games to something new. Therefore, being old and the advent of trammel go hand in hand in the decline of UO, the greatest MMO of all time.
Lack of events? The game itself was one big event. You can't say that Trammel dident make the game boring? You actually used to run for life from reds all the time ( ok, not all the time ). From what did you run on Trammel? NPC's? lol... And with the inclusion of the no-loot option to your body ( think it was after trammel? Don't remember for sure ), you where able to die widout any worry in the world from npc's ...
In my 3 years, i only did one event. Sure, it was fun, but to be honest, i had the same amount of fun ( and more ) exploring the dangerous world itself. The event felt to much like a ... well, fixed path.
After UO, i have yet to find any MMORPG that gave me the same feeling of fun & excitement as the old UO did. And i tried ... 2 mmorpgs, 5 beta's ... max was one month in a full mmorpg, and 6 months in a beta ( the canceled wish. Pity, but it was going in the direction as any other mmorpg ( making it easy on the player ), instead of staying true to there UO ideals like the developers focused on at first ).
Hell, i even developed in a UO emulator ( POL if i remember ) at the time, and rebuild Britannia for a shard ( 2 months of hard work, with some days of 12 a 16h working on it ), only to see the project main coordinator closing the project, and not releasing the map file ... fucking bastard ( he just took of with the map, 9/10 changes he released it under his own name while he did 0% work ) ... I learned my lesson that day regarding helping people on any projects. Take my advice, if somebody asks you for help on a free project, say no ( unless you have access to all the source & input for the project ).
Events were not needed when the gameplay was the event.
Players were the citizens, heros and vilians. Scripted monsters, NPCs, events and new content were only side notes.
What Trammel effectively did over time was shift the game from one of exciting multiplayer competition that kept all players on their toes, competing and interested in playing the game into a more solo player game necessitating constant updates, new content, events, and new expansions to keep players interested.
It was not very well designed at all - in fact, the whole Trammel expansion was just a copy of existing lands!
This statement is incorrect. After trammel's release, UO had a sharp INCREASE in customers not decrease. This is despite the fact that some whiner pk/gankers quit, still UO increased heavily. UO actually didnt start to lose customers until DAOC was released. This is despite the fact that Lineage, EQ, and AC were all released. Coincidently the same exact time UO decreased customers was when AC also lost customers for the first time, which was DAOC release.
This does nothing to show that over time trammel did not made the game, overall, more boring for everyone, even if some people liked the idea of a safe world at first.
So you are trying to say the people who were quiting UO were the PVE'ers because they thought it was boring? So all the PVPer's converted to PVE trammelites? LOL this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Then in the next breath you say the PvPers went to EQ? You do realise that EQ didnt even have PVP. So you are trying to lead us to believe all these PVP'ers either converted to trammelites or went to EQ?
In the real world what happened was, PK/gankers moved to Lineage and AC. But despite this UO still gained in popularity because the PVE'ers came in droves. But after UO was in its 4th year of release DAOC was released and it took a large chunk of alot of games player bases. UO slowly lost customer until AOS was released, then UO had a new high of customers, but a year after it started losing customers again, and has slowly since.
Once again, yes, I am saying even PvEers left EVENTUALLY (not right away) even though they thought they liked the idea of trammel at first. Trammel hurt PvP because AFTER TRAMMEL the only people in feluccia were gankers / PKers. I, for one, was a PvEer who loved the possibility of havng to fight for my life in a dungeon. I never PvP'd. SO, when trammel came out and feluccia dungeons filled with ONLY Pkers, it made it near impossible to PvE effectively in feluccia. At least when it was only feluccia there were others around who were just trying to PvE as well wh could jump in and help.
You say the "PvEers came in groves" to UO. That is kind of my point. They came...and after a while of realizing UO is terrible without ffa PvP, they left for better Pvp games or better Pve games. It was not some instant thing, like I said before.
Only people that want FFA pvp are gankers. Since only gankers like playing games where ganking is allowed, FFA PVP games will always have low customer bases.
Also if you look at the charts, before trammel, EQ was getting huge player subscriptions, and UO was barely gaining people. After trammel released, EQ leveled off and UO had its biggest increase in customers ever. Coincidence? I think not.
If you want ganking PVP, maybe try shadowbane? I hear thats doing real well.
This is just a flat wrong and ignorant statement. Your logic is comepletely flawed. Only gankers want ffa pvp? That is just ludicrous, I wasn't a ganker (barely even PvP'd), but I wanted ffa PvP, and I'll bet there are plently of old time UO players that will agree with me. It's not the being able to gank noobs thats fun, its the thrill of the possibility of being attacked, of having to run through a dungeon with a red chasing you. If you died...so what? You lose an easily replaceable set of armor and some reagents maybe. Come back with some friends and hunt that PKer down. There were also many anti-PK (I assume when you say "ganker" you mean PKer?) guilds and such thats sole purpose was to hunt down PKers, I assume they like FFA PvP.
I'd like to know if you even played pre-trammel UO, or if your just looking at some chart? Because, every single person pre-trammel I;ve ever known thought trammel ruined the psychology of the game and, over time, destroyed the best part of UO. My little thing about EQ was simply to try to explain the carebear attitude most MMO players have since trammel. I blame EQ, maybe I'm wrong, but yeah it had no PvP and people loved it. EQ wasn't, as many will agree, fun, it was just addicting. Fun was what UO was pre-trammel and fun is what I look for in a game, not some endless grind to get the best gear, which is only used to fight harder stuff and get more gear.
I assume you won't agree with what I have to say, but I think most old time UO players will agree that trammel was the ultimate downfall of UO.Cheers.
Me too, so far in over nine years no MMOG has matched the experience of the original UO MMOG prior to the Renaissance / Trammel expansion. Hopefully Roma Victor will take that experience to a new level, but as of now the game has only been out a few months and has a low population, I am patient though - especially with no monthly fee.
But, that was one of the greatest things about Ultima Online in 1999, after two years of growth it had a decent population, but best of all, in a time before seperate servers for seperate playstyles, that population included all types of diverse players in one world, something that will likely never be repeated again to that degree. Roma Victor has a single server like Eve, but I don't think the game will attract many carebears, it's mostly for veteran or hardcore crafters, roleplayers and PvP types. Carebears would get frustrated in such a game within a matter of hours. The thing is, virtual worlds are not the same without carebears and everyone in between; as initially strange as that may seem.
For a virtual world to be well-implemented, it must be fairly virtual.
UO was my first MMO, and I loved it, at first. I got driven out by the FFA PvP and bugs. Consensual PvP is fine, but it was annoying to have places overrun with wild gangs.
I also tend to think the ganking/griefer mentality the old open UO had also attracted the exploiters. I quit when my house and boat got stolen on the same day.
If Trammel had been there from the beginning I think UO might have held its attraction for more people longer than it did.
I'd say it's growth was highest when it first came out, before the gankers/griefers discovered it, and if it had been consensual earlier it wouldn't have lost so many people.
People that prefer non-consensual still have that in UO... if people really liked that that side would be more populated than the consensual side. It's really primarily the gankers/griefers that like non-consensual.
I liked my UO non-consensual. I never got red, I never went notoPK (exploiters of the flaws in the noto system, for those that didn´t play back then), I never killed a miner or a newb...no griefer, no ganker, not even PK..I only attacked reds, IF theyattacked me or anyone in my presence and I did kill blue exploiters (kill-stealers, ppl that ran into my firewall or blade spirit to get me gray etc). That was it.
I left with trammel, came back. left again, joined briefly after AoS, puked and went away. So much about me.
Now, isn´t the fact that we are still debating about a 6 year old patch indicating that there was something terribly wrong with it ?
Sure, it is the tip of the iceberg, sure, at first everyone was excited about it. But why ? Because it gave us new land to build. Anyone there on patch day ? Anyone around the castle plots ? It was pathetic. Every guild in the game, RP, pvp, casual, wanted to build a castle or atleast a "city" or "village"...that was what trammel was about....from there on it just got boring. The guild IRC channels got full of ppl crafing/gathering AFK on macro-mode, the popular banks became hell, economy went straight down the toilet and fel became real gankerland, something the original game never was. Why ? Because in the original game you got 5 of your buddies with you when you went out hunting, so the PKs had to REALLY bring it on, or go play somewhere else.
After the patch I felt lucky when I got one or two ppl together for a fel hunt. Pathetic.
But whatever, that´s history, now RL grind took over and there´s no goldseller out there willing to do me a discount, so take care and pray for someone to produce a game like UO used to be.